Farb Shirt, Trousers & Dress

[civil war railroader]

The trousers I bought, one at the Regimental Quartermaster in Gettysburg and another at a sutler at an encampment. Both are regular waist high instead of going up the waist and part way up the belly. When did trousers ( like todays pants ) come in to play? Also, another dilemma I have is that I am 6' 6" and 250". I have found a few sutlers that offer waist sizes that accomodate me, but am I going to have to have a set custom made for my 36 inch inseam?

Mark Phillips
bbjimbo@yahoo.com

[terry winders]

Mark,

I am a large man myself,6 4 and 240 pounds.I have a inseam of 36 in.I gave CJ DALEY a call,and he fixed be up with 38x36 trousers.They fit me great.Give him a call he will help you out.Good luck,I know how hard it is to find clothes that fit.


Terry Winders
Mess No. 1

[civil war railroader]

Much appreciated from someone who knows my pain!

Mark Phillips

[civil war railroader]

I don't know if this should go here, or "Camp of Instruction". How about mens collared shirts with ticking? Proper? Improper? Would it be an acceptable work shirt for a common laborer, or would a store clerk be more apt to wear it? Or, would it be an evening shirt?

Is there a rule as to how much space there should be between collars, or do just select appropriate neckware to fill the void? Would someone also further explain to me what type of shirts would have the buttoned on / in collars, and would it matter if it was paper, linen, or other material, as well as how or if the collar folded down.

For the ladies out there...my wife purchased a camp dress from Abrahams Lady, and two dresses from Barranacas. One of the ones from Barranacas has shiny brass buttons which have since been replaced. We just got another one from Barranacas, and the buttons are plastic. This will need to be changed. The dress from Abrahams lady is nice, but we were told by the people at Eve of Bumperville that the dresses were cut and sewen wrong. Besides some obvious machine stitching, we were instructed that the seams in a ladies dress " go with the direction of motion". How much weight is put on that at re-enactments / encampments?

I know some people have been very kind to recommend certain sutlers / sutleries, but I was suprised and shocked at someone who seemed very reputable has not had correct products. It is fairly frustrating, and not very economical to keep dumping a couple hundred here and a couple hundred there until you find the right provider. I will try the ones that have been recommended to me, but after reading past posts ( as I stated in my first post ) it seems that there have been reputable vendors on this site that are no longer considered as such. And after visiting several sites, yes, some names do continue to pop up as good suppliers, like Robert Land, but some names never seem to make it on other sites. Do they just not know about them?

Regards,

Mark Phillips
civil war railroader

Thank you, from a newbie,

Mark Phillips
civil war railroader

[ElizabethClark]

True ticking is best suited for mattresses... but is what you have a true ticking, or a blue stripe fabric in a medium-weight, smooth-woven cotton? A store clerk would be likely to wear a white shirt, and evening shirts are pretty invariably white and fine, with a fine linen bosom.

On the neckwear issue, I'd defer to gents on the board with more ability to explain, but I'd encourage you to hit the local library, and ask directions to the "history of photography" section of the non-fiction stacks. You'll find great books with hundreds of images of real people from the era, and can make your own determination on the collars, spacing, etc issues.

On the women's clothing, I'll try to be brief, but it's a huge topic.

First, there is no such mid-century women's garment as a "camp dress." It's a modern term from merchants, and the garment given that name can range from very acceptable to really, really poorly done. If your wife's dress from Abraham's Lady is one piece (skirt attached to bodice), the overall look of the garments is reasonable. It may or may not have features that would bump it out of the running as a full reproduction, and thus may or may not be useful at all events. In general, it is *very* difficult to get accurate women's clothing off-the-rack... this is an era with very individualized fit, and standard sizing ranges don't take individual variations into the mix. Your wife's dress may require anywhere from a little to a lot of alteration to make it fit her well.

In my own opinion, I have qualms about "Eve's" research in general, and its application to repro work. For background, I'm a dressmaking instructor, and teach skills and construction for the 1840-1865 era, and I have *no idea* what she's talking about with seams "going in the direction of the motion." Period seam placement is different from modern seam placement, but there's nothing do to with "motion direction" in the process of fitting or construction a mid-century garment. If that is "Eve's" way of describing appropriately-placed shoulder and side seams (which run on a slight bias line toward the back of the body, rather than perfectly lined up with the body's side and shoulder horizon), it's a very odd way to describe it, as that placement has nothing to do with "movement" and everything to do with "that's just how the originals are cut." Speaking professionally, it's a criticism I'd question or discount quite a lot, given "Eve's" own work that sells on eBay. "Eve" sells a lot of things that fail to conform with historic shapes, styles, and fashion/function norms of the era.

Without images of the two other dresses, I'd be hard-pressed to even offer an opinion on their potential accuracy.

My recommendation--do not buy another stitch of anything until you can get with a good mentor who isn't trying to sell you things, and get some details worked out about impression needs. Particularly with women's things, there's no point looking at a single dress option until the basics of undergarments and a well-fitted custom corset are in place. Most citizen groups have a "loaner" box of women's clothing, and may be able to help outfit your wife in basic, good quality gear while she researches and acquires her own wardrobe. You may find that any or all of the things already purchased will not meet your own needs for historic accuracy; these may be good candidates for listing as costume pieces on eBay (not as repros, but as Halloween dress-ups), with the sales funds reinvested in carefully researched, carefully chosen accurate historical repro items.

Depending on the folks you ask, "good" vendors run the gamut from those excellent merchants who do a lot of research and apply it fully to their work, to dreck vendors who'd sell the nylon lace of their Grandma's underpants if someone would purchase it, and everything in between. Hold out and do your planning, and buy from the really top-notch vendors. It's worth the agony of delayed gratification, I promise. I've seen dresses that were purchased new from accurate semi-custom and custom dressmakers, in the $150-$200 range, sell for MORE than their original price, in a used state! Good work holds its value, and lasts you a lot longer than dreck. Be patient! Assembling a functional woman's wardrobe, for instance, can take up to a year, but can be done economically and without mis-steps, IF you're patient and willing to seek out the things that really are suited to your individual impression needs and meet your individual goals for historic accuracy.

[NoahBriggs]

Detachable collars are typically seen on banded collar plaid or gingham shirts. The collars could be made of stiff paper, cotton, or a blend of the two. Collars could be up, down, with rounded or pointed wings, and they ranged from narrow openings for cravats to wide openings.

As Liz mentioned, you need to resist "Reenactor Rapture". You have mentioned several times that you have dropped money on items only to "discover" they are not as good as they were supposed to be. Mentors can help you and your missus from having to pay more to upgrade and correct mistakes.

[Trish Hasenmueller]

Elizabeth is always too retiring to recommend her own web page, but it is the best place to get mentoring on the web. Go there and read, read, read to find out good ways to get started going in the right direction.

http://elizabethstewartclark.com/

Trish Hasenmueller

[FranklinGuardsNYSM]

High-waisted trousers were a standard of male fashion well into the 20th century, finally beginning to fade around the 1960s.

The "Approved Vendors" button in the menu bar will give you a list of quality makers of accurate replicas, many of whom will work with you on a custom order if you so require.

[Johan Steele]

http://www.stonybrookcompany.com/ Chris Sullivan is a true wonder to work w/. There is a consignment page where some deals can be made but for your size I would have him custom your trousers.


Good Luck

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

"When did trousers ( like todays pants ) come in to play?"

Sometime during the 1990's...

Seriously, there are makers and vendors that supply different Mental Pictures with their needs. Some are History-heavy, some are History-light.

IMHO, avoid the ones that do not serve your Mental Picture.. and the AC Forum vendor's list is a great place to find the History-heavy makers and vendors, Plus there are other excellent makers'vendors who choose not to be part of the Approved Vendors List process, that you will see praised in general AC Forum posts.

They will make a proper garment for you and your sizing.

Curt

[LibertyBelle78]

I second that! I have learned so much from Elizabeth's website that, so far, I have not thought of a single question that is not already answered somewhere on her site. I can't say enough good about it....

Cheers,
Christy :D

[ElizabethClark]

If the trousers are not returnable, consider listing them on eBay as a costume piece... now is the time for that sort of thing, with Halloween coming up.

Then, take your time and research merchants, find one who can supply a good garment that's cut long enough to fit you (keeping in mind that citizen clothing and citizen professional uniforms are more individualized than military uniforms), and reinvest the eBay funds in something useful.

[civil war railroader]

Thanks Noah,

In talking with the gentleman from the Watchdog, I found that an individual can take a "collarless" shirt, and sew their own button in the back for the collar. For some reason I thoughts those shirts were sold like todays button down collar shirts. Either you can buy them with the button or without. Now I know, it is an "add your own". September Storm was a very informative day for my wife and I with still some conflicting advice both from sutlers and participants. We are still learning though and trying to make sure we have fun.

Regards,

Mark Phillips

[civil war railroader]

Hi Elizabeth,

As for the "direction of motion", that is how she was trying to explain it to me to help understand how that direction / type of stitching as you described "running on a slight bias line toward the back of the body" helps keep the dress / bodice from "binding" or bunching, I guess, rather than the many "off the shelf dresses" whoose stitching just goes vertically in a persons sagittal plane as we refer to in the medial field. Even though I am a man, I try and pay as much attention to womens clothiers as I do clothes for myself. This helps my wife and I communicate better about what she likes and needs, that was I can look for things or get things for her.

I really appreciate everyones advice and input. Keep it coming, there is so much to learn.

Regards,

Mark Phillips

In my own opinion, I have qualms about "Eve's" research in general, and its application to repro work. For background, I'm a dressmaking instructor, and teach skills and construction for the 1840-1865 era, and I have *no idea* what she's talking about with seams "going in the direction of the motion." Period seam placement is different from modern seam placement, but there's nothing do to with "motion direction" in the process of fitting or construction a mid-century garment. If that is "Eve's" way of describing appropriately-placed shoulder and side seams (which run on a slight bias line toward the back of the body, rather than perfectly lined up with the body's side and shoulder horizon), it's a very odd way to describe it, as that placement has nothing to do with "movement" and everything to do with "that's just how the originals are cut."

[Drygoods]

About the only thing that one can do with badly made 'costumes'...don't sell them on ebay because some other poor CW fellow might end up with them. Instead, donate them to the local high school theater department and collect the tax donation. Costumes you can spot a mile away, but period dress, now that is worth a second look and up close too.;)

[ElizabethClark]

Actually, if costume pieces are listed as costume pieces on eBay, it's not likely to show up as living history clothing. It's the pieces that are quasi-historical and listed as "costume or Civil War" that cause problems down the road. An honest description of a piece allows the buyer to make up their own mind on whether or not the item works for their own personal purpose.

[ElizabethClark]

A bodice can be cut exactly on the saggital plane and not bunch or bind--that's a product of poor fitting, not cutting. Modern dressmakers making modern clothing use seams that align on the saggital plane with great precision, and do not get clothing that bunches or binds, even with high fitted, very complex bodices. Calling aligned seams a "problem" because they "cause bunching or binding" is not really accurate--they absolutely do work for modern sewing purposes, *IF* the fitting is done well.

The directly-aligned seams will not generally be "period placement" though--that would be the block-point against it for period clothing. Slight bias seaming at sides and shoulders is very common for mid-century women's clothing. It allows for tighter fitting without stress wrinkles, but again, bunching or binding is a flaw in fitting, not seam placement or cutting, regardless of the precise orientation of the seams themselves.

It's a wise man who knows women's clothing. :) Seriously--there are SO many variations in citizen's clothing that *can* factor in! There's far more to it than "big skirt, it's historic," as you're finding out rapidly. :)

Still, best advice: get the understructure done first. Nothing sits right without it.

[Chessa]

Also another suggestion: Even if you aren't planning on sewing anything, do visit Mrs. Clark's forum (www.thesewingacademy.org). If you have questions about anything, they've probably already been answered there, and if not, the ladies (and gents!) are happy to help! :)

Good luck!

Chessa

[Secesh]

Hello,
Check out the book "Frozen in Time", regarding the exhumation of the 3 graves on Beechey Island in the Arctic. These 3 men, 2 British sailors and a Royal Marine, all who died in 1846, were members of the Franklin Expedition, which was mysteriously lost top a man. Scientists exhumed the graves in order to see what killed these 3 men, and if it could perhaps shed light on what happened to the rest. To make a long story short, all 3 bodies ( who were buried in 1846), were excellently preserved / frozen, and 2 of the men were wearing blue and white ticking shirts. Excellent photos in this book detailing the hairstyles, clothing, etc. of these men. Best regards, Tom

p.s. The 3 died of a combination of TB and pneumonia, brought about by severe lead poisoning from the tin cans used to store the food for the expedition. It lowered their resistance to fight of infection.

[Hank Trent]

To make a long story short, all 3 bodies ( who were buried in 1846), were excellently preserved / frozen, and 2 of the men were wearing blue and white ticking shirts.

Ticking, or hickory? I don't know enough about those fabrics to identify the difference, but others have said they're similar but not identical, and hickory was typical in that pattern for hard-wearing shirts in the period. I seem to recall there was a thread on ticking and hickory in the past.

Edited to add: This is best thread I could find http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8095&page=2 but the difference isn't specifically noted. Was it Terre Lawson who described it, maybe? Is there a difference? How does one tell?

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[Carolann Schmitt]

The classic ticking stripe pattern is a pattern of colored (usually blue) narrow-wide-narrow stripes on a light (white or ivory) ground, as shown in the first photo.

The stripe pattern on hickory cloth is usually a narrow light stripe alternating with a slightly wider dark stripe, as shown in the second photo.

[NoahBriggs]

. . . In talking with the gentleman from the Watchdog, . . .

You probably had the pleasure of chatting up Bill Christen, editor of the Watchdog. The 'Dog is the Consumer Reports of new reenactor products and repros.

Bill and his wife Glenna Jo are yet another pair of professional garbage minds on nineteenth century material culture. They can be reached on their website, The Curiosity Shoppe. Talk with them, visit Liz Clark's website and forum, and you will be in trustworthy hands.

[Secesh]

The shirts were ticking, not hickory. Best regards.