A shell with tails...

[BrettKIllinois]

http://www.19thalabama.org/images/smcasey.gif

I'm scouring through this site that his a few images of different soldiers of this regiment with a shell with tails... anyone seen originals of this? This photo is of PVT Paris P. Casey, Co. I
Died in hospital in April 1862 after the Battle of Shiloh.

Source: http://www.19thalabama.org

[Stonewall_Greyfox]

Brett,

I believe this style jacket would classify as what is called a coatee. Various style tails can be seen on these, with open "swallow" tails as well as closed. Often times these are found with elaborate trim on the chest, and sometimes as many as 40 buttons.

I'm not sure when this style jacket came in vogue, it was around in the War of 1812 time period and seems to have almost fallen out of history sometime just after the Civil War...military schools still wear a version of this today as a formal uniform.



Paul B. Boulden Jr.

RAH VA MIL '04
23rd VA. Vol. Regt.

[jhodnett]

Several years ago I was fortunate enough to get to examine an original. If memory serves me correctly it was at the Sam Davis home in TN. I have some pics laying around some where of it I think and if I can find them I'll try and scan and post them if anyone is intrested. Like I said this was some time ago, before digital cameras so I'll see what I can do.

[BrettKIllinois]

Jeff I would really like to see your photos.

I have seen more ornate "militia" coats like these, but I have seen 3 soldiers in the 19th with these untrimmed ones. I am very interested any info folks can provide or links to the subject my searches did not find.

Thank you everyone for your time.

[nick19thind]

It's called a tailcoat or coatee.
They were worn by the British army from the Napoleonic Wars until 1856.
The US army wore them as full dress until they adopted the French-style uniforms of the Civil War in 1855.
They were still worn by cadets (such as West Point and VMI) and several militia units during the Civil War and in the years after.

[toptimlrd]

I was about to say, put a few more buttons on it and a birdcage and you would have a coat similar to a cadet's full dress.

Love that sword bayonet also.

[BrettKIllinois]

http://www.19thalabama.org/images/smwbrkm.gif
Another member of his company possibly sharing gear for photos or issued the same or what?

[BrettKIllinois]

heres two more gents that I think are sharing... I think they are brothers aswell from Company B
http://www.19thalabama.org/images/smkinga.gifhttp://www.19thalabama.org/images/smkingg.gif

images from: http://www.19thalabama.org/b.html

[Citizen_Soldier]

Greetings,
The Nebraska Historical Society has a denim coat that is of a similar pattern in it's collection and was on display about a year ago in Lincoln. If I remember correctly it is identified to a solider with the 1st Nebraska Volunteers.

Darrek Orwig

[Justin Runyon]

There is an original on display here in Vigo Co. ID'd to a young Indiana Cavalry Officer. It's sweet...dark blue with black trim, nice abrupt tails, very Jacksonian. Strange jacket for such young man to have had made, there is no evidence of his having been to an academy to my knowledge.

[Garrett Silliman]

Thanks for sharing the images. Both tailcoat images are remenicent of the original
2nd NH volunteer infantry uniforms, which were fabricated from grey satinette, piped with red and feature "swallow tails."

[BrettKIllinois]

I'd love to see all these original jackets photographed.

[coastaltrash]

Troiani actually did a painting of this company and some brief information is located in his uniform book.

[GermanDraftee]

I truly enjoy imges that display the variety of uniforms worn, especially early on in the war. (Still searching for one of Thielemann's Brigade, Cavalry.) Thanks for sharing these. By the way, in the photos of the brothers, have I been sitting at the computer too long, or does the one on the left have his bayonet tucked under his cartridge box sling?

[plankholder]

I dont think the 2 fellas from Company B are sharing gear, or at least knives. I have been staring myself cross eyed at the 2 images and I am pretty certain that the knives are different. Look at the blade curvature and the hilt. They do look enough alike to be brothers.-ELI GEERY

[BrettKIllinois]

Troiani actually did a painting of this company and some brief information is located in his uniform book.

I'm off to get his book then. Is the painting in the book?

[BrettKIllinois]

What's most interesting is all 4 seem to have the same belt even though they are in different companies.
I dont think the 2 fellas from Company B are sharing gear, or at least knives. I have been staring myself cross eyed at the 2 images and I am pretty certain that the knives are different. Look at the blade curvature and the hilt. They do look enough alike to be brothers.-ELI GEERY

[Stonewall_Greyfox]

Maybe I missed something; but the first two images appear to be wearing some sort of civilian horseshoe buckle, while the second two images appear to be wearing a belt plate of some sort.

While I would agree that there are two sets of styles here, they are of very different types.

[Roundball]

I'm being lead to believe that at least the "brothers" are sharing gear, if you look at the picture it looks like both have bayonetts tucked in to their belts as well as on the gun they're holding. There isn't a need to have two bayonetts...is there?

[CYoungJSU]

Troiani's "Regiments and Uniforms of the Civil War" touches more on the weaponry of the 19th Alabama than the unique uniforms. Smith and Field's "Uniforms of the Civil War" doesn't give much more insight. The authors state that other types of uniforms were issued by the state of Alabama during the early years of the war.
According to the authors,
Whilst encamped near Centreville, Virginia, during November 1861, the 12th Alabama Infantry received 'gray dress uniforms' which consisted of 'scissor tailed coats' and caps that 'fell over in front with a place for letters.' Similarly, members of the Cherokee Rangers, Co. I, 19th Alabama Infantry, were photographed wearing plain gray eight-button wool and cotton coats with swallow tails; and gray pants (185).
Now, we know that more members than only those from Co. I of the 19th wore these "swallow tail coats," but to what extent one can only guess. As an aside, Coloma, where the company formed is about 2 miles from my house. A relative of mine, David Young, of Company I is shown in an early war photograph wearing what looks to be a frock. Good luck with the research.

Chris

[BrettKIllinois]

Maybe I missed something; but the first two images appear to be wearing some sort of civilian horseshoe buckle, while the second two images appear to be wearing a belt plate of some sort.

While I would agree that there are two sets of styles here, they are of very different types.

Ooops, sorry i was refering to some photos I didn't post... like this one:
http://www.19thalabama.org/images/smdoss.gif Company C (horseshoe)

[BrettKIllinois]

This is the photo you speak of: http://www.19thalabama.org/images/smalyng.gif

Thank you for your help and input.

-Brett
Troiani's "Regiments and Uniforms of the Civil War" touches more on the weaponry of the 19th Alabama than the unique uniforms. Smith and Field's "Uniforms of the Civil War" doesn't give much more insight. The authors state that other types of uniforms were issued by the state of Alabama during the early years of the war.
According to the authors,

Now, we know that more members than only those from Co. I of the 19th wore these "swallow tail coats," but to what extent one can only guess. As an aside, Coloma, where the company formed is about 2 miles from my house. A relative of mine, David Young, of Company I is shown in an early war photograph wearing what looks to be a frock. Good luck with the research.

Chris

[jhodnett]

Brett,

Here are the pics of the coatee that I saw at the SAM Davis home. A pard of mine who still resides in the area, Bob Parker, sent me a message with the ID info. It belonged to Richard Alexander of Co. K Bates 2nd Tenn. The intresting thing to me about this one is if memory serves me correctly the lining in it was a print material instead of a woven design. I hope this is of help to you.

[BrettKIllinois]

Thank you for taking the time to share the photos.... very interesting stuff here.

[jhodnett]

In the message I recieved from Bob he went on to tell me that he had looked at some other pictures of guys from that company and it appeared that they were wearing the same coat. The guy that he was referring to was killed at Shiloh. So as he said this maybe the early war uniform of the company. Just some thoughts.

[BrettKIllinois]

Well how can we see THOSE photos? :cool:

I am glad I am not the only one interested in this coatee style.

[CYoungJSU]

Brett,

That's the picture of Pvt. Young. Those are some very interesting photos from the Sam Davis home as well. Good luck, and if I find any additional information, I will be sure to pass it along.

C.Y.

[Joe Walker]

There was on on display at the last Nashville CW show. It was made of blue-grey jean. It was ID'd but I can't remember the info. I wll try and find out. It may have been Alabama.

Joe Walker

[CYoungJSU]

I was at Kennesaw Mountain several years ago participating in the battle's annual living history program where these photos were taken. I cannot remember the exact name of the exhibit, but I think this may help with the coatee question. I have attached a picture of a coat (second from the left) worn by a georgia soldier. Although it is not cut in the fashion of a true tail coat, it does resemble that of a riding coat.

C.Y.

[Joe Walker]

CY-

This is the coat I saw. I had the union display with it as well as the other items about.

Joe Walker

[Spongebucket]

The garment that the original photos and the one that Hodnett showed are a coatee. Note how the tail is part of the body. This was similar in the 1810 thru to 1852 (ish). Same construct was used in civilian garments. The blue-grey jean cloth one is a "cut-away" coat or like the NY walking coat. It is essentially a frock coat with the skirts cut back. It does give the look of a coatee...just some different constuction methods. All really cool though. Have always liked that coatee, both the photos and the original in the Sam Davis home.
Cheers,
Joe Blunt

[BrettKIllinois]

Now my question is, where can I obtain a correct Coatee pattern?

-Brett

[GreencoatCross]

My suggestion is that you track down and contact Jim Ruley. Jim has given lectures at the Ladies & Gentlemen of the 1860's conferences about period tailoring techniques and I know that he has made more than a few coatees for himself as well as customers. He's one of the few guys out there who has a complete understanding of Devere's patterning methods; needless to say, his work is absolutely outstanding. If you have the skill level to sew a frock you may be able to purchase a custom-drafted coatee pattern from him for a reasonable price...just make sure you give him all the details of your project (i.e. military style coatee, stand-up collar, non-functional cuffs, etc.) and you won't be disappointed.

Good luck!

[BrettKIllinois]

Thanks a lot Brian.