Curious original saber- need ID help

[Johnny Lloyd]

Gentlemen:

Here is a pic of an original saber that I bought for 60 dollars from an junk dealer when I was in high school.

It is semi-crudely made, but definitely used in battle and is sharp- as-ever. It is made of flexible, but very durable steel and is well-balanced. It has a "federal"-looking motif. This was most certainly a very used sword.

My best guess is that it is a prewar militia or even War of 1812 pattern. If so, it probably saw use in the Civil War era.

Thanks for your help in-advance...

What do I have here? -Johnny

[Clsinclair]

Hey Johnny,

I will be camping with some of your Pards from the 2nd this weekend. As for the sword go to:

http://www.cds1.net/~nardi/swords/index.htm

Tom Nardi at this site can probably help if you can't find it here.

Best Regards,
Claude Sinclair

[Chihuahua]

Sir:
How on earth did you conclude that it was definitely used in battle?
As I have a number of such items, I would be eager to employ your clairvoyant abilities.
Mark Warren
Hairy Nation Boys
Bloomfield, Iowa

[Johnny Lloyd]

Hello-
Here goes:
It has clack marks on it corresponding with sword strikes and it is stained from either field/utility use of some sort. It does not have much of a point because it is used for slashing, not as much for thrusting.
The leather on the wood-wrapped handle has not completely worn away from someone's warm hand/sweat being on the handle, but it's still present in small amounts.
At some point, someone attempted to clean the blade because the handle and pommel are worn, but the blade is shinier than the rest of the weapon. It's a very practical weapon- not a "mantlepiece ranger."
It is sharp as a fine cutting edge should be for battle as well as it is made of spring steel to absorb any strikes from opposing blades. Good bladed weapons are made to be used like that.

Basically, I could determine within good observation, above evidence and probability that it could have most likely been used on a battlefield and was a battlefield pick-up of some sort.

Hey, I ain't CSI, but if anyone sees this blade, they will know it has been used somehow. That being said, I highly doubt it was used for yardwork only. :cool:

Thanks- Johnny Reb

[1stMaine]

Johnny,

I may be off base here, but my first thought was that it was French, about late 1700's to early 1800's. However, after looking at the blade embellishments, I beliv=eve it to be either Spanish or Mexican. It might well be a Mexican copy of the French pattern. I might also be completely wrong.

Just sayin'.......

[VA-Patriot'61]

I personally would take the sword to a reputable person who can examine it and determine whether it's been used in battle and where the sword originates from. I found it's not wise to assume things on your own unless you are a subject matter expert on the topic at hand.

As for original swords and blades being used for yardwork my family kept an 1860 saber on the back porch and used it for breaking canes and cutting marshgrass in the early 1900s, I can imagine the dings and scrapes on it weren't caused from battle but rather my careless ancestors.

[Johnny Lloyd]

Kirby-

Again, as I've said before, disclaimer... I am making an educated guess here and asking others who could have more experience on here for help. I will not knowingly mis-identify anything or assume too much, rest assured. This is damaging to history as well as antique collecting when something gets mis-identified as has happened before even by the trained eye.
On this, I'm a purist. No IDs before definitive proof... ;)

Heck, I cannot even say for sure it is American. Therein lies the mystery. It could be a prewar militia sword or a Confederate-made one. It could be French or Mexican. It could be War of 1812 or Seminole Wars. Never know until we find one like it... :confused:

Think: Even an "expert" on anything -sometimes- makes an educated guess at some time if he doesn't know what he's looking at.

I just cannot place this pattern, but it looks similiar to some in the link Mr. Sinclair sent above. Good stuff. I'll check that site over!

Thanks- Johnny

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

Are there any stampings on either side of the blade, near the ricasso at the base of the hilt/guard that might indicate a maker or country?

At quick glance, is is similar to a large number of similar styled cavalry sabres of the late 1790's through roughly the mid 1820's," particuarly for the War of 1812.
The new federal government started supplying arms to state militias about 1798 as part of the "Quasi War with France, and sabres of similar form show up in New England militias under federal and state contractors such as Starr.
And as shared, the new U.S. was fond of copying foreign designs especially French.

I cannot quite make out the blade etching, but it looks like a rattlesnake, which along with an eagle was a popular Mexican motif of roughly the 1820's or so- although that may or may not have a bearing here.

One never knows about a blades provenance or history, and I am not saying it here, but all-too-often nicks in the blade are from "D.C" (Duelling Children) or "G.A." (Goofy Adults) ;-) :-) (Especially when the age and patina of the nicks, under glasss, is newer than elsewhere...)

All-too-often 19th and 18th century swords are found with the twisted brass wire broken and gone from the grips, the leather wrap worn/flaked, or missing due to natural decay of the "skin" acelerated by the acids in the tanning process.

Curt

[Johnny Lloyd]

Curt-

No stamps of any sort are on the weapon at all. This leads me to believe that the weapon was not made in a large factory, but unofficially in a small shop.

Here's an interesting tidbit: the "federal motif" consists of a shield with stripes on it and the sharpened area looks as though there was a canton of stars above it. (Think the national seal's shield that the eagle holds in front of his chest.)

It's barely visible in the picture, but I've attached a detail of what I see on it.

Curt- Danke schoen, fur ihr hilfe und freundshaft! That's the kind of help I needed here. :D

Gruss mit Gott in Himmel
;) -Johnny Lloyd

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

In heraldry, it would be the other way:

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y104/Michael1787/Sword2enlarged.jpg

Here is a smattering of similar Starr, Nippes, Rose contract type cavalry sabres from Morristown, NPS:
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y104/Michael1787/Swords.jpg

You may have Stumped This Chump here, without markings to be seen, but with the "form" being widely used in that era, say 1808ish through 1818-ish, a contract cavalry sabre- likley New Englandish is still my best guess.

Curt

[Johnny Lloyd]

Curt-

It does have 6 pointed stars on the other side of the blade... 15 of them to be precise but it looks like there might be 3 of them that have been sharpened-over. The attached picture is faint, but you can make them out if you look closely. Have you seen any like this?

It looks awfully like number 16 on your list,

Well, we might have the period it was made, but no manufacturer.

[Vuhginyuh]

Is there any sign of engraving on the ridge of the ricasso?

[Johnny Lloyd]

The motif is continued on the ricasso that is on the entire blade... no stamps at all... Johnny

[Vuhginyuh]

Not the flats. Hold it sharp edge down and look on the ridge just in front of the guard. Look for hand engraving, not stamps.

[Johnny Lloyd]

Hi-
When I mean nothin', I mean not a dag gum thing... No engravings, stamps etc, nothing but the haf-hearted, filagree-lookin' stuff on the blade in the pics. You'd think the artist/craftsman would have been proud of his work, but noooo... ;)
That's why I think this thing was made in a mega-hurry... well, but functional and without too many frills.

PS- Living up here in CT is fine, but I sure do miss my home in Myrtle Beach... say hi to it for me next time you are there. :(:p

[Vuhginyuh]

Johnny, don’t be so quick to sell the blade short. You have a fine example and whoever bought it new did too. I may have missed this in an earlier post but it’s an officer’s sword, or at least one that someone had to pay extra for. This wasn’t a hastily done job that was pushed out the armory door to someone in a hurry.

The process that was used to etch the blade is similar to a printmaking technique called aquatint. The blade is forged, finished and polished. Tar is painted on the parts of the blade the engraver wanted to remain bright or shiny. The exposed parts were then etched with acid. The tar could have been removed at that point or more added to other sections and the process repeated to increase the illusion of depth. When all the tar was finally cleaned away the blade was polished again. Certain elements of the design could have then been enhanced with a scratch awl. The bright sections may have been blued at that point but you may never know now.

Don’t be surprised to find someday that the blade is imported. The practice of using fine European blades on American swords wasn’t new then…or unheard of now.

* * * * *

I’ll start to take advantage of the Myrtle Beach area again in about a month, when many of the Willies off the Pickle Boats begin clear out. I'll gladly say hi for you the next time I'm there.

[nick19thind]

It looks 18th century, from the Revolutionary War or Napoleonic era. Possibly a hunting hanger or naval officer's sword.
It may well have been used during the Civil War as officers often carried their fathers' and grandfathers' swords.