The Monster Enfield Defarbing Thread

[Todd Watts]

Sorry I just read this about the Blockade Runner's Enfield worms. I noted the same thing, that they are too large. I pointed it out to Jerry and Phil there a few weeks ago and they were actually shocked. They've sold many of them but were not aware themselves how large the base is until I showed them on a musket off the rack. They do not have much need anymore to clean muskets since neither does much reenacting these days and the gear they do use is of their older stock. They just had had no reason to try the worms with patches in barrels so they were unaware of the issue. To make mine work, I chucked it into my lathe and shaved several thousands of an inch off the base and even off the prongs' outside diameter. However, this should not have to be done when you buy one meant to fit a .58".:mad: They are aware of the problem and are working with their supplier to resolve the size issue. In the meantime, I have noted that they have an exact replica worm available that they had copied and I bought 1 of those. It is precise and loose enough in the bore to allow a good sized patch with ease. They sell those so if you want to buy one of these tools, tell them to swap the worm with the narrower one copied from an original. If you have one of the larger ones, it is a stout piece and you can use it, but when sitting around camp one afternoon you need to take a file to it and just shave it all around. Don't get into a hurry and if it takes a couple of hours on Saturday and Sunday don't get too hot about it. It is easier to do when attached to your rammer. Believe me, I have done this to several in camp for other guys in the unit that bought the big ones. Figure it this way, it was probably similar to what soldiers back then had to do with some mis-sized parts of all sorts of gear issued to them. It can be explained to spectators in camp that way as well. Besides, it'll keep you from drinking too much that day!:D

[FlaYankee]

I believe this is what Mass Vol. was talking about. This was found via Geoff Waldens article on Enfields and he listed this as someone who has P53 parts;

http://www.peterdyson.co.uk/acatalog/RIFLE__MUSKET_PARTS___ACCESSORIES.html
http://www.peterdyson.co.uk/acatalog/RIFLE__MUSKET_PARTS___ACCESSORIES.html

Kindest Regards;:)

[50th VA Corporal]

For any of those AC members who have not had the opportunity to appreciate one of AC member Todd Watts' defarbed Enfields I can attest first hand his quality of work. I ordered my Armi Sport defarbed Enfield through Blockade Runner (BRI).

I had questions about the defarb and emailed Todd through the private message forum and he was quick with response and answered any and all of my questions and concerns. BRI informed me that from time of order placement to time of delivery was four weeks, but I received my defarbed Enfield in two weeks.

Todd did a special upgrade to my Enfield. Instead of the normal BSAT (British Small Arms Trade) stamp on the stock he used a new E. Bond stamp as the maker - so I got something a bit different than his normal defarb.

Having it arriving so quickly I had an opportunity to participate in a living history for a group of teen school kids where I was giving a session on the musket in particular - and it was, for the first time, I had the opportunity to do that session with an authenticly correct Enfield reproduction rather than one of a lesser correct reproduction.

Thanks Todd for the great work! I heartily encourage others to experience your craftsmanship. I look forward to using it next re-enactment season.

James T. Lemon
50th VA Corporal

[Todd Watts]

You are certainly welcome.:)

[FlaYankee]

Wow;:)
James could you post some pics of your EP Bond Enfield. I imagine it looks like this one;
http://www.collegehillarsenal.com/shop/product.php?productid=16417&cat=261&page=1
Kindest Regards;

[Todd Watts]

The one recently owned and sold by Mr. Prince at College Hill Arsenal is my "model" for the Bond gun I do. I am doing another one right now for Mr. Barry. I copied my stamp from the one in the Prince collection while I was doing all-night security at a militaria show where he had "foolishly" left his collection in my tender loving care.:D Lots of measurements, digital pics and pencil rubbings.

[stannie1950]

So after all of this discussion as to whether enfields were blued or not, has there been a final consensus? Perhaps some during the war were blued and others were stripped due to unit commanders, etc? Just an idea.

David Green

[LibertyHallVols]

So after all of this discussion as to whether enfields were blued or not, has there been a final consensus? Perhaps some during the war were blued and others were stripped due to unit commanders, etc?

To be brief and overly simplistic in answering all of the above: Yes :tounge_sm

[Todd Watts]

Yup.;) They were made blued, but after issue who knows. I tend to think they remained blued mostly but that old mercuric bluing wore off rapidly from sweaty hands, abrassion on the ground or tree bark or grime-encrusted wool, and from cleaning with scouring action. Wearing away rust bluing turns a light shade of brown and then goes gray. Some commanders evidently did tell the men to strip the bluing to make them match the bright guns, but that would have been for an individual officer to decide. And, when stripping the bluing this would have been a half/arsed job. These guns being sold with hammers, barrel bands, screw heads, and sights all 100% polished bright are probably more farbby than the "Euroarms" that is stamped on the barrel. The soldier simply would not have been able to perfectly polish the many nooks and crannies around the hammer neck ot the rear or front sight, nor would he have cared enough to polish the heads of the screws.

[Stonewall_Greyfox]

On July 2 or 3, 1863, Pvt. John Fallin of the 23rd Virginia Infantry lost or discarded his rifle during the fighting on Culp’s Hill, near the sleepy little town of Gettysburg, Pa. More than 140 years later, his Enfield rifle-musket, a veteran of the battle, plays a key role in remembering one of the most important battles in American history. American Rifleman

I highly recommend this article on Pvt. Fallin's Enfield Rifle. This appeared in the American Rifleman, the NRAs National Publication.

The rifle is now in the possession of the Gettysburg NPS Museum Collection. Interesting to note, that after seeing service, and being tossed on the battlefield, it has retained most of its original blueing.

Link to article: http://23rdva.netfirms.com/J%20A%20Fallin%20Rifle%20Story/fallin%20rifle.htm


Paul

[LibertyHallVols]

Have you seen this piece in-person? This photograph seems to indicate that the bluing is not intact.
http://23rdva.netfirms.com/J%20A%20Fallin%20Rifle%20Story/Getty2.jpg

The article makes not mention of the presence/absence of bluing.

[Stonewall_Greyfox]

Have you seen this piece in-person? This photograph seems to indicate that the bluing is not intact.
http://23rdva.netfirms.com/J%20A%20Fallin%20Rifle%20Story/Getty2.jpg

The article makes not mention of the presence/absence of bluing.

John,

It seems I have put my foot in my mouth...having made the assumption from the first pic (and not a very good one) that the blueing was in tact...that said, the second image (which you posted) shows that the area of the barrel with proof marks is completely devoid of any blueing.

I still highly recommend the article, even if my lack of attention to detail (blindness) on the pics, lead me to make such a bold statement (about the blueing being intact).

Paul

[Todd Watts]

The real test of bluing is under bands and under the barrel, especially the breech area. It is next to impossible to really know whether a barrel was rust blued the old ways unless you get into the hidden crevaces that would not have been handled. Also, when wanting to know if a lock is/was color-cased, you need to look behind it where it was never worn.

The breech area of the musket, back where the prrofs and gauge marks are was roughly used by cap blasts and collected a lot of corrossive soot that was not usually cleaned away well. Pits formed (see picture) which collected and held even more soot and moisture, sweat and acidic hand oils. No bluing, especially the old mercuric rusts can stand up to that treatment long before it turns gray, a color we now call patina.

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

Or oxidizes further to "plum" then to "brown."

Curt

[lukegilly13]

This thread is HUGE so please excuse if this has been posted. I was considering defarbing my own springfield (with little gunsmith experience) and I decided against it. Here's why....I can order a "kit rifle" from Euroarms (enfield costing around $350, springfield $375) and the stock comes unfinished. I can stain with whatever I want. I can actually order the barrel unfinished and do that myself as well. The bands are unfinshed and need to be "smoothed" as the edges are raw. Would this be easier to defarb? The problem of non-period markings (in metal parts) would still be there...but tremendous time and money saved on the stock and bands...right?

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

IMHO, yes, it IS cheaper in the long run NOT to pay for Italain workmen to do things you are going to undo or redo anyways.

However, "assembling" and "de-farbing" "kits" generally has a prerequisite of the "kit-builder" having a few necessary tools, the skill and knowledge to use them, and a basic understanding of what the "de-farb" work entails and ow to get there.

The other factor is that you would still have to pay a "service" to have the barrel proofs and stock cartouches that are missing added.

So, while I recommend kit building, or "de-farbing" already used guns that have taken the "depreciation," such work is for some but not universally for everyone.

I am reminded of an old friend of mine who was a barrel and stock maker, and decided to become a custom gun "builder." For the first few years, he was one of the few lads I knew who could take $600 worth of parts and build a $200 gun.

Curt

[lukegilly13]

For the first few years, he was one of the few lads I knew who could take $600 worth of parts and build a $200 gun.

Curt

I LOVE that quote! You summarized exactly what I was thinking. Numerous times I have read sutlers saying that their material producers will not produce materials as bad as the confederate government did and that their reproductions are as close as possible without creating a shoddy product. There are not many reenactors out there (me included) who would be willing to put their gun investment through what soldiers had to put theirs through. Also, i'm not sure I want to stand in the ranks next to someone firing moose loads who has "shaved a little here and there" off their weapon who had no idea what they were doing. Where is the cut-off between being authentic and being dangerous here? Insurance for events is expensive enough without increasing the number of exploded weapons. To anyone new at this, please seek AT LEAST guidance and supervision of a professional before "defarbing" structural parts.

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

"Where is the cut-off between being authentic and being dangerous here? Insurance for events is expensive enough without increasing the number of exploded weapons."

IMHO...

Oh, somewhere between the borders of India and Pakistan, and some events.
But I won't beat that Dead Horse again for the time being... ;) :rolleyes:

Seriously, it would be hard to reduce the barrel of an Italian reproduction arm down to the point it would burst with a blank charge or two and still fit into an Italian stock.

Curt
Whose once took heat for failing inspection on an Enfield with the most beautifully formed, large, ring half way down the barrel...

[Craig L Barry]

Speaking of Enfield de-farbing, Todd Watts has started doing the commercial Birmingham riveted brass nosecap, or at least mimicking the appearance of the riveted nosecap. For those who really want the details right...As far as building the Euroarms from a kit, it really depends on your woodworking skill and how much time you have to finish the roughed out parts. It is not "difficult" just time consuming. I would not recommend staining the wood, but rather seeing how it looks with a couple coats of boiled linseed oil. Keep in mind the original stocks are darker now, after accumulating 150 yrs of dirt and handling. You want to duplicate the way the weapon looked when it was issued. The stocks were not usually stained before being treated with BLO.

[Todd Watts]

Be aware that my "mimic" of the rivitted nose caps will permanently afix the nose caps to the stocks, just as the rivitted version does. To rivit them right would take rivits of the right size which I have been unable to locate, and a shaped anvil against which to swage them. Again, that is not easily located and is too much trouble to create. I have only done 1 so far, but will soon do a couple more to fill orders already made. (I am going to have to increase my prices as well as this is adding more labor and parts, but mainly due to the overall increase in living we are all seeing these days. I have not figured it out yet with BRI, but by summer I think it will have to be done.)

[COLDSTEEL1865]

THANKS TO ALL FOR THE INFO ON WHERE TO GO GO FOR DEFARBING.
Another question do they adjust or find bayonets that will fit the musket in my case is an 1861 Springfield i have been to sutlers at different events and cant seem to find one that fits right.:eek: thanks again


COLDSTEEL1865
"HAVE NO MERCY GIVE THEM COLDSTEEL"

[Todd Watts]

When you order from Blockade Runner, they find one that fits in their inventory or have me fit one to the gun.

[LonestarRifles]

For sanding the finish on the stock before applying the oil, what grade sand paper is best and easiest on the wood?
Thanks,
Patrick Smith

[Todd Watts]

To sand correctly, you need to use different grits. Always sanding with the grain, use a coarse grit like a 60 or 100 grit and rub firmly but not so firmly that you rip grain strands out. This grit gets the old finish off and light marks out. Steam-out any old dings you want removed now. Then, move to a 150 grit and then to a 220 grit. That is about as far as you need to go for Civil War stocks. If you want a finer finish you can go on to 320 and 400 grits, but I do not think they did that much back then. They also did not fill the grain back then on military stocks. When I do mine, I stop at 220 grit and whisker the wood by dampening its surface and allowing it to air-dry a couple of hours. This raises dust and whiskers from pores and grain creases. I then lightly sand again with 220 or 32o (whichever is handy) just to remove the rough-texture caused by raised whiskers. You can do this as many times as you want, but I find once is generally good enough for a Civil War stock. On modern stocks, I do go to finer grits, fill grain and whisker multiple times, but this gives a higher lustre finish than any military stock builder would have cared about offering.

[Craig L Barry]

Just to chime in, I usually give it a once over with steel wool after the final sanding. I don't know it seems to get the dust off the stock and prep it for the oil finish. When it is ready for the handrubbed BLO finish, the first coat soaks in fast, and you get a sense of how the wood is going to look. With steel wool buffing between coats, it helps manage the "shine".

[ACo.]

For sanding the finish on the stock before applying the oil, what grade sand paper is best and easiest on the wood?
Thanks,
Patrick Smith



The following applies to those considering the re-working of a finished reproduction to a more "correct" finish but also holds true with an unfinished kit gun.

Try a good grade of furniture stripper first. I have had good luck with "Formby's Furniture Refinisher" but it may not work as well as some of the stronger types available at any hardware/paint store. Whatever type you use, follow the directions on the can carefully. Some modern finishes do not come off with stripper right away, especially some of the plastic or epoxy based finishes that were in use back 20 or 30 years ago but current finishes seem to be easier to remove. If the stripper that you purchase does not seem to be working the way it should, talk to the people at the store, they may be able to recommend another type more suited to your finish. When the stripper has done its work and the wood is dry you can burnish with 00, 000 or even 0000 steel wool, I usually use 00 or 000.

Best avoid sandpaper altogether when refinishing a stock, it is the last thing you want to use and should only come into play if the finish can not be removed any other way. If you have to use it, start with 120 or 150 (no courser) and work to finer grades, the 120 or 150 will remove all of the finish. You can go as fine as 320 but it really should not be necessary, stop at 220 if possible. The course grits will removed too much wood too fast and you will have an uneven mess with gouges in the surface of the wood so use a sanding block and use long strokes to avoid this problem. And remember to sand with the grain of the wood, not across it (back to front, not up and down). Try to remove as little wood as is humanly possible, too much and the surface of the wood around your inletting cuts will be reduced and the metal parts (triggerguard, buttplate and lock, band springs, muzzle cap, etc.) will stand proud of the wood and it will look like crap. Also the barrel bands will become loose if too much wood is removed. Speaking of barrel bands, sand from the shoulder of one to the shoulder of the next one - if you sand over the shoulders you will round them over and are in BIG trouble. The above can also hold true when finish sanding a kit gun, use the same grades of sandpaper.

[Todd Watts]

I have used strippers to get the Euroarms shellac finish off, but usually just opt for a Fisher scraper. I have to sand mine as I really rasp-off a lot of wood to defarb them and then use belt sanders to get the rasp marks off before then moving to sandpaper. If you are just wanting to remove old stain and apply new, you may not want the coarse grit papaers I mentioned.

When at gunsmithing school, we did use steel wool to whisker stocks. However, we were warned that sometimes the steel wool pieces get ripped out by raised grain and then can rust in the wood pores leaving brown marks there. This is not that big of a deal for a musket. But on a moder rifle stock with a mirror finish it is an issue. Just something to think about when steel wool is being used. I don't use the wool anymore on the stocks for that purpose. I don't really find it is necessary if you use really light paper and use gentle pressure.

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

The reason for progressively finer grits is the same as for polishing metal- one progressively replaces deeper and more numerous scratches in the surface with finer and fewer until the human eye does not see them anymore.

The danger of sanding already finished stocks can come from too aggressive of wood removal from areas that need to remain well defined or "crisp," the rounding of edges, and the making of straight lines such as the forestock crooked or even wavy.
But when one is "thinning down" previously untouched oversized Italian stocks, and some wood removal is needed, abrasion does help cut through the old "plastic" Italian finish as well. (I also prefer scraping it with the edge of a knife and then retouching it with fine sandpaper.)


Curt
Who needs to strip a mid 1980's EuroArms stock ere we speak Mess

[VanceGuardsLT]

To all who have contributed to this thread: I just spent the last couple of days reading every post, and I have to say that there is some excellent information here. If someone could collate it into a research article (w/appropriate references) that would be grand. To me, it was almost like sitting in on a seminar on CW weapons, both original and repro.

Kudos to those of you who shared their observations on original pieces, and especially the photos.

[ACo.]

Curt and Todd, excellent recommendations on the scrapers, most people aren't aware of that method so I generally leave it out - nothing beats a scraped finish and in the days before sandpaper became common it was used exclusively to remove tool marks and even out to a fine finish - very little need for anything else since the scraper actually cuts the wood and leaves almost no compressed "whiskers". Next we'll be explaining how to use bone to burnish wood.... :wink_smil

Curt, that mid '80s EuroArms stock will give you fits won't it? I refinished on of Navy Arms first M1803 Harpers Ferry repops back in the mid to late '70s and the plastic finish was, to say the least, very difficult to remove. Six or seven coats of stripper and I still ended up scraping it to get bare wood. Sheesh! The wood turned out to be a low grade of European walnut sapwood but stained up pretty well. I generally try not to do reproduction stock from that era unless someone really needs the help. Oh, will you be at Newville in a couple of weeks?

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

Yes, I hate the old stocks with their 1/64 inch coat of poly... ;)
Most strippers after repeated applications seem to just turn it white rather than soften it enough to take off. :)
One of the "nicer" things about the modern era is that the Italains seem not to be using speckled linden (basswood) anymore and covering it with brown shoe polish before plasticizing the stocks. :rolleyes:

And yes, I be at Newville, although for the first time in a long time, ye lads are falling by the wayside, hors du combat, in increasing numbers.

Curt
Still making Sims Mess