Bayonet Dummy

[GeraldDuval]

So, as part of our LH programing at Fort Delaware, I am trying to incorperate a Bayonet drillwith both our staff and the public. As part of the drill I'd love to have at it at a bayonet dummy.

Does anyone happen to know or have any instructions for creating a Federal Bayonet training dummy?

[Jim of The SRR]

Warning, unless you have an original bayonet or a quality reproduction, you will bend your bayonet on the first thrust. The cheap Pakistani repros bend to easily to be used on a dummy. Making a plastron would be cool, but I doubt it would be legal to make one from whalebone (unless you found an antique).

Jim Butler

[paulcalloway]

Relating to Jim's rabbit trail, The Company of Military Historians publishes a manual on the various bayonets down through the ages.. .can't recall the title and am in a hotel so can't get it, but it has a description and period illustration of how bayonets were tested.

Essentially the bayonet was fixed on a rifle and the point of the bayonet was stuck in the floor. The rifle was then pulled back making the bayonet bend to about 45 degrees. If the bayonet snapped or was mishapen as a result of the test, it was discarded.

I doubt any reproduction bayonet would pass that test today. I'd be afraid to try.

If your bayonet dummy is essentially a bag full of straw, you're probably ok... but anything more than that and Jim is right, your typical reproduction bayonet probably won't survive the exercise.

[GeraldDuval]

We have one rigged up now, a straw filled one, and it's not too bad. What I've found is that rather than having faulty bayonets, we've ripped the front sights off a few different rifles...

Ideally I'd love to have the bayonet sockets and whalebone blades, the fencing masks and jackets, but for now we have to settle with wooden rifles and our straw dummy.

[BigRonFH]

Are the repro bayonets THAT bad that they break so easily? Why is that; poor-grade metal? What's the difference from the originals? Who makes the best repro bayonet on the market?

Ron Hopkins
Co. D, 13th US Inf
Sioux Falls, SD

[Stonewall_Greyfox]

Repro Bayonets = Cheap Casting w/ Cheap Steel

Original Bayonets = Forged Steel w/ proofing

Note: I cannot recall whether original bayonets were hot/cold rolled steel.

[Kevin O'Beirne]

Did they actually do bayonet drill in the Civil War using straw dummies, or is that just in the film "Glory"?

I once did bayonet drill on a dummy with my "cheap repro" bayonet and it was fine. However, I was A) Working hard to make sure I didn't bend it, and B) Many others in the same drill with the same cheap-repro as me did indeed bend theirs from a 90-degree angle to something like a 135-degree angle or so, and without a lot of effort. If you use a modern repro, do it with care and expect to have to purchase a new one.

Or, omit the dummy altogether and just stab at the air.

[unclefrank]

That sounds like a fun thing to do at a garrison sytle event.

[BigRonFH]

Does anyone make a quality repro bayonet that DOESN'T bend?

Ron Hopkins
Co. D, 13th US Inf

[Charles Heath]

Ron,

No. That is why the campaigner, progressive, and hardcore folks stress acquiring original bayonets.

Like Kevin, I'm also interested in seeing the documentation for a CW era bayonet dummy.

[1stMaine]

Comrades,

I do not know of any documentation for a bayonet dummy.

In McClellan's Manual of Bayonet Exercise, he lists, in his introduction to the subject, 3 distinct methods of instruction, none of which involve a dummy.

These are fencing, which he instances as difficult due to time and the difficulty of providing sufficient instructors for 1 V 1 teaching; Students using a plastron, mask and gauntlets, facing each other, for which he provides detailed instructions as to the equipment required and how it is made, and, finally, the mass instruction vis one or more NCO's, whih we all have occasioned to be taght in during our tenur in the line.

He (McClellan) also makes it known that the instruction is the responsibility of the NCO's and is to occur after the men are well versed in the school of the soldier.

The equipment for 1 V1 student practice includes a brown linen jacket with a double layer of buchskin on the left side, a plastron of horsehair padding to cover the left and center from the throat to the groin, a close-metal mask with wings to protect the ears, and gauntlets with extra padding upon the backs of the hands.

The arms for such exercise are made from old muskets and bayonets. The bayonet blade is removed, and the area at the base of the blade cut into a socket to recieve a flexible whale-bone blade of proper length. To the tip of this blade is affixed a piece of padded leather, tied with things or laces, to help prevent injury. The tip is also cut square, vice pointed, for similar reasons.

Basically, a review of the first portion (through pp 20) of the manual with give you what you need for instructive purposes, and plate XXIV shows the faux bayonet and it's components.

Respects,

[pipthelimey]

I can see militias drilling like this, but in the rush to the front, how many units actually used plastrons, facemasks, and pads to practice like this? It seems like an enormous amount of material would have been neccesary just for the practice. Coupled with the fairly low incidence of bayonet wounds, how common was this type of bayonet practice?

The one good thing about bent repro bayonets is that they are not too hard to bend back.

The same thing can be said about most repro swords. No flex in the steel, no real tang, no balance,no ability to hold an edge.

Has anyone ever reproduced the training aid that literally looked like a tennis ball strapped on to the end of the bayonet. Lord's calls it the Ernst's Fencing Bayonet. It was made of India Rubber, with a steel socket that looked like the brass throat fitting of the Enfield Bayonet scabbard (albeit smaller) to stop the bayonet from sliding through the ball. It had a leather buckle strap that attached to the socket. I'm not sure how common these were, but they're nifty.

[1stMaine]

Andrew,

I agree completely with you. My piont is that McClellan literally wrote the book about bayonet drill. Nowhere does he even mention, let alone consider, using a bayonet dummy. It's just not there.

He lists three methods of instructions, but in his explanatory text he makes clear that the first two, fencing, and the use of 1V1 practice with protective gear, is both expensive, time-waise and material-wise, and also best done with small amount of students, etc. He was writing for the regular army, after all, and they had a small trickle of new recruits, enough to where that sort of instruction might be easily accomplished. It would also work well for militia groups, etc.

However, he notes that the large group approach, in the manner we are all familiar with, open ranks and one instructor, is what is easiest to do.

Respects,

[1st Maine Trooper]

An alternative to using originals that i have found to work reasonably well is to oil harden the repops. They still cant stand side by side with an origianl but they dont bend when you stick them into the ground.
Dave Myrick

[Parault]

Mr. Kindred I was going to reply to this post with the same information,but,you beat me to it. We use this manual when we have bayonet drill. The only differance is we do it in English not French as it was instructed to the recruits. I have enjoyed the drill and have learned loads of information about handling the rifle with the bayonet,which I might add, is not very easy. For those that are interested you can find this manual online.

[Mark Somerville]

Our Company practices the bayonet drill from McClellan's manual and just this past weekend practiced infront of the public at an event. Our 1st Sgt. conducts the drill from McClellans book and even gives the commands in French.

We find that the open ranks and open files gives enough room to complete all the manouvers required. We have been working on this the last two years and have I think done quite a good job. We are slowly introduceing more each year while renforcing what we have worked on.

Mark Somerville

[storyboy]

Regarding the bayonet dummy. I produced an antique roadshow type program in Jonesboro, Ga. a few years ago with John Sexton of Stone Mountain Relics as our appraiser. The program was for civil war items only and was being filmed under the show title Valuable Memories
One of our guests brought in a "home made " book written in pencil titled Bayonet Tactics for the Zouave and Light Infrantry. It was dated 1861 and was dedicated to the "southern patriots of the empire state of the south" (which is Georgia). It stated that Hardees and Caseys were used in the writing.
My point is that inside were drawings of wooden rifles, bayonets and pikes and how to use them. There were no pictures or statements that I recall referring to "dummys".
The book was judged to be authentic (after John got over the shock) and it was suggested that the worth of it could be great or small since John knew of no other. The guest was directed to the Atlanta History Center so Gordon Jones may know of it. By the way the mans mother purchased the book in a box of books at a garage sale for $5.00.

Peter Bonner
Historical & Hysterical Tours, Inc.

[RJSamp]

Ron,

No. That is why the campaigner, progressive, and hardcore folks stress acquiring original bayonets.

Like Kevin, I'm also interested in seeing the documentation for a CW era bayonet dummy.

Straw, hay, or cotton were readily available compared to say Watermelons or Pumpkins that the cavalry used for edged weapon drills... and soft materials don't jar the exercise as much as wood (logs, railroad ties, or planks). Common sense dictates that they would have used bayonet dummies. Fencing Dummies have been around for a few thousand years, the kind that is stationary as well as the ones that hit back......Legionaires used them to hone swordmaking skills, as did Knights (both mounted and dismounted)....and so did ACW Cavalry.

Haven't read anything during the ACW similar to Belgian Babies being bayoneted by the advancing Hun.....maybe it's a good thing that Guerilla's were armed with revolvers?

[GeraldDuval]

Thanks for the information guys. I'm rather disappointed about the lack of info on dummies, but i'll hold out a vain hope for something.

At Ft. Delaware, we have an opportunity that many reenactors don't Since park staff is required to not only be there every day, but engage in 1st person living history on a daily basis, I can drill the Sh*te out of them...:D

As it stands thus far, I was able to train the whole staff to competency in Kelton's new '64 manual, in French, including all the parries, reposts and anti-cavalry drills. Normally we spend at least 1 hour on bayonet, 1 hour on Rifle drills and 1 hour on Heavy artillery drills every day. I know the public just loves to see the bayonet drill, and us mauling the dummy especially.

Oh well, I guess I just need to get cracking on making some plastrons and masks.

[Bob 125th NYSVI]

I think if you're dead set on producing a target you should really go with the "bag stuffed with straw" idea because there is no evidence the Union ever produced a dummy.

Manuals aside the Union had to train literally millions of infantrymen how to use a bayonet. Even if the dummy could stand up to the punishment inflicted by 100 men in training that literally means they would have had to order 15,000 or more dummies.

Not an insignificant number and surely to show up on QM returns somewhere.

So while you might pausably say that "the sargent thought it would be a good idea to give us somethign to aim at" the Army just didn't provide the "something" to aim at (other than an instructor or fellow private).

My father said in Korea they did some bayonet training using the real things with the scabbards left on, maybe some bright fellow somewhere between 1861-1865 thought of the same thing?

[riptailedroarer]

From , Bayonet Exercise by G.B. McCellan

P.17 To accustom the men to give an accurate aim to their thrusts, balls of wood, lead, or canvas stuffed with straw,may be suspened by cords as targets. Of course, this target practice must be combinded with the volts, parries, etc.

maybe this is what you can use.

[pvt_jb]

Andrew,

I agree completely with you. My piont is that McClellan literally wrote the book about bayonet drill. Nowhere does he even mention, let alone consider, using a bayonet dummy. It's just not there.



Actually it is there. On page 17 in the Manual of Bayonet Exercise by George McClellan. Which is quoted in the last post. But just in case here it is again.

"To accustom the men to give an accurate aim to their thrusts, balls of wood, lead, or canvas stuffed with straw, may be suspended by cords as targets. Of course, this target practice must be combined with the volts, parries, etc."

Mr. McClellan was just not nice enough to call it a dummy.

(Sorry this is an older thread but it surfaced again in a new thread)

[Mudslinger]

I must agree with the other parties that no such evidence existed that "dummies" were used for bayonet drill, at least none that I have yet found. I'll give this a stab.


In 1777, Fridrich Wilhelm, the Baron von Steuben, was sent to America to teach the Continental Army how to essentially fight as an army. Yes, He was a French Foot Officer, but He was trained in Prussian tactics, and instructed the Continental Army in such, and not French tactics. Nowhere did he record, or mention the use of a "bayonet dummy" when teaching the Americans bayonet drill. Interesting .....we've just begun!


McClellan's 1852 Bayonet Manual does not record a "dummy" either. In fact, this little French-interpreted manual was not the only one in existance during the war. What about the French Bayonet Drill of 1861? Colonel James Monroe of the New York State militia, copied the work of a French General named Le Louterel. Col. Monroe got the bayonet system from the French 1861 ordonnance. His translation was published in New York in 1863. This sytem was primarily used for the sword-bayonet. Nowhere does it mention a "dummy" used in drill.


And Patten's Bayonet Drill for the use of US Militia and Volunteer Units of 1861? Nope....it's just a condensed version of McClellan's 1852 Manual. The Type II Fencing Bayonet (1855 socket bayonet) was predominantly used in this drill (a Type I was the sword bayonet, fitted to the US 1816 musket) No dummy mentioned here...


Type II Fencing Bayonet Illustrations:
http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k80/valleyfirerescue/1858a.jpg
http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k80/valleyfirerescue/1862a.jpg


Ah!!! What about Lieutenant J. C. Kelton's Bayonet Method for the Union Army in 1862? This method was primarily based on conventional 19th century fencing, similar to McClellan's 1852 manual. Lt. Kelton wrote several versions of the manual even up to 1864. No "dummy" mentioned here either.....but, here is an illustration of Kelton's suggested drill gear:

A fencing helmet, fencing jacket, fencing gloves, & a wooden musket complete with the Type II fencing bayonet.
http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k80/valleyfirerescue/kelton1862gear.jpg


In closing, the closest thing besides "stabbing the air" or "bayonet fencing" with your opponent, was the German Bayonet Drill of 1830, which instructed the recruits to fence off a lancer. Below is an illustrated example:
http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k80/valleyfirerescue/bayger1.jpg


I'll stick with Kevin's idea......"just stab the air".

_______________________

Nick Miller
33rd O.V.I., Co. F (http://www.geocities.com/ovi33rdregiment/home)
Mudslinger Mess
Acorn Boys

“With the bayonet one can do anything.”-Napoleon

[PvtRJBrown]

Nick,

These bayonet fencing devices shown in the pictures on your post, I have never seen before, but are very intriuging. Some one should try to reproduce them for living historians use. How common were they in ACW drill?

[brown]

Did Casey's have an edition that pre-dates the 1862 version with which I am familiar?


One of our guests brought in a "home made " book written in pencil titled Bayonet Tactics for the Zouave and Light Infrantry. It was dated 1861 and was dedicated to the "southern patriots of the empire state of the south" (which is Georgia). It stated that Hardees and Caseys were used in the writing.

Peter Bonner
Historical & Hysterical Tours, Inc.

[Erik]

While I agree that there is no evidence for bayonet dummies, there is a reference in the British Field Exercise 1862 under Bayonet Exercises, S.11. Bayonet or Sword Bayonet Exercises. 1. General Directions;
"Giving Points at Marks.- In order to teach the recruit to deliver the thrust in a proper direction, a cross bar upon poles may be erected, from which balls can be suspended and a squad being drawn up in front should be practised in giving point at them."
I am sure that this practice would be known to serious students of the military art. I shall search for my Bayonet Drill manual for the British Army which includes the above and if memory serves me rings on a staff to serve the same purpose.

Erik Simundson

[Mudslinger]

Nick,

These bayonet fencing devices shown in the pictures on your post, I have never seen before, but are very intriuging. Some one should try to reproduce them for living historians use. How common were they in ACW drill?
__________________
Pvt/Cpl. Roy James Brown (a.k.a. Franklin J. Shaw)
1st Michigan Engineers Co. E

Roy,

I have yet to see a reproduction Type I or II Fencing Bayonet. On the same hand, I am currently in the process of talking to a manufacturer in Brooklyn, NYC, that may be able to reproduce these bayonets for a small price. I'll keep you informed.


Did Casey's have an edition that pre-dates the 1862 version with which I am familiar?

Lindsey,

There were many pre-war bayonet manuals written. The ones that I have researched came from foreign manuals, as well as State militias. As far as Casey's, could it be a second print? Or copyright infringement? There are several original bayonet tactics manuals which I will post on here later this week.

YOS,

Nick Miller
33rd O.V.I., Co. F (http://www.geocities.com/ovi33rdregiment/home)
Mudslinger Mess
Acorn Boys

“With the bayonet one can do anything.”-Napoleon

[PvtRJBrown]

Roy,

I have yet to see a reproduction Type I or II Fencing Bayonet. On the same hand, I am currently in the process of talking to a manufacturer in Brooklyn, NYC, that may be able to reproduce these bayonets for a small price. I'll keep you informed.[/I][/B]

Nick,
Please do! I would definetaly make a purchase of one if they were produced. I think it would add a very interesting addition to drill at an event. Give a different look on bayonet drill than the oh-so-well known Glory bayonet drill. I will agree with some of the posters on this thread, best approach to bayonet drill: the plain old air.

[Mudslinger]

Did Casey's have an edition that pre-dates the 1862 version with which I am familiar?


Originally Posted by storyboy
One of our guests brought in a "home made " book written in pencil titled Bayonet Tactics for the Zouave and Light Infrantry. It was dated 1861 and was dedicated to the "southern patriots of the empire state of the south" (which is Georgia). It stated that Hardees and Caseys were used in the writing.
Peter Bonner
Historical & Hysterical Tours, Inc.




Lindsey,

Patten's Bayonet Drill for the use of US Militia and Volunteer Units of 1861 was just a condensed version of McClellan's 1852 Manual. The French Bayonet Drill of 1861 adopted by Colonel James Monroe of the New York State militia, copied the work of a French General named Le Louterel. Col. Monroe got the bayonet system from the French 1861 Ordonnance. This system was primarily used for the sword-bayonet. It is mentioned however that this was a favorite of Zouave and Light Infantry Units.


YOS,

Nick Miller
33rd O.V.I., Co. F (http://www.geocities.com/ovi33rdregiment/home)
Mudslinger Mess
Acorn Boys

“With the bayonet one can do anything.”-Napoleon