Federal shell jacket...

[WoodenNutmeg]

What would this rate on the old authenticity scale, based on the photos:

http://imagehost.vendio.com/bin/imageserver.x/00000000/moveecrazee/DSC09304.JPG

http://imagehost.vendio.com/bin/imageserver.x/00000000/moveecrazee/DSC09306.JPG

http://imagehost.vendio.com/bin/imageserver.x/00000000/moveecrazee/DSC09307.JPG

http://imagehost.vendio.com/bin/imageserver.x/00000000/moveecrazee/DSC09309.JPG

http://imagehost.vendio.com/bin/imageserver.x/00000000/moveecrazee/DSC09310.JPG

Bryan O'Keefe, Esquire

[Secesh]

It looks more like a CS commutation jacket...Not sure about that lining.....

[WoodenNutmeg]

It is my understanding that it is a Federal state jacket (which state, however, I don't know). It is made from a deep dark blue (darker than the photos) kersey wool with what I am told is a, [...]horse hair type lining." I have no idea what that is/means, but that's all I have to work with at the moment. Therefore, I'm relying on the folks here for distinction.

Bryan O'Keefe, Esquire

[reb290]

It is my understanding that it is a Federal state jacket (which state, however, I don't know).
Bryan O'Keefe, Esquire

I think Fed. state Jackets had epaulettes. Also what type of Buttons are those?

[WoodenNutmeg]

You are correct in your assumption that most Federal state jackets had epaulettes on them, but not all did. Also, in answer to your question, the buttons for this coat are Federal eagle buttons. So, regardless of what I was told, I firmly agree and personally do not believe this is a Federal state jacket by any means (that's why I titled this thread "Federal shell jacket..."). My main inquiry is the authenticity of the jacket as a reproduction 1861 Federal shell jacket. Is the cut correct? Is the threading accurate? Is the lining on this coat plausible? These are the questions for which I desire answers.

Here is an image of a Union quartermaster in his shell jacket:

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb249/digthefuzz/shelljacket1.jpg

Here is an image of a Union infantryman in his shell jacket:

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb249/digthefuzz/shelljacket2.jpg

Here is an image of Blockade Runner's Union shell jacket:

http://www.blockaderunner.com/images/roundabout.jpg

Bryan O'Keefe, Esquire

[toptimlrd]

Aaron, it looks like the buttons are missing to me.

Unless it's the flash, that lining sure looks shiny, was it some sort of polished cotton perhaps?

[WoodenNutmeg]

Yeah, the lining does look shiny alright. I really wish someone could evidence this for me. I'm still very interested as to what, "[...]horse hair type lining," means.

Bryan O'Keefe, Esquire

[toptimlrd]

When I think of horsehair fabrics, I usually think of upholstery fabrics. Anyway I did find this reference from http://www.nsweave.org.au/articles/2007/07/horsehair_fabri.html:

Horsehair Fabric
Horsehair fabrics were initially woven on a cotton, linen or silk warp with a weaver standing at a loom all day and a small child sitting in the loom with the horse tail, passing each hair to the weaver. The Education Act of 1870, ensured that all children went to school, and this led to the development of mechanical looms patented by John Boyd.

A mechanical picker is able to tease one hair from the tail. Two bunches of hair are held at the side of the loom, one sorted so it has the tips towards loom, the other in reverse position. The picker selects one from each bunch alternately; in this way the slight taper in their shape is cancelled out and a straight fell maintained.

Textiles woven with horse hair both as warp and weft are used to make kitchen sieves. And cloth woven with occasional horsehairs is still used as interfacing by tailors.

Since the invention of cars the number of horses in Europe has declined and there isn't sufficient local horsehair. It is now sourced mainly from Asia where they still use working horses with cropped tails. Horsehair sourced from live horses gives the best quality fabric.

Black horsehair is overdyed to give a pure shiny black sheen to the fabrics. Mixed Grey horsehair is a mixture of brown tones and is used undyed to give a wonderful natural strae in the fabric. Both types of horsehair give a fabric width of 65 cms (26").

Natural white horsehair is used undyed to give lovely pale ivory coloured fabrics and is also bleached and dyed giving an exceptional range of colours. These horsehair fabrics are 56 cms wide (22") due to the shorter length of white horsehair.

Horse hair fabrics are still woven by John Boyd Textiles at Castle Carey. Their site shows several designs of their over 150 products. Although the historical fabrics are still woven, contemporary designers also appreciate the unique qualities of horsehair fabrics. Many new designs and colours have been added to their collection in recent years.

References
www.johnboydtextiles.com
www.southpacificfabrics.com

[WoodenNutmeg]

Wow, Robert...very interesting...thanks!

Horse hair fabrics, from what I have just read, would certainly explain the shine.

Maybe this coat is a greater quality reproduction than I had originally credited it as being.

Bryan O'Keefe, Esquire

[toptimlrd]

I'm still not completely convinced it is accurate though. Some provenance on what the jacket was copied from would be helpful. To be honest, I don't recall seeing such a lining on any original I have viewed. Of course these are in museums where the lining is not always visible, but I would reccomend doing some serious research before deciding if it is correct or not. Like I said, horsehair is usually an upholstery fabric which I would think make it quite heavy and stiff.

[WoodenNutmeg]

Definitely...this is still inconclusive as I have not ever viewed such a lining either.

Bryan O'Keefe, Esquire

[Secesh]

Bryan,
Rather than throwing out such a generalized question, why not go to YOUR source and find out who made it, who made the fabric, what original / pattern was it based on, what is the fabric material, does it contain synthetic fabrics, etc. It is impossible to tell you on any scale how authentic something is just by a photo...Best regards.

[WoodenNutmeg]

Tom,

My source obtained the item second hand and has no information other than what I have already shared here on this thread. So, while you can consider the question to be general in nature, I feel that given the circumstances, it is a fair one. I have already received a few e-mails pertaining to my inquiry (most from seamsters and seamstresses), all with positive feedback and credit due entirely to the photos; so I'm content even if I am still curious. With that said, in between my own research and outsourcing, I guess I assumed that for the most part, members here who could help me with my question would do just that. Luckily, most have. Thanks for the input.

Bryan O'Keefe, Esquire

[Shockoe Hill Cats]

My hat's off to you, Mr. ************! You never cease to amaze me with your wonders. :D

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

Thank you Herr Nick for the fine analysis!

IMHO, this jacket appears to be the "Federal Infantry Shell Jacket" sold for years by a prominant so-called Mainstream vendor.
The lining is "brown polished cotton" per their catalog.
The brown stitching harkens back to the Era when it was assumed that Period thread was originally only brown.

IMHO, I am not so sure that the posting and discussion of so-called "Mainstream" or "Sutlers' Row" products fits with the purpose of the Authenticity Discussion folder in an "oxymoron" kind of way. However, Herr Nick's comparison of a reproduction versus original items does.

Curt

[reb290]

Aaron, it looks like the buttons are missing to me.

Unless it's the flash, that lining sure looks shiny, was it some sort of polished cotton perhaps?
In the first photo the Buttons are on the bottom of the Picture not attached.

[thad gallagher]

This shell jacket looks nearly identical to the one I wore in my "mainstream" days during the 125ths. Needless to say, there have been many improvements in the hobby and better research since then.

[ohpkirk]

Well said, Nick.

Too often people ask, "Who makes the best...." instead of "what features should I look for when purchasing.....". While not everyone is a trained tailor, access to originals (be it through the glass at a museum or through digital means) is not out of the reach of any member of this board. It is only by looking at the original that you can ascertain what features you need to be looking for when purchasing your next item. Do your own research and don't depend on what others tell you. It is only through this method (unless evidence can be presented by the individual on the topic at hand) that you can depend on what is correct and what is incorrect. Even the answers on this thread contain what some call "gunshow knowledge" which may contain some pertinent information, but is mainly hear-say and generalization.

[GreencoatCross]

Nick and Cody,

Harumph!

[JacobReichwein]

Blockade runner? lmfao

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

If there is a postive in this thread, it is that the "Who" made a Reproduction Widget is irrevelent to "How" it compares to the Original Widget in four factors on a Sliding Scale:

1. Period raw materials
2. Period patterns, models, and forms
3. Period methods of construction or manufacture
4. What degree of the above three the State of the Hobby accepts as:
a. doable
b. affordable
c. desireable in what part or entirety
d. able to be replicated, or simulated by substitution such as aniline dyestuff for vegetable, etc.

To that end, and where this has started and gone, this thread is closed.

Curt