Learning from Photos

[lhsnj]

One of the ways I am wanting to improve my impression is by being able to look at period photos and gather as much info as I can. Unfortunately I don't always know what I am looking for. What is common or what is different.

An example is a photo of my wife's ggg uncle. He was in the 63rd VA, Co C. I wanted to post the photo and see if there was any information that people could gather from it or help me learn from it. It is a simple photo to my eyes as it is just him and not much around him.

In looking at it, I gather it is early in war as his jacket seems quite snug around the mid section compared to the chest. Also I notice it appears to have 6 buttons and an external pocket. I skimmed the Jensen article on depot jackets and it didn't seem to match any of the "images" although it had similiarities to some. Could this be a "commutation" jacket?

What other information can one gather from this picture? Any ideas or help would be greatly appreciated. Hopefully I can learn from this photo and then begin to apply the lesson to other photos.

Thanks

[Eric Burke]

You've got a priceless hairstyle image there, take note of his "unhattedness".

[lhsnj]

Eric

It seems like he may have just taken his hat off as the hair on the side of his head is quite flat compared to the hair a little further down. Although I am not sure if he planned his hair that way.

My father in law, has the same hairstyle and he doesn't do anything to it. So it may be a genetic waviness of the hair. Or quite possibly a cowlick.

Would having a photo without a hat make it seem odd? There are other photos out there without hats.

Anyone have any suggestions about the coat, that I am interested in trying to figure out.

Thanks

[Eric Burke]

Greg,

I guarantee you he fixed his hair before having that photograph taken. It's the 1860s, and you don't often have your "likeness" taken more than once. The wavy hair appearance as well as the flare in the front are all characteristic of what I understand as a period hairstyle. Chances are he spent quite some time preparing his hair for the occasion.

Perhaps someone who knows a little more about period hair than I could help this gentleman out on this? I'll admit, I'm not very fluent in the jacket, etc. area, so I'll leave that to someone else.

[manevin]

Good thread. I have often found that photos are the best way to refute a kindly rebuke about one's appearance. I wear a McDowell brim, which sits differently on the noggin than the common bummer. I have had numerous comments made about the need for it to fall forward, however, I can point to images that show the cap standing up on end. I have been tempted to carry a image in my pocket to give to those who feel the need to tell me that I don't look period. But I keep in pocket only those items necessary for campaign.

Photos demonstrate that there is always the exception to the rule.

Michael Nevin

[10TnVI]

Just some observations-
1- your man apparently doesn't like the feel of cloth on his neck, judging by the way he has worn the collars on his shirt and jacket.
2- It''s interesting that he apparently has two seperate "watch chains" leading into the slash pocket on his right breast. What else is he carring there besides a watch?
3- Looks like he's been spending some time at home or in garrison/ winter quarters before having the photo made.
4- There's something going on at the right bottom of the coat, either a belt buckle or something else attached to the belt is pushing up the lower hem of the jacket.

[lhsnj]

Is it possible that the 2nd watch chain might be a shadow?

I had some further information about this family member:
Riley served in the 63rd. Virginia Infantry; Co. C, CSA. Enlisted
Apr. 1, 1862 at Moc Gap and was present on and off until July, 1864. Nation Archives, Military Service Records, Washington D.C.

Where is Moc Gap?

Also in another sidenote to the family tree it talks of him burying his brother who was a member of the 50th VA Reg after the battle near Fayette Courthouse during the Charleston Campaign. The note mentions that he buried him later that day after the battle.

So could the time and location of enlistment tell us anything about the style of jacket he is wearing?

Thanks for the other observations.

[10TnVI]

I considered a shadow but discarded it for the following reasons-first -the "U" of the lower chain is narrower than the upper, second the upper chain dosen't sit far enough out from the jacket to cast a shadow that far down the front. It's shadow would be very close to almost under it. Third, a light souce strong enough to cast a shadow would have had to be almost directly above and would then cast a similiar shadow on the eyes, nose, etc. Thus, I feel it's safe to say he is wearing two chains.

[dusty27]

Greg, check this link for info on the 63rd and its connection to the 50th.

http://members.aol.com/jweaver300/grayson/63rdva.htm

Company C (Captain Stephen B. Cornutt's Company, also known as the "Marshall Rifles," named for General Humphrey Marshall) was organized April 6, 1862 at Moccasin Gap mainly from Grayson County residents. The Grayson Militia and militias from other southwestern counties were mobilized in early 1862 by Marshall after a Federal incursion at Pound Gap. This was a ruse to obtain further recruits for the Army.

Fateful orders sent down to Grayson County were issued by Colonel Isaac Neff, commanding the 25th Militia Brigade. Special Order No. 1 read:



Headquarters, 25th Brigade Va. Militia Wytheville, Virginia March 24, 1862 You are hereby ordered to report as early as practicable with your command at the old Court House in Russell County, requiring each man to bring with him any private fire arms that he may have--also a part of blankets and change of clothing. Such as can will bring cooking utensils for which they will be paid. You will report to these headquarters your arrival at the place of rondevouse. By Command of Brig. Gen. H. Marshall (Signed) Isaac Neff Col. Commanding 25th Brig. Virginia Militia

Lieutenant Colonel J. W. Vaughn, commanding the 78th Militia Regiment responded on March 25:

In compliance with the above order Commandants of Companys of the 1st Battalion 78 Regiment are hereby ordered to notify their men to assemble at Gregory's Store on Elk Creek Tuesday morning the 1st day of April 1862 by 9 o'clock and in addition to the above equipment they are required to furnish themselves with four days rations. Thence to proceed to join the 2nd Battalion under the command of Major I. M. Young.


The Grayson militia formed all of the original Company C and much of Company G. This company was personally sworn in by General Humphrey Marshall. The company was at Abingdon on May 1, 1862. Thirty-six members of this company were transferred to Co. G, January 17, 1863. Company strength February 29, 1864 was 80 men, not including officers. The company was at Chickamauga, Rocky Face Ridge, Resaca and other important battles in Georgia. It was reported that the company lost 27, killed, wounded or missing in May and June 1864. J. O. Brewer reported, 51 years after the war was over, 30 men "served to the end of the war." This number is high, since official records indicate some of his list could not have served to the end. Officers:

Stephen B. Cornutt, Captain
Joseph Young, 1st Lieutenant
John Blair Waugh, 1st Lieutenant/Captain
Troy H. Spencer, 2nd Lieutenant
Bennett Rector, 2nd Lieutenant/1st Lieutenant
William H. Scott, 2nd Lieutenant
Kenly C. Atkins, 1st Lieutenant
James Nelson Ingoldsby, 2nd Lieutenant

From Weaver, Jeffrey C. 63rd Virginia Infantry, published by H. E. Howard, Inc (http://members.aol.com/jweaver300/grayson/howard.htm)

This series is invaluable to researchers of the Virginia units of the CW. For no other reason than the bibliographies in each one.

[Texian]

The photo is also a nice example of clothing not perfectly fitting. The coat appears a little snug with both the button-edge and buttonhole-edge taking on a more curvy shape than it probably had when first made.
---Ed

[yeoman]

Sir, I see this is an older thread but if I may add a bit. My first thought was possibly its his cone picker on a chain. Thats my two cents and thanks for sharing your families image of ggg uncle.

[roundshot]

His jacket is the so called Wytheville Depot pattern, often seen on photos of soldiers whose units originated in the western part of VA. Here's a photo of the real item.

[Andrew Kasmar]

Hi,

Besides for the amount of buttons on the jacket; what is the difference between this pattern, and the Richmond Depot II ? If I wanted to sew one of these jackets could I use a Richmond Depot pattern. Also what type of buttons are on the jacket? When was this jacket used during the Civil War. Thanks.

[roundshot]

I am not a tailor by trade (but pretty good in my own right). Having never personally examined one of these I cannot comment on the nuances. The external pocket is one major difference from the RD. Jacket "cut" is also different. Buttons on this are VA state seal. Some "less than" AC approved vendors make "interpretations" of this jacket. Just Google Wytheville Depot and see what you get. "Mileage may vary" as some of the more articulate sages on here say.

[Andrew Kasmar]

Hi,

Thanks for the information on the jacket.

[lhsnj]

His jacket is the so called Wytheville Depot pattern, often seen on photos of soldiers whose units originated in the western part of VA. Here's a photo of the real item.

Thanks for the new information on the jacket. I found the regimental history book on the 63rd VA while at the Farnsworth bookstore this weekend, but didn't pick it up.

I did look up Riley in it. And found they had him listed as having deserted 2 times. And also owing the CS Gov't 15.08$ for transportation.

A kin of his Solomon owed the gov't the same 15.08$ for transportation and 39$ for lost ordnance.

[yeoman]

Sir, as I was reading some letters to home,http://docsouth.unc.edu/fpn/battle/lee.html#lelee37 page 86, this passage gave me an after thought, if I may quote, "P.S. Write often and tell me all the news about home. Wrap my watch up very securely and direct it to me. Don't forget a key for it, as I have none". My after thought is the second chain is perhaps the key chain. Another two cents, thanks.

[Danny]

I considered a shadow but discarded it for the following reasons-first -the "U" of the lower chain is narrower than the upper, second the upper chain dosen't sit far enough out from the jacket to cast a shadow that far down the front. It's shadow would be very close to almost under it. Third, a light souce strong enough to cast a shadow would have had to be almost directly above and would then cast a similiar shadow on the eyes, nose, etc. Thus, I feel it's safe to say he is wearing two chains.

See slightly enhanced of that keychain area attached here. After all, isn't it a shadow of the chain above it? The "U" appears narrower only because of a wider, top-down light source (an upper or roof window typical of a studio at the time) producing a narrower and lengthened shadow of objects in it's path. Easy to recreate if you wanted to recreate the effect - go to an atrium.

The light source may have been strong but was general. This was not a flash-pan photo but a natural light extended exposure, in real life not as defined as the contrasty print makes it seem. It's a slight expression of what's called "posterization" today.

Also, if that shadow were a "second chain", it has no logical destination to a button hole if you follow the curve of it. In fact doesn't it merely merge into the large fold shadow caused by the stress of the fabric between two buttons?

How cool you have this photo to treasure.

Dan Wykes

[Prodical Reb]

Could it be the tools for a flintlock rather than a watch chain. As I recall there was a flash-hole pick and a brush at the end of the chains.

[Andrew Kasmar]

Hi,

That is an interesting thought Mr. Phillips.

[Danny]

...It''s interesting that he apparently has two seperate "watch chains" leading into the slash pocket on his right breast. What else is he carring there besides a watch?

...My first thought was possibly its his cone picker on a chain...

...Could it be the tools for a flintlock rather than a watch chain. As I recall there was a flash-hole pick and a brush at the end of the chains.

... Long watch chains or double chian for the watch and a pendant fob are a minor fashion of the Period and appear in a number of civilian photos (this is the first time I have seen the fashion on a soldier's jacket...Curt

Wow, boys I'm still lookin' for that second chain... ;)

Dan Wykes

[6Pdr]

In what collection is that Wytheville Depot Jacket dispalyed?

[yeoman]

Sir, I do not think this response will add to this thread but here goes. You are probably correct about this "shadow" and it is more than likely a watch on the "chain". I posted #11 on this thread some four years after post #10 and that was my two cents. I also posted #17, perhaps I should have stated my after thought was, where would he keep his watch key. Also my two cents. Your first post was considered but whats the point of your gibe in the second? Your quote "Wow, I'm still lookin' for that chain. Got any more of that hooch?..." My after thought to bringing up this old thread is Greg got some info on the make of the jacket, my two cents.

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

Long watch chains or double chian for the watch and a pendant fob are a minor fashion of the Period and appear in a number of civilian photos (this is the first time I have seen the fashion on a soldier's jacket).

Typically, the watch was kept in one vest pocket, the chain passing through a button hole, the fob on the other end of the chain or pendant chain kept in the other pocket, and the chain allowed to "droop" on either side.

Curt

[Danny]

...You are probably correct about this "shadow" and it is more than likely a watch on the "chain"... My after thought to bringing up this old thread is Greg got some info on the make of the jacket, my two cents.

Mel, Curt - small point but since the very title of the thread is "Learning From Photos" please allow me to press the point. Let's ignore any professional experience I might have in this area, and I do have that. The best analysis would come from a modern-day tin plate, natural light photographer - know any that can comment here?

I still recommend the whole idea of a second chain in this particular photo defies simple vision and verifiable analysis. For the draftsmen here, print it out really big and extend the arc of the lower "chain" on it's logical path. It attaches nowhere. Further logic and understanding of light and material tells you that if it were a second chain it would at least somewhere along it's length catch some light were it metal as expected it would be. Another factor is to see that if it were a second chain, it leaves the vest pocket slit at EXACTLY the same point as the first chain, not laying adjacent or some fractions of an inch away as would be expected. Again, we all have vests, this is verifiable. Also verifiable is to recreate the type of upper lighting, an atrium will do, and see how the loop of a chain is rendered in its shadow below - as a steeper arc.

After all said and done I agree the I.D. on the jacket is of the most value.

Dan Wykes

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

I am not making a point about the presence or absence of a double watch chain on the image. I was just pointing out the sometimes Period fashion and socio-economic statement of wearing a double chain with the watch on one and a "fob" type device in the form of a pendant, charm, small folding knife, or commonly the wind key on the other.

Just to further the discussion, would someone enlarge and play with the intensity of the lighting, contrast, and shadows of the chain are of the image.
I can do it on Photo Shop, but when I go to save the enlarged edited version, what is saved is just the original size image. Sigh.

Thanks!

Curt
Luddite Mess

[roundshot]

As far as the jacket provenance, the photo was first posted on this thread which gives its current location:
http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9472&highlight=Wytheville

[6Pdr]

Thank you sir. What is the "AHC"?

[LibertyHallVols]

Thank you sir. What is the "AHC"?

Atlanta History Center
...don'cha love all the acronyms? :wink_smil

[Prodical Reb]

Wow, boys I'm still lookin' for that second chain... ;)

Dan Wykes

See slightly enhanced of that keychain area attached here. After all, isn't it a shadow of the chain above it? The "U" appears narrower only because of a wider, top-down light source (an upper or roof window typical of a studio at the time) producing a narrower and lengthened shadow of objects in it's path. Easy to recreate if you wanted to recreate the effect - go to an atrium.

The light source may have been strong but was general. This was not a flash-pan photo but a natural light extended exposure, in real life not as defined as the contrasty print makes it seem. It's a slight expression of what's called "posterization" today.

Also, if that shadow were a "second chain", it has no logical destination to a button hole if you follow the curve of it. In fact doesn't it merely merge into the large fold shadow caused by the stress of the fabric between two buttons?...

Dan Wykes

Both chains start at the same location. The angle of the bottom U leads straight to the same button hole. I would surmize that both are held in place by the same bar in the button hole. the shorter U has the watch attached because it is all the way at the bottom of the pocket. Pulled there by the weight of the watch.

The longer looking U has either a fob or key for winding the watch because it doesn't go all the way to the bottom as it is nowhere near as heavy as the watch. It is just tucked in the pocket for safe keeping.

as far as ending, I can't tell because of the poor lighting/quality of the photo area by the vest pocket.

Is it possible that the 2nd watch chain might be a shadow?

I considered a shadow but discarded it for the following reasons-first -the "U" of the lower chain is narrower than the upper, second the upper chain dosen't sit far enough out from the jacket to cast a shadow that far down the front. It's shadow would be very close to almost under it. Third, a light souce strong enough to cast a shadow would have had to be almost directly above and would then cast a similiar shadow on the eyes, nose, etc. Thus, I feel it's safe to say he is wearing two chains.

I agree with 10TnVI. Unless a shadow can cast a another shadow there is a 2nd chain or braid there. If you look at each of the U's formed by the 2 rope like objects hanging each one has its own shadow under it; look for the dark/black areas behind each U.

Further logic and understanding of light and material tells you that if it were a second chain it would at least somewhere along it's length catch some light were it metal as expected it would be...

Dan Wykes

Danny,
watch chains were also made by twisting like rope or braiding a strand of loved ones hair or made with horse hair in the same fashion. So it may not be made of metal which would not reflect light at some point.

Also after looking at some other photos of Cone pricks and brush sets, the chain doesn't look anything like the sets issued by the gov't, so gov't issued cone prick and brush for flintlock musket set can be discarded as a possibilty.

[6Pdr]

Thank you Mr. Wickett!

[Danny]

Both chains start at the same location. The angle of the bottom U leads straight to the same button hole. I would surmize that both are held in place by the same bar in the button hole. the shorter U has the watch attached because it is all the way at the bottom of the pocket. Pulled there by the weight of the watch...The longer looking U has either a fob or key for winding the watch because it doesn't go all the way to the bottom as it is nowhere near as heavy as the watch. It is just tucked in the pocket for safe keeping... I agree with 10TnVI. Unless a shadow can cast a another shadow there is a 2nd chain or braid there. If you look at each of the U's formed by the 2 rope like objects hanging each one has its own shadow under it; look for the dark/black areas behind each U... watch chains were also made by twisting like rope or braiding a strand of loved ones hair or made with horse hair in the same fashion. So it may not be made of metal which would not reflect light at some point...

Michael, two flags here.

First of all can't you see how much work it takes to make the two chain thing work, and doesn't that throw up a flag for you? Without any actual visual in the photo you need to (a) add a bar and then (b) a watch, and then (c) assign the watch some considerable weight, and then (d) add a key, and then (e) change what everyone was calling a chain into hair, and then (f) braid the hair and then (g) add a shadow to disprove a shadow. Whew...

The second flag for me anyway is the tendency that's developed in this thread; that somehow it's disappointing if there is only one chain, as if there's more value to the image if the subject wears two chains. Let's be honest about that.

And why spite or ignore something that's so easy to verify by recreating the circumstance? So the challenge remains to try to make two chains exit the top edge of pocket slit at exactly the same point, rather than adjacent (either side of each other) without a great amount of fussing to make it so (again, be honest about it). Keep in mind the chains or braids are attached to two supposedly separate and differently-shaped and differently-weighted objects resting a distance below the top edge of the pocket.

That top-lighting effect can also be verified but I grant you it may not be worth all the effort for so small a point.

Despite the effort to trivialize the chain discussion it actually does have merit because we're discussing the exact type of process and tools we should be discussing if we are to learn from photos. The whole jacket type/source thing, as useful as it is, isn't more important than the chain discussion. After all, stitches are counted.

Dan Wykes

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

In the absence of our ability to verify the reality, we are left with only perceptions. And perceptions based upon observation and opinion. Short of attempting to duplicate the effect without having the ability to know what the watch, chain or chains, or fob/pendant was...
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y104/Michael1787/Optic.jpg

Curt