CS scabbards

[Delhi Rangers]

Gentlemen:
Who is a good source for a bayonet scabbard for an AOT impression? I use a P53 Enfield bayonet. Who and what type would you recommend? Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks
Johnny Pullen

[1842musket]

Johnny,
I would recommend 2 sources in particular:

www.missouribootandshoe.com

www.orchardhillsutlery.com (specifically the CS scabbards made by Cary Davisson)

There is no particular "AOT style" bayonet scabbard that I'm aware of, and much like original CS scabbards I've seen with an ANV provenance, I've seen original CS scabbards with an AOT provenance with brass, tin, lead and iron tips. I personally think a brass tipped CS scabbard would be a good choice and Bob Serio (mo boot and shoe) can make you a documented CS scabbard with a sheet brass tip. There's nothing wrong with the lead ball tipped scabbards, but I think this is probably overrepresented in our hobby. More than 50% of the original CS accoutrements I've examined used brass in the finial, button or tip.

Hope this helps.
Cheers,
Larry McIrvin

[Clark Badgett]

Contact J.R. "Butch" Myers in Richmond, VA and he'll talk your ear off about accoutrements, and he says he has documentable proof that Richmond sent stuff to Georgia for the western armies, and vice versa. Call information for his #, he lives on Horse Pen Road.

[Texian]

I am looking at two original bayonets, one marked with an E over a crown over the number 30, the second marked with the number 46 under a crown and the letter B, the makers name of "REEVES & Co" ,and what appears to be a G over M or NC. Which is more appropriate, if either, for my 1862 Tower Enfield and why? Also, in the absence of any specific unit information regarding the type of scabbard issued, which is the most common for an ANV impression, the sewn scabbard or the actual Enfield style scabbard?
Thanks,
---Ed

[JimKindred]

Start with Robert M. Reilly's "American Socket Bayonets and Scabbards". There is a chapter on Confederate scabbards.

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo Kameraden!

Short answer on the bayonets: neither.

Bayonets with government markings such as you describe (Enfield inspectors' marks) or the British "broad arrow" denote British government ownership and were issued only with RSAF guns (although some argue some of these did come into the Confederacy very late in the War...).
Such bayonets, from around the world, and particularly Canada, having been flowing in the US for years now that the selling prices of "ACW items" have skyrocketed.

Bayonets can be tricky, as there is a legion of stampings such as initials, various stand-alone crowns, numbers, abbreviations, etc. At the risk of making a broad sweeping statement, no markings are often the best for ACW use.

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt

[Texian]

Gents,
Thanks for the info and leads.
---Ed

[Niels_Kaas]

A valuable, if somewhat prolix, source is Graham Priest's article, "'Enfield Bayonets' in the Civil War, 1861-1865," which appeared in Man at Arms, 24 #2 (April 2002). The primary focus of the article is on bayonet markings. It's worth checking out if you're serious about this.

Paul Lockhart
Copperheads

[Michael McComas]

The Reeves bayonet is actually the better candidate of the two. It's a contractor-made bayonet that was inspected in Birmingham. The Crown-over-B mark is the inspection mark of BSA, Small Heath, Birmingham, and was in use from 1861 until the 1960's. That mark in and of itself does not denote British government ownership because BSA was a contractor. (See Skennerton The Broad Arrow, p. 69 Inspection Markings) However, the G/M or G/NC is a unit marking. I'd have to see what and where it is to be able to tell you for sure what unit the bayonet belonged to.

[2MDF&D]

Also, in the absence of any specific unit information regarding the type of scabbard issued, which is the most common for an ANV impression, the sewn scabbard or the actual Enfield style scabbard?
Thanks,
---Ed
The sewn.
Rob McFarland

[Illinois Reb]

I tried the search function, but didn't find the answer I was looking for.

For CS bayonet scabbards, particularly, those worn by ANV infantry around 1862-63, what type of finial or tip was most prevalent? I've seen the all-sewn as well as lead ball finials for CS styles, but am unsure if one would be more appropriate than the other.

I've had touble in the past trying to figure this out from period photos as the majority of scabbards I see are on Federal troops. Most confederate photos that I've come across are either dead or captured soldiers where their accoutrements have already been removed. I prefer not to look at studio portraits as I'm not sure if the accoutrements worn are property of the soldier, or just studio props.

Sources are greatly appreciated.

Rich Stonikas
Co. D 17th Mississippi Infantry

[onemoreb]

The Richmond bayonet scabbard had a lead ball tip. Robert Serio makes a really nice one. There are also some Confederate scabbards with tin tips. There are few examples remaining of these due to the fact they rust away and disintegrate.

[Slouch]

I found a report in the OR's that documents some of the items purchased, manufactured, and issued between November ? 1862 and November 1863.

Bayonet scabbards:
1,675 repaired, 114,858 purchased, 15,379 fabricated, 167,018 issued

Cart. Boxes:
2,123 repaired 126,733 purchased, 34,666 fabricated, 171,251 issued

Cap pouches:
1,442 repaired, 157,402 purchased, 41,189 fabricated, 185,661 issued

As you can see, the most common type would be of the "purchased" variety. Im not sure if all of the purchased items were run through the blockade (ie British items) or if purchased items could in part be domestically produced items from private sources.

In regards to the domestic scabbards that are being reproduced today, the sewn tip and lead tip are about your only choice. Im not sure if anyone is producing a tin-tip scabbard. I do not know of any documentation that would make one style a more appropriate choice for a given time period. The tips could have varied between shops, or even within the same shop depending on what was on hand.

[Stonewall_Greyfox]

I found a report in the OR's that documents some of the items purchased, manufactured, and issued between November ? 1862 and November 1863.

Bayonet scabbards:
1,675 repaired, 114,858 purchased, 15,379 fabricated, 167,018 issued

Cart. Boxes:
2,123 repaired 126,733 purchased, 34,666 fabricated, 171,251 issued

Cap pouches:
1,442 repaired, 157,402 purchased, 41,189 fabricated, 185,661 issued

As you can see, the most common type would be of the "purchased" variety. Im not sure if all of the purchased items were run through the blockade (ie British items) or if purchased items could in part be domestically produced items from private sources.

In regards to the domestic scabbards that are being reproduced today, the sewn tip and lead tip are about your only choice. Im not sure if anyone is producing a tin-tip scabbard. I do not know of any documentation that would make one style a more appropriate choice for a given time period. The tips could have varied between shops, or even within the same shop depending on what was on hand.

Mike,

Great stuff! Can you post a citation from the ORs? Did this detail a particular Shop/Depot/QM Dept?

Paul

[Rev]

In regards to the domestic scabbards that are being reproduced today, the sewn tip and lead tip are about your only choice. Im not sure if anyone is producing a tin-tip scabbard. I do not know of any documentation that would make one style a more appropriate choice for a given time period. The tips could have varied between shops, or even within the same shop depending on what was on hand.


CD Jarnigan sells a tin tipped scabbard. I'm not an expert by any means, but mine has passed muster with some friends of mine who are more studied than am I.

[Slouch]

OR's, Series 4, Volume 2, Pages 955-958. The chart is on page 958, but the other pages of the report have alot of other cool info.

The numbers I listed were noted as coming from many "arsenals, armories, workshops, and depots". These are listed, but to numerous to write here.

[Jimmayo]

For CS bayonet scabbards, particularly, those worn by ANV infantry around 1862-63, what type of finial or tip was most prevalent? I've seen the all-sewn as well as lead ball finials for CS styles, but am unsure if one would be more appropriate than the other.

Rich Stonikas
Co. D 17th Mississippi Infantry

It's going to be impossible to answer your question as asked. There just are not enough surviving scabbards documented to time of use. In fact, compared to the total number of bayonet scabbards that were used, there are not enough surviving specimens to draw any conclusion except "they used one like that".

I suspect the tin tip scabbard was used in numbers but as mentioned above, not much is left of them when dug so there is no evidence of numbers used. I have seen one of the dug tips in good condition (I believe someone on this forum may have sent me the picture). Butch Myers has also done some work in this area and I believe he has made a few in the distant past.

I have recovered a good number of bayonet scabbard tips from CS sites especially 64/65 sites. Most are US mixed with a small number of Enfield types. I have dug a few large lead finials but could not tell what they were used on. There are also 1962 sites I have hunted along the Blackwater River where no scabbard tips were found. I don't know if that means they had sewn tips or just didn't have many bayonets at that time. May be time to examine the LOC pictures again.

[Charles Heath]

Rich, this is a good time to set aside three or four hours for a phone call to Butch.