Rations

[pvt. tommy]

Gentlemen,
I have acquired the recipe for the dreaded "axle grease' and am attempting to make some for a l/h in Florence, SC this weekend. I am wondering what to put it in before putting in the haversack. I considered doing a thorough wash job on a cap tin and using it. Anything I can put my hands on that is period correct would probably have a cork in it and way too small of an opening.
Your suggestions are most appreciated!
I am,
Tommy Rollings
8th. SCVI
Palmetto Battalion

[Spinster]

Both Village Tinsmith and Jarnigan have carried a correct container at various times---you need the item this weekend though, so your best bet really is a well washed cap tin, then acquire something more appropriate at a later date.

On one occassion, I managed to make it solid enough to risk rolling it up in balls and using a twist of brown paper to contain it. Nothing like coffee all over everything in your haversack to keep you alert though.

[Bent Rabbit]

Depending on the consistency of the goo when you're finished, I found that using a tin inserted in a poke sack, and then bundle up the sack nice and tight before going into the haversack will save you from having sticky knuckles later... :D

Dave Gager
www.cwchaps.com


Mr. Gager: AC FORUM rules prohibit the use of cartoons, etc. for avatars. Please change yours to a period style image of yourself, or a modern image of yourself. Consider this your 1st Warning. Curt-Heinrich Schmidt, Moderator

[tarwater_mess]

I do not have facts on hand hoping others may. However, I have read references to this before. This dreaded "Axle Grease" was packed in quantities far greater than a personal tin. The Essence of Coffee was usually packed in 5# cans, sometimes as large as 25# cans. This was usually prepared at company level quantities usuing 5#'s at a time.

I guess it could have been possible for you to get a small can, for personal consumption, from your local regimental sutler.

Personally, I would grab some green coffee beans and roast'em up in a mess kettle or pan.


Anyone with good concrete research on this?

[markj]

Greetings,

Another possibility might be John Peterson at Otter Creek Tinware:

http://www.sover.net/~ottertin/ottertin/octinw1.html

I know "Victor Trading Company" also sells 19th century-style cans but, to my knowledge, these are "decorative only":

http://www.victortradingco.com/

John Peterson and I have discussed reproducing "Arthur's Patent Self-Sealing Can," which was definitely available (at least in the Philadelphia area) from circa 1853 onward. I not only found patent information for this item but also a number of interesting articles and illustrations dealing with it in 1850's numbers of "Arthur's Home Magazine." John is apparently working on a prototype right now so we'll see what happens. This would be just the ticket for you--a resealable, as well as reusable, can.

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[Jack Booda]

Quote from a very good article by Art Ayotte; link shown below.

"Extract of Coffee was a combination of concentrated coffee; milk and sugar, all vacuum distilled down to a thick paste. It came packed in several size containers from five gallon tins down to one quart cans. One gallon was supposed to make one day's ration of coffee for one hundred men."

http://fugawee.com/coffee.htm

I don't know how much a quart of essence weighs (5 lbs.?), but it looks like Mark Mason has a good point. Individuals may not have been issued small containers of essence for personal use.

[markj]

Hi,

Another perfectly plausible scenario is that essence of coffee was, at times, available through friendly neighborhood sutlers or could be acquired if one was passing through reasonably well-stocked towns. If so, then, depending on one's situation, having a small can in their possession would be perfectly okay.

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[bluebellybugleboy]

pards:
well me and a pard of mine have been wondering where exactly can me and him buy a period frying pan , we are going to campaign next year and have been wondering , thanks.

[LibertyHallVols]

Oh, if the data from the old forums was back!! There was an informative thread on this very subject.

In a nut: Frank Ellis does a very fine job. Otherwise, you'll have to buy a stamped frying pan from Sutlerz Row vendor of your choice and find a blacksmith to snip off the handle and add a correct one on for you.

Anyone have Mr. Ellis' contact info handy?

[dusty27]

Frank Ellis<?XML:NAMESPACE PREFIX = O /><O:P style="MARGIN: 0px"> </O:P>

<O:P style="MARGIN: 0px"></O:P>Rt. 1, Box 341

Greenbriar, TN 37073

615-643-4842

Great pans, great service, good turn around time.

[Huck]

Frank is the only way to go. His work is top notch. :D

[bluebellybugleboy]

Pards:
what exactly do the period handles look like , is there a web site that shows a period correct handle? thanks .

I also heard some where that canteen halves can be used and where common but I think that might be more of a confederate thing, and not a union.


Rob

[dusty27]

Rob,

Frank doesn't have a website, but I own two of his pans and they are great. I don't know of anyone who doesn't think so.

You can use a canteen half. I don't think it is a Confederate/Union issue.....

[JimKindred]

Rob,

Look for websites dealing in antiques, don't search for Civil War but for the time period of 1840-1860 when looking for information. You can also look in your local library for books dealing with antique identification. While the internet is a great tool, printed material is not dead.

[straggler]

If it is of any assistance, I can attempt to post a picture of Mr. Ellis' work
later today.

[DougCooper]

anybody who lives on Possum Trot Lane has got to be authentic :D Seriously, Frank is the man on fry pans. One of the those "pry it out of my cold dead hands" pieces of kit. I carry his 11" version everywhere and have been offerred cash for the "antique" several times. Original pans (and Frank's)are much lighter than most repro's. Frank's prices are excellent as well (don't tell him).

[Jimmayo]

Pards:
what exactly do the period handles look like , is there a web site that shows a period correct handle? thanks .

I also heard some where that canteen halves can be used and where common but I think that might be more of a confederate thing, and not a union.


Rob
Got a pic of a frying pan handle on this page http://www.angelfire.com/ma4/j_mayo/tools/tools.html

IMO Canteen halves are more of a unionism than a confederate. At least I have found more halves in union camps (6) than in confederate camps (0).

[straggler]

Using the 'manage attachment' feature to attempt adding a photo of
Frank's fry pans.

[bluebellybugleboy]

Pards;
thanks I wasn't sure quite what the whole thing looked like. but now I have a picture and remembered. i will see about getting one . thanks to you all , and let santa claus bring you something other than hardtack this christmas ...... hmm, maybe coal will be good ..... or maybe a toothbrush.



Rob

[John Peterson]

This is from the Dover Stamping Company catalog of 1869. It was a Boston based company that wholesaled various sheetmetal wares and tinners tools, etc.
http://www.sover.net/~ottertin/ottertin/frypans.jpg
In addition to "plain", they were also available "tinned" and "polished." The handle pictured here was mass produced and very common from the 1840s into the 20th century. By the 1860s they were replacing the hand-made style handle that Mr. Ellis produces. More recently made pans can be easily "retro-fitted" by drilling out the 3 spot welds and putting in rivets. They are not difficult to find at barn sales, junk shops, etc. and only need the rivets to make them period appropriate.

[64OVI]

Speaking of cooking equipage..is there a source for spiders?

Kent Dorr
"Kick It up a Notch" Mess

[Clark Badgett]

I have to agree with Jim here. The only place I've ever seen canteen halves mentioned as fry pans was in Union soldier recollections. Anybody have and Cornfed references?

[John Peterson]

Speaking of cooking equipage..is there a source for spiders?

You'd have better luck finding spiders with 18th century period sutlers. (for example, here's a sheet iron one:
http://www.gggodwin.com/308.htm) and there is a reason for that.

In some cases "spider" has been used interchangeably with "frying pan" but, as many probably realize, it typically was a legged pan, meant to be used for hearth cooking or sometimes a trivet put over coals and upon which a pan might be set. They survived past the 1860s but their usage was already tapering off by that time as more and more households began to use cook stoves. till, the practice of hearth cooking persisted, primarily in poor rural homes.

Spiders are neat and I would be the first to admit that I have a thing for period cooking wares ... but many of us have seen campfires at events with an abundance of heavy iron cooking accessories. Some of those ironwares might even be authentic to the period, however, they are out-of-place in that setting. If you must use a fry pan, a plain old sheet iron (as opposed to cast iron) frying pan would make a lot more sense. From a practical point of view it's lighter and you don't have to worry about getting poked with those legs; and for another thing, it would be more commonly available during the 1860s than a spider.

On the other hand, some of us just can't resist cool toys ... I've got lots of period cooking utensils that will never make it to an event. I recommend thinking the scenario through before bringing a spider to an authentic event. (For example - it might work as a pilfered item in a winter-quarters setting.)


My 2 cents

[bluebellybugleboy]

pards:
how authentic is cooking food in your tin cup? I've done it before in boy scouts , ands made many a cup of coffee in my old cup, but how period is it ?

[John E. Tobey]

FWIW, here's a photo of a frying pan that was carried by a Federal soldier. Once part of a GAR exhibit in Trumansburg, NY, the tag says: "Frying Pan Knife Fork & Spoon that went from Atlanta to the Sea." It was the property of Henry Rudie of the 137th NY. It is 7-1/2 inches in diameter, and weighs only 13 ounces.



John Tobey

[markj]

Greetings,

As always, you be the judge:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2215641061&category=13960

Regards,

Mark D. Jaeger

[ScottCross]

While working at the Wisconsin Veteran's Museum, I worked on the Civil War items transferred there from the State Historical Society of Wisconsin. Included in the transfer were dozens of original Civil War hardcrackers. This one on ebay is very similar if not identical to those I cataloged: shape; size; condition; etc. Even the old ink identification on it is similar to identifications I have seen on some. More than likely, it is a Federal piece of hardtack and not Confederate.

[Johan Steele]

I am trying to find the correct dimensions for a hard tack box as would have been used to issue 50 lbs of hard tack. I have checked numerous references and have had no luck. I am rather certain their was a thread on it on the old forum but again have had no luck in my search.

Can anyone point me in the correct direction? I'm planning to build three or four for my wifes cook impression to store kitchen items and I would also like to make a pair to have laying about camp as a convenient camp stools for my Company.

THank in advance for any assistance.

[hardtack1864]

Go to dixie leather works. They have what you need, but don't put the rope on the box and the higes either.

[Clark Badgett]

From Kautz's Custom's of Service
Length- 26", height (ends)- 11" width- 18"

Also from an article James R. Loba & Leslie D. Jenson in the Journal of The Company Of Military Historians Vol. XLVIII No. 3, fall 1996 contains diminsions of 3 original boxes: all measurements are length, height(ends), width and in inches.

Robert Sterns, Brooklyn NY, Sept/62- 25 3/4, 10 3/4, 18.
Kendall Bros & Co. June/63- 25 3/4, 10 3/4, 18 1/4.
A.T. Hanks, Brroklyn NY, May/64- 25, 11 3/8, 17 7/8.

Ends seemed to be of thicker wood that the sides and tops/bottoms. Also the originals examined for this article had the top/bottom pieces tounge and grooved from 2 similarily sized pieces. Two of the boxes retained vestiges of their sapling banding. I would suggest you obtain this issue for your files, as it is very informative. Lots of nice pictures too.
http://company.military-historians.org/journal/journal.htm

[markj]

Hi,

I don't have the U.S. Army Regulations of 1861 (rev. 1863) in front of me but I do believe hardtack box dimensions are also listed therein. I have also found dimensions for boxes listed in published contractor bid solicitations issued by the Cincinnati QM Depot in 1862. These vary somewhat from the "official specs." If you want these, let me know and I'll dig them out of my vast pile of clippings.

Of course, if you have the greenbacks, you can save yourself the trouble and simply buy the boxes direct from the G. H. Bent Company or Greenewood Boxes:

https://www.bentscookiefactory.com/Gifts.htm#crate

http://greenewood.freeyellow.com/Hardtack.html

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[Robert Braun]

While working at the Wisconsin Veteran's Museum, I worked on the Civil War items transferred there from the State Historical Society of Wisconsin. Included in the transfer were dozens of original Civil War hardcrackers. This one on ebay is very similar if not identical to those I cataloged: shape; size; condition; etc. Even the old ink identification on it is similar to identifications I have seen on some. More than likely, it is a Federal piece of hardtack and not Confederate.

I have been fortunate to personally examine several of the artifacts mentioned by Mr. Cross, and concur with his statements.

Bob.

[sivart]

I can understand why you would want them for your wife’s cooking impression, but I cannot understand why you would want them for your camp?
A wooden box in the 1860’s was to them what cardboard boxes are to us. They wouldn’t last long, especially in a stationary camp. Wooden boxes broken up make great firewood.
If your men need something to sit on, the ground always works best. :D
I do not mean to be mean with this post in any way, just something to ponder.

[Johan Steele]

Actually, it's exactly because they were like cardboard that I want to make a couple to put in the camp for use as... whatever. Whether as a temprorary table or seat it doesn't matter. I essentially got to thinking the other day when I had last seen a hardtack box in a re-enactment. I could only recall one among some boys of the 2nd Wisconsin at one of my first events. As my unit primarily does Living History & we shi away from the powder burning battles I thought a couple of hardtack box laying about camp would be a good idea.

I actually ran across an original a couple monthes ago that had been hinged and at some point had been used as a tool box. I was suprised at how well built it was and how well it had held up across a century and a half. If I had been thinking I would have taken the dimensions of the thing so I could properly replicate it. They wanted $250 for it... I almost choked when I realized what it was. Some enteprising Cav smithy had taken the time to line it w/ cedar shingles and made compartments for some of his tools. He had tacked leather hinges onto the thing and tacked a pair of horse shoes onto it as handles. It was a pretty impressive tool box, if I had the ready money to grab it up I would have. In the same collection there was an original Sharp's carbine ammo box worked in a similar way... that went for $400.

[BorderReb]

Here is contact information for Dixie Leather Works.

Dixie Leather Works
PO Box 8221
Paducah, KY 42002-8221
orders 1-800-888-5183
fax 1-270-442-1049
phone 1-270-442-1058
dlw@apex.net

[ohio volunteer]

Mark,

Can you send me the specs by the Cincinnati QM Depot?

My email is general1862@aol.com

thanks,

[markj]

Hi,

The dimensions for hardtack boxes, bacon boxes, salt meat barrels, etc. are stated in U.S. Army Regulations of 1861 (rev. 1863) on pages 301-302 in the subsistence section under the heading "MISCELLANEOUS ITEMS." An "average box" for hard bread was to be 26 x 17 x 11 inches, exterior in measure. "The ends of a box of this size should be of inch, and the remainder of five-eighths, stuff, the package well strapped with green hickory or other suitable wood." The Cincinnati specs vary somewhat from those stated above. Also note the Regulation dimensions vary a little from what is stated in Kautz.

In the 1863 CS Regulations (NHS reprint), sample box dimensions are listed on page 196, again in the subsistence section. However, no specific information is provided for hard bread boxes. I'm not sure why this isn't stated but it may reflect logistical realities--hard tack was likely less common in the C.S. Army as the war progressed due to wheat flour shortages. Also, on page 132, there is a table showing weight and bulk of rations so, I suppose, one could potentially extrapolate the necessary dimensions and weights of boxes using it as well as information provided elsewhere (I suspect they're identical to those in U.S. Regulations).

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[Moonshine]

I'm tired of burning beeswax candles! Anyone have a source for tallow ones...?

Much appreciated in advance for any help!

Jim Ross

[va-yank]

Hmmm, will watch this with interest. No, I do not know where to get tallow candles, and might also be interested.

The item I settled on some time ago is apparently made of beeswax and parrafin, and of a sort of yellow-brown tint. They are slightly greasy and fairly long burning. They are dipped, and come two to a string. Regimental QM (shudder) sells them in Gettysburg.

Parafin is a by-product of petroleum refining, which was in its infancy during the CW. Which raises the questions, were they still using pure tallow or some hybrid by the time of the CW? This question pertains to what type of candles were being issued by the U.S. per my impression.

Have you used tallow candles before? Sure you want to?

Good luck!

[Hank Trent]

Star candles (adamantine candles) were one popular period choice, and an improvement on tallow. They're available at church supply houses among other places, including some online ones. They look and burn a lot like paraffin.

Star candles were included among the options in ration issues, though it would depend on the time and place as to what actually got issued. For example, from the ORs: "sperm candles to 100 rations, 1 pound, or star candles to 100 rations, 1 1/4 pounds; or tallow candles, to 100 rations 1 1/2 pounds."

Paraffin candles were advertised for sale in the Gallipolis, Ohio newspaper here, so they were around for civilian use, but don't know if they were ever issued to the army.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[markj]

Hi,

"Stearin" was reportedly first isolated from tallow in 1823 and was subsequently used in candles to make them smoke less and give off more light.

stearin

SYLLABICATION: ste·a·rin
PRONUNCIATION: str-n, stîrn
VARIANT FORMS: also ste·a·rine ( str-n, --rn, stîrn)
NOUN: 1. A colorless, odorless, tasteless ester of glycerol and stearic acid, C3H5(C18H35O2)3, found in most animal and vegetable fats and used in the manufacture of soaps, candles, and adhesives and for textile sizing. Also called tristearin. 2. The solid form of fat.
ETYMOLOGY: French stéarine : Greek stear, tallow; see sti- in Appendix I + French -ine

I would suppose that "star candles" are a corruption of "STEARINE candles."

This might be of interest to you:

http://carlisle-www.army.mil/usamhi/Bibliographies/ReferenceBibliographies/equipment/genmisc.doc

This addresses the subject from a Confederate perspective:

http://www.uttyl.edu/vbetts/lighting.htm

Some possible places to find tallow candles are:

Coyote Found Candles and the Moravian Book Shop (both have websites). If they don't have them, maybe they know somebody who does.

Also, here is a website describing how to make tallow candles:

http://www.smith.edu/hsc/museum/ancient_inventions/candles3.html

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[Vuhginyuh]

Mark Jeager's reference is spot on.

''NATCHEZ DAILY COURIER, March 19, 1861, p. 3, c. 4
Star candles--100 boxes Proctor & Gamble's full weight Star Candles, received and for sale by Ray & Grant, Natchez Landing.
Soap--200 boxes Procter & Gamble's Soap, received and for sale by Ray & Grant, Natchez Landing.''

BEAUTIFUL PRIMARY SOURCE!

Hard beef or ''yellow fat''* when rendered is tallow, soft fat is grease. Tallow was used in candles and grease was used for soap.

Procter & Gamble started life as chandlers and it was common practice for them to collect fat from tanners and hide companies and buy un-needed fat from households.

Horse fat could be rendered as well.

Pork fat was saved for the kitchen and the table.

Make your own soap and candles it is very easy...


* My great-grandmother, Julia Branch Parker, a war baby.

[GWilson]

How often were whiskey rations issued? How much would an individual recieve and how strong would it be? Also, where flasks commonly used or are they are modern type item. Thanks

[1stMaine]

Comrade,
The one episode that I know of was to Hood's Texas brigade after crossing the Potomac on the way to gettysburg. J.B.Polley, who was a member of the 4th Texas, recounted in his history of the Brigade that some officers had located a barrel of Whiskey, and set it by the road, and knocked the top off. As the brigade filed by, each man was allowed to dip his cup into it and draw some out. those who didn't drink were encouraged to draw some for those who did. Being that it had been some time since the last occasion they had access to strong spirits, and because of the warmth of the day, the alcohol seemed to have a rather quick effect upon the men. Those who were too enebriated to continue were taken to the nearest source of water and had their heads soaked until they were "right". The officers apparently had more than a little difficulty in keeping the column closed up. According to Polley, it was one of their longest marches...not so much on account of the LENGTH of the road, but because of it's WIDTH:)
respects,

[Johan Steele]

The man I portray lost his stripes because he stole a "...hogshead of good Whiskey from the Colonels tent and distributed it to the enlisted men of the Regiment." Apparently he felt it an injustice that the officers had as much spirits as they could desire while enlisted men had none. I think the whiskey ration depended from unit to unit as I've read of Regiments never receiving a ration and others receiving a ration on a regular occasion.

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Well not exactly a wiskey ration, but it is booze related.

On Christmas Eve 1861 a large group of Norwegens and Swedes from the 15th Wisconsin, stole a keg of beer from, and proceded to brawl with members of the Irish 17th Wisconsin. Acording to several period acounts the Scandinavians out drank and out fought the Irishmen.

[MuddyTrowsers]

This also is not whisky, but it involves alchohol nonetheless.

From the Civil War Diary of Arthur C. Mellette (Co. H, 9th Indian Infantry) Mellette was rather meticulous and often recorded exactly what he ate and drank most days:

Frid. Apr'l 21st 1865
"...Bought some cheese & beer..."

Thurs. June 1st 1865
"Weaker & worse––got money & drank some beer. Seems to do me the most good of anything."

Source:
Arthur Calvin Mellette, The Civil War Diary of Arthur Calvin Mellette, ed. Gerald W. Wolff and Joanita Kant (Watertown, SD: Interstate Publishing Co., 1983), 63,69.

[KentuckyReb]

You're wanting to portray accurate whiskey consumption, most likely in a cup. Maybe a canteen, if it was 'liberated' from somewhere. Most likely out of camp, or if it's in camp then away from the NCOs or officers. Not so much out of respect for regulation as for the risk of having it 'RE-liberated'. Flasks were probably generally the province of officers, and walkin' around camp with a bottle in one's face was a real good way to lose said bottle, as well as one's liberty. So probably no flask except for an officer or an early-war rank/file.

[C.Osgood]

How often were whiskey rations issued? How much would an individual recieve and how strong would it be? Also, where flasks commonly used or are they are modern type item. Thanks


Captain. Wesley Brainard Co.C 50th NY Engineers, carried a barrel of whiskey in his personal bagage wagon, to issue out to the members of his company. I dont have the book in front of me, but I believe he said that anytime they had to build a bridge or do any other hard physical work he issued them some whiskey. However, it makes no mention of how much was issued.

On a side note, every company in the regiment had a nickname. Co.C was known as Theiving C and Co.D as Whiskey D, must be they had a fine taste for whiskey.

While Serving as OOD (officer of the day) Capt. Brainard noticed some members of the regiment, while stationed in washington carrying their weapons very carefully at support arms. When stoped by the Sgt. of the guard, they noticed the barrels and nipples on the muskets were pluged very carefully and were full of whiskey. That explained the mass amount of camp drunkedness that had been going on.

Anyhow I hope this info is of some use,

[markj]

Hi,

Depending on time, place, and availability troops did receive whiskey rations. One gill--about 4 oz. (1/4 pint) was the usual amount "issued" to fatigue parties (ostensibly for "morale" and "medicinal" purposes). Even this seemingly small amount, according to a number of diary entries I've seen, was enough to put some men "three sheets to the wind."

Ethnic German units, such as the 32nd Indiana, were known to receive beer rations whenever possible. Such "rations" usually consisted of three glasses (or their tin cup equivalent) per day and were considered to be part of the "bread ration." Needless to say, the 32nd IVI was pretty healthy: of the 268 deaths in its ranks, only 97 were from disease--a roughly 3-1 ratio and the almost exact opposite of its "American" counterparts.

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[10TnVI]

Since the book I'm currently reading mentions the subject- "Soldiering With Sherman" THe C.W. Letters of George F. Cram (105th Illinois)

lpart of a letter written from June16-June 19, 1864 from near Marrietta

"Sunday, June 19 The rain.....In the afternoon we drew two days more rations and rations of whiskey were issued to the men, singular enough, that when the troops are living on reduced rations, transportation should be used to draw the meanest of whiskey to steal away their brains aand injure their systems, but I am happy to add that a large number of Company F refused theirs."

Ina letter dated August 4, 1864 written "in the field 2 miles north of Atlanta

..."You wish to know about the Sanitary and Christian Commissions. When I was at Resasc with Tirtlot I had charge of all sanitary and commissary stores there and we constantly had for the wounded soda crackers, condensed milk, pickled potatoes & cabbage, extract of beef, dried fruit and some other little things furnished by the S.C. while govt. commissary could furnish them nothing but hard crackers, pork, beef(bad) coffee, sugar and beans. Also each badly wounded man was furnished with a clean white shirt. Drawers and socks by the S.C. Also all the lint and bandages and much of the chloroform were furnished by the S.C. Besides these we recieved many dozen bottles of whiskey, brandy and different cordials, from the S.C."

And just for counterpoint-

" The Christian Commision is also a good thing and we frequently get religious papers through them. They do much good in different ways."

[Jim of The SRR]

From "Eye of the Storm" by Pvt Robert Knox Sneden of the 49th NY:

"Nov 16, 1861 at Leesburg Turnpike, VA
The Whiskey ration was the great desiration. Three gallons of whiskey was drawn from the brigade commissary for 100 men. One gallon of this was mized with three buckets of water and a gill given to each hard working soldier morning and evening. The remaining two gallons was kept in the officers; tents for their own use and card playing and drinking went on until midnight sometimes. The officers did not work at all, as they knew little of nothing of how it should be done. They looked on and gave a few directions. Still being an officer settled their right to the lion's share of the whiskey, or 'commissary' as it was called so they thought. Many of them had swelled heads in the morning and probably had to go out on picket duty at that."

Regards,
Jim Butler
The SRR

[DougCooper]

Been a long time since I shopped for a bread box - I do remember Rocky of the Southern Guard made them extremely well in the 90's. Is he still making them? Anybody else?

How about Bent vs Mechanical - best biscuits?

thanks

[markmason]

whiskey??? when...where! :p

[MarkTK36thIL]

I think this was the general concensus last time the biscuit talk came up.

Bent's (makers during the war) looks more like the originals but they are easy to eat- obviously not what the soldiers experienced.
http://www.bentscookiefactory.com/hardtack.htm

Mechanical makes theirs to be hard as the original and I believe on period equipment(don't quote me on that), but they don't look as original as Bent's. http://216.239.39.104/search?q=cache:LIS6EFUu3SwJ:www.mechanical-bakery.com/+mechanical+baking+company&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

My unit ordered 200 pieces from MBC, and were very satisfied. If nothing else, my dog enjoys the hardtack very much and is always ready for a piece.

[flattop32355]

Anyone out there have the ability to set a piece of each company's product side by side and take a picture or two for the rest of us poor souls?

[delawaric]

Anyone out there have the ability to set a piece of each company's product side by side and take a picture or two for the rest of us poor souls?

Just go to the websites posted above. They both have pictures of their product.



Eric "Woody" Woodward

[ThehosGendar]

Here's an original for you:

http://www.3nj.org/htbox.jpg

Aquia Creek, Februaru 1863. Captain J.W. Forsyth, the Provost Marshall is seated atop it.

[MarkTK36thIL]

Here's an original for you
Aquia Creek, Februaru 1863. Captain J.W. Forsyth, the Provost Marshall is seated atop it.
TheHos Gendar,
You amaze us all as you find everything playing around the NA site. My vote goes to you for the poster of the month if we have one.

[DougCooper]

notice the pinky ring (wedding ring?) on the crate sitter.

Consensus is Mechanical crackers are good enough to use as building material while Bent's are edible but can turn to crumbs under 24 hr stress in a haversack. Mark Hoffman has a great solution - he mixes them up and eats the Bents early. I checked the Oracle (Hardtack and Coffee by Billings) on Mark's advice, and Billings describes both types.

Can anyone comment on the crates that Bent makes?

[SCSecesh]

Doug,
I've bought quite a number of Bent Cracker's and while they never get as hard as MBC's, I've left the Bent Crackers out of their packaging and they became a bit less fragile than when fresh. The last set was dumped into a croaker sack and issued to 80 or men, midway on a march from Harper's Ferry to Sharpsburg in '02 - most survived in "decent" shape.

[DougCooper]

Works for me Dave!! I still have some MBC's from about 4 years ago...when banged together they sound just like two pieces of masonry. School kids get a kick out of that :D

Bent it is!

[pvt. tommy]

All,
I'm sure this topic was covered on the old site, but since those threads are all gone now, I'm asking again.
I'm attending an event next weekend that will have a ration issue. My question is what's the best way to prepare fresh (uncured) pork for the weekend. As I understand it, the pork will be issued in a "big hunk" to a four man mess.
I can cook it with no problem, but I've never prepared anything that I know will have to keep safely for a couple days with no refigeration. The temps here range from a low in the mid 20's to up around the mid 50's for a high.
Thanks everyone!
Tommy Rollings
8th SCVI
Palmetto Battalion

[SCSecesh]

Since I believe I'm still supposed to help with the issue of said rations, I'll help you out but not dropping any of said hog on your plate!! :D Seriously, you can boil it with some of the forage that will be available and you should be fine - evil laugh!! :D

[Tom Ezell]

How often were whiskey rations issued? How much would an individual recieve and how strong would it be? Also, where flasks commonly used or are they are modern type item. Thanks

Here's what the Confederate reagulations say, at least:

"1149. The following issues and substitutions may be made: When, from excessive fatigue or exposure, the commanding officer may deem it necessary, he may direct the issue of whiskey to the enlisted men of his command, not to exceed a gill per man for each day. Tea may be issued in lieu of coffee, at the rate of one and a half pounds per one hundred rations. Two "issues" per week of "desiccated vegetables," may be made in lieu of "beans" or "rice." Potatoes and onions, when issued, will always be in lieu of rice or beans. Potatoes at the rate of a pound per ration; onions at the rate of three pecks per hundred rations. A daily ration of fresh vegetables will be furnished to all the troops whenever the same can be provided at reasonable cost and charges to the government. Chaplains in the army are allowed the same rations as privates, to be issued or commuted to them as they may desire. If commuted, twenty-five cents per ration while in the field, and sixty cents per ration while stationed in a city may be allowed them. Four women will be allowed to each company as washer-women, also four cooks, and will receive one ration per day each."

[ephraim_zook]

From the Federal Subsitance regulations:

"1205. Extra issues will be allowed as follows, viz.:
ADAMANTINE CANDLES. etc
SALT. etc.
WHISKY. One gill per man per dialy, in cases of excessive fatigue or severe exposure. The number of men issued to will be stated on each return for extra issues, and so entered on the Abstract. (Form 4.)..."

How often did this happen? I haven't seen many accounts or diary entries suggesting that this was a regular occurance.

Ron Myzie

[107thman]

I've considered suplimenting my rations with either sausage or bacon. Does anyone have any comment or suggestions on these subjects? What about a personal sized frying pan or skillet? Other than just sticking a stick through a sausage would a frying pan be a correct way of soldierly cooking? Does anyone have a bacon and sausage supplier? :confused:


Mike, this is your second warning that you must sign all of your posts with your FULL NAME. Please comply or run the risk of loosing your priviledges here - Mike Chapman

[ewtaylor]

You might want to check on a frying pan sold by the jerseyskilletlicker. Since most people on this forum usually reenact campaign style, a canteen half is a very popular item. It is virtually weightless and can be carried in your haversack with your food. I have used the same one for 2 years and it works great. They usually cost less than $10 and is a very good and historically correct item for both sides.
The Bacon and sausage question I'll leave to someone else as I usually get my meat rations from the QM at the event I'm attending.
hope this helps,
ewtaylor
bluegrass rifles

[dusty27]

Frank Ellis
Rt. 1, Box 341
Greenbriar, TN 37073
615-643-4842

Frank's skillets are very good and period accurate. He has a personal size available.

As to bacon vs. sausage, I recommend slab bacon from Scotts Hams www.scotthams.com (http://www.scotthams.com) (#55) This meat needs no refrigeration and comes close to the meat the soldiers would have received on occasion.

Hope this helps

[JCbluegrassrifles]

My pard Wayne makes a good point. Canteen halves are great for campaigners. They are cheap and 100% correct. If you are looking for frying pans, www.skilletlicker.com is a good place. Also, I'm told that Frank Ellis makes great ones.

Frank Ellis
Rt. 1, Box 341Greenbriar, TN 37073
615-643-4842

The disadvnatage of the frying pan being you would have to carry it in a knapsack and I know some don't like the discomfort. But, if you or a pard carry a pack, that works out.

As far as bacon and sausage, to me it would seem that those were foraged items or items gathered for a long encampment, much like the feds at Pittsburg Landing. Your best bet is to go with salt pork as that is what was issued. There are times when foraged items are proper, but that depends on the scenario. If you are attending an event where rations are not issued, then it saves time and effort to prepare meats prior to leaving for the event. We all know grunts carried their 3-5 days rations with them, so preapring them when issued would help prevent spoil, and for you, you've got cooked pork ready for munching that weekend.

[Skeet]

The only thing I would carry in my haversack is salt pork or side meat. Here in the valley it is easy to get at any country store. I agree that the canteen half is the most historically accurate. I most definetly would not carry regular bacon or sausage to an event, I have seen someone pull out of his haversack bacon in plastic wrap! The shame! Stick to the basics! Pvt.Dan Morgan, 10th VA

[tarheelpvt]

I agree with EWTaylor. Stick with the canteen half. Less is better. Supplementing your rations with sausage or bacon? Mostly my rations consist of one hunk of slab bacon, some corn meal or a tater for the weekend. As I said before less is better.

Dave Foytlin
Full Moon Mess

[tarheelpvt]

On a second thought about a supplier of bacon or sausage. If you happen to have a Farmers Market near you. That is the best place to look. At the Raleigh NC Farmers Market you can pretty much buy any part of the hog you want.

Dave Foytlin
Full Moon Mess

[10TnVI]

Mike-On the matter of cooking utensils- both small sheet steel frying pans and canteen halfs are 'authentic'.Both have advantages and disadvantages. The question to ask is which would you be willing to carry 12 miles a day. Is the utility worth the extra weight to you.

On the matter of meat- Sausages are period appropriate, usually the hard varities but 'loose meat' was not unknown- two citations on the subject

In "Some of the boys' the C.W. letters of Issac Jackson-in a letter to his father from Natches, Mississippi- requested his father send him
2 qt cans of butter, 2 of mollasses, 1 of tomatoes and 1 can of sausage meat.

from "From Antietum to Fort Fisher", the C.W. Letters of Edward K. Wightman(9th NY/3rdNY)-in a letter written from Gates Mill, Va. he discussed the contents of a proposed box from home- "Then for eatables you may send cheese, Germanbread(schwarzbrod), German Sausages(the big fellows that are eaten in slices), solid cake or gingerbread of a kind that will keep, cayenne pepper, any sort of sweetmeats that go well with crackers(in short broad-mouthed bottles or tumblers), dough-nuts...."

Many sutler inventories also list bologna sausages as an item.

Check your local store, many will carry 'country bacon' in vacumn packed wrapping. Don't forget that frequently they were issued or procred fresh meat. Boil beef or pork at home before you leave and it will keep easily over the average event. Just remember to reheat it enough to kill any stray bacteria.

From "This Wilderness of War" the C.W. letters of George W. Squier
Letter dated Dec. 4, 1862, entry dated Dec. 5, 1862. The 44th Ind was on pickett duty at the time
"...Lieut. Wayne came to camp to day and brought 10 loaves of bread. fortunatly we had just drawn beef, so we had quite a feest(sic)- soft bread and steak. Our usual fare is hard bread, "sow belly" and coffee..."

Letter dated Dec. 8, 1862 from Nashville.
"Not long since, Gen. Debility(alias Van Cleve) was riding along(this he was telling Crittenden), came up on the 13th Ohio, and saw them dressing a hog as they was marching. He came up top the 44th, saw them skin, dress, cut up and put in their haversacks a sheep without losing a step."


Letter dated Jan.5, 1863 discussing his units approach to Murfreesboro on Dec. 26, 1862
"About <?> o'clock I heard a solitary cock, more wakeful than his brothers, give one loud, long, but unfortunate crow.Now there was little sleepfor any of the boys. From that time until day light all hands were busily engaged in catching, picking,roasting without salt, and eating.... Chickens, ducks
& turkeys, with an occasional fine mutton, all nicely dressed, hung suspended from almost every tree, while beneath them was feathers to the right of us, feathers to the left of us, feathers in front of us, feathers in rear of us."

[Barclay]

Geez Dusty, you are starting to sound knowledgeable on the subject of cooking! ;) Now, if we can only teach you how to actually cook the food instead of just posting on the internet about it! :D (my apologies Sir, I am feeling ornery today)

The material where Dusty found this information is available on www.wythegrays.org - under the article "Cooking on Campaign with the Stonewall Brigade" - obviously Confederate, but some good info for Federals as well.

-Bret Sumner





Frank Ellis
Rt. 1, Box 341
Greenbriar, TN 37073
615-643-4842

Frank's skillets are very good and period accurate. He has a personal size available.

As to bacon vs. sausage, I recommend slab bacon from Scotts Hams www.scotthams.com (http://www.scotthams.com) (#55) This meat needs no refrigeration and comes close to the meat the soldiers would have received on occasion.

Hope this helps

[Foggy Bottom Jim]

I have had good luck finding twice smoked slab bacon at International or German delicattesens in my area. They come in reasonable sizes for a few pards and you don't have to buy a whole slab. It's initially wrapped in plastic but I just stick it in the fridge til it's time to go and then remove the plastic and wrap it in brown paper. It doesn't make as much fat as salt port to fry up some skilleygally but the meat tasts better IMHO. The deli is also a good place to get dried German sausage like Landjaeger which is a dried sausage that will keep through an event and doesn't need cooking. This would be a foraged item of course in an area where there were well...Germans. It could perhaps be a sutler purchased as well. On an event where we have humped a long way I have taken a few each of Landjaegers, dried apples, hardtack and essence of coffee. This leaves room in my haversack for event issued rations. If issued rations are short, I can live on the above plus my modular food storage system (beer gut).
Jim Reynolds

[Silas]

I second the opinion about cooking rations before you go to the event. Makes your job simplier in the long run as you eat when you're hungry, not when you have the time to stoke a fire.

If there's a ration issue at an event, cook it all immediately upon receipt or upon sitting at the first fire you see. This isn't so much for sanitary reasons as for ease of handling. I love the stains in my haversack, but don't care for the mixing of the juice with other things found therein.

On a side note, it seems the discussion has obliqued from your question about sausage to answers about sausages. By "sausage", it seems you mean a pork product like Jimmy Dean, for example. It's not impossible for a soldier to have obtained sausage - likely foraged - but I have not seen the term, sausage, used on requisitions. I haven't looked hard for it either.

I do recall a thread a couple years ago in this forum which was entitled, "Is that a sausage in your pocket ..." I believe Paul Calloway initially posted it. Basically, the thread included some period accounts, an advertisement, and/or a requisition for sausages. The idea being that sausages cost less to ship and provided more usable product, pound for pound, than beef cattle. Based upon that thread, I've purchased sausages instead of a pork product for events if I didn't have time to cook meat before I left. Much easier to cook a few sausages in the dark for a day's ration than several slices of thick sliced bacon. (It's hard to find good salt pork in cosmopolitan Seattle although the stuff sold in Chinatown is pretty tempting.)

I've never favored fry pans due to size. I've used a canteen half for many years, but just switched to a copper plate over the winter.

[Vuhginyuh]

Don't forget the ham! This is the salty ''country'' variety.

These cured slices (Wayco Old Southern Hams) will keep a few days un-refridgerated if kept dry.

http://waycohams.com

Can I use a slice as my Avatar?

[flattop32355]

[B]Don't forget the ham! This is the salty ''country'' variety. These cured slices (Wayco Old Southern Hams) will keep a few days un-refridgerated if kept dry.

Now, here we go with the "authenticity" debate again! It's my understanding that soldiers' rations weren't all that tasty, and anyone who ever was blessed with a bite of country ham knows that that is just another name for Nectar of the Gods. :D

[Clark Badgett]

Woohoo, next time I do Perryville. I'm gonna stuff my haversack with sausages. Since the federal troops mostly came from Louisville, and this town is still full of folks of German decent ;)

[Vuhginyuh]

An abstract stating the cost of goods for contract listed; bacon, fresh pork, salt pork and lard, all fat and good, from $3.25 lb for the fresh meat to $5.00 lb for cured meats and lard.
Richmond Va July 13, 1864

O.R. Series I-Volume XL-Part III pps 766, 767

[adam_oswalt]

I was talking at work today about period meat packing and was trying to make comparisons to the modern day method, when I realized that I can stand to learn a little more about the subject. I've read bits and peices, but I can't fill in the details.

I doubt the method has changed a whole lot in 100+ years except for the inspection process, so my question is really more about the technology. In a regular butcher shop, how was beef killed? Was it knocked in the head as it is today? I've seen pictures of the hammers in the 18th century and the guy in the "yankee laundress" picture looks like he's holding a similar object.

The next question I have is whether or not the whole beef was split once it was gutted and skinned. That's how it's done now, but I can't imagine doing it by hand.

Thanks for any information that's posted. I'm sorry it got a little gross there, but it's not exactly a pleasant subject.

Adam Oswalt

[markj]

Hi Adam,

When it came to butchering in camp one of the very first orders issued by none other than August Willich himself, upon assuming command of his brigade in August 1862, was that all animals were to "be killed with the knife." That means slitting their throats.

Willich issued this order because his troops had a nasty habit of shooting hogs and cattle while in camp. Very convenient...but it played hell with the pickets: There was only one thing more terrifying than receiving fire from your front; that was the sound of firing coming from your REAR.

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[Alamo Guard]

Speaking of sausages, I remember somewhere of the Texas Brigade buying sausages from a local vendor. The men were digusted to find a tooth and claw from a cat in the sausages.
We have a large german and polish community here in south Texas. Dry sausage is everywhere. It will last for months if stored properly. As far as fresh sausage due to its fat content I would never even consider taking some out for a weekend due to its quick shelf life and bacteria.
Most of the dry sausages were made in natural casings consequently they would be smaller than the cold cuts we see today.
Too bad the wonderful discussion on period bologna was deleted. There was a trove of useful information.

[va-yank]

In one of the other threads about bacon/sausage the topic of correct period skillets came up. Someone said the Skillet Licker is a good source. I have not been able to locate a skillet among Joe Hoffman's wares, nor do I think he has had them on his site in the past. I could be wrong.

Please feel free to post sources for closely matching or period correct skillets small enough for a soldier to hump in this thread. I had once bought a modern stamped steel item and long ago discarded it, never to be replaced.

Also: On some forum, maybe this one, there was a thread some time ago about "spiders", the cooking variety. I don't know if we ever reached consensus on one soldierly item that was the canonical spider or not. But this might be a good place to revisit that if anyone is so inclined.

[dusty27]

Fred,

As I said in the bacon thread, Mr. Ellis's pans are very accurate and his "personal" size, smallest, will fit easily in your haversack for a VERY reasonable price.

[Vuhginyuh]

Fred,
I have spider (trivet) with a strong NCT provenance. Forged, with fixed legs but still very portable.

A canteen half, small to medium skillet or boiler fit easily upon it.

Ill take a shot and send it to you if you would like one. If you have any luck posting images and want to share it, feel free to do so.

[DougCooper]

Frank Ellis
3031 Possum Trot Rd
Greenbrier, TN 37073-5741

gotta love that address...

7", 9" and 11" inch ultra correct skillets. I have the 11" cause my pards are cheap (don't have one) and throw their food into mine as well. Seriously, the 11" fits easily under your knapsacks straps or tied to the blanket roll...and weighs not a whit. The most you will spend is about $28 total - a great deal.

[va-yank]

"I have spider (trivet) with a strong NCT provenance. Forged, with fixed legs but still very portable.
Ill take a shot and send it to you. If you have any luck posting images and want to share it, feel free to do so."

Garrison, So your spider is a trivet... Yes, please post any pics, info.

IN the earlier discussion we got sidelined re the definition of a spider. My experience as a camper, years ago, was that a spider was more of a trivet to allow one to cook in the coals. Others insist that a spider is a legged skillet, stewpot or cauldron. I am sure we are all right.

Anyone have references to spiders/frypans/trivets in original source material? This subject was mined previously too.

Rice Bull in his memoir Soldiering mentions the division of labor among messmates, or comrades in arms. One carrying a hatchet, one a spider and one a skillet. This image of spider his description conjured for me was of a folding trivet. But I could be way off.

[Vuhginyuh]

Fred,

I agree with your conclusion about the spider being an iron trivet to raise a cooking vessel above the coals.

We called a cooking trivet or grate a spider in Scouts. I too know folks who stand behind it being a pan with legs. The results are the same. The trivet is just more versitile.(A legged cooking pot is often called a ''grape")

I think it is a non-objective question that relies on time and place for usage.

[straggler]

Just after the AC moved to this new server a question was asked
regarding skillets. At that time I posted a picture of a pair of Mr. Ellis'
skillets I have - one 7 inch; one 9 inch.

So if you go back to 1/01/04 you can click on the fingernail pic to see
a larger image.

Based on the scales at my local post office the 7" was just under 10
ounces, the 11 inch about one pound one ounce.

[Alamo Guard]

Spiders were used for a long time. There is ample mention of use by american forces in the Rev. War forward. A spider is called such because of the legs it has.
I have read past accounts of men taking the metal staves off some barrel and having them heated and rolled into small joined circles. They look like the modern burners you see on stoves. These were kept in mess chests and used for grilling meats and such. The height of the metal stave "grillers" elevated the item to be cooked off the coals.

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Fred,

I agree with your conclusion about the spider being an iron trivet to raise a cooking vessel above the coals.

We called a cooking trivet or grate a spider in Scouts. I too know folks who stand behind it being a pan with legs. The results are the same. The trivet is just more versitile.(A legged cooking pot is often called a ''grape")

I think it is a non-objective question that relies on time and place for usage.


Could you guys post photos of these articles, I have no idea what they are.

Also I carried Doug´s skillet up Lookout Mountain, It doesnt weigh anything and it was very useful.

[Vuhginyuh]

'Possom Time (Translations available for those Unfortunates North of the Tappahannock )

Oh, dip some ‘taters down in grease
En fling de dogs a ‘tater apiece.
Ram yo’ brogans clean ter de tacks,
Split de splinters en fetch de ax.
It’s ‘possum time again!
Catfish tender, catfish tough,
We’s done et catfish long enough.
We’s tar’d er collards en white-side meat,
En we’s gwine have supp’n wut’s good to eat.
It’s ‘possum time again!
De pot’s gwine simmer en blubber en bile
Till it gits scummed over wid ‘possum ile.
But le’ ‘s don’t brag till we gits de goods.
Whoop! Come along, boys! We’s off to de woods.
It’s ‘possum time again!

John Charles McNeill
Deep in the Sandhills of North Carolina

... makes me homesick...

[billwatson]

Merriam Webster

*Main Entry: spi·der
Pronunciation: 'spI-d&r
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English spyder, alteration of spithre; akin to Old English spinnan to spin
snip
2 : a cast-iron frying pan orig. made with short feet to stand among coals on the hearth

If this is garbled, my apologies, the website is still adjusting to my computer screen. :-)

[Vuhginyuh]

Could you guys post photos of these articles, I have no idea what they are.

Also I carried Doug´s skillet up Lookout Mountain, It doesnt weigh anything and it was very useful.

I could'nt get an image to load with a drop-forged, three-pound, ball-peen hammer.

[dusty27]

http://www.journalofantiques.com/hearthjan01.htm

This website has pictures of "spiders"

[Vuhginyuh]

http://www.journalofantiques.com/hearthjan01.htm

This website has pictures of "spiders"

As does this one; http://www.giantspiders.com/
You don't want one of these boogers in yer kit.

[Vuhginyuh]

Here's a spider too, says so on the handle. Sky-Line Drive,no doubt Reb issue.
And the hammer worked on the keyboard too. I highly recommend it.

[flattop32355]

I think I'll stick to the country ham. :D

[Vuhginyuh]

De pot’s gwine simmer en blubber en bile - BOIL
Till it gits scummed over wid ‘possum ile. - OIL

Now, that should be more appetizing...

[markj]

Greetings,

No guarantees for this recipe but it looks pretty interesting:

MEMPHIS DAILY APPEAL [GRENADA, MS], July 24, 1862, p. 1, c. 7

To make hard tallow candles.--Wm. Summer, of Pomaria, S. C., furnishes the following to the Charleston Courier:
To one pound of tallow take five or six leaves of the prickly pear, (cactus opuntia,) split them and boil in the tallow, without water, for half an hour of more; strain and mould the candles. The wicks should have previously dipped in spirits of turpentine and dried.
If the tallow at first is boiled in water, and the water changed four or five times, it will be bleached and rendered free from impurities. Then prepare, by frying with prickly pears, to harden it.
In this way we have made tallow candles nearly equal to the best adamantine.

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[markj]

Greetings,

Here's another recipe:

MOBILE REGISTER AND ADVERTISER, October 11, 1862, p. 1, c. 4

[For the Evening News]
Tallow Candles Equal to Star.

Messrs. Editors: It may be of interest to your numerous readers to know that, with not a cent of additional expense, tallow candles can be made fully equal in point of merit to the common star candle.
To two pounds of tallow add one teacupful of good strong lye from wood ashes, and simmer over a slow fire—when a greasy scum will float on top; skim this off for making soap, (it is very near soap already) as long as it continues to rise. Then mould your candles as usual, making the wicks a little smaller—and you have a pure, hard tallow candle, worth knowing how to make—and one that burns as long and gives a light equal to sperm. The chemistry demonstrates itself. An ounce or two of beeswax will make the candle some harder, and steeping the wicks in spirits turpentine will make it burn some brighter. I write with one before me.
Yours, W.


Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[Vuhginyuh]

What about spermaceti?
I'm sure they are not easy to come by...

Ok, SHUT UP all you Bevis and Butthead fans I can here the sad little comments and chuckles from here.

What I meant is the white, waxy substance consisting of various esters of fatty acids, obtained from the head of the sperm whale or another cetacean and used for making candles, ointments, and cosmetics. That is really not much better is it?

The curator of archaeology at Colonial Williamsburg stated that spermaceti candles were the most common store bought type from about 1820 to 1900 and quite impossible to obtain today.

[Vuhginyuh]

Here is a TRIVET belonging to Nathan Byron Parker and Richard Brite Parker Co. A, 27th North Carolina Troops. It is roughly 6'' across, 10'' long and 1 5/8'' high.

[hireddutchcutthroat]

I could'nt get an image to load with a drop-forged, three-pound, ball-peen hammer.


Try a trip hammer!

[coffee boiler]

As already pointed out, the term “spider” has an inconsistent usage. When this was discussed about a year ago, one poster pointed out that where he grew up a “spider” was just another term for a regular frying pan as opposed to the more proper usage of a frying pan with three legs. I suspect that when Rice wrote about the common practice of soldiers carrying “spiders” that he is really referring to a regular old frying pan, as I am not aware of archaeological evidence to support anything else.

From “Soldiering – The Civil War Diary of Rice C. Bull, 123rd New York Volunteer Infantry” edited by K. Jack Bauer and published by Presidio Press.

October 1863
“Many changes had been made in their camp life and they were living very differently then when I left them at Aquia Creek. There were now no company cooks; rations were issued directly to the men and they prepared their own food. The three men who occupied a tent formed a mess, pooled their rations and did their own cooking. This plan proved to be most efficient as in this way a meal could be quickly had when needed. The only mess utensils required were a spider, coffee pot, and hatchet; each man had one article to carry. Under this system of feeding the men were more independent, well satisfied, and much better fed.”

[va-yank]

I stand corrected, Rice does not mention a fry pan but a spider. Ok, so we begin to assume that fry pan and spider are interchangable. Guess this an instance of my modern world interpretation of camp cooking equipment forming my mental picture of a spider.

Still interested in the trivet that Garrison shows as having a North Carolina CW provenance. Although it may be a real one of a kind relic.

[Vuhginyuh]

Here is a TRIVET belonging to Nathan Byron Parker and Richard Bright Parker Co. A, 27th North Carolina Troops. It is roughly 6'' across, 10'' long and 1 5/8'' high.


Neuman and Kravic's Collector's Illustrated Encyclopedia of the American Revolution refers to the artifacts in question as ''Three-legged skillets". Nothing more. (p 91, Cookingware). Two fine examples are shown along with broilers, braziers, trivets, toasters and cast pots. They are forged sheet iron and appeared to be lighter weight than the modern examples shown below.

Several 19th and early 20th century examples actually have the word SPIDER embossed in the handle.
This could be another example of a style being identified by a common makers name. (See attachment)

As to the reference to this post being addressed a year earlier, well, I'm new to the forum and do not have the old posts to refer to. Pardon my lack of experience and knowledge of those things hashed out before.

[coffee boiler]

Echo's of Glory has a picture of a soldier holding a cast iron spider in front of a log cabin. But I can't image these being routinely carried by the soldiers because of their weight. That is why I suspect that Rice is really referring to the common soldier's frying pan and not a cast iron spider.

[Jimmayo]

Here is a picture of a Dutch oven or "spider" ( take your pick) cover found in a 1862 camp of the 57th Va. It is hard to read but the firm that made this looks like Snyder of Richmond Va. I think we can all agree that one would not like to tote the bottom half of this cooking device any distance. Probably carried along in the camp wagon and would have been left in camp or stored for spring and summer campaigns. Usage may also have been limited in CS service later in the war due to other consideratiions. Like wise, frying pans with legs poking out would also be hard to carry and would have likely been carried in a wagon. From parts of frying pans I have found and others I have seen, soldiers were cooking with small frying pans with no legs and wrought iron handles while on the march. A large version on one of these can be seen in in the background of one of the pictures posted recently of Union soldiers removing a cannon from Confederate works at Petersburg.

[Vuhginyuh]

Here is a picture of a Dutch oven or "spider" ( take your pick) cover found in a 1862 camp of the 57th Va. It is hard to read but the firm that made this looks like Snyder of Richmond Va. I think we can all agree that one would not like to tote the bottom half of this cooking device any distance. Probably carried along in the camp wagon and would have been left in camp or stored for spring and summer campaigns. Usage may also have been limited in CS service later in the war due to other consideratiions. Like wise, frying pans with legs poking out would also be hard to carry and would have likely been carried in a wagon. From parts of frying pans I have found and others I have seen, soldiers were cooking with small frying pans with no legs and wrought iron handles while on the march. A large version on one of these can be seen in in the background of one of the pictures posted recently of Union soldiers removing a cannon from Confederate works at Petersburg.

Very nice, thank you Jim.

[Vuhginyuh]

One thing not discussed in this thread is the ''mess'' theory.
The heart of this is: Share the food, Share the duties at the fire, Share the weight.

I like the use of a fork mention above to handle the skillet without a handle.
A cloth works well too. Plus any soldier used to cooking on coals adjacent to an open fire or hearth should have more heat tolerance than we do.

[Vuhginyuh]

One thing not discussed in this thread is the ''mess'' theory.
The heart of this is: Share the food, Share the duties at the fire, Share the weight.

I like the use of a fork mention above to handle the skillet without a handle.
A cloth works well too. Plus any soldier used to cooking on coals adjacent to an open fire or hearth should have more heat tolerance than we do.

Did someone ask the best way to cook on these things?

I have a great deal of experience cooking on forged and cast iron critters like these if anyone is interested.
We have a cooking hearth in an early out-building kitchen.

[Enfilade]

I think through one of our guy's research on this subject we found only one reference to "spiders" in the wagons behind the line of march.

Were they around? Certainly. In the CMH newsletter I've read about them in Rev War being even more in use. The problem is that unless you're using an original, they aren't correct. The reason they aren't correct is because today's method of cast iron manufacturing is much different than it was then. The method changed about 1880's-ish. We can , however, get much closer to camp cookware by using the sheet metal cooking implements. That's what we do. I would love to cook some hominy in a cast iron spider if we could get the molten poured right in a cast iron mold. It would be distinctive with a line down the middle of the bottom. I believe Hank Trent posted a picture of this last time this subject came up.

Mark Berrier
North State Rifles
combinations@northstate.net

[Vuhginyuh]

I think through one of our guy's research on this subject we found only one reference to "spiders" in the wagons behind the line of march.

Were they around? Certainly. In the CMH newsletter I've read about them in Rev War being even more in use. The problem is that unless you're using an original, they aren't correct. The reason they aren't correct is because today's method of cast iron manufacturing is much different than it was then. The method changed about 1880's-ish. We can , however, get much closer to camp cookware by using the sheet metal cooking implements. That's what we do. I would love to cook some hominy in a cast iron spider if we could get the molten poured right in a cast iron mold. It would be distinctive with a line down the middle of the bottom. I believe Hank Trent posted a picture of this last time this subject came up.

Mark Berrier
North State Rifles
combinations@northstate.net


From post # 19 above

“Neuman and Kravic's Collector's Illustrated Encyclopedia of the American Revolution refers to the artifacts in question as ''Three-legged skillets". Nothing more. (p 91, Cookingware). Two fine examples are shown along with broilers, braziers, trivets, toasters and cast pots. They are forged sheet iron and appeared to be lighter weight than the modern examples…”

This is a great reference with 19th century applications as well.

You can find it for sale at:
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=2U5A6HP26I&isbn=0960566678&itm=12

[Moonshine]

Didn't Sam Watkins say something about a guy in his company that carried one in his knapsack? I asked this question before the "meltdown" because I got a cast iron spider (like the one pictured in EoG Confed) off eBay and was inquiring if any one actually had reference of someone toting this beast around. I got "Co. Aytch" as a reference yet I don't recall the exact passage.

Jim Ross

[Hank Trent]

The problem is that unless you're using an original, they aren't correct. The reason they aren't correct is because today's method of cast iron manufacturing is much different than it was then. The method changed about 1880's-ish. We can , however, get much closer to camp cookware by using the sheet metal cooking implements. That's what we do. I would love to cook some hominy in a cast iron spider if we could get the molten poured right in a cast iron mold. It would be distinctive with a line down the middle of the bottom. I believe Hank Trent posted a picture of this last time this subject came up.

You're talking about gate marks, and I think the pictures I posted may have been from current eBay sales. A search on eBay for "gate mark" and "cast iron" or some similar combination may turn up some examples, since sellers like to show off the mark to collectors.

Original cast iron is lighter, and does generally have gate marks, and it's unfortunately in that vague gray area for putting originals at risk. It's pretty sturdy, but it's potentially breakable--like using an original gun. In most situations, I agree that we can recreate an 1860s world without cast iron, but there are some contexts where it's appropriate to use cast iron, and in those cases some decision needs to be made about what's accurate enough vs. affordable enough vs. responsible enough, at the current state of reproductions. No easy answer.

My wife and I use original cast iron in a controllable indoor environment, but even where it's historically appropriate, I wouldn't take originals out where there's more risk of them getting knocked around and broken, like in a wagon, and in that case would accept the use of reasonable reproductions (without, say, a large modern logo embossed no them). Others might never use originals, or use them regardless of risk, just depends.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[markj]

Hi,

Has anyone had any trouble receiving items from Frank Ellis? I ordered a skillet from him over a month ago and have not, as yet, received it. Does he sometimes run into production bottlenecks?

Thanks,

Mark Jaeger

[CSA Engineer]

Good Day Pards--I want to make an Authentic looking box to hold all my gear and extras while at events. Does any one know of a good source on how to build one, or have some tips on this? Thanks in Advance...


Pvt. Michael Moffett
Co. E 3rd Regiment
Confederate Engineers

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo Herr Michael!

Welcome to the AC Forum!

I will assume you are requesting information on "engineer" type impressions, and not on wooden storage boxes for infantry as that would be neither "authentic" nor "campaigner" and not approppriate for this forum.

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt
Moderator

[CSA Engineer]

Your assumption would be correct, sorry for not making that clear. To clarify I am with an Engineer Company, and an Engineering impression is what I will be using the box for. Most of the guys in my unit have these "wooden"types of boxes for their gear. I was just wondering if any one knows of a good source on how to make my own Authentic Box. I asked the guys in my unit and I get a mixed bag of responses, so I hoped I would get a better idea by posting my questions here. Thanks again for any and all information!

Pvt. Michael Moffett
Co. E 3rd Regiment
Confederate Engineers

[K Bartsch]

Michael,
I think it would help if we knew what you needed to store. Are we talking surveying equipment for a topographical engineers impression or are we talking picks, mattocks and shovels? Either way, we kind of need to know what kind of gear you're talking about. If its personal equipment, I agree w/Curt that it shouldn't be in boxes. It should be in a knapsack or bedroll.
Good rule of thumb to keep in mind is if you need a box for the extra "stuff' you're probably bringing too much.
Cordially,
K. Bartsch

[hireddutchcutthroat]

I guess the next thing to do after you know what kind of equipment you are going to store, would be to track down a surviving original or plans of an original to copy. I would look through the ORs and maybe contact the MOC.

[Yellowhammer]

Not trying to be difficult here, but wouldn't implements be carried in a wagon or on your shoulder?

Other than delicate instruments like surveying tool or optics, I'm not sure what "gear and extras" an engineer company would be crated.

[Johan Steele]

As a note to this discussion I recently saw two originall hardtack boxes that had been converted into useful tool chests. I don't know if this was done during or after the war but the work was quite nicely done. And both boxes were quite robust.

Each hardtack box had been lined w/ what looked like cedar shingles and compartments had been created in this way. The lid had been hinged by the addition of leather hinges and handles had been created by riveting (I believe that's how they were attached but I'm not certain) a partial horseshoe to each end. I was very suprised when I realized what the tool boxes had been originally. The printing was faded but still legible as was a pair of painted on crossed sabres (though they were faded enough that they may have been either cannons or hatchets w/ what appeared to be either a farriers insignia or a badly faded number above, this marking was actually more faded than the original markings. I'm kicking myself for not dishing out the $ to buy them as I think it would have been an interesting show piece... but I have a house payment, bills and a family to feed.

Sigh, I hate responsability getting in the way of the hobby.

[BrianHicks]

If I recall correctly, it was Co. E, Conf. Engineers that always had several boxes of various kinds when I had seen them at the Riley's Farm events, and the Vista Steam Engine Museum event. Signaling lamps and other engineer related equipment seemed to be what was stored in them (if I remember correctly).

[CSA Engineer]

Yes Brian, your memory serves you correctly.My intent for the Box was to utilize it for my Engineering equipment, in the same manner that you have mentioned. I do not intend to make so large as to store pics shovels and the like in it, I was mainly thinking something roughly the same size as a hard tack box. I dont want it so large that it would take 2 men to lift it! Again thanks to all for the help.


Pvt. Michael Moffett
Co. E 3rd Regiment
Confederate Engineers

[Yellowhammer]

Since you just need storage boxes for whatever it is you are storing, why don't you just make some cracker boxes?

Why would engineers have signal lamps? Pardon my ignorance, but I thought such implements would have been in use by the Signal Corps.

[RLSchwartz]

I'm tired of burning beeswax candles! Anyone have a source for tallow ones...?

Much appreciated in advance for any help!

Jim Ross

Mr. Ross,
Perhaps this period newspaper article will help you with your research.
Regards,
Robin Schwartz

~~~~~~~~~
LOUISVILLE DAILY JOURNAL, November 19, 1862.

[Note: There are actually two tables with this article. Table I compares “The Relative Cost to Consumers of the Illuminating Materials in Use in Lafayette, Indiana.” Table I was very difficult to read from the photocopy I used for my transcription. Therefore, I only transcribed part of it below.

The candles mentioned in Table I (column 1 – type of candle, column 2 – origin) are:]

Red wax candles (4’s), from Josiah Macy, N.Y.;
Green wax candles (fragment) from Josiah Macy;
Paraffine candles (6’s) [origin not clear, perhaps Macy?];
Tallow candles (6’s) from “E.T. Jenks, Lafay’tte”;
Sperm candles (4’s) “10 years old”;
Star candles (6’s) from Cornwall & Brother, London;
Star candles (4’s) (10 years old) from Werk & Co., Cin[cinnati];
Star candles (6’s) Proctor & Gamble, C[incinnati];
Star candles (6’s) Dennis & Co., N.Y. Cincinnati.

The cost of lb. of candles by count (column 3), cost of “real” lb. (column 4) and melting point of the candles (column 6) was:

Red wax $0 50 $0 562 117-115 degrees
Green wax --- --- 115-113 “
Paraffine $0 60 $0 689 129-126 “
Tallow $0 13 $0 161 117-198 1/2 “
Sperm $0 46 $0 430 117-113 “
Star [C&B] $0 25 $0 303 127-115 “
Star [Werk] $0 25 $0 277 138-131 “
Star [P&G] $0 25 $0 253 131-122 “
Star [Dennis] $0 25 $0 254 120-117 “

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
C A N D L E S.
[Table 2]

The candles tested were purchase at different places, at the retail prices noted in column 3 of the above table. Having weighed a pound, _by count_, of each, its price for a true pound was calculated, giving the results of column 4. The following numbers represent the thickness of the respective candles at the base, with the nature of their wicks:

Thickness of No. of Strands No. of Threads in
Candle--Inch in Wicks Each Strand

Wax, red 7-8 3 loosely braided. 21
Wax, green 13-16 3 loosely braided. 24
Paraffine 7-8 3 braided. 16
Tallow 13-16 Twisted. 21
Sperm 7-8 2 twisted. 18
Star [C&B] 27-32 3 braided. 2[?illeg.]
Star [Werk] 13-16 3 braided. 27
Star [P&G] 13-16 3 braided. 24
Star [Dennis] 13-16 3 braided. 24

The degree of fineness of the threads composing the above wicks varied, the tallow wick being as usual very coarse. The star candles arranged themselves in the following order in this respect, proceeding from finest to coarsest threads: Werk & Co., Dennis & Co., Procter & Gamble, Cornwall & Brother. The wick of Werk & Co. was uneven and tightly braided; that of Procter & Gamble not uniform in thickness of braid. The threads of the Paraffine were the finest of all the wicks.
When the candles were all viewed burning together, the flame of the paraffine at once signalized itself by the shortness, superior whiteness, and steadiness of its flame. The cup formed at the top of the candle is deep, and of sharply defined edge. This candle would make an admirable photometric standard, especially since the fineness of the wick would diminish its disturbing action upon the flame.
Of the star candles, the Cornwall burned in the most satisfactory manner, and the Dennis & Co. in the least so, the latter flickering and running much. The Procter a& Gamble candle burned well , but with a tendency to run and flare. The Werk & Co. candle was satisfactory in the manner of its burning, but gave less light than the others. This candle, ten years old, was the whitest and fairest in material of all the stars. That of Dennis & Co. was the _greasiest_. The latter candle is marked “chemical sperm,” and is doubtless a mixture of stearic aid, with unsaponified fat. An alteration of the wick would no doubt render the candles of Procter & Gamble, and those of Werk & Co., equal in every respect to the best star candle.
As may be seen by Table I, the star candles vary very much in cost to the consumer.
A count lb. of Cornwall & Bro. candle weighed 5,767 grains.
“ “ Procter & Gamble candle weighed 6,903 “
“ “ Werk & Co. “ “ 6,316 “
“ “ Dennis & Co. “ “ 6,886 “

instead of 7,000 grains. As Procter & Gamble advertise their candles as of full weight, I weighed samples from two different boxes with the above result.
The deficiency of weight of the other candles is as follows – a lb. by count, instead of 7,000 grains weight:
Of wax, red. . . . . . . . . . . . . 6,224 Tallow . . . . . . . . . . . 6,498
Paraffine . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6,096 Sperm . . . . . . . . . . . 6,500

The cost of the candles is also influenced by the different rapidity with which they burn. See Table I. [note: I did not transcribe all of Table I. RS] From column 9, which represents the hourly actual cost of burning the several lights, it is seen that the Cornwall & Werk candles cost nearly alike, viz.: almost 7 mills; that the Procter & Gamble candle is the cheapest being worth a little over 6 mills; while the Dennis candle is the dearest of all the stars. The sperm candle costs 9 mills per hour, and the Paraffine, at the price received here, is the dearest of all candles. The tallow candle is the cheapest of all the lights in actual cost of burning – a little over 3 mills per hour; but its light, at the very best, is only ¾ that of the star; and with a long snuff, as they are frequently seen, the light is 1/10th that of the star candle.
If we combine the quantity of light with its cost, the Procter & Gamble candle is cheaper than the Cornwall by about ½ mill a per hour; but if we take into account the waste from the facility of running of the former candle, the Cornwall will be found superior to all of the star candles which I have examined. If a tallow candle be kept constantly snuffed, its cost for equal light is less than that of the star candle; but, as usually burned, its cost surpasses that of the sperm, and equals that of the expensive paraffine; while, as frequently seen with a long snuff, its cost surpasses that of all other light. Ure [Dr. Ure, scientist] found that a tallow candle unsnuffed loses in intensity of light, “in 30 minutes 80/100ths, in 39 minutes 86/100ths, in which dim state it remains stationary,” with which observation my own accords.
Reference to the melting points demonstrates that the sperm candle tested was perfectly pure. These points were determined in the usual manner, by inclosing the substance in a capillary tube tied to the bulb of a thermometer, which was placed first in water gradually heated, and then gradually cooled, determining first the temperature for perfect limpidity, and then that for perfect opacity; as may be seen in column 6, Table I.
[Transcription by Robin Schwartz, March 26, 2002]

[jigadier brindle]

Pards,
A simple websearch provided a link to a historic property operated by the NPS which sells hand dipped tallow candles, their site can be found at, Gifford House (http://www.nps.gov/care/public.html_Website/store_gifford.html) . Scroll down, and you can find the hand dipped tallow, apparently with some beeswax added, and if you buy from this site the proceeds seemingly go towards a good cause.
-I'm also including a link to the "Vintage Volumes" website which is one of the few, if not the only supplier of authentic stearin candles, they can be found at: Vintage Volumes (http://www.vintagevolumes.com/candles.html)

Hope this helps,

-Nicholas Redding

[Hank Trent]

Here's another source for stearine candles. http://www.wjgallery.com/sx010001.htm When we ordered some a while ago, we asked if they were 100% stearine and the company said yes, but it wouldn't hurt to double-check.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[SparksBird]

Good luck finding spermacetti in this day and age. The whaling industry just isn't what it used to be. But, I did hear a neat story from a friend a while back that worked at Greenfield Village. She said that they actually had an old barrel of spermacetti that had been sitting around for some time and that they actually made some candles from it. However, she did say that these were not for sale and were only made for their purposes.
Lastly, I couldn't miss this opportunity to tell one of my favorite Allendale Melodian jokes: "How am McClellan's Army like de tallow candle? Dey both runs when it gits hot!!!"

Rick Musselman
Buckeye Mess
GHTI

[Moonshine]

Nicholas,

Thanks for those links. One time I visited the Hans Herr house in Penn. and if I can recall, they may have had candles there too, much like the "Gifford House".

Jim Ross

[markj]

Greetings,

Here's a "hardbread" box according to Trans-Mississippi Confederate specs:

‎[LITTLE ROCK] ARKANSAS TRUE DEMOCRAT, October 1, 1862, p. 1, c. 7‎
To Carpenters.‎
Office Chief Commissary Trans-Mississippi Department,‎ ‎}‎ ‎
Little Rock, Sept. 27, 1862.‎ ‎}‎ ‎
Sealed proposals will be received at this office, until Monday, the 5th day of October, A. D. 1862, ‎for making Two Thousand Boxes for packing Hard Bread.‎ ‎
The Boxes are to be two feet long, 1 foot 6 inches wide and 1 foot 5½ inches deep, in the clear, ‎and to be made similar to a specimen which may be seen at the office of the Post Commissary.‎ ‎
I will furnish lumber and part of the nails, for which the contractor will pay cost prices.‎ ‎
The boxes must be delivered at the rate of 5 per cent per day, of the contract, and bids will be ‎received for five hundred boxes. Bond with approved security will be required.‎ ‎
John C. Palmer, Maj.‎ ‎
and Chief Commissary. ‎

The specs above (24 L x 18 W x 17 1/2 D) vary significantly from those mentioned in previous posts for Federal boxes. I'm not sure why this is so, but it likely had something to do with the actual size of the hard bread itself.

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[rebyank]

Does anyone know of any period wine, whisky or beer bottle labels? I have a good scource of period looking bottles, but I'd like to know about some labels.

sidedrummer@lycos.com

[markj]

Hi Ian,

Today is your lucky day. If you do the following, you will see an interesting image containing a bottle label:

1. Start here: http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/cwphtml/cwphome.html

2. Do a search with these key words: 114th Pennsylvania

3. Select photo #6 [Petersburg, Va. Officers of the 114th Pennsylvania Infantry playing cards in front of tents].

4. Download the high-resolution "tiff" version of this image.

5. Zoom in on the bottle immediately next to the zouave officer holding cards on the left-hand side of the table.

6. This bottle carries a label clearly marked "HADDEN'S OLD TOM COCKTAIL"

Close study of this label may provide sufficient details to make a fairly close reproduction.

Check it out!

Mark Jaeger

[markj]

Greetings,

On a somewhat related note, this classic bartending guide was first published in 1862:

HOW TO MIX DRINKS

or

THE BON VIVANT'S COMPANION

Containing Clear and Reliable Directions for Mixing all the Beverages Used in the United States, Together with the Most Popular British, French, German, Italian, Russian and Spanish Recipes, Embracing Punches, Juleps, Cobblers, etc., etc., etc., in Endless Variety.

By JERRY THOMAS

Formerly Principal Bartender at the Metropolitan Hotel, New York, and the Planters' House, St. Louis.

TO WHICH IS APPENDED A MANUAL FOR THE MANUFACTURE

of

CORDIALS, LIQUORS, FANCY SYRUPS, ETC., ETC.,

After the Most Approved Methods Now Used in the Distillation of Liquors and Beverages, Designed for the Special Use of Manufacturers and Dealers in Wines and Spirits, Grocers, Tavern Keepers and Private Families, the Same Being Adapted to the Trade of the United States and Canada.

ILLUSTRATED WITH DESCRIPTIVE ENGRAVINGS

The Whole Containing

OVER 600 Valuable RECIPES.

By CHRISTIAN SCHULTZ,

Professor of Chemistry, Apothecary and Manufacturer of Wines, Liquors, Cordials, etc., etc,. from Berne, Switzerland.

[Published in New York by Dick & Fitzgerald, 1862]

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[Bill Cross]

Bob Sullivan makes a good period whisky label.

[Dbackfed]

Does anyone know a any places that make a good period bottle? :sarcastic

Jason Krausz
Prodigal Sons Mess
36th ILL "B"

[PrettyBoyDonovan]

The Regimental Quartermaster has a new section for campaigners and I think I saw some in there. Can't really remember what style.

Does anyone know a any places that make a good period bottle? :sarcastic

Jason Krausz
Prodigal Sons Mess
36th ILL "B"

[Michael Semann]

Does anyone know a any places that make a good period bottle?
Dog River Glassworks does some of the most exact period bottle reproductions I've seen. Check out:
http://www.dogriverglassworks.com

[rebyank]

I cannot seem to get a hold of the large tiff pic, can anyone zoom in on it and post a zoom here? where's that guy that has been doing that with musket and apple pics? :D

[2ndNHDOC]

\Thank You Thank You

I have been looking for period medical bottles.

Brian Schwatka
Out of the loop mess.

[Michael Semann]

No problem Brian. I know certain items like these can be a real pain to find sometimes. Good luck.

[straggler]

Not as clear as I would have liked but here is a close up of the bottle in question.

Next - the wall tent in the same photo has buttons in front (and it
appears on the ridge).

To attach a fly??

[markj]

Greetings,

Yep, that's the bottle I mentioned. I suspect any concoction with the name of "Old Tom" must have been pretty potent, to say the least.

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[County Militia]

The Sullivan Press (http://www.sullivanpress.com/Civil_war.htm) has a variety of bottle labels to purchase.

A small selection:

http://www.sullivanpress.com/images/CivilImages/dcw401.jpg

[orngblsm]

Gents,

I'm looking for an accurate period soft bread recipe. Also was there a regulation dimension for each loaf.

Thanks

[Hank Trent]

Here are some recipes from Beecher's Domestic Receipt Book, 1850:

http://tinyurl.com/3d6sq (it continues on the next page, followed by one for homemade yeast)

Those two are typical of the two main variations I've seen in period homemade yeast bread--either using weaker homemade yeast, making a sponge and letting it rise a long time, or brewer's yeast and adding all the flour, skipping the sponge step.

There's another one in the same book for baker's bread (http://tinyurl.com/3d6sq) which might reflect commercial bakers' practice, but I haven't researched commercial bakeries to know.

In images and recipe quantities, many loaves appear to be about the same size as typical modern bread pans. But I'm sure there were many variations, and perhaps also military contract or other specifications for commercial loaf sizes, but I can't help with that part. :(

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[GreencoatCross]

I've got memoir and diary documentation stating that men in the field were sometimes detailed to set up and take down the "government ovens used in the baking of our bread." Surprisingly enough this quote came from a regiment in the middle of a late summer campaign.

I've seen a myriad of photos showing soft bread ovens in action, complete with stacks of emtpy pans and bread in pans waiting to rise. I'll see if I can find them and post them for you.

Brian White
Randolph Mess

Hmm....the first part of this was practically useless. I'll get those photos.

[Slouches_N_Slovens]

Soft bread recipe:

1. Take one piece of hardtack, place in dominant hand

2. Fill cup with water

3. Place piece of hardtack in water in cup

4. Allow hardtack to soak up water

5. Pull soggy piece of now softtack out of water

6. Enjoy "soft bread"

Repeat as needed.... ;)

[hardtack1864]

I wanted to know if anyone has bought tin cans or any kind of reproduction items from www.victortradingco.com? If so, are they good reproductions and how do there tin cans hold up to use?

[ephraim_zook]

Hi!

If you look carefully at the info in their website, it says "Cans are decorative only. The lids are soldered on." Whether or not they hold up to use is moot -- apparently you can't use them. Really nice looking labels, though. Too bad they are postwar.

Ron Myzie

I wanted to know if anyone has bought tin cans or any kind of reproduction items from www.victortradingco.com? If so, are they good reproductions and how do there tin cans hold up to use?

[BHoover]

Hi!

If you look carefully at the info in their website, it says "Cans are decorative only. The lids are soldered on." Whether or not they hold up to use is moot -- apparently you can't use them. Really nice looking labels, though. Too bad they are postwar.

Ron Myzie

There is no reason you couldn't put a period label on the can, then cut the top off and use the can for a boiler.

[markj]

Greetings,

Some weeks ago, I was asked to provide the specs stated in a Commissary contractor bid solicitation originally published in the 13 December 1862 Louisville "Daily Journal." I finally rediscovered them and they are presented below:

ARMY SUPPLIES.

OFFICE OF THE U.S. COMMISSARY OF SUBSTINENCE,
LOUISVILLE, KY., December 13, 1862.

Sealed proprosals made by first hands will be received at this office until 11 o'clock A.M. on Friday, the 19th of December, 1862 for furnishing the following substinence supplies:

***[Require] 500,000 lbs best quality Pilot Bread, packed in hickory strapped boxes containing 50 lbs net each, of fully seasoned wood, of such kinds as will impart no taste or odor to the bread, bottom and top of single pieces, or, if of two pieces, tongued and grooved together. The boxes must be 13 1/2 inches square in cross section, external measure.***

H.C. SYMONDS,
Capt. and Commissary of Substinence

The remainder of the notice also contains some interesting info on packing barrels for beans, rice, hominy, roasted (NOT green!) coffee, clarified sugar, star candles, hard soap, and molasses.

As stated in that "Military Collector & Historian" article, single piece construction of hardtack boxes was acceptable; however, two-piece construction was also perfectly fine depending on the time, place, and
contractor. The dimensions of the box stated above appear to significantly vary from those described in Kautz's book and the Army Regulations. Perhaps someone with more woodworking experience than I can determine the actual dimensions of a box "13 1/2 inches square in cross section, external measure": Maybe 27 x ? x 13 1/2?

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[Sam Doolin]

Greetings comrades,
It is my intention to attach photos of hardtack crates/stencils. Hopefully, I will succeed at this, but often it is a coin toss. These boxes are something we have been working on and hope to offer complete with the sapling bands which would make them a unique and more accurate repro of these boxes. I would like see what interest might be generated to justify the expense of possibly having laser cut metal stencils made. Hand cutting stencils is not an enjoyable activity.
Sam Doolin
The Old Rebel Workshop

[DougCooper]

Are these guys still around? The link we all used is bad and google only brings up the same link. Thanks in advance.

[Marc]

Are these guys still around? The link we all used is bad and google only brings up the same link. Thanks in advance.

Doug,

Try this company we have been using the past few years...

Bent Cracker Co.... http://www.bentscookiefactory.com/

[rebyank]

My father has decided to become our unit QM sergeant, so we might be interested in a few of these. do you have a price list made up,
Please send me some info on your boxes.

twelfthill@lycos.com

Thanks

[Company Tailor]

Sam,
What's your projected cost for the boxes? Retail? Wholesale? If it's in the budget I would probably get a few.

Very nice marking by the way.

Best,

[Tyler]

I had good results from them about 8 months ago. I'll check it out and get back.
-Tyler Putman

[79th N.Y.S.M.]

Are you talking about the Mechanical Baking Co?

[Tyler]

Hmm. You're right, the website
www.mechanical-bakery.com
isn't working. I do have their contact info if you want to try that:
Mechanical Baking Co.
P.O. Box 513
Pekin, IL 61555
kcjust@yahoo.com
(309) 353-2414
Hope this helps. As I said before, I had good service this summer, but they may have gone out of bussiness.
-Tyler Putman

[DougCooper]

thanks Tyler - will try them. Would not be good if they are defunk. Bents are somewhat expensive, if perhaps more edible than MBC. Will let you know.