A Most Excellent Image!!

[Iron Scout]

Folks,

Check www.oldsouthantiques.com/os1182p1.htm for an excellent SC image. While mid-later war CS images are extremely rare, I believe this to be one. Note the (possible) earlier Charleston Depot jacket (6 button) with what appears to be a belt loop peeking out.

Neill Rose
PLHA

[jacobite8749]

Neil, What are your thoughts on clothing type issues to Gist's Brigade prior to their deployment to Mississippi in May 63? I have often wondered what "type" both the Georgia units, and South Carolina units would have had considering their stay around Charleston. My interest is a relative in the 8th. Ga. Vol. Battalion.

[roundshot]

Excellent indeed! Check out the collar alignment as well for reaffirmation of your Charleston provenance (plus the large belt loop).

[Iron Scout]

John,

Great question! I'll keep it real simple based on original garments here in SC and photographic images. Basically, the State of SC began issuing frock coats aka "uniform coats" in 1861. These were made by a variety of concerns such as Carr, Carter, the Industrial Girls School, etc. Around late 1862, the Charleston Clothing Bureau began producing jackets with 6 button fronts, with a variey of materials I'm sure. Sometime toward the mid-1864, it appears the Depot switched to a five button front based on three original examples. Two were in Jensen's article and the third is at the UDC Museum in Charleston.

So, I would surmise a six button front jacket would have been issued. Lots of well educated conjecture here though! The one similarity between all these garments is the collar piecing is flush with the button panel. Hope this helps!

Neill Rose
PLHA

[Iron Scout]

Folks,

A picture is worth a thousand words...

Neill Rose
PLHA

[PalmettoGuard]

Hmmmm,

The sitting soldier appears to have trim on his collar and cuff. The standing one doesn't. Interesting if they are from the same unit.

[Johnny Lloyd]

Neill-

Is that an upside-down Federal eagle button in your picture? -Johnny

[Annette Bethke]

Not to steal the thread from the gentleman, but the lady has mitts!!! And the zouave jacket "not to be worn by older women." I love it. Thanks for posting.

[Iron Scout]

Johnny,

Don't read too much into that; it's just been turned some while buttoning.

Neill Rose
PLHA

[Stonewall_Greyfox]

Annette,

Yes, the lady has mits...but I'd be interested in what you define to be "older". I would venture to say that while this woman is definently not a teenager, she's probably not far into her twenties.

Awesome Jacket/Coat!!

Paul

[huntdaw]

I would venture to say that while this woman is definently not a teenager, she's probably not far into her twenties.

The narrative with the image says she is the 39 year old mother of the boys.

[Annette Bethke]

Annette,

Yes, the lady has mits...but I'd be interested in what you define to be "older".
Paul

Generally, the information out there states that the Zouave jacket style is worn by women no older than the mid-20s. This woman doesn't fit the "usual" for her outfit. I love it when evidence contradicting the usual is found. But then I also have to wonder if she is wearing that because it is her fashion or is it a hand-me-down or something she kept from her own earlier wardrobe she is wearing due to war shortages.

[Johnny Lloyd]

Neill-
Would the original jackets have had Federal buttons from Charleston? I would think militia buttons would be more of a fit in this case considering where it was made. Is this too much of a supposition? :rolleyes:
Anyway... great pics- Johnny

[Trish Hasenmueller]

Er...I beg to differ on the style of the mother's jacket. It comes down past her waist and appears to be a sack jacket to me, like the one on this page but dressier and without a belt:
http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/godey/images/glb10-57di.jpeg

It is refreshing to see the lace mitts.

Trish Hasenmueller

[Annette Bethke]

Er...I beg to differ on the style of the mother's jacket. It comes down past her waist and appears to be a sack jacket to me,
Trish Hasenmueller

You know, I think you may be right. My mistake. Especially now that I look at it and notice the buttons all the way down.

[Trish Hasenmueller]

Thanks, Annette. I have a sort of preoccupation with this type jacket. hehehe

Do you think the buttons are decorative and the jacket actually fastens with hooks? I ask because of the way it overlaps at the top and then the buttons are on the outside layer.

Trish Hasenmueller

[Iron Scout]

Johnny,

Federal eagle buttons are found on numerous CS garments even to latter issues ie. 64-65. Just FYI. Do a search as there's been numerous great discussions on this topic.

Cheers,

Neill Rose
PLHA

[Johnny Lloyd]

Hello-

Understood. But Federal eagle buttons on -specifically- Charleston, SC produced jackets was the question I was thinking of. I've heard plenty elsewhere of them being used-especially near Federal installations of the period. Being so specific, does anyone know or can determine this anyway? Looks like a RD Type I if it has belt loops... Thanks so much- Johnny

[sgt sidd]

Hello It does not look that she is their mother, if she was 39 and one son was 20 and the other 15 at that time she would have been 9 years old when she had the first. She could be a sister or she married the boys father around that age, which means she could be the step mother of them or maybe there is another thought. Two of them look like twins, maybe she may be the older sister and she could have taken the role of the mother when their mother past away. Question are opened or the photo might be missed marked of who they are. Thank you Robert S Lanier

[Annette Bethke]

Hello It does not look that she is their mother, if she was 39 and one son was 20 and the other 15 at that time she would have been 9 years old when she had the first.

Oops, check your math :). 39-20=19, which is plausible.

[sgt sidd]

Hello It looks like the photo of the 2 men and one Lady is neat, have a question for you fellows and Ladies. If She is the mother and 39 and one son is 20 the other is 15 or there about she would had to been 9 years old is that right, she could be there step mother maybe there sister who took the roll of mother when their mother died , she looks the older of all three could be there older sister. Or she could be married to one of them , the photo could maybe miss marked . Opens up question . Neat. Robert S Lanier

[elcid01]

Neill and Johnny,
having seen all the original Chas Depot jackets at the Daughters of the Confederacy in Charleston I will agree with Neill on the "federal Eagle button" issue. Don't get caught up in over thinking this. Yes there were federal eagle buttons on just about every Confederate jacket. More Commmon on the Chas jackets would have been inported script buttons due to them all being made out of imported english kersey. Federal buttons were actually still cast by the southern QM depts because of the Avialibility of the old cast. Bottom line in relation to our interests, you would not go wrong by putting (good) federal issue buttons on any confederate jacket.

On the Militia button issue: I would tell you that the Charleston Depot produced jackets in the same manner as the Richmond depot, Columbus depot, and other "confederate" QM depts. Unlike the NC depot that was documented as primarialy for NC troops, on which you were more likely to have the NC sunburst buttons. Just like you wouldn't see mass amounts of richmond depots standard issue jacket with VA buttons, you wouldn't see mass amounts of Chas depot jackets with SC or militia buttons. the Chas depot was providing clothing to the dept of SC, GA, and FL with consisted of numerous units from numerous states. Granted I would be courous to see if Hagood BDE did leave the Charleston Defences for petersburg in 64 with Chas depot jackets...

my comments on this thread...

skip owens...

Just my comments on this.

[Moose]

Sir -
No. 39 - 20 = 19. Now if the photo said she was 29 years old and her son was 20, then yes you would be correct, 29 - 20 = 9.
I beleive that it is totally plausable for her to be his mother.

Cheers,
Joseph Caridi

[elcid01]

neill I had posted a long caveat to this photo.

to reiterate what neill said I wouln't get wrapped around the axle about the federal buttons.

great photo neill, we can discuss this more off line

cheers,
skip owens

[elcid01]

neill,
I had posted a long caveat to this photo. but bottom line: to reiterate what neill said I wouln't get wrapped around the axle about the federal buttons.

great photo neill, we can discuss this more off line

cheers,
skip owens

[Johnny Lloyd]

Skip-

Good stuff from Cid '01... I'd think Charleston jackets would have plenty of import buttons due to proximity to the wharf/harbor. I'd also think that civilian buttons would be used as well of all sorts. Imported items probably would be easy to come by in Charleston- relatively.

Good website on the "Charleston Depot" design jackets with a drawing:
http://www.emmitsburg.net/15scv/contents/charleston_depot.htm

Like Neill said the button flap is flush with the stand-up collar. The article confirms what you said about import buttons in use on the two surviving examples. The cloth/lining of the mentioned examples is osnaburg inside and English wool kersey outside- yet confirming the McRae papers assertions that English import wool was yet again found in the making of another Confederate jacket.
Thus proved the McRae Papers accuracy and extreme value again- did we even need to??? ;)

Handsome jacket, isn't it? Might get one made for myself eventually.

Yes, agreed, enough already of the jacket... keep it to the photo. But a good comment nonetheless, sir... :)

Cheers- Johnny