20th TN Uniform discussion

[CJDaley]

As a Western Confederates wouldn't you embrace the joy of the havelock? They aren't just for Eastern Feds in 1861 anymore.

What about Corporal Arthur M. Horton who served with the 41st Georgia? He enlisted on March 4, 1862 and was Captured and paroled at Vicksburg. At some point during this service he wore a havelock that now resides at the Gettysburg Visitor's Center.

So, it's Confederate, it's Western Theater and it's 1862...why not wear one?

BTW: I have an image of Horton someplace here that I'll try to find and scan in for you all to enjoy.

[LWhite64]

To add to what Chris was saying, I have seen the letters of an officer in Stovall's Brigade, which the 41st was part of, refering to his painted cloth havelock at Vicksburg and that he had a plain cloth one during the Atlanta Campaign. He is an officer, but some were still being used.

Lee

[Daryl Black]

Doug,

Given that several other contemporary descriptions of the ATN at the time support Freemantle's observation I think we must take him at his word. See Arliskas' book for the most accessible versions of the descriptions. I believe he posted most of them in the Chickamauga event folder. Lee White also posted several (if not all) of the descriptions in the same folder. You can also see Robert Masten Holmes' (Walthall's brigade) descriptions of heavy shipments of clothes from home during the same period -- can't remember the title of the published version of his letters but can provide it if you'd like.

Daryl

[Mississippian]

Holmes book is called "Kemper County Rebel" it's a very interesting read. It's just too bad it only spans from Nov. '62 to June '63. One highlight that I recall is that they were issued new clothes just a few days before Stones River.

Will MacDonald

[Daryl Black]

Will,

Thanks for the citation -- had just logged on to post it. It is a dandy little book. Another look at the influx of homemade clothes can be glimpsed in Joshua Callaway's letters -- 28th Alabama, I believe. Not an overwhelming number of references but some good ones -- seems that at one point Callaway was lending clothes his wife sent him to other soldiers in the company. Published version of the letters put out by the University of GA Press.

[Mississippian]

No problem, I first found the book in the Grenada County Library while I was in High School and I loved it. I think university library might have it, I think it might be time to read it again.....

Will MacDonald

[Mississippian]

I went and checked out Holmes diary from the library today and have been going over it. Regarding clothing, it seems that the government clothing supply was pretty regular pre-Stones River, some clothing being issued to his regiment about once a month it seems. Nov. 16th 1862: "A great many of the troops have recieved their uniforms for the winter and perhaps we will draw before many days."
He was correct, because on Nov. 20th he notes a clothing and blanket issue to his regiment. On Nov. 30th he writes: ".... and we returning back to camps found that Cousin Thomas Rush and some other men with him had reached camps and brought us the (???) most of them their winter clothing it coasting us only the exspences of it from there to this place."

And on Christmas Day 1862 he writes: "There was a little clothing given out to the men today which is surposed to be the last they will get for a good while, it seems that the troops are very well supplied with clothing."
However, about two months later on Feb 15th 1863 he writes: "Today is Sunday and at about dinner time one of the co. came in, bringing us letters & several of us some clothing, which I was very glad to get as my clothing had nearly worn out, we were also very glad to hear from our parents & friends at home."

Not that my opinion really matters, but from what I've read from this and other sources, the AoT was getting a major influx of supplies (from the government and home) in the 6 weeks before Stones River, so a good mix of C.S. issue and civilian clothing would be appropriate. Maybe even some of the early Columbus Depot jackets would be seen in the ranks as well.

Will MacDonald

[coastaltrash]

Will,
Thank you for the quotes, wish you could make it out to this one!

[CYoungJSU]

Just a thought...
Has anyone researched the company commander's files in the CSR's for Company C of the 20th TN? The library at Wallace State College in Hanceville, AL, has them I know, but it is a few hours drive from Jacksonville State University. Maybe someone in Tennessee or near Wallace could take a look at the company requisitions. Although requisitions will probably not tell you specific types of clothing issued, they will give you the numbers of coats, jackets, trousers, etc. issued.

CY

[Bushrod Carter]

CY,

That is a great idea!

Also, if Landrum new anyone in the Nashville area that visits the State Archives (Jerry Hughes - cough, cough) we should see if the ORIGINAL company books are deposit there. I know, in years past, we get A LOT of GREAT info out of the company books of Co. C, 2nd Tenn. Infantry that are in the State Archives.

If the State has these original records books, they would answer most of these questions being asked!

[coastaltrash]

Sounds like an event organizers job to me.

[Daryl Black]

Has anyone jumped on the research suggestion from Chris? If not, I can take an hour or two and head over to the Chattanooga library -- they have the TN CSRs. Just to be clear, we are looking for late 1862 material?

[Coatsy]

Gents,

According to the WIG website and last time I checked Company "C" is n0t being recreated. Companies A, D, and F of the 20th Tn are being recreated for the event. I think everyone would be wise to stick to the guidelines posted by the event organziers and the company commader's request as well.

[Daryl Black]

So has anyone looked at those CSRs? I don't want to duplicate another's efforts.

[CYoungJSU]

No matter what company is being portrayed, the CSRs would be a great place to get some sort of idea concerning equipment in use by these troops. Also, like Pat said, it would not be a bad idea to head over to Nashville if at all possible and take a look at the company books they may have on hand there. Daryl, I have found out that the Gadsden Public library in Gadsden, AL, has TN CSRs, but like you, I do not want to duplicate what someone else may have already researched.

CY

[Daryl Black]

I intend to spend a couple of hours at the Chattanooga library tomorrow. Will post initial findings after lunch.

[CYoungJSU]

I completely agree and this probably should have been studied prior to the end of August. As I said, I really don't have a "dog in this fight" since I am not attending, but as a historian, I believe it is a very valid point. When I was a novice in this hobby, I believed that guidelines were there as a preference to what uniform coat, trousers, etc. were to be worn; I believed number one was the first option, number two the second option and so on, no questions asked. Fortunately, I decided to major in history and learned, sometimes to my chagrin, how to do in depth research. When one really begins researching company requisitions, misc. officer's papers, etc. in the libraries and archives, one gets a completely different view of just how un-uniformed things really were, especially in AoT units. For example, the "official" Chickamauga guidelines(Lee, I know your name is on them, but I believe you would agree) state that option one is a Columbus Depot Jacket, but as we have found over the past several years, clothing from home was prevalent in the majority of units, especially those areas not under Federal control. If we really want to try and portray units during specific seasons, engagements, etc., we need to look at both the qualitative and the quantitative data that is out there (i.e. company requisitions, diaries, letters, ordinance returns, etc.). I have noticed that the hobby has become so fluid that one needs to purchase varying uniforms to "fit" a specific persona during varying scenarios. Unfortunately, the majority of reenactors are not historically minded when it comes to research. Therefore, historians are there to assist in the guidance from unit portrayal to unit portrayal. In my honest opinion, once sufficient research is been completed, "guidelines" should be formed based upon that research and possibly placed in paragraph form, explaining how the information was obtained; a little biography, if you will. For example, if I find that on May 20, 1863, Company I of the 6th Arkansas received 30 jackets, 15 pairs of trousers, etc., I would probably surmise that the likelihood of these jackets being of the Columbus Depot pattern is relatively high. Therefore, I would suggest that the majority of men attending an event portraying the Arkies at Liberty Gap in June of 1863 should be wearing that pattern jacket. To me, substance (why is this option one, two, etc.) is a lot more understandable than a simple list. This will make researching for events more time consuming, but I believe it will be a major pay off in the end as learning will be achieved. This is just a humble suggestion from a humble historian. Thanks for listening to my diatribe, which has been festering since my summers a seasonal public historian at Chickamauga/Chattanooga NMP and has continued to this day. If you all have not ascertained as of yet, I am an ISTJ according to Myers-Briggs and am a stickler for details...my bad.

[CYoungJSU]

By no means do I want to purchase a different uniform for each event, I definately do not have that much money laying around. It has just been my observation that events are getting more "intense," for the lack of a better word,when it comes to changing personas in order to fit the specific period or engagement being portrayed. In my opinion, it does not seem to be as generic and even more varied equipment is required now to meet more strenuous "standards" than there were several years ago. With that impression in mind, I believed my previous post was warranted. I tell you, events put on by members associated with this forum can get nothing but better though. I do know that for a fact!!

[Daryl Black]

Pat,

I agree that reinventing the wheel is a fruitless endeavor. However, it seems that in many cases we can learn a good bit about the specifics of the Confederate experience by taking some time to delve into the conditions we are trying to replicate. Anyone look at the 20th's regimental before these guidelines were constructed? What about the regiment's trip through Mississippi as they moved back to reunite with Bragg? What about the numerous visits home by the men during November 1862? What about the robbing of the 45th Tennessee of camp? I point these things out not as negative reflections on the event coordinators but as examples of how a brief review of fairly readily available sources can nuance our attempts to replicate specific times and specific units. There are willing and talented hands around who have done the research and have deep AND broad knowledge.

Looks like a soggy walk to the library today so it'll likely be Monday before I can get to the CSRs. But I'll get to them eventually and get the information out.

[paulcalloway]

I've moved some of the posts from Pat Landrum's guidelines for the impression of the 20th TN at the upcoming Outpost event and put them in this thread.

[Daryl Black]

Thanks Paul. I think this is a pretty important thread and gets at the changing nature of what we are doing. The desire on the part of many to replicate specific times and units really demands detailed research. Much of that research has been done -- some in available form -- Tom's book; some is not so readily available -- Lee White's work on the ATN comes to mind. In the case of the unpublished work, simply asking for a run down works. Get Lee talking about this and you'll be hard pressed to get him to stop. Others, both active, semi-active, and inactive in the hobby side of things have done very solid work. From my long experience these folks love to talk about their research and share their findings. A brief look at the acknowledgements page in Tom's book is a whose who in old-time reenactors/living historians whose interest in Civil War material culture and replicating it has pushed our understanding of "what they looked like."

Perhaps this is a good time to think about what we know, how we know it, and how much more work there is to be done. Of course the corallary to this is how do we put this knowledge into effect? My own sense is that having a living history material culture time-line would be helpful. By making the general trends in clothing supply more clearly understandable we'll be able to more accurately portray what we say we are portraying. I'm a fan of an idea Patrick Lewis and Lee White came up with. Find and regularly portray units that are well documented; organize what we know of their supply for specific times; create a set of guidelines that reflects our best considered conclusions about ratios of different types of clothing; based on this give them a ranking for every 10 men (3/10 frock coats, 4/10 homemade clothes, 3/10 army issue clothes); provide footnote/references for the ratios.

Well, enough for now. I'll get some materials gathered from the 20th TN CSRs early next week.

[unclefrank]

Sir, while you are at it, could you possible check on the 20th Tenn records, if there are any, for the Mill Springs peroid?

[Daryl Black]

Frank,

I'll try to look at the early stuff. Anything in particular you seek?

[CYoungJSU]

Very good idea Daryl, I fully support the research of a well documented unit and recreating that unit over different periods.

CY

[Daryl Black]

CY,

I think we (meaning those of us in N. GA and Middle TN) can actually come up with several units to create such a profile. Much work has been done over the last 14 years that provides really good material culture profiles.

[unclefrank]

Hey Daryl,

I'm very curious to see if Short Jackets and Kepi style caps were present in the ranks that early. Thank you for your efforts.

[threepdr]

Although I'm not an active participant much these days, I'd love to hear what Daryl and others find on the 20th TN, especially Company C. My G-G-Grandad, Willis Whitwell, was a LT in Company C so the unit holds a special place for me.

He left the unit in May "62 when he got "un-elected" during the big reorganization of the AOT.

Thanks

Mark Hubbs
Huntsville, AL

[Daryl Black]

Hey Mark,

Sounds like we need to do a big project on the 20th. The regimental is pretty good and if I recall correctly from some work in their CSRs we'll find a good bit of material in them. I'll keep you ancestors name in mind as I scroll through microfilm later.

[fortdonelsonrelics]

Wish I had seen this thread prior to the Chicago Show. A couple walked in with an I'd 6th plate of two soldiers in the 20th TN and a Noble Bros. Pewter C.S.A, mint non-dug that belong to one of them.

The one was clearly wearing what appeared to be a regulation Columbus Depot Captains (frock) uniform with just the bars, the other was wearing a civilan style frock with First Sgt's stripes. Wished I'd snapped a shot.

John Walsh
Dover, Tn

[Daryl Black]

From, W. J. McMurray, "History of the Twentieth Tennessee Regiment Volunteer Infantry, C. S.A.", Nashville, 1904

p. 222-223 "On August 18 [1862], General Ruggles received orders from General Breckinridge to take command of all troops in this military district, except the troops from Kentucky and Tennessee, and they were to be sent by way of Clinton to Camp Moore, and from Camp Moore to Jackson, Mississippi, where we camped a while. The two Governments were at this time exchanging prisoners at Vicksburg, and several men of the Twentieth Regiment who had been captured on the different fields of battle were exchanged and rejoined us here. We then boarded the cars and went to Holly Springs in North Mississippi, and in a day or two we were ordered by way of Jackson, Mississippi, Mobile and Montgomery, Alabama, via Atlanta, Georgia, to Knoxville, Tennessee. We went by rail to Jackson, Mobile, Montgomery, Atlanta and on to Knoxville, with the expectation of following General Bragg into Kentucky, and while here learned of the great battle of Perryville, and how the Tennessee troops had distinguished themselves on this bloody field, winning fresh laurels for the Volunteer State. We also learned that Bragg was coming out of Kentucky, and Breckinridge's command was ordered to meet Bragg's forces at Murfreesboro. We arrived there by rail about the middle of October, and went into camp out on the Woodbury Road about one mile from town. In about two weeks the Twentieith and Forty-fifth Tennessee Regiments were ordered ten miles north of Murfreesboro on the Nashville pike to Stewart's Creek, to support a lot of our cavalry at Lavergne, still five miles further north toward Nashville. While here and at Murfreesboro a great many of the Twentieth and Forty-fifth Regiments got permission to go home to see their families, as many lived in the surrounding country near here.

p. 223 "Also while here at Stewart's Creek, the weather had begun to get quite cool and a snow of about two inches fell and we had a rousing rabbit hunt. The entire regiement formed in line of battle and swept through the woods with great success. A portion of the Forty-fifth Tennessee and one Company of the Twentieth Tennessee were largely raised in this community. The boys of the Twentieth knew that the Forty-fifth had in their camp a great many good things just come from home, and now how to get them was the question. So the Twentieth Regiment got up a snowball fight with them and a charge was ordered, and the boys of the Twentieth mixed up with the Forty-fifth in their own camp and the battle waxed warm, and while about three-fourths of the Twentieth Regiment were waging war in the heart of the Forty-fifth's camp, the other one-fourth was packing off into our camp whatever they could get. When the fight was over the Forty-fifth did not have near as many good things as they did when it opened, they even lost a good per cent. of their cooking utensils, and the best of their arms."

[Daryl Black]

Update:

No Quartermaster records appear in the company officer CSRs that date before March 1863. Nothing in either Col. Shy's or T. B. Smith's record for the period either. Did find a few pay vouchers for the end of September 1862 -- looks like they got paid off for two months at that point.

Records get better for the March 1863 -- July 1864 period. Missonary Ridge period is especially well represented -- September 30 issues heavy on pants, shirts and hats -- small numbers of jackets being issued. December 1863 returns again show small numbers of jackets -- fewer than one would expect. Pants again being issued in larger numbers. Companies A, D, F were receiving hats throughout the Missionary Ridge period -- Company B got a few caps during the same time (no hats issued in either September or December).

Pre-Atlanta Campaign issues look standard. One thing that is interesting is a March 1864 Ordnance Return in Col. Shy's record that shows the receipt of 13 Austrian rifles and 1,500 rounds of .54 ammunition. At the same time he received some .577 ammunition. Looks like a mix of arms during the Atlanta Campaign. Interesting that worn out .577 guns were being replaced with Austrians.

[CYoungJSU]

It is very interesting that so few jackets were being issued to the companies while occupying portions of Tennessee. This spans the Tullahoma Campaign through the Chattanooga Campaign. I dare say; could it be that these men are receiving clothing from “home” (i.e. middle Tennessee)? On a more serious note, it is interesting that pants are being issued in fairly large numbers but without coats or jackets. It seems as though if the men were receiving clothing from home, they would be sent a suit of cloths. What are the postulations on this phenomenon? Perhaps the pants wear out faster? Could it have been more difficult to receive pants in September with middle Tennessee cut off, but the coats still remain intact?

CY

[Daryl Black]

My guess is that there was some kind of "extra" issue of clothing or at least of coats or jackets that doesn't appear in the QMD records. Pants do indeed wear faster -- isn't there a SC account of them rubbing out a pair in 1 month? Jackets about 3 months? I'm basing my calculation of an extra issue on this kind of pattern and photographic evidence of frock coats on 20th TN prisoners just after Missionary Ridge. My thinking is -- jackets issued in late September -- by the 3 month rule they should be worn out by mid to late December. One would expect to see a big issue of jackets in December. But there are VERY few jackets issued in late December according to the QMD records. November 26 or 27 picture shows a group in coats that don't look at all hard worn. Where they came from is hard to say.