Iron tent stakes...

[WoodenNutmeg]

Has anyone ever seen these evidenced?

http://i2.ebayimg.com/07/i/000/bc/85/196e_1.JPG

Bryan O'Keefe, Esquire

[C.R. Henderson]

Those look more like vent pricks for cannon use.

[boreguard]

From the way things look in the photo the lengths vary between each piece. I'm inclined to say they don't appear to be anything that was issued.
Intresting, though. How thick is the "stake" ? Is it steel , or iron ?
Just curious.

[Marc]

Look like Vent Picks to me...

[boreguard]

I just realized that in the subject line of the post he says iron. Well if they are iron they certainley wouldn't be vent picks. To my knowledge vent picks are usually brass or copper to prevent spark.

Could be some sort of telegraph wire hanger :) Who knows ? what is known about their origins I wonder ?

[Dreamer42]

They look like surveying chain pins. The front/lead surveyor would have a ring of 11 such pins. As he marked each 100 feet, he'd leave a pin. The rear surveyor would pick up the pin after he held on "O" and moved forward. After having measured 100 ft. ten times, if necessary, the lead and rear surveyor would exchange pins and begin process all over.

- Jay Reid
Dreamer42

[Jim Mayo]

They also appear to be too flimsly to be vent picks, in addition to what Dennis said in the above post, or tent stakes. They would never stand up to repeated use. Also, I have never seen any such items dug from a CW site. The only metal tent pegs I have dug are period railroad spikes from Globe Tavern area which is in Petersburg near the wartime Weldon RR and I am not even sure they were used as such. When you are near a RR it is hard to tell that the soldiers were doing with the spikes.

[AZReenactor]

Jay,
I think you may be on to something. They look quite similar to the surveying arrows (aka surveying pins or drop arrows) we were using on a survey expedition in California (http://picasaweb.google.com/azreenactor/September2007MappingExpedition) just last month. We were out surveying a hypethetical route for a new road near Fort Tejon and made quite a lot of use of the Gunter chain as were echoing back and forth "stick" "stuck" every hundred feet as we went along and dropped the survey arrows.

[WoodenNutmeg]

I think you may be on to something. They look quite similar to the surveying arrows (aka surveying pins or drop arrows) we were using on a survey expedition in California just last month. We were out surveying a hypethetical route for a new road near Fort Tejon and made quite a lot of use of the Gunter chain as were echoing back and forth "stick" "stuck" every hundred feet as we went along and dropped the survey arrows.

On to something indeed...

These were actually a recent eBay auction: CLICK HERE (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=230180972060&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=013)

Though the seller indicates that they were used as tent stakes, the buyer "linemarker2" does appear to bring a surveyors' validity to it.

With that said, is it possible that soldiers (very few) were using surveying picks as tent stakes during the war?

Bryan O'Keefe, Esquire

[AZReenactor]

With that said, is it possible that soldiers (very few) were using surveying picks as tent stakes during the war?

Bryan,
I can't really imagine there were. Aside from not being well suited to holding up a tent, survey pins are a tool that gets used over and not something that would get discarded readily. They are also a specialty item and would not be widely available where a typical soldier would encounter them just laying about waiting to be misused.

[Eureka Independent]

Hi all,

From conversations with my brother Tom (He is the Topo Eng attached to Troy and my outfit the 1st CA Inf Co F). Maybe there is a possibility they were lost or not seen as they are hard to see.

When our unit used them we had to tie pieces of cloth to each so it would be easier to see against the ground. And the question was aske a few times "Do we have all the arrows or pins?"

Maybe another possibility, is that depending on where the survey was (If it was in or near a active war zone) that the survey crew had to leave in a hurry due to the enemy being too close, or surprised by forward elements of the enemy, such as cavalry. With the crew leaving in a hurry to get to safety.

Over all the use of these and a Gunter chain was an interesting one to see in use and the resulting area map produced in the field from the measurements.

All the best

Don S

[tomarch]

I am also sure they are survey pins that would be used w/ a chain. I just got thru making a set to use along with a 66 ft. Gunter chain and range pole. Actualy using the gear in the field was interesting for a first try. I'm looking forward to doing this more and gaining more experience as it is one thing to study it, another to get out and do it...

I'm sorry to ramble on, but what were the circumstances surounding te discovery of those items? Wree they found together or were they from a variety of places? Was the location one that was I.D'd as a camp? That could shed some more light on their provenance

[tomarch]

I just went to the ebay site again and noted the legnth.. 9 1/4" is corrrect for survey arrows or pins. However there is no real conection between those pins and the War except for a vague ( and improbable) family story.

for an interesting account of chaining crew working in front of Williamsburg see "Eye of the Storm" by Robt. K. Snedon pg. 50 in the entry for April 17, 1862. This is why most military sketch maps were measured by pacing instead of measuring w/ a chain or tape.

[Dreamer42]

They really aren't that stable. One MIGHT use them for a static display, but I wouldn't want my shelter held in place at the risk of them coming out so easily.

The pins we (my dad was a surveyor) used were about 14 inches long, made of steel and we painted them red and white stripes to show up in tall grass. There are also longer pins, about two feet in length, for very tall grass.
Troy, your comments reminded me of having to yell out "Good" a hundred times as I held zero, while my dad would get a back alignment on my position with a range pole or the transit. The chain we used had a leather thong on the end. I'd wrap that thing around my hand and my dad would pull it so tight my hands would turn purple and get creases in them.
80% of the time we'd have to use a plumb-bob at the same time - not too many places in Oklahoma are flat. And "cutting chain" going up a steep incline was murder!
Some cool stuff was we often encountered a surveyor's mark from back in the 1870s - an up-right stone with an X chisled in the top - for a property or section corner.
Okay, sorry I got off topic. I can't think that surveying in 1860 was all that different from how I did it in the 1970s. Waaaaay before all of the digital and infra-red gadgets today.
Wanna hear more stories about getting shocked by cattle fences? or shooting a line through a briar patch? poison ivy? hornets? Subcribe to my new magazine called "Good 'Ol Days...yeah, right."
Okay...I'm finished.

- Jay Reid
Dreamer42
9th Texas

[Dreamer42]

Tom,
Sorry I didn't read your post before I posted the previous one...
I have a "Sketch Table" of WWI vintage which is a metal case, much like a brief case, that has a folding tripod which holds a small table. Inside the case one would find an inclinometer (basically a hand-held transit) and a pace counter. My dad and I would often pace out distances, especially if there were obstructions or tall grass which had to be cleared. Anyway - long story short. The pace counter would be used exactly how you describe. A fellow can get pretty accurate at, say, 13 paces for 100 feet. We'd also "eye" an angle - usually for bets - to see how close we'd get to a correct angle before turning the transit. At age 13 I was pretty dead on. Anyone hear of a "beer leg"?

- Jay Reid
Dreamer42

[tomarch]

I have a 1918 Corps of Engineers field manual that talks about the set you have. You have a way lot more experience in this that I, as I have mainly been doing the research and study and only a few times a year have I been able to take to the field to do mapping. The "road survey crew" seanario works well out here out West as a rational to do small sized unit events. B.T.W there are other " topogs" out there at www.topogs.org

[Dreamer42]

Tom,
Thanks for the web site. Glad to know there are individuals out there keeping this art alive. Hard to imagine that within a matter of two decades that something could nearly be lost. I imagine many similar skills were lost as the CW veterans grew old entering the Industrial Revolution - the number of crafts that were swept aside just due to the automobile comes to mind.
Now, to incorporate surveying skills AND unearthing a CW camp site or fortifications - Wow! that would be a double thrill.
As a comparison - off CW topic, again sorry - today one person can set a tripod with his transmitter and walk the property, hitting each point, all the while his pole has a transmitter of its own sending information back to the tripod UP TO 1 MILE AWAY. And it's all recorded automatically. All he has to do is grab the distances and punch a calculator. Unreal. But then again, he doesn't "experience" the outdoors - good and bad, as much as the fellas did back then.
I'm guessing, Tom, not much changed from CW to 1918, save optics and materials used for some of the equipment. Have fun!

- Jay Reid
Dreamer42