Loyal Train of Artillery, USFAA training

[Vicksburg Dave]

Greetings Folks,

Can someone give me insight into the training methods of the Loyal Train of Artillery of the US Army Field Artillery Association. Did they just pull the drill out of their arse, or is it based on an original CW drill manual? Their trainees seem well represented in the Longstreet's Corps http://www.longstreetscorps.com/Units/2007Units/page2.html which uses a manual produced by the National Civil War Artillery Association. http://www.ncwaa.com/manual.html Why does #4 turn his entire body to face the gunner in their drill?

[Danny]

David -

I've been through NCWAA training, and as concerned as they are with period-correctness they are also focused on adaptations which keep the modern drill safe. I think the concern is that at some point the hobby might someday end because of bad press on even a few unfortunate reenacting accidents. I don't know if that applies for the organization you refer to but it might.

In our unit we've lapsed NCWAA membership, but only because we feel our standards for drill, if anything, are more stringent. We've gone to #4 facing the gun sergeant (rather than twisting upper body around to view the gun sergeant as some period drills would have it) because it doesn't counter period accounts and is less prone to mistakes.

- Dan Wykes
2nd Ill. Batt. G

[Pennvolunteer]

Vicksburg Dave,
I don't belong to the Loyal Train of Artillery, but am a life-member of the US Army Field Artillery Association and have met some of the Loyal Train guys. Just to clarify, they are a chapter, but not official representatives of USFAA as far as I know.
So, I volunteer with the US Army FA Museum Gun Crew at Fort Sill, and we use period drill manuals for our 6 lb Bronze smoothbore and 12 lb Mountain Howitzer. Don't know what the Loyal Train guys use, but it would seem they have access to the same.

[Vicksburg Dave]

Thanks,
I'm just trying to wrap my mind around why there is so much variation in the drill among artillery crews. I saw a crew this summer that had an dangerous drill, with number 3 and 4 standing directly behind the wheel during firing. When informed of their danger, they became indignant, claiming that they learned it from the USFAA. Furthermore, their #4, at the ready position had his arm at vertical with the lanyard in his fist behind his buttcheek, and when given the command to fire, he jerked the lanyard about 6 inches.

[Danny]

David -

Since in reenacting we fire blanks, there's no actual danger for #3 and #4 to stand directly behind the wheels - the gun doesn't kick back as much (if at all) as with a live fire. But I agree that the perceived danger is in looking like a fool, and either appearing to be illiterate (unable to read period manuals and accounts) or not caring (about period manuals and accounts). Doesn't say much for the USFAA either.

We allow #4 to "grab pant" with the same hand holding the lanyard, then to fire by twisting or falling away several inches, still holding the pant. More near the thigh than the buttock though. That method does insure the lanyard won't be too briskly snapped as with an arm yank, causing the primer to separate or pop out, or the lanyard to fly wildly outward to no benefit and maybe catching an eye.

For those that understand the mechanics of lanyard pulling, the "grab pant" isn't necessary, a straight arm fall back (per period diagram and drill photos) works as well.

Dan Wykes
2nd Ill. Batt. G

(p.s. is it ok to say "grab pant" in this forum?)

[bAcK88]

Since in reenacting we fire blanks, there's no actual danger for #3 and #4 to stand directly behind the wheels - the gun doesn't kick back as much (if at all) as with a live fire. But I agree that the perceived danger is in looking like a fool, and either appearing to be illiterate (unable to read period manuals and accounts) or not caring (about period manuals and accounts). Doesn't say much for the USFAA either.


Ha! I've seen the recoil from a cannon firing just one or two pounds of powder and in both cases standing behind the wheel would hurt.

Bill

[Forquer]

As a Life Member of the United States Field Artillery Association, let's clear the air on one point. USFAA is NOT a "certifying" organization when it comes to the training and use of period ordnance.

I do not know what source(s) the Loyal train or any of their associates/affiliates use to train their respective detachments.

[Danny]

Ha! I've seen the recoil from a cannon firing just one or two pounds of powder and in both cases standing behind the wheel would hurt.

Bill

Bill -

Ha! So does tripping over an implement. I was referring to real danger.

One word for those having #3 and #4 standing behind the wheels: Chocks.

Dan Wykes

[BattF 1]

1.) Drill, drill and drill again. If every cannoneer knows his duties, the only necessary changes for safety involve #3( do not cover the vent with your hand and do step outside the wheel before the command FIRE). Load by detail is a training exercise and should not be done in the field. I'd really love to see the infantry load in nine times for each shot!

2.) "The gunner gives all executive commands in action."
"...stepping clear of the wheel to that side where he can best observe the effect of his shot, (the gunner) gives the command FIRE." Quotes from French, Barry and Hunt.

So, an order isn't an order til you hear it from the gunner, and we use the second to move the gunner to a position where #4 can see him without becoming a contortionist.

Just the way we do it.

Jim Borland
5th Indiana Battery

[Jeffrey Cohen]

If the conditions are right our 8oz load will make our Parrott rock back a couple of inches.
If you see an unsafe drill you're choices are limited. If they won't correct themselves and artillery command refuses to address the situation:
Run like the wind, because when they hurt themselves or someone else the lawyers are going to cast a greedy eye on you.
Regards,
Jeffrey Cohen

[Danny]

... I'm just trying to wrap my mind around why there is so much variation in the drill among artillery crews. . .

The reason is that any particular gun drill you see is typically only repeated at that one event or maybe the next few events at most. What's not typical is for that same drill to extend for the season. Because of this "moving target" effect there is yet to settled, if ever, or by anybody, a fully acceptable drill.

What's important is that everybody on crew knows and agrees to employ the exact drill being used at the moment, and be willing to change the drill without a fuss as long as the basics of physical safety are in place.

What's unfortunate is that at events the various Batteries don't synchronize their drills very well - onlookers are not able to determine by watching that the cannoneers are supposed to represent the same Army in the field, or that the drill is based on instruction from the same government manual.

- Dan Wykes
Batt. G 2nd Ill.

[Cogden3]

Well I didnt think my first post here would be on this topic!! However I am a member of the Loyal Train of Artillery, the manual we use was written with saftey in mind, we do not teach to stand behind or inside the wheel!! #4 should be standing straight ahead to observe downfield conditions. The manual I admit is not an exact copy of the original drills but after major accidents you find room for improvements and try to institute them with little impact on the original drill!! Thanks for having me on this board, I look forward to improving my impression!! Everyone on this site is a great help!!

Chuck Ogden
One more note - We (Loyal Train) use a different manual than that of the NCWAA.

[Danny]

...#4 should be standing straight ahead to observe downfield conditions... Chuck Ogden.

Chuck -

Welcome!

Can we assume you mean that #4 should be standing straight ahead to observe downfield conditions before "come to the ready"? Because unless I misunderstand, isn't #4's main responsibility to hear, see and obey the gunner (or who the gunner designates as the fire command for section fire). He's a human trigger, not a strategist. (He wouldn't see the sword point drop if he's standing straight ahead).

For that matter even before "come to the ready" #4 should be more watching and coordinating actions with #3 .

#1, #2 and #3 watch the muzzle, or vent, or each other when they don't have a physical action to perform.

I realize that in a general sense all cannoneers are observing downfield conditions, if that's all you meant.

- Dan Wykes
Batt. G. 2nd Ill.

[Cogden3]

Yes sir, you are correct!! Under our drill, after #4 releases the gun to the gunner(after priming the weapon and nodding off #3) he is a human trigger at which point he would be in site of the gunner!! My main point was that he is outside of the wheel! Sorry, for the confusion!! #1 watches the muzzle #2 and #3 watch down range under our drill (when not phsyically working the piece)!!

Chuck Ogden

[Cogden3]

Well let me try this again!! I dont no if it didnt post or if I'm being moderated.

You sir are correct!! However in our manual it states that #4 will stand straight forward and listen for the "fire" command. We do actually turn to about the 10oclock position to see the gunner, for the very reasons you stated!! My main point was that #3 and #4 are outside the wheels and this is stated very clearly in the Loyal Train Manual. While the manual we use states clearly that it is NOT for live fire, we use the same drill during live fire events, it is a safe drill, and does not vary much from the originals other than for saftey purposes!! Danny as you posted, the drills may change a little from event to event. In Oklahoma it is very hard to maintain a full gun crew for every event, this in itself is a challenge. We have a regular crew of about 4 or 5 that we can rely on all the time but after that you may have to pickup who you can where you can. This again can change the drill a bit from time to time.

Thanks again,
Chuck Ogden

[Pennvolunteer]

Just to reiterate what I said earlier and Forquer echoed as life members of the USFAA, it is not a certifying organization for anything. If someone says they are trained and certified by the USFAA, warning bells should be going off. It is a professional organization of Redlegs that includes current artillerymen, those interested in muzzleloading artillery, and some of us that fall in to both categories. Many, or most of the USFAA members are very current on modern artillery, but can't tell a Napoleon from a Parrott. I encourage you all to join the organization if truly interested and committed to artillery, and yet don't get it confused as some oversight organization that sets standards and certifies anyone in living history. We had firing demos this morning with the Fort Sill Museum gun crew, and I passed along that someone had cited USFAA training here, and we all had a good chuckle. (And #3 and 4 were always outside the wheels!) The USFAA main office is across the street from my office, and the ladies there are nice, but not up on muzzle loading artillery. Maybe someone disagrees, but the National Park Service guys at Antietam had a good gun drill reference as I recall.

[marine05]

"Come to the ready" where did that command come from? HBF has three commands for the gunner during the firing sequence, "Load", "Ready", "Fire".

[Danny]

"Come to the ready" where did that command come from? HBF has three commands for the gunner during the firing sequence, "Load", "Ready", "Fire".

Dan -

"Come to the Ready" is the same thing as "Ready", and it comes from the same place, our Gunner's mouth.

Dan Wykes

[Pennvolunteer]

Well, not that it answers anything, but I have talked to the director of the USFAA and one of the board members of the Loyal Train, and they will clarify that the Loyal Train is a chapter of the USFAA, but in no way does the USFAA endorse their training and certification program.

If you have issues with their drill, recommend you go to their website and contact them.

[Todd Watts]

This past weekend at Mill Springs I got to watching a crew in the Federal battery on Saturday that was breaking most known rules. The #1 man was trying so hard to never be in front of the muzzle that he was laying across the barrel behind the front sight on the 3" rifle, actually having his left arm draped over the barrel. #2 was standing behind the muzzle as well during loading with his back to the barrel but inside the wheel. The #3 man seemed to be doing things fairly well, except he had his hand on the wheel during the loading sequence while he thumbed the vent. The #4 was doing that awful farbby twist dance when pulling the lanyard, and still was facing the gun as he pulled somehow. :confused: How he did that trick I never could figure out. I guess he had yet to catch the hook in the face yet to learn him better.

I personally am partial to the NPS training which is very close to the 1860s manuals. They alter it mainly in the time since they never allow rapid fire at the Parks and this has kept them 100% accident free for several decades now while still allowing a very close to perfect drill. Several NPS battlefields offer training to volunteers and are willing to let reenacting groups come to training weekends with their guns. They also can show proper inspection methods for guns, something that almost no reenacting groups know about. I personally am involved with Stones River Nat'l Battlefield and their training, but know that Chickamauga and Kennessaw Mt. have good programs as well since I do stuff with them as well. I have not undergone the USFAA training, but am a member. I would suppose they have a decent drill, but without seeing it I would not recommend for or against it myself.