would enlisted men still be seen wearing Kepi's after the war?

[civil war railroader]

I did not know if the government required them and / or the rest of the uniform to be turned back in or if they kept them because they were probably so worn out.

Mark Phillips
Civil War Railroader
Frederick, MD

[markj]

I did not know if the government required them and / or the rest of the uniform to be turned back in or if they kept them because they were probably so worn out.

Mark Phillips
Civil War Railroader
Frederick, MD

Short answer: yes, depending on the individual. Why would the government want a nasty, well-worn cap back especially if it still had thousands of unissued caps filling up warehouses? My local county historical society has two Federal caps in its collection (one of them ID'd), both of which were apparently brought back home by their owners.

Indeed, Uncle Sammie started auctioning off surplus clothing, arms, and equipment within weeks of the war's end. The New York Times is full of ads for military surplus auctions beginning in the late spring of 1865. I'll have to dig it up, but the War Department definitely issued a directive permitting troops to retain certain items free of charge after their discharge or, at most, after paying a reduced price for them. For example, the price charged to troops for their Spencer rifles was, I believe, around $14.

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[tmattimore]

By April 15 the War Dept issued orders that all goods in transit or on hand not yet paid for were to be returned to the manufacturer and all clothing contracts cancelled. For example Seth Bryant of Lynn Mass. had 60,000 pair of Brogans returned to him.
(Shoe and Leather Trade for 100 years, Ashmont Mass. 1891 by Seth Bryant)
Tom

[KathyBradford]

Here's a picture of GG Grandfather George Washington Presler following the War. He served in the 178th OVI, Co. G. Although his two older brothers, Samuel and Simon from the 21st OVI, Co. F., had already been killed, he enlisted at the age of 16 and made it in for the last 9 months. He was in Washington for the Grand Review.

I've been told that he's wearing a kepi and a G.A.R. medal. Any insights?

[kevin]

Hello,
I have heard (but am not sure of the validity) that the U.S gov't issued Civil War sack coats to German POW's in prison camps like Fort Niagara and Geneseo during WWII. From what I heard, they were still left over from 1865 when the war ended, just sitting in gov't warehouse's. Like I said though, i'm not sure of the validity of that story. It does make you wonder though: did all of the left over sack coats get issued to the POW's or are there yet still Civil War sack coats sitting in some warehouse forgotten. If there are, I'd sure like to take them off Uncle Sam's hands for him!

[Danny]

Here's a picture of GG Grandfather George Washington Presler following the War... Any insights?

Definitely the first man photographed using a cell phone!

I agree, it looks like G.A.R. kepi and medal. You could contact Sons of Union Veterans, (Advanced Google that organization name with the major city name nearest where your GGG lived). They often have a track on the G.A.R. post records, so it's possible you could find more photos of your GGG in the legacy G.A.R. post files.

- Dan

[Secesh]

I, too, have heard the tale of German POW'S wearing surplus Civil War jackets, only the tale here is that they were No. Carolina issued CS shell jackets...I have never seen photos of POW's wearing either, nor to my knowledge have any ( neither Union nor Confederate) surfaced with "POW" stenciled on the backs. I believe this is just another reenacting tall tale. Best regards.

[markj]

Hello,
I have heard (but am not sure of the validity) that the U.S gov't issued Civil War sack coats to German POW's in prison camps like Fort Niagara and Geneseo during WWII. From what I heard, they were still left over from 1865 when the war ended, just sitting in gov't warehouse's. Like I said though, i'm not sure of the validity of that story. It does make you wonder though: did all of the left over sack coats get issued to the POW's or are there yet still Civil War sack coats sitting in some warehouse forgotten. If there are, I'd sure like to take them off Uncle Sam's hands for him!

The story you mentioned is an urban reenactor legend. Look around enough and you'll find different variations of this tale including claims that "Confederate jackets" were hauled out of warehouses and issued to German POWs in North Carolina. Never mind that the U. S. supply system was more than up to the task of clothing German prisoners who didn't begin to arrive in CONUS in large numbers until at least early 1943 (i.e., in the wake of Operation Torch, the U.S. invasion of French North Africa). Also note that, initially, most POW camps set up for Axis prisoners were located in the South precisely to cut down on heating expenses in prisoner barracks. Furthermore, I think it's safe to say that German POWs were, on the whole, very thrifty and kept their existing uniforms in as good a repair as possible. I don't ever recall seeing photos of WW II German POWs in American camps willfully wearing raggedy clothing--they'd have caught hell from their superiors. I have attached an interesting (if perhaps a bit biased) report from the NYT, which you might find interesting.

Interestingly, there is documentation for Confederate-style clothing, actually produced by Northern contractors, being issued to Southern POWs. I believe we discussed this on a different thread several years ago.

A sizeable portion of Wilder's Lightning Brigade was also provided Confederate uniforms at the end of the war. Corporal William H. Records, Company I, 72nd Indiana Volunteer Infantry (Mounted), wrote the following from Macon, Georgia on 18 May 1865:

Well Since we have been here, we have had to live on the abomniable “Johnys fare a part of the time without Coffee, but now we are getting rations from Savannah. they come to August by boats, & by R.R. to Atlanta, and then down here – a great many of our men were in need [of] clothes when we got here and our Q. M.s took possession of the Rebel clothing on hands at this place and issued it and now half the command is wearing more or less Rebel clothes =

If anybody can find solid documentation for Axis POWs being issued old Civil War uniforms, I'd love to know. I've got a ten-spot that says there isn't any.

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[guad42]

As to the German POWs, I believe most of them were issued the indigo blue denim fatigues common to US troops prior to the onset of the war. These uniforms were replaced by the HBT green utilities. I have seen original examples of these with PW painted in white on the back. I am not sure about the use of CW era uniforms for WWII Pows.

In the 1870s and 1880s many surplus items were issued to Indian Police and Scouts. The army itself has adopted the 5 button blouse in 1872 or so, but issued the Native personnel the surplus items.

A southwest historian once told me that contrary to what movies show us, most folks did not wear their old kepis and coats out in the frontier after the war. He also suggested that laws may have been made prohibiting this, or at least wearing of buttons, rank and other insignia.

I recently discovered an original tintype in an antique store. It's a portrait of a young man in what really appears to be a four button sack. He's wearing a most unusual winter hat on his head. It's anyone's guess if it's from the war. If I can I will post the image at a later time.

Sam Kilborn Dolan

[mtvernon]

I've been told that he's wearing a kepi and a G.A.R. medal. Any insights?

It's grainy, but I'm not sure it's a G.A.R. medal per se. If it is, it could be a delegate badge to a G.A.R. encampment. These didn't begin until 1866, but here's one I found from 1926. I'm not sure how far back this form was used, however.

Anyone else know?

[JWolf]

From reading the inscriptions on the medal and ribbon it looks to me to be a delegate medal from Michigan's state encampment held in June of 1926.

It's not the national encampment; that was held in Des Moines, Iowa, in September of 1926. see link :

http://suvcw.org/garcinc/officers1866-1949.pdf

The GAR Member medal's design was similiar to the Civil War era Medal of Honor. See the attachments for the GAR Member medal, the Civil War era Army MOH and Civil War era Navy MOH.

The MOH was changed during different points in the early 1900s for the Army and Navy and those designs look more like the current MOH medal. see link for complete history of the different designs of the MOH.

http://www.homeofheroes.com/moh/history/history_images.html

Jim Wolf
Charles H. Huntley Camp #114
Dept. of Iowa
SUVCW

[KathyBradford]

It's grainy, but I'm not sure it's a G.A.R. medal per se. If it is, it could be a delegate badge to a G.A.R. encampment. These didn't begin until 1866, but here's one I found from 1926. I'm not sure how far back this form was used, however.

From reading the inscriptions on the medal and ribbon it looks to me to be a delegate medal from Michigan's state encampment held in June of 1926.


What an eye, men! After the War, he moved to Michigan where he lived to the ripe old age of 80 in 1928.

In the picture, he looks much like he does in a family photo taken in his advanced years. From this, it's hard to tell that he was 6'3" tall. My mother-in-law remembers him as a strapping man who towered above all the neighbors. Perhaps it had something to do with all the good Army food he had while he was still growing.

[Farmboy]

Haven't you seen the old western movies where some old coot is hanging around the saloon in his old kepi?
Old Uncle Bill, went off to the war and never was quite right after that.
I had a bush hat I wore in Vietnam that I used to wear cause I liked it.
I used to use that story for an anology. Got some funny looks.

[jchristiansen]

During the military occupation of the South during Reconstruction, many Military Deaprtments issued orders which forbade former Confederate soldiers from wearing elements of their uniforms. Buttons in particular were supposed to be removed. See DeForest, "A Union Officer in the Reconstruction."

As far as what Federal troops walked home with at war's end, I've seen everything from turning everything back in to keeping it all. Regarding the reference to the southwestern historian that said that uniform items weren't worn out west, this might have had something to do with the low regard in which professional enlisted soldiers were held in society in 19th century peacetime. Soldiers were seen as troublemakers and neer-do-wells, and the army was thought of as a haven for wanted criminals.

[Johnny Lloyd]

To all-
As a further analogy: I really still sometimes wear my patrol cap from the Iraq War last year, but only when out in my knockaround clothing. It is perfect when out fishing. Of course, you have to remember that these men (meaning Confederates) were "criminals" that had been "pardoned" after the war. Knowing this, I don't think many of those that wore the grey in the South could, due to regulation or would have wore their uniforms in public anyway- perhaps only at UCV conferences/reunions when the crowd condoned it.
In the North, I think these boys wanted to put the war behind them as much as possible and move on with life... as we veterans must do. :confused:
That is, unless they didn't have a hat for some reason and needed to use their old cap.

:cool:

I suppose in the next 150 years, it will be found in someone's attic/living cube, put on E-MEGA-BAY, and sold for 1000 credits as a "genuine 150-year old relic of the Iraq War belonging to some war volunteer officer and seen once in Echoes of Glory version 9.0 online. "
Perhaps some unwitting Iraq War reenactor will be wearing it (instead of his helmet like he should be at all times in combat off the FOB!) on the 150th battle of Ramadi reenactment somewhere in the New Kansas/Fallout Region desert, thinking it was a high-quality reproduction someone other than him bought off of an "AC approved" vendor. :p

You laugh... but it will happen.

Just some humor. Smile... :D- Johnny ;)

[Cal Kinzer]

Mark:
In answer to your original question, Union enlisted men would have kept their clothing items because they belonged to them. Each soldier was given an annual clothing allowance of $42.00, with which he would purchase his hat, cap, overcoat, coat, trousers, shoes, and underclothing (shirt, drawers and socks). Once these items were drawn, they became the personal property of the soldier, and he could do anything with them except sell them - including making modifications within reason and in accordance with Army regulations.

Arms, accouterments and field equipments were a different matter, as these remained government property, and had to be accounted for (or paid for if lost or destroyed through negligence). These items included insignia; so, for example, the rather strange fact was that, while a dress hat might be the property of the soldier, the "E Pluribus Unum" badge and infantry bugle, regimental number, company letter and feather, still belonged to Uncle Sam, and "uncle" was very stingy with his stuff. If a soldier lost one of these items, or it was destroyed and the loss could not be accounted for as the result of combat or some other legitimate duty, his company commander was personally liable, and would usually take it out of his next pay (whenever it finally arrived!).

The Columbia Rifles Research Compendium, Vol. 1 contains a very good article by John Tobey which explains how this system worked, and also gives a listing of the approximate prices paid by Union soldiers for each item they used. Understanding how Billy Yank got his stuff helps explain, for example, why they were reluctant to draw more expensive items, like dress coats or boots, and also why they didn't bother with unnecessary ones, such as ornamentation on field hats or forage caps, unless required to do so. Some soldiers spent as much as half their annual allowance on shoes; and if they overdrew their account, the balance came out of their pay. If, on the other hand, they were able to underdraw, the savings was credited to their pay.

At war's end, the U.S. Army apparently tried to recoup some of its expenses by offering to let the veterans purchase their arms, accouterments and field equipments. Some did, while others wanted nothing to do with those traps they'd been lugging around for so long. A story in my family says that my great-great grandfather, Reuben J. Fairbanks, brought home the Enfield rifle he'd carried as the first sergeant of Co. F, 60th New York Infantry. It's supposedly still floating around somewhere amongst the branches of our family tree, but just exactly who has it is unknown to me. I'd certainly give my eye teeth to get my hands on it!

Cal Kinzer
Hardcracker Mess

[WoodenNutmeg]

By April 15 the War Dept issued orders that all goods in transit or on hand not yet paid for were to be returned to the manufacturer and all clothing contracts canceled. For example Seth Bryant of Lynn Mass. had 60,000 pair of Brogans returned to him.

Ouch. That's a package I bet he wished he could have refused.

Pvt. Bryan O'Keefe, Esquire

[CheeseBoxRaft]

This topic reminds me of Winslow Homer's 1865 painting called "The Veteran in a New Field" which shows a farmer cutting wheat. If you look at the lower right hand corner you'll see his issue sackcoat and a canteen laying on the ground.

http://www.metmuseum.org/TOAH/images/hb/hb_67.187.131.jpg

Homer always took his subject matter from life, but the painting is also allegorical. The farmer has returned to mowing wheat leaving his former career of "mowing-down men" behind him. Hard to see in this image but there is a 2nd Corps, 1st Division badge sewn onto the canteen. Considered a masterpiece today, the picture got poor reviews in 1865 because it was felt the wheat was unrealistically tall and because sythes were not generally used for cutting wheat, but that's part of the painting's symbolism. Wheat symbolises human life and the acting of mowing reflects descriptions we've all read of lines of men being cut down on the battlefield as with a scythe.

- Tom Green

[Dreamer42]

Homer is one of my all-time favorite artists. Most feel the (French) Impressionists were experts at capturing light, but I feel Homer does it so masterfully that he is often over-looked. In addition to the conceptual symbolism, notice the farmer has his back to the canteen and coat and felled wheat. Maybe yet another hint at leaving the past behind him and pressing on towards harvesting "life" (still standing wheat) rather than death (wheat laying on the ground). Just my .02

- Jay Reid
9th Texas

[mtvernon]

http://www.metmuseum.org/TOAH/images/hb/hb_67.187.131.jpg



A real 'swords to plowshares' moment, eh? I have loved this painting and have tried to find a decent reproduction (Is that farby? I don't think I can afford the original). Any insight?

[mtvernon]

What an eye, men!

Honestly, it was the first 0ne I found, so complete serendipity is owed the complement!

[Charles Heath]

I have loved this painting and have tried to find a decent reproduction...I don't think I can afford the original). Any insight?

Joe,

Prints for sale can be found online on paper or canvas.

[CheeseBoxRaft]

I have loved this painting and have tried to find a decent reproduction ...... Any insight?

Canvas.com offers a hand-painted repro for $150.00 here: http://www.canvaz.com/gallery/959.htm

A giclee canvas reprint can be had here for about $75.00 U.S. dollars:
http://www.fineartprintsondemand.com/artists/homer/57532

- Tom Green