unexploded ordinance?

[KyCavMajor]

I got this from one of my Corporals yeaterday....

"I have a very inquisitive five year old grand daughter. While digging in her dad's front yard she came across a very heavy object. She decided it would make a very nice present for grand pa. Dave and I looked it over .... Well the only thing that we're not sure of, is it loaded or not. I'm sending you guys a few pictures that I took of it. Maybe you guys can give us a description of the object. Also is there a way of knowing if it's armed or not. It's in a safe place right now. "

It looks to have a fuse screwed in it to me, :eek:indicating spherical case or shrapnel round! Is this the case or is that a dummy fuse?
Is there anyone that DE-mils these?

I am inquiring where "her dad's front" yard is exactly to try and determine how it might have gotten there in the first place nd notify authorities there may be more unexploded ordinance laying around for inquisitive five year olds to find! Thankfully this five year old gave it to dad. When I was five or ten I have a bad feeling that shell might have ended up in a fire :rolleyes:

[Todd Watts]

Is the a way to attach the picture? I didn't get it if you did attach one. If there is a fuse, it wil be about the size of a quarter on the nose of a conical or just seen on one part of a ball. If this is the case, you must assume it is loaded and LIVE. Black powder never "dies" unless moist, but once it dries out it is exactly as poweful as when new. There was an instant in Columbia, TN back in the 1970s where a round a local man had been using as a door stop suddenly without warning exploded. Luckily, it didn't hurt anyone and the damage was fairly light. My current boss was a cop in Nashville in the 1970 and 1980s. He got a call to visit a house and look at something a kid had found. It was a cannon ball he said, about the size of a grapefruit he descibes (probably a 12 pdr case). He called in bomb disposal who took it to a field and detonated it. It too was live. So be very careful about these dug rounds. The US Navy used to offer a service to drill them out safely and make them inert, but I have heard that they no longer do this. You may contact a bomb disposal police dept and tell them you want to keep it inert and see if they will drill it for you, BUT once they or BATFE hear you posses a live bomb you may lose rights and possession of it.

Just happend to think, you may also call the Nat'l Park Srvc an dsee if they can do soemthing. Off hand, I'd suggest Jim Ogden at Chickamauga Battlefield as the prime guy to ask.

[Danny]

...or is that a dummy fuse?... :rolleyes:

What is a dummy fuse, and what would the purpose be?

If a genuine shell (not a reenactor's display that somehow was buried years ago, which I guess would be a dummy) then that would be a genuine fuse insert, the shell perhaps unexploded and possibly still dangerous.

I wouldn't keep it anywhere around my family until an expert could evaluate it. It would be a shame to see it blown up by the town bomb squad, but you might have to risk losing it (and not the grandaughter) that way.

- Danny

[Jim Mayo]

The round object shown in the one picture posted looks a little like a CS side loader plug but not exactly. I have never seen side loader plugs with the spanner wrench holes and the plugs were made of lead or iron. If there are no other fuses/holes in the ball, my vote would be that ball is a fence weight.

[Light 6 Pdr]

Todd,
The picture looks like the round is CS made side loader case shot. This would include a small powder bursting charge. This is what looks like the side plug in the photo. In Field Artillery Projectiles of the Civil War, there are pictures of the plugs with spanner holes in them like that. Is there another opening? There shoule be a fuse of some kind, either a borman fuse (it will have a large screw driver like slot in the center with numbers in a circle going around the outside edge, 1-5 Seconds) or it should have a fuse with a hole in it. If it has the fuse hole, it is much easier to deal with.
Also, from the picture it looks like this round is over 5" in diameter. Is this so? 12 Pdr shells are 4.52" and 24 Pdrs are 5.68". Do you know which it is? Can you get pictures of the other opening?
I would not do anything rash with it, the police will likely want to immediately destroy it. It is valuable and a piece of history. Maybe contact The horse soldier in Gettysburg, or another large relic dealer, or go to www.cwartillery.com, or is it org? or www.civilwarartillery.com etc. They would know someone that can disarm it safely.
What part of Kentucky are you located in? I am in East Tennessee.

Take care,
Steve Cameron
Burrough's Battery
Trail Rock Ordnance
akm556@aol.com

[KyCavMajor]

The round object shown in the one picture posted looks a little like a CS side loader plug but not exactly. I have never seen side loader plugs with the spanner wrench holes and the plugs were made of lead or iron. If there are no other fuses/holes in the ball, my vote would be that ball is a fence weight.

Jim,
I asked for more pictures, guess what, there is a lead plug opposite the other one.
It was found in Salem IN. directly along Morgan's route through Indiana in July 1863. Doesn't prove anything really, but a possibility. He was carrying Artillery with him and complained about bad confederate Ammunition.

[Chad Teasley]

Sir,

As others have suggested, I would recommend that you definitely ask your Corporal to alert the authorities right away, and certainly NOT touch the device again until it can be interrogated by an EOD unit. If there's a military base in your vicinity, they may be able to send a team to check it out. At the very least, the local PD should have bomb disposal techs who can determine the functionality of the device.

Please let us know how it turns out.

[CeeBeeRebel]

I would suggest getting in touch with this guy or someone like him in order to prevent a piece of history from being lost if it is in fact live.

From an issue of NSTCW:
ARTILLERY SHELLS DISARMED, cleaned and preserved. I also can clean and preserve metal objects. Quick turnaround! Also buying dug relics. Sam White, 14108 Granite Pt. Ct., Chesterfield, VA 23838. (804) 796-9056. samwhiterelics@comcast.net.

Also you may want to post the pictures on the following web site to see what the people there think. They may be able to point you to someone who is closer in proximity to your location.

http://www.thetreasuredepot.com/cgi-bin/relic/relic_config.pl

If all else fails I may be willing to drive there and pick it up to take it off his hands if he doesn't want it laying around. :tounge_sm

[33rd VA Co. H]

If it's fused which it appears to be then I would absolutely consider it a live shell. It's not gonna just blow up but you should treat it with reasonable care... ie don't pound on it with a hammer or put it next to a heat source. Surprisingly enough the powder in those shells is more times than not still just about as good as it ever was but there is no reason for everyone to freak out for crying out loud! Contact Bob at Centreville Electronics regarding having it disarmed. http://www.cwrelics.com/ He'll tell you everything you probably want to know. As far as telling the authorities... you're best bet is to keep your lip zipped...find out where that yard is, get a metal detector and dig the rest of them yourself if there even are any more. Have them disarmed and you'd have a pretty sweet display. Tell the authorities,... they'll come in and take away what could likely be a substantial amount of value in artillery shells. Just because they are the "authorities" doesn't mean they have a clue. A few years ago the "authorities" were called in to remove some "unexploded" ordinance. They reportedly took it to their disposal area,... set the charges and detonated a 12 lb solid shot with obviously no result what so ever.

That thing has been laying around for 140+ years and hasn't blown up. It's not gonna blow up because someone's granddaughter dug it up. Don't freak out.... it's not that big of a deal. People dig them all the time....seriously. Call Bob regarding getting that one disarmed... get a metal detector and go dig the rest of them! If I didn't live so far away,... I'd be happy to come clear that yard of artillery shells for you. :D

[jgr1974]

I would suggest contacting John Walsh at fortdonelsonrelics.com he is a member here as well. He provides a service to deactivate the shell. He may be able to help you out!

The Mad MIck!!!

[Todd Watts]

I finally see the pics. That is a CS case more than likely, using a lead plug and fuse. Without the entry from the fuse tape, my guess would be it is impact-detonated which was notorious for not working (especially CS types). The plug may have some sort of percussion compound on its inner surface and a weight that was meant to slap the compound upon impact, but if the ball glanced upon impact this may not have happened hard enough to detonate. Looks to be in the 24 pdr range if not 32 pdr.

A round like that won't "just blow up," however if the powder is dry, you can have detoantion due to static electricity. You are dealing with iron, a metal that can spark and if it receives hard knocks iron balls inside could theortically spark against each other or the case wall. Not to mention the fuse itself may detonate if it is an impact design and just waiting for the right hit.

Where was it dug at? I'll try to send the picture to my NPS expert and see what he makes of it.

[Chad Teasley]

Comrades,

At the risk of being accused of "freaking out", I feel compelled to reiterate my previous contention that the correct course of action is to report the device and have it examined by bomb disposal experts, preferably from a military EOD team.

Before anyone jumps to the conclusion that I am over-reacting, allow me to state that I've spent the last 22 years as a military ordnance technician, both enlisted and officer. Not that such a background means I know more about Civil War artillery than anyone on this board (which I certainly don't), but I do have a bit of experience dealing with unexploded ordnance (UXO).

As has been stated, there is a danger of static discharge creating an inadverdent detonation. There is the additional concern that we don't know for sure what type of condition the fuze and internal charge are in. Are they still stable? Probably. However, is there a chance that in the last century plus the explosive's stability has degraded somewhat? Yes. In the end, there's no way to know. The one thing that is certain is that we don't know for sure if the device is safe to handle.

I empathize with the desire to hang onto a valuable historical relic, but I would recommend erring on the side of safety. As has been pointed out, it is entirely possible that the local police might send someone to check the device who has no idea what they're looking at. (That's apparently what happened in the aforementioned episode concerning the needless destruction of a piece of solid shot.) For that reason, if there is a military base nearby, I would recommend contacting their EOD detachment and asking if they can send someone to check the device for you. Military EOD technicians, regardless of branch of service, are extremely well trained, and should be able to inert the device in short order.

Gents, I'm not trying to start a war of words or any on-line flame, but I've simply read too many lessons learned concerning this kind of thing turning out badly when not treated cautiously.

No offense at all intended towards any good Comrades on this board. Just a matter of different perspectives, that's all.

Back to figuring out how to defeat IEDs...

[celtfiddler]

When in doubt call your local military base or law enforcement to have it disposed of. Better to be safe....

[Jimmayo]

Jim,
I asked for more pictures, guess what, there is a lead plug opposite the other one.
It was found in Salem IN. directly along Morgan's route through Indiana in July 1863. Doesn't prove anything really, but a possibility. He was carrying Artillery with him and complained about bad confederate Ammunition.

I still think it is a gate weight. Here is a picture of a CS 12 lb ball with the sideloader plug. Even the concussion version of the 12 lb ball referenced earlier has the Tice fuse in the same place as the Time fuse shown in this picture. The Tice fuse is brass and clearly marked.

[fortdonelsonrelics]

I agree with Jimmy, looking at the measuring tape next to the ball, its not too close to any ordinance size. The quickest way to tell is to measure and weight it.

Secondly, the lead plug could be anything. We had a 12pd wood drive fuse ball completely filled with lead. Plus we have written accounts of them doing this here. We have also had gate weights brought in that looked exactly the same.

Most Confederate balls will have a distinct mold seam, this one doesnt appear to have one. Side loaders of size's 24pdr plus are rare to say the least. Plus side loader plugs are off to the side of a shell, not exactly opposite of the fuse.

For it to be any type of Civil War ordinance, it will have to measure out exactly to one of these ranges. (www.civilwarartillery.com)

12pdr: 4.50-4.52" range
24pdr: 5.67"
32pdr: 6.25"

Most every iron round ball that I have seen come out of Indiana, and I have seen several, are either rock crushers or utility weights of some sort.

In most all cases, its not the powder itself that causes the issue of concern. It has been well established that any shell that has been in the ground or under water more than 25 years does not contain a live powder charge.

The real concern is the breakdown of the powder along with the bi-product of hydrogen and hydrogen sulfide, mixed in with carbon monoxide. These volitile gases are what is most combustible. I refer you to N/S Trader's Civil War Vol. 32 No.2/2006.

If you are concerned, keep it in a cool place until you can get rid of it.

John Walsh
FDR

[Bob Herr]

The last couple of issues of "The Artilleryman" magazine have had articles about hazards of and dealing with unexploded CW shells. I think there were some contacts in the articles. I could dig them out and FAX or mail to you if it would be of help. - Bob Herr

[VaTrooper]

If it's fused which it appears to be then I would absolutely consider it a live shell. It's not gonna just blow up but you should treat it with reasonable care... ie don't pound on it with a hammer or put it next to a heat source. Surprisingly enough the powder in those shells is more times than not still just about as good as it ever was but there is no reason for everyone to freak out for crying out loud! Contact Bob at Centreville Electronics regarding having it disarmed. http://www.cwrelics.com/ He'll tell you everything you probably want to know. As far as telling the authorities... you're best bet is to keep your lip zipped...find out where that yard is, get a metal detector and dig the rest of them yourself if there even are any more. Have them disarmed and you'd have a pretty sweet display. Tell the authorities,... they'll come in and take away what could likely be a substantial amount of value in artillery shells. Just because they are the "authorities" doesn't mean they have a clue. A few years ago the "authorities" were called in to remove some "unexploded" ordinance. They reportedly took it to their disposal area,... set the charges and detonated a 12 lb solid shot with obviously no result what so ever.

That thing has been laying around for 140+ years and hasn't blown up. It's not gonna blow up because someone's granddaughter dug it up. Don't freak out.... it's not that big of a deal. People dig them all the time....seriously. Call Bob regarding getting that one disarmed... get a metal detector and go dig the rest of them! If I didn't live so far away,... I'd be happy to come clear that yard of artillery shells for you. :D

I'm not sure it's real. But if it turns out to be follow Greg's advice here.

[KyCavMajor]

Just a little further information after examining it myself.

The plugs are nearly opposite each other, so I think we can rule out Confederate Side loader.

It weighs almost exactly 12 lbs and is almost exactly 4 1/2 inches

It certainly appears to be a cannonball, but what type and how it got there is a mystery. What purpose a threaded fuse hole and another lead plug would serve on a gate weight or ornament I can't imagine.

The yard it was found in is on top of a hill commanding the town along approach Morgan used into Salem Indiana. Local legend maintains he camped across the street briefly. Were I him, the spot this was found is where I would post Artillery, it commands his rear, and the town.It is purely interesting speculation and conjecture as to whether this is a dropped or misplaced round. It would seem unlikely someone could lose a cannonball, but stranger things happen. There have been other artifacts recovered from the camp site across the street.

The town of Salem has a great little local museum for John Milton Hay who was a personal secretary to President Abraham Lincoln and served as U.S. Secretary of State under Presidents McKinley and Roosevelt and they have expressed an interest if it in fact is a cannonball. They control the rebuilt Salem Train Depot, which Morgan burned after discovering the locals had placed tools in the strongbox instead of cash to deceive him. They still have the original strong box on display.

So the next step is to send it off to one of the experts to determine what exactly it is, and whether or not it is armed, and then if it is authentic, not will be displayed for future generations.

[33rd VA Co. H]

Though I have a bit more than a clue...I'll certainly admit that I'm not an expert when it comes to artillery and Jim and John could possibly be correct about it being a fence weight as it's kind of hard to tell from a photo and I'm certainly not a farmer either. What I will say for certain is that if you contact ANY authorities you will lose that piece. There is no reason to do anything other than contacting someone to disarm it. People seriously DO dig them all the time and so you won't think I'm blowing smoke....here are a couple of photos of a shell dug in Louisa, Virginia last month. It's a Schenkl with a percussion fuse. This shell is relatively rare in that it contains the percussion variety fuse which had an 82% detonation rate. You just don't find these whole very often. It's already been disarmed and cleaned and is sitting on a shelf with many of it's brothers and sisters and the Virginia plate that was dug 4 feet away. The bottom line is,.... call Bob at http://www.cwrelics.com and send it off to be taken care of. You'll get it back cleaned and safe for all time.
http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=5235&stc=1&d=1180929425http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=5236&stc=1&d=1180929425

[fortdonelsonrelics]

I would bet 100% that its solid and doesnt have an any charge to it. The only hole that could be a fuse hole is filled with lead, so if thats the case it more than likely completely filled with lead.

The configuration of the two holes match no artillery shell known. Nor does either of the holes contain any type of fuse or fuse adaptor. For that type of shell it would either be a time fuse adaptor or a Borman type fuse. To my knowledge there were no percussion fuses used in spherical shells, nor would it make sense that they would be.

Interesting piece none the less.

John Walsh
FDR

[missourirelics]

I agree 100% with John.

Paul Arnold

[marine05]

Just did some quick research, during Hunt's raid his artillery consisted of 7 guns, 1 3in. Parrott rifle, 2 mountain howitzers, and in Palmer's battery, 2 12 pounder howitzers and 2 six pounders. Now the 12 pounders had a bore of 4.62 in, and the 6 pounder 3.67 inches. So in theory it could have been a 12 pounder round.

Not sure if it is a round, I also don't know if one would get "lost" as much of the ammuntion for those type pieces is fixed, unlike a Parrott or Ordnance Rifle where the charge and round were rammed separately. I could see a powder bag being lost as when firing double canister the second rounds powder bag was removed.

Looks like a very interesting find.

S/F

DJM

[Charles Heath]

It may bode well for some folks to seek and discover the not so subtle difference between "ordinance" and "ordnance." (Boldface added for emphasis.)

[marine05]

You, the former is a law the latter hardware

[Longbranch 1]

Sirs,

In my humble opinion any ordnance related relic should be considered " live " until authoritatively proven otherwise.

Relying only on my memory, and if anyone can help me with a specific citation;

Was there not an occurance during WWII on the Outer Banks ? Wilmington area of NC where Coastwatchers found unexploded ordnance, used the same as andirons, resulting in injuries and fatalities?

Thanks and Regards,
Kevin Ellis, 26th NCT

[Jimmayo]

Sirs,

In my humble opinion any ordnance related relic should be considered " live " until authoritatively proven otherwise.


Unfortunally it is hard to find anyone in authority who knows enough about Civil War ordance to make a valid decision. The mindset seems to be blow up everything and take no chances. There used to be some knowledable EOD people at Ft. Lee in Petersburg. When the interstates were being built through Petersburg, they made regular trips to the jobsites to pick up the artillery shells that had been unearthed that day.

As far as using shells for andirons, there is an account of a Lt. in a Union unit stationed in Portsmouth that had one on his hut hearth. It blew the end off of his hut.

[stx]

In regards to weither or not it's a fence weight, I would think there would be more than one left there. Assuming that the grand daughter is semi young and only using a shovel, the ball couldn't have been buried very deep. Follow the property line and you may find another. Or she could have just been lucky enough to find a cannon ball. My .02.

[yankeecav]

Since this is in Salem, IN you might give the Frazier Arms Museum in Louisville, KY a call and see if they have or know of a local expert that can come out and take a look at it. The number for Frazier Arms Museum is 502.753.5663. I hope that they can help save it if it is ordnance.

Tom Lowe
42 Ind. Inf. & Tar Water Mess

[Mbond057]

Here are a few good articles explaining the danger and preservation efforts of unexploded munitions from the Civil War. These relics are as deadly as they are important for us to study. Just make sure you know what you are doing. The graveyards are full of a whole lot of people who thought they knew what they were doing. :)

Civil War ordnance still poses danger
By Maj. Ben Bigelow and Lou Dell'Orco
St. Louis District
http://www.hq.usace.army.mil/cepa/pubs/apr01/story6.htm

Buffs incensed over destruction of Civil War items
By Kim Sloan
Dalton Daily Citizen
http://www.northwestgeorgia.com/local/local_story_207232620.html

Agents Blow Up Still Loaded Civil War Artifact
Reece Murphy
http://www.dunndailyrecord.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&SubSectionID=1&ArticleID=87266