What is on his vest

[Annette Bethke]

Can anyone tell me what it on the top of this man's vest at the bottom of the collar?

[Stonewall_Greyfox]

Annete,

While I haven't seen this item on vest before, I have seen it on some uniform coats (VMI Cadet coatees) prior to the ACW. This item would be attached to buttons at the top of the garmet which would be left open at the bottom. I have not been able to find a name for this item or the practice of this.

Paul B. Boulden Jr.

RAH VA MIL '04
23rd VA Regt.

[Matthew Semple]

I have also been wondering for the past few years what this fabric button closure device is called.

I have seen one other period photograph that shows a vest with it. The gentleman was wearing the vest open with the button closure device fastened to a button on either side just below the collar.

Attached is an image of one of these fabric button closure devices from my collection. I acquired it about six years ago. It came in the pocket of a United States Navy Captain's Bridge Officer's Coat (circa 1890s). This piece is not of the same vintage as the coat and is much older. The fabric is a finely woven blue wool broadcloth with a cotton interlining. It is entirely hand sewn with a bluish-brown 2 ply cotton thread (whereas the Bridge Officer's Coat is entirely machine sewn with a black 3 ply cotton thread).

[Annette Bethke]

Thank you for your responses. I really wish we could find out exactly what it was used for.

[Johnny Lloyd]

Ma'am-

It looks like a false collar that buttons over to hold-together the opening so a tie can be fastened and draped over the piece. Notice the absence of a necktie... I know of a friend's modern shirt that has a banded collar that does this so you can wear a cravat with it for a tuxedo.

;) -Johnny

[Joe Walker]

I have seen these on civilian coats to partially close the garment, showing the vest, etc. This is first one I have seen on a vest. I have heard of some on military jackets, but I have not seen them personally. If you have access to Frassanito's book on Antietam (phographic then and now views of the battle) you will see a nice large photo of Thomas Rushin wearing a civilian coat closed this way.

Joe Walker
Waco Guards

[Bushrod Carter]

Annette,

Here is what that "thingy" is used for. I actually have used this same image in the Masonic Material Culture thread. Although worn by a Mason, this little collar device isn't Masonic...it was just a fasion for men's clothing of the period.

[K. Krewer]

I've also seen these on children's jackets, and have one such.

[Annette Bethke]

Heehee, it seems like something for gentlemen who have outgrown their vest, then :). Thanks for the photo showing it's use. I guess they weren't all that common; I've not seen many images with these devices. If also used for kids, would it seem feasible then that the item was used to close an item of clothes that may not fit properly?

[Deborah Hyland]

I've seen similar closures on men's sweaters of the period.

[Joe Walker]

I will speculate (I hate to say) that no, it wasn't due to outgrowing the coat or vest, but a way to show off the shirt or vest without the coat opening widely, especially when they were walking or riding. I have seen one reenactor make one for his jacket, not due to size problems, to show his vest. I will say however, it would work on old fat guys like me trying to get into the jacket I made 20 years ago.

Joe Walker
Waco Guards

[Stonewall_Greyfox]

While searching the VMI Archives I came across another example of this closure device. It is being used on the close fitting blue frocks that saw use in the 1850s (I am guessing that this device is being used for the wearers comfort).

Cadet Francis M. Boykin VMI '1856 is seated to the left...the other cadets are not identified.

[Ross L. Lamoreaux]

Having seen several pre-CW images with this device, I would venture that it wasn't for ill-fitting garments, but properly fitted garments. Remember that at that time, the vest and many men's jackets and coats were designed to be form fitting, partucularly those of the 1830'early 50's, but the vest continued to be a close fitting garment for the average gentlemen. As all the images that I've seen with this tabbed closure, they were all taken while the subject was seated. Would not one use for this tab be to keep a garment closed but be more comfortable for the wearer such as at meal time and the like? The body tends to expand at the chest and waist when seated.

[Stonewall_Greyfox]

Ross,

I agree that this would not be an item used for ill/improper fitting garmets but for "close fitting" vest, coats...etc.

Note my comment:

"It is being used on the close fitting blue frocks that saw use in the 1850s (I am guessing that this device is being used for the wearers comfort)."

[The Knittin' Kitten]

There is something called a "coat tab", but I don't know if this is the same thing.

I wonder if Victorian modesty holds the key to its use. (After all, it was the Victorians who placed the extra shirtsleeve button between the cuff and the elbow, so the arm wouldn't peek out.) It's possible that then, as now, a man might unbutton his coat or waistcoat whilst seated (for comfort, as stated above). Or maybe in weather too hot to be all buttoned up. Well, he couldn't just expose his shirt front in public, could he?

All that having been said, I'm leaning toward the "purely for fashion" theory.

[albrandon]

Just a thought, but I doubt that these button tabs were used for ill-fitted clothing due to the fact that, when a person of the era had his tintype, daguerrotype, ambrotype, etc. made, he tended to wear the very best of his clothing. I have seen only a few photos contrary to this rule, and I would argue that the majority of people would not wear clothing that they had outgrown for such occasions. Because there are so many button tabs apparent in period photos, I doubt that this would be a likely explanation. ;)

Amber L. Brandon

[sgt sidd]

I have an idea what it might be used for , it may be used to add a little color to the mans coat ,vest when he has on a plane shirt, like a white shirt. You could say a accent peace for the tie or what he has on. Robert S Lanier

[rick35ovi]

This image just came up for sale with another one of those funny things!
http://www.shopgoodwill.com/viewitem.asp?ItemID=3020281

[sgt sidd]

Hello again , The idea of cloths fitting tight is right for some, but those that worked back then, like carpenters, and others of the working class they had loose fitting cloths, why with a fitted coat and pants and such, you can not do the job at hand , too much bending and such. The ones with fitted cloths are the ones with money so the more money the more fitted cloths you have, which means they do not do that much of the physical jobs as the others. Cloths coast money today as back then, so they are going to make them last as long as they can. They also went with fashion . Thank you Robert S Lanier

[Watchdog]

I believe that it is called a tibi--a fastening device seen on men's coats and vests.

[billwatson]

Pat Craddock may be able to shed practical, hands-on light on this, but the thought crossed my mind that what the device may actually be doing is providing a correct spacing between the edges of the collar for a cravat or necktie to 'seat' properly, and providing a support or foundation to give the necktie the correct vertical position. Sometimes the collar ends on those stand-up collars come so close when the coat is buttoned that they make the necktie look like it is outside the coat rather than on the shirt, if you can picture what I mean. This would cure that. Kind of like the metal backing on those bowties we used to have to wear when I was a kid, the kind that clip to your shirt rather than going around the neck. Same function: Makes the tie ride properly.

Just a thought. I wear neckties in the modern world only to the funerals of high school classmates and have worn an 1860s neckwear arrangement only twice. Hate them all.

[Professor Barclay]

This reminds me of something I've seen before. I've seen a small chain on clothing items that were meant to be open, but could possibly swing open more than desired. I noticed that it seems that most of these are clothes that could be buttoned, but weren't.

Just an observation...

Rick

[Matthew Semple]

I have also been wondering for the past few years what this fabric button closure device is called.

I have seen one other period photograph that shows a vest with it. The gentleman was wearing the vest open with the button closure device fastened to a button on either side just below the collar.

Attached is an image of one of these fabric button closure devices from my collection. I acquired it about six years ago. It came in the pocket of a United States Navy Captain's Bridge Officer's Coat (circa 1890s). This piece is not of the same vintage as the coat and is much older. The fabric is a finely woven blue wool broadcloth with a cotton interlining. It is entirely hand sewn with a bluish-brown 2 ply cotton thread (whereas the Bridge Officer's Coat is entirely machine sewn with a black 3 ply cotton thread).

I am reattaching the image that was originally lost in this post.