Cap Pouch authenticity question

[Thumper]

I have a friend who is interested in getting a Painted Cloth Cartridge Box. However, he is most interested in authenticity. The unit we belong too is the 44th GA which was an ANV regiment.

Did painted cloth cartridge boxes have wide spread usage? Would their use be appropriate to a late war ANV unit?

I seem to recall reading somewhere that painted cloth accuterments were more common in the Western theater but I could be mistaken.

Does anyone know of a good source for a painted cloth cartridge box? I have checked with S&S, C. J. Daley and the Jersey Skillet Licker but they do not currently have any.

Thanks,

Tom Glaze/Thumper

[Gallo de Cielo]

Tom,

There are only a few folks that I can think of off the top of my head. One would be Don Smith of the now reduced-in-capacity Trans-Mississippi Depot. He doesn't do much in the way of specialty ordered items so unless he happens to make up a few and sends them up to Family Heirloom Weavers for their storefront, your best bet is probably to scan the "want to sell" folder and leap on any that might pop up there.

Another source is Ethan Rogers. Here is a link to his website:
http://erogers_tarredgoods.tripod.com/erogerstarredgoods/index.html

Butch Meyers may also do painted cloth accoutrements, although the old price list/catalog that I have for him doesn't indicate that. Here is his contact info should you want it:
J. R. Myers Company.
Manufacturer of 19th Century
Martial Accouterments.

6507 Horsepen Road
Richmond, Virginia 23226
804.288.9380

Hope this helps.

Fred Baker

[coastaltrash]

Layton Young made my box and cap box. I can't remember how to directly get in touch with him, but Justin Morris sold his stuff for a while.


Tom,

There are only a few folks that I can think of off the top of my head. One would be Don Smith of the now reduced-in-capacity Trans-Mississippi Depot. He doesn't do much in the way of specialty ordered items so unless he happens to make up a few and sends them up to Family Heirloom Weavers for their storefront, your best bet is probably to scan the "want to sell" folder and leap on any that might pop up there.

Another source is Ethan Rogers. Here is a link to his website:
http://erogers_tarredgoods.tripod.com/erogerstarredgoods/index.html

Butch Meyers may also do painted cloth accoutrements, although the old price list/catalog that I have for him doesn't indicate that. Here is his contact info should you want it:
J. R. Myers Company.
Manufacturer of 19th Century
Martial Accouterments.

6507 Horsepen Road
Richmond, Virginia 23226
804.288.9380

Hope this helps.

Fred Baker

[1842musket]

Tom,
The aforementioned vendors are excellent sources (although I'm not sure if Mr. Myers does painted cloth items; wouldn't hurt to ask) for these type of accoutrements. However to my knowledge painted cloth infantry gear had a somewhat limited use in the ANV versus the AOT.
There is a painted cloth roller buckle waistbelt that has an Eastern provenance as well as the somewhat well known painted linen cartridge box sling with the figure 8 stich in the Fredericksburg/Spotsylvania Military Park collection. With the exception of perhaps a cap pouch I've been told about, these are the only surviving painted cloth accoutrements with provenance to the ANV/Eastern Theatre. There may have been others (including cartridge boxes) but none have survived that are documented to an ANV soldier.
Painted cloth accoutrements were in somewhat common use in the AOT from about mid-War on and are well documented. I would suggest your friend, if he wants to be more specific to the ANV, go with a generic (ie unmarked) set of CS Leather accoutrements. Besides Mr. Myers, he can check out Bob Serio's site, www.missouribootandshoe.com, as he can make these items also.
Hope this helps.
Cheers,
Larry McIrvin

[Reserve]

Actually there are at least two painted cloth cartridge boxes identified with the ANV. One is in the AH Stephens Hist. Site collection and the other I believe is still in a private collection. The one in the AH Stephens collection appears very similar in pattern to those believed to have been issued here in the western theater. The second box is of the much more rare (at least originals are) belt carriage only type painted cloth box. Either type would be obviously be correct for ANV, at least in limited numbers. I have no way of saying exactly how many painted cloth boxes were issued in the east. However, cap boxes, belts, slings etc. are all known to have been used in the east as well you can take from that the serious possibility that sets were issued in the east as well.

[1842musket]

Ethan,
Thanks for sharing that information. I was not aware that these painted cloth cartridge boxes had an ANV provenance. Do you have any further details on them (i.e. approx. dates of use, possible manufacture in an eastern facility, etc.)?
Thanks,
Larry McIrvin

[A7X]

I was wondering if anyone knows where i would be able to get patterns for leather goods of any kinda along with haversacks.


~Knapsacks
~haversacks
~belts,catridge boxes, cap boxes

thanks

~Jonathan Kroppmann

[KathyBradford]

Hi, Jonathan,

A Confederate Sketchbook has several "measured drawings" for articles you mentioned.

Moses Alexander white cotton haversack
Cartridge box sling
Confederate cartridge box
Confederate cap pouch
Leather wallet
plus some clothing and other things.

The U.S. Pattern Book contains clothing drawings and step-by-step measurement and sewing instructions.

The Columbia Rifles Research Compendium second edition is due out this year, and the first edition is still available.

I would be very interested in the opinions of others who know more about the authenticity of the patterns in the first two books mentioned.

Good luck!

P.S. I sent you a check for the Daley Jacket. Thank you.

[JACKSONVC]

I don't normally look over in ebay for items, however this one appeared. Pretty interesting Confederate cap box out of St Louis, Mo.

http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2229973736&category=13960

[JACKSONVC]

I should have added this to the orginal tread, I was under the Impression that Sickles made equipment for the union army. The question is, did Sickles in St. Louis make equipment on the side for the Confederacy? Or are we looking at a piece of equipment that was captured and sent to a depot where it was remarked as CS property? This is the only example I have ever seen that was made in the North and has a Southern stamp on it. As usual, I am leary of anything listed on Ebay.

[Holy Joe]

This one's been bothering me since it was first posted here....I think you have good reason to be leary of this "artifact". Looks to me like a fake, or possibly an original with a post-war 'fantasy' stamping.



From Oldguns.net;

http://oldguns.net/cgi-bin/f2f/f2f.pl?http://www.oldguns.net/catmilpreww2.htm

"8318 REPRODUCTION CIVIL WAR CARTRIDGE BOX- BROWN - Brown leather with CS embossed on the flap. Medium quality workmanship, probably typical of a lot of Confederate stuff. This has been used by a reenactor a bit, so it is scuffed and show a little use, not quite as obvious as a brand new repro. Fine for display or for collector on a budget who cannot yet afford one of the megabucks originals. $39.00"

here's a photo for ya

http://www.oldguns.net/8318.jpg

A word about J.B. Sickles & Co.;

"Had army contracts on Aug. 30, 1862 for 10,000 sets each of .58 cal. & .69 cal. accouterments & on Oct. 21, 1862 for 2,000 carbine boxes & 2,000 Remington pistol holsters. Had a contract on Dec. 3, 1862 for 2,000 Remington holsters. On Mar. 3, 1863, had two contracts for a total of 20,000 sets of .58 cal. infantry accouterments...." American Military Goods Dealers and Makers1875-1915

Is it just me, or this box constructed of hemlock tanned goods? IIRC, hemlock was to be rejected by US inspectors prior to December of 1863 (well after the original Sickles contracts). Perhaps this was overlooked, although several documented cases of "mixed-tanned leather" were rejected in late 1863. (See Johnson, Paul D. Civil War Cartridge Boxes of the Union Infantryman) Or could this have been standard oak-tanned leather with a 'chemical' strip applied for that hardkewl 'russet' look? I've never seen oak-tanned 'fade' to this extent (thus the possible hemlock explanation)...but I'm still fairly green when it comes to leatherworking....

I could be dead-wrong on this, but the combination of 'inferior' material, combined with a reversed belt loop should surely have called for this box to be rejected. (Also note the positioning of the rivet heads, indicating that the belt loops were riveted on before the box was sewn together)....but who knows....I just don't have a good 'gut' feeling on this one....I'd pass!

for comparison's sake, here's a 'real' J.B. Sickles cap box

http://www.sharpsburg-arsenal.com/Leather_Goods/Cap_Box_Sickles_and_Co_/cap_box_sickles_and_co_.html

[hireddutchcutthroat]

This item is truely sad. It appears that somebody took an original US box and put that silly CS emboss on it. Talking about robbing Peter to pay Paul.

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Gary

It also looks like the "Old guns" site is parting out a 12th Corps clothing book. SAD!

[JACKSONVC]

Thanks for the info. I did some looking around the web today, and yes, this item certianly looks less than authentic. Captured leathers were not restamped with any markings, unlike what happens today. I guess this is a good lesson in buyer beware. Again, thanks for the insight.

[Holy Joe]

Gary

It also looks like the "Old guns" site is parting out a 12th Corps clothing book. SAD!

http://oldguns.net/5670.jpg

absolutely sickening!

[hireddutchcutthroat]

http://oldguns.net/5670.jpg

absolutely sickening!


It is sad to think of all the reseach that has been destroyed by people looking for a buck like this.

[Djarnagin]

The cap pouch is a hemlock tanned piece. It is also a real Sickles made piece. The stamp is more than likely applied after the war. There is some grain tubing around the edges of the CS stamp but not inside the stamp, which show that the cap pouch was used prior to stamping. There is several strange spots in the stamp itself and it looks like this may have been the second try to stamp it.

The backstrap being different on the cap pouch does not bother me at all; this is a common thing for Sickles. I own an original cap pouch where both backstraps are made from waxed leather. These just shows he used up his scrap leather. During the Civil War a contractor ordered his leather in from the tannery already dyed and finished. Since at the time this cap pouch was made more than likely the belts and cartridge box belts were contracted in waxed leather.

You do not have all the contracts listed that Sickles had. I know of a later contract and there also must have been an earlier one as well. I own an original cap pouch that was made for the rifleman’s belt. This cap pouch has the long loop and no rivets at all, and is the only one known to exist so far. This would have been copied from the pre war items that went through St Louis prior to the war.

This is only the second item made by Sickles that was made out of hemlock tanned leather. Most of all the western accouterments that I have seen have been made from oak tanned leather. This would be what I expected since there is no hemlock tanning listed west of Pennsylvania.

I have seen one oak piece that was stripped of the black color. This is not an easy process. It can be done by oxalic acid. This is still done today by tanneries to remove iron stains, but there is no evidence that this acid was known about at the time of the Civil War. I have not found a single listing for the oxalic acid.

Inspectors knowing what hemlock tanned leather looked like is very unlikely. This is due in large part to the secretive nature of the tanners. The ordnance officers would have to have gotten their information from the tanners and this was not information that would have been shared. The 19th century way of selling leather is different than today, tanners bought and sold raw and finished goods through brokers. This is the reason tannery stamps are found on certain leather items. Every tannery would have marked there leather with this stamp so the reputation of the tannery would not have been soiled by unscrupulous tanners or brokers that sold inferior leather at higher prices as being from a reputable tannery.

For more information on hemlock tanned leather look for my up coming article on the subject. In this article I tell how the fading process happens and that it was a well known problem. I also list the ways tanners cheated to get around this fading process.

[Holy Joe]

The cap pouch is a hemlock tanned piece. It is also a real Sickles made piece.

The backstrap being different on the cap pouch does not bother me at all; this is a common thing for Sickles. I own an original cap pouch where both backstraps are made from waxed leather. These just shows he used up his scrap leather.

This is only the second item made by Sickles that was made out of hemlock tanned leather.

Mr. Jarnagin,

Excellent points. Thanks for the clarification! It's sad that someone has 'mucked up' what would have been (and in some ways still is) a beautiful piece. I do have some questions about the later sickles contracts, and would like to contact you offline if that's possible.

Thanks,

[Djarnagin]

Gary,

That would be fine. If you want to see my display of St. Louis leather I would suggest that you come to the Company of Military Historians annual meeting in May. I also will have a display about leather preservation at the same show.

[bluebellybugleboy]

hey guys :
i have a question on cap pouches:

what type of fur goes in it and how is it attatched? mine came with fake fur inside of it , like the stuff you can buy at wal-mart, I pulled it off and it was superglued on the inside.

also i heard that most cap pouches hada a small hole for a nipple pick is this true?

I'll be having more questions later . thanks.

Hallo Herr Rob! Thank you for your posts on the AC Forum. I am going to suggest that you take a moment or two and step back to evaluate your current level of interest and application. Some of the purposes of the AC Forum are to promote and foster serious, researched, and documentable discussion of Civil War soldier impressions, and serve as a research referral source/resource for members on uniform, equipment, and reference/resource questions. Since you are new to this Forum, I recommend that you read posts for a while to get an idea of the types of questions asked; the style of writing used; how discussion, research and information referral works here for those committed to pursuing so-called Authentic Campaigning and more factual, historical-based impressions and activities.

There are other CW fora where those with different Mental Pictures and applications often find formats and other people more closely aligned with their own interests and levels that are different from the AC Forum's goals and operation. Your "Cap Pouch" posting appears to read as either Flame Bait or the posting of a rather new person perhaps or even likely, not yet or quite at, ready to post and discuss on this Forum in terms of their own Mental Picture.

I am giving you the benefit of the doubt here, this time, and assume you are not a Troll or Flame Baiter. But I also tend to think you may not quite understand the purpose and workings of the AC Forum, and/or have not progressed far enough on your own personal Journey to be ready to post and share here.
You may want to read here on the AC Forums, and post really basic, "newcomer" type questions on those fora better suited, and known for,
basic level interests and applications.

Feel welcome here to learn, grow, and progress- just be sure you are ready and have a grasp of how things "work" on the AC Forum, information, and discussions. (Hint, posting a question based that you had "heard something" is not. Neither are references to Wal Mart.)

Also, the AC Forum is place for serious, documentable, and as far as possible, academic-based postings and discussions. "IM Style" of error-filled writing- with poor syntax, spacing, capitalization, and spelling, etc., DETRACTS from that.
Curt-Heinrich Schmidt, Moderator

[RyanBWeddle]

hey guys :
i have a question on cap pouches:

what type of fur goes in it and how is it attatched? mine came with fake fur inside of it , like the stuff you can buy at wal-mart, I pulled it off and it was superglued on the inside.

also i heard that most cap pouches hada a small hole for a nipple pick is this true?

I'll be having more questions later . thanks.


Nothing from Walmart ever was used in original Civil War accoutrements...
NOTHING. People need to stop mentioning Walmart here!!! :angry_smi :angry_smi :angry_smi :angry_smi
QUIT MENTIONING WALMART! :angry_smi

For your questions why don't you do some research? Do a 'Google' search...
I'm sure you can find some info if you do some research for yourself.

This shouldn't be the place to start your research... Read some books, articles, etc. Then ask...


From the 1850 Ordnance Manual:

CAP POUCH: (black bridle leather,) length and depth 3 inches; width 11.25
inch-inner cover, with end pieces-flap, made of the same piece as the back,
with a button hole strap at the bottom-brass button, riveted under the bottom of the pouch-2 loops, sewed to the back, 2. 5 inches long, to admit a waist belt, of 2 inches-lining: a strip of sheepskin, with the wool on, 1.5 inch wide, glued with fish glue, and sewed to the back, at the mouth of the pouch.

[Charles Heath]

Here are two excellent books you and your chums will no doubt greatly appreciate over time:

The Columbia Rifles Research Compendium, and the article by John Tobey starting on page II.18 answers your questions and more. This is just one article of many chock full of useful and easy to implement information aimed at fine tuning the impression.

Civil War Cartridge Boxes of the Union Infantryman by Paul D. Johnson will also add to your knowledge of CW era accoutrements.

Similar articles and books are available for scabbards, shelter halves, canteens, and other issue items.

Charles Heath

[HOG.EYE.MAN]

Rob,

I'm just curious, who made your cap pouch?

Ryan,

You are correct..... Some people in this forum need to stop mentioning stores like Walmart, JoAnn fabrics, K-mart, etc. etc... These places should never be considered for anything.

[SCSecesh]

You are correct..... JoAnn fabrics, . . . etc. etc... These places should never be considered for anything.

Interesting broad statement! I have found a 100% cotton drill at Joann's that more closely replicates some period drill than anything I've seen to date from the hobby side of fabric production! The Irish linen for shirting I stumbled into was very good as well if you were willing to drop the $$ on it. Both fabrics compare favorably to period pieces. While finding two pieces in a store full of cloth is not a "bonanza", it certainly was a find!

[bluebellybugleboy]

Rob,

I'm just curious, who made your cap pouch?

Ryan,

You are correct..... Some people in this forum need to stop mentioning stores like Walmart, JoAnn fabrics, K-mart, etc. etc... These places should never be considered for anything.

pard:
to be honest it was bought as a christmas present last year by my uncle, and if your wondering .Also in our area JoAnn fabric stocks many period fabrics, including linen, calico, and a for a small time there linsey woolsey .

respectfully yours,
Robert Young

[CaptainUCSB]

Curt,
Dont you think you jumped down his throat a bit quicky? True his question may not have been the most educated question posted on this forum, but for somebody trying to make his first jumps to authenticity it was a perfectly good question.

Something that often gets in the way of mainstreamers/farbs moving in the realm of authenticity is the attitude of authentics/hardcores. The attitudes of the hardcores in my area delayed my authenticity for at least a year. I knew they looked good and I wanted to be a part of that, but they were jerks to me whenever I asked even the easiest questions or even when I walked by.

Thanks to Don Smith for being the one in the group to actually take an interest in me, rather than putting his nose up in the air like everybody else in that group did. If he hadn't, I'd still be running the fields yelling "yee-haw" with my farby crap on! (OK, I never yelled "Yee-haw")

As for the generalized statement against modern stores, I dont have much to say. Just realize that it was a very GENERALIZED statement.

[dusty27]

Patrick ed al,

Curt doesn't need defending here. GENERALLY speaking, modern retail operations are not the first, second or third source for material for the more authentic side of the hobby. On a website that tries to cater to this side of the hobby, mentioning this type of source is going to be looked down upon.

Another point I'd like to make here, again, is that many of the questions here asked by the "new" guys can be answered using other sources on the net, asking pards within the unit, or using the search feature on this or other fora.

I would like to reiterate what Curt has said, new guys should be doing a lot more reading here and research in their libraries.

[sivart]

“New guys” So what when are you not considered a new guy? Is there a test? I think everybody is a new guy to something, as we all don’t know everything about this hobby, or everything about anything

"New guys" is defined by the join date and number of posts made on this forum. New guy is in reference to this forum, not to reenacting.

I have to agree with Patrick. We authentic minded reenactors need to be nicer and more understanding to out brethren who have not seen the light. Telling them not to ask questions that you deem inappropriate will not help us in any way. In fact that is a way to deter people from asking questions, and if you cant ask how will you learn?

I'm not saying to not ask questions. What I am saying is do some research into your question elsewhere and if you still have questions, come on here with some knowledge of your subject matter, not "what kind of fur is in cap boxes?"

As a test, when I saw the original post, I put "Civil War cap boxes" into a Google search and found out in seconds that original cap boxes had/have wool inside, not "fur".

The poster could have done the same thing.....

Sure he could have done more research, and I am not saying he still shouldn’t but c’mon, do we really have to complain about it, wouldn’t it be easier to just to answer his question? Maybe he doesn’t have access to everything that is needed to do research. Because if he is a “new guy” chances are he won’t have the reading material available to him that some of us have amassed. And you can’t find everything on the Internet. (Well not yet) :wink_smil

As many have said here before, he could go to the library to get research material. And you can find quite a bit on the internet if you take the time.

I’m sure that when you started reenacting, you just didn’t all of a sudden know everything, I can guarantee it. And you probably don’t know everything now.

I don't presume to know anything, then or now. I do know how to do research, however, which I enjoy and I like to pass on things that I have learned.

This forum is as much here for experienced and “newer” authentic reenactors alike. So lets just all try and get along, and not rip peoples heads off if they make a comment that you deem inappropriate.

Anyone can use the forum. I just wish they would read more and learn before asking some questions. The "ripping peoples' heads off" comes from the frustration of explaining this concept so many times.

Dusty

[CaptainUCSB]

I will only respond to one thing you said: he can ask a pard in his unit?

First of all, can we please stop using the term pard? It sounds ridiculous and isnt authentic at all.

Second, if he is a member of a farby unit in Canada, do you really think his "pards" will be able or willing to answer any of his authenticity questions?

[SCSecesh]

JoAnn fabric stocks many period fabrics, including linen, calico, and a for a small time there linsey woolsey .

respectfully yours,
Robert Young

I've never seen their Linsey woolsey, the calico is not very good and doesn't look like anything I've seen from the period. There are a few small quilting shops around that often carry printed fabric patterns that can be traced back to the period mills, but you have to look. Even some Smithsonian patterns around. Be careful with the linen as well, much it has rayon or some other synthetic in the make make-up and/or if very loosely woven, with a number of the slubs far beyond what I've seen to date. If the linen isn't about $12-$14/yard, I'd be somewhat suspect!

[JimKindred]

Dusty,

You echo my thoughts exactly. I don't mind people asking questions and helping them AFTER they have tried to find the answer themselves first. Too many people on these forums do not make even the slightest effort to find the answer before popping the question on to this forum or any of the others.

As was said a short Google search will turn up the answer to many of the questions asked on these forums. The fellow who started this thread is obviously very new to the hobby and understandably has questions most of which will be old hat to most of us. I wonder if it might help if we added a links page to research sites that would go along with the FAQ section.

[SCTiger]

Alright let's return to the original question and give the man an example of a good COI type questions:

What common materials were used in Confederate cap pouch construction?

Does anyone have an article on how I could make my own cap pouch?

Could I find any of the authentic materials at Wal-mart, JoAnn's Fabrics, hobby shops, etc., or would I need to pursue a more specific vendor source?

My question:
Wouldn't it be less frustrating and more economical to buy a common cap box from a reputable vendor versus making it yourself? See time, effort, expenses, gasoline, materials etc.

I also doubt that most soldiers of the ACW/WBTS era ever called each other "pards" that often. The JW reenactors do that. JW= Johnny Walker, John Wayne and Josey Wales.

We can rework the inquiry. Please maintain the standards.

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Rob

I would throw that cap pouch as far as you can throw it, and pick one up from an approved vendor from this forum. There are some good vendors out there that will not put you in the poor house.

Dont be afraid to ask questions, but plan your questions abit so things like this thread do not happen. And dont be a stranger to the search engine.

[Agate]

I would point out that it is opinion, and nothing more, concerning materials available at retail chain stores in regard to authenticity. Comments such as "closer than I've ever seen" really mean nothing. So what? Sounds like people are somewhat on the defensive concerning their personal choices.

If it is closer, show something other than opinion, so the rest of us have a little more to go on. We do have standards that we hope to maintain do we not? As the accepted standard, if you will, is open to question and now challenged by you, it is up to you to not make generalized statements concerning what is, and what is not correct. Can we be faulted if we are suspect?

I (as many) have an open mind, provide us something of real use. Maybe I too will go check out the local fabric shop depending on what you show. Until then, I cannot accept that reproduction material somewhat falls short based only on your opinion.

Regards,

John Sarver
Cincinnati

[HOG.EYE.MAN]

Mr. David Chinnis,

Have fun buying your materials from JoAnn fabrics!!!

I would rather give my business to "approved vendors" who depend on people like me and other authentics to make a living.

Plus, I don't think it's a good idea mentioning places like JoAnn Fabrics when we have a bunch of new comers searching this forum for help everyday. (Not saying you do).




Proud owner of a hemp haversack,

[Agate]

Aaron,

Mr. Chinnis, in my opinion, made real sense in the haversack debate, and I encourage you to have Joe replace that haversack with cotton. Once that thread started, and the question of Federal haversacks, and observations of originals thereof, was brought up, I disagreed. I brought to the discussion documentation of the use by the principle depots of "linen" in the construction of late war haversacks by the USQMD. This being realistically the only period we have any real information on.

The argument stood.

In this post you have expressed a belief commonly held by the authentic community (at least our authentic community). I say that because we are not all from the same community, at least IMHO. You, being one of the few who will express yourself and the beliefs upheld by some, and you BTW, should be congratulated for it.

Allow him, and the others who have expressed themselves regarding this, the opportunity to respond. We may find out that there is something to it, and again, we may not. We need something outside of opinion, sometimes even learned ones. That is part of getting folks on the right track to research and proper documentation, we must show how it is properly done.

Your Comrade,

John

John Sarver

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo Kameraden!

"Curt,
Dont you think you jumped down his throat a bit quicky? True his question may not have been the most educated question posted on this forum, but for somebody trying to make his first jumps to authenticity it was a perfectly good question."

Since it was asked, I will answer…

No, I don't. Anyone- when it comes to me, please don't confuse style with intent.

And yes, it was a perfectly good question- not for here, but for other fora.

Rather than just "delete" it, I thought an explanation of the rules and policies, and why it was not was in order.

I was under the belief that I was being "firmly professorial and mentoring," as well as discharging my duties as a Moderator.

Lads, I have read, reread, and reread my Mod posting three times.

Granted, in any commuication there is always the Rule of Three:

1. What I thought I said.
2. What others thought I said.
3. What I actually said.

On the two previous versions of this Forum over the past four years or so, I have posted and answered well over 2,000 times. On other fora, I have posted over far more than 4,000 times.
I take criticism for being too free in readily sharing my knowledge and experience, (such that it is) as it can be seen as discouraging the very research and research methodologies we try to encourage and support when "too quick, too easy, Shake and Bake" answers are provided instead of guiding and directing research "how to 's.
(Give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. Teach him how to fish...)

Anyone- again, please do not confuse style with intent.
And anyone, please do not read between my lines looking and finding things I did not put there.

If my intent was to jump down his throat, I would have done so with both feet so as to leave no doubt for the poster and a warning to other thread viewers- using awesome and disproportionate Mod powers and provisions of the "No Farbism" Rule to have these kinds of postings delegated and relegated to the fora where they are appropriate and commonly shared, and punish the offender by a Warning and a 30 Day reduction in forum privileges to "Read Only" status. ;-)
Instead, I hope to set his feet on a better path, and one envisioned and supported by this Forum (if that is what he ultimately is after as I know him not, nor how old he is, his educational background, his interests, and his personal Mental Picture.

As a former professor at the 3rd ranked college of its kind in the country, I
hold certain expectations of the students in the class.
I have absolutely nothing against elementary school and junior high kids as they are just starting on their Journey.
However, if they want to take college, graduate, and post grad/doctorate classes, I do hold them to a higher standard than grammar school- evil, wicked beastie that I be.
They may just not be ready for higher level work yet.

While not everyone here and on other fora agree, there ARE various "schools" at work here on the WWW.
Some take their "enrollment and participation" as serious and want to learn and do better.
Some find fora as their personal and/or political playgrounds and soap boxes.
Some find the various fora a form of personal entertainment, and like to see their names and words "up in lights" and little more.

There is room for any and all interests and applications, even when it comes to the Glowing Screen. But at the same time, if there is a "time to every purpose under Heaven" there is also a "Cyberland place for it."

The highly paid, highly rewarded, and highly esteemed AC Forum Mods are charged with, and expected to, maintain not only the Forum rules and policies but further the vision, goals, and objectives of the AC Forum.

Of course, not everyone sees things the same, and...

Others' mileage will differ.

Your Obet Servt, I remain, Sirs:

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt

[billwatson]

I read the original post somewhat differently: The reference to Wal-Mart and super glue being intended as references for OUR benefit, to understand the poster's concern over quality. He suspected the provenance.

[Michael McComas]

As was said a short Google search will turn up the answer to many of the questions asked on these forums.

Jim,

Google can also turn up a lot of garbage on mainstream sites. Google ranks the hits by the relevance to your original request and how many people have chosen which links from similar requests in the past. It doesn't evaluate how correct the info is. If you don't have enough basic knowledge to know what you're looking at, you could be misled.

Also, a fresh fish may not know where to begin when he looks at an artifact. This exchange happened a lot when I joined my unit:

Me: What do you think of my new widget? Is it right?
Them: It's wrong.
Me: What's wrong about it?
Them: It's just wrong.
Me: But you said to get such-and-such, I got it, how is it wrong?
Them: Go look at a book, you'll figure it out.

Not very productive. I looked at the books, but not knowing what details to look for, it didn't do a lot of good. Eventually, I cornered one of the experts and demanded that he explain to me how to evaluate an original artifact. Then the the light switched on. And after reading a few of John Stillwagon's postings evaluating reproductions, the heavens opened, angels sang, and I got it. Maybe we should have a FAQ called "What am I looking at: critically evaluating original artifacts and reproductions." Teaching someone how to look is more important than just telling them where to look.

I'd think if there were a place to ask a tyro question, it would be in the COI forum. Being short with people who want to learn just drives them into the arms of the mainstream. Taking 'the red pen' to someone's post could be embarrassing for them, too. Just my opinion, but if the only safe place to ask a stupid question is on Szabo's forum, that's where they'll go, and they may not come back.

-Michael McComas

PS -- Bill, I got the same thing out of the original post that you did, that he knew the fake fur was wrong but didn't know what was right.

[JimKindred]

Michael,

The Google reference I made was referencing a comment made earlier by one of the moderators. :)

I very strongly agree that there should be a FAQ section on how to research and Curt has provided some extremely good information in his most recent posts dealing with research techniques.

All I ask is that posters at least try to find some of the answers for themselves, be it online or in a book. Most won't make the small effort to open a book even when you give them the title, page number and paragraph.

Finding the right answer to most questions dealing with the basic subject matter isn't that hard if they would at least just try. I learned what I know before the internet came about, I used the old fashion method of looking in museums and reading. For some reason people don't like that method anymore.

[Jersey Devil]

Dusty,


Please don't forget to sign your edits of signed posts with your full name.

Thank you.

[bluebellybugleboy]

I read the original post somewhat differently: The reference to Wal-Mart and super glue being intended as references for OUR benefit, to understand the poster's concern over quality. He suspected the provenance.

YES THANK YOU !! SOMEONE UNDERSTANDS ME !!!(I'm so happy :cry_smile )

you guys are blowing this way out of proportion . I asked this question as a quicky answer , if you know what I mean. I asked this because i wanted to alter my pouch to become more authentic and not have artificail fur in it , and also have a place that I can put a nipple pick . I know have realized the error of my ways . I thought this forum was a place to ask, well "quicky questions".

david;
I've never used the calico, but the linsey woolsey in our area is very nice , and i am very picky in choseing linen, I only chose the stuff thatis the very best .

hireddutchcutthroat:
actually i'll leave it in some camp where some self-respecting spectator will pick it up , lol ( actually I'll bgive it to a friend ).

i hope you all have a good night , becaus ei've typed an aweful lot and i have to get up and go to school tommarrow .

Respectfully your
Rob young

[hireddutchcutthroat]

YES THANK YOU !! SOMEONE UNDERSTANDS ME !!!(I'm so happy :cry_smile )


hireddutchcutthroat:
actually i'll leave it in some camp where some self-respecting spectator will pick it up , lol ( actually I'll bgive it to a friend ).




By friend I hope you mean you are going to give to your dog as a chew toy. :wink_smil

[Michael McComas]

By friend I hope you mean you are going to give to your dog as a chew toy. :wink_smil

I think chrome-tanned leather is toxic to dogs. :eek:

[SCTiger]

Rob,

In this field of study there are really no "quicky" answers. Everything here is fair game for lengthy debate and discussion. As you have no doubt found out. :D

Greg Deese
My German-Shepard puppy once shredded my expensive gortex police boots to a pulp.

[flattop32355]

The "ripping peoples' heads off" comes from the frustration of explaining this concept so many times.
Dusty

That is the occupational hazard you accept as being a teacher, whether as a paid professional or as a dedicated reenactor or in any other fashion. Remember back to your own education: Which teachers meant the most to you; the ones who told you that you should already know the answer because it's written in the book or was covered in the lecture, or the one who went over it again to make sure you understood the answer, and maybe even showed you how to find the answers better yourself next time?

I just got done dealing with this exact type of problem with a fellow reenactor. He is reasonably grateful for the simple help provided, which cost me a total of about 3 minutes of my time (A damn good investment I would say, too. :wink_smil ). And I'm just a lowly mainstreamer with a brain!

[Clark Badgett]

Rob, to answer your question. Judging from the many I've looked at, the fur on the interior of the pouch should be shearling, or as some may call it lambs wool, sewn into the inside, not glued. The nipple pick was meant to be kept in a small leather loop sewn in the left side seem. And while I'm at it most of them were patented leather, and I'm sure many will disparage that info. Email me directly and I can give you more details from the original sheild front pouch I own.

[kemper_rifles]

Dusty,


Please don't forget to sign your edits of signed posts with your full name.

Thank you.

Yep, some people's kids.

[huntdaw]

I have been trying with little success to find information on the prevalence of non-black Confederate cartridge boxes. I mean either oiled leather only or brown dyed etc. I do not have access to the books about this sort of thing I see referenced on this forum.

If they were common - or at least not unusual - what theater were they to be found in the most. I have in mind the Houston depot box which could have been an undyed or oiled leather, but were there others?

If anyone has some info on it I would appreciate it.

[Yellowhammer]

Identifying Confederate accoutrements by color is somewhat problematic. First, there were no regulation patterns as we understand them with regards to the US arsenal system. While there were specifications as to size and features (materials to be used, dimensions, capacity, etc...) a great variety of accoutrements were accepted into service using different materials, designs, methods of carriage etc... While black seems to have been preferred, oiled or undyed accoutrements do not appear to have been uncommon.

That said, identifying accoutrements by color can be problematic as weak dyestuffs could have turned a box that was originally black to a brown or reddish-brown. Conversely, a box that was originally oiled and appearing brown when issued could have been extensively oiled and treated over the years and might now appear almost black. Much like uniforms, judging what color an item was then, in the era of natural dyes, can be problematic.

To make matters even more complicated, there are extant originals from the same makers (most CS accoutrements weren't marked and can't be identified to a maker) in both black and oiled. McKensie of Charleston, SC; the Houston Arsenal; and MacGee and George all appear to have made accoutrements in both blackened and oiled leather.

All that said my friend, I don't think your question can be answered. In fact, I don't think you could have answered your questions in 1865! Confederate accoutrements were definitely manufactured using a wide variety of materials, patterns, and construction techniques. To be "right" for your impression, your best bet (unless you are doing a specific impression) is to get a generic set of CS accoutrements. A .58 box of a standard pattern and having no maker's marks with sling and/or belt loops, a full-front (AKA "shield-front") or CS copy of US 1850 cap box, and a documented CS pattern scabbard is pretty much good for most theaters and most impressions. From there, you can pick up extra pieces to fine tune for your impression.

[markj]

Hi,

One REALLY long-shot possibility might be to check through the surviving Confederate regimental order/clothing book collections (Record Group 94) and Compiled Service Records (M268), at the National Archives, for the units that may be of most interest to you.

Just last week, I looked at all the surviving books for Brown's Brigade (23rd TN BN, 18th, 26th, 32nd, & 45th TN) and did occasionally find references to the color of specific items issued. Alas, I saw nothing regarding accoutrements (unless it dealt with caliber of ammunition carried) but I did note issues of "Read [sic: red?] shoes," "white wool hats," "grey caps," as well as descriptions of the fabric from which many items were made (e.g., "woolen pants," "jean jackets," "cotton shirts," "lincey" [sic: linsey-woolsey?] shirts," "flannel" & "woolen shirts," &c., &c.). You may get lucky and find that a harried company or regimental clerk actually took the time to go above and beyond merely jotting down "cartridge box," "waist belt," "cap pouch," etc.

Another long-shot might be looking in places like the NARA microfilmed Confederate "Citizens and Business Directory" since these show documents from various military contractors, including those who made accoutrements. In one case, I found a signed 1863 contract between an individual and the Trans-Mississippi Clothing Bureau providing fairly detailed descriptions of clothing and equipage that were to be delivered. I'll be writing about this in a future article of the "Watchdog."

Good luck!

Mark Jaeger

[Djarnagin]

Confederates got leather from three sources,

1st being bought from New York, Penn, or Mass., bought through brokers. All this leather was purchased prior to the outbreak of the war or smuggled through. This is told by the amount of hemlock tanned leather in CS manufactured accouterments.

2nd Leather purchased from England. There are records of the amount and type brought over from England.

3rd type and by far the smallest amount are going to be CS tanned leather. The major problems that hurt tanning in the south will be skilled labor and raw hide in quantity.

In order to get a good guess of what was black and russet, you will first need to rule out the hemlock tanned pieces. Confederate EOG is great place to see hemlock faded CS leather. There is a way of telling the faded hemlock piece from the ones that were never dyed, but at this time there is only a hand full of people that can even spot the differences. I have an article on hemlock tanned leather that should be published in the next year in the CMH Journal. This article will tell the how and why hemlock fades.

There are examples of both russet and black accouterments made with English leather. I have viewed two cap pouches made by the same maker and one was black and the other was russet. This means that they imported both russet and black leather from England. The russet color from England was called the London Color, which was a dark brown in color. This color is confused quite often with faded hemlock.

The total overall amount of CS tanned leather will never be known. There is ways of telling that it was still being tanned into late 1864 by the chemicals being imported from England, but at the same time the amount of leather imported is steadily increasing as well. I have found that a large amount of leather was purchased out North Alabama. The amount is in the 5,000 sides range in 1862 and was sent to Richmond. I am still researching this and somewhere in the future I may have better answers. The one that is puzzling me why did the Confederates import White buff leather in 1863, if any one has an answer please let me know?

One last point here is it would not have been oiled leather, but stained or russet leather. Oiled leather is called “common russet” and this is an oil tanned leather used where it needed to be waterproof.

I would make a Huston depot box in the London color, or black due to the fact it more than likely made from English imported leather.

David Jarnagin

[paper cartridge]

Can someone please help me find a company or manufacturer who makes the correct size and shape turned brass cartridge box and cap pouch finials?
Thank you...Ross Nelson

[Cary Davisson]

Can someone please help me find a company or manufacturer who makes the correct size and shape turned brass cartridge box and cap pouch finials?
Thank you...Ross Nelson

Hello,
Ray Darida at Naugatuck Novelty Co. in Conn. Good luck with those cartridge boxes!
Regards,
Cary Davisson

[VMI88]

Can someone please help me find a company or manufacturer who makes the correct size and shape turned brass cartridge box and cap pouch finials?
Thank you...Ross Nelson
If you're looking for them in wholesale quantity, try Jim Kindred at Miltary Warehouse (www.milwarehouse.com). Even if you just need a few I'm sure Jim can tell you who carries his products.

[JimConley]

Based on Cary's work with leather accoutrements, I'd follow his advice. Excellent quality Cary.

[tmdreb]

I agree with the praise on Cary's work. I don't own any yet, but I've seen a bunch, and it's art! Cary, I've been meaning to give you a call, and I'll do so as soon as I find your number! I've switched computers, and I'll try to find it on the old one soon.

[Canton Zouave]

Cary,


You never Call, you never Write. So...I will post here. Send me the wood finial if you still need them reproduced.

Also, I will agree...Cary has some good leathers, and his materials are top notch.

To that, I have also been very satisfied with Jim's offering from Military Warehouse, and his service.

I dont think you can go wrong with either choice.

[Jimmayo]

I am sure you are aware that there are two basic shapes of US CW era Cartridge box finials and several varients of cap box finials. May want to provide a sample of the one you want made whenever you determine a source. Many finials on reproduction boxes don't match any of the ones I have seen. I believe Johnsons book explains who made the round finial and the acorn type. May be worth a look. Have enclosed a pic of some finials. If you need a specific picture or a better qualitity one let me know. I took this one in a hurry because I have to go cut my grass.

[hireddutchcutthroat]

I am sure you are aware that there are two basic shapes of US CW era Cartridge box finials and several varients of cap box finials. May want to provide a sample of the one you want made whenever you determine a source. Many finials on reproduction boxes don't match any of the ones I have seen. I believe Johnsons book explains who made the round finial and the acorn type. May be worth a look. Have enclosed a pic of some finials. If you need a specific picture or a better qualitity one let me know. I took this one in a hurry because I have to go cut my grass.

Jim

Could you send me some more photos of different styles of finials? Those would be easy as falling off a log to make.

[Jimmayo]

Here is a P-1861 box with a nice round finial. It is rounder than it appears in the picture. Sort of like Charlie Brown's head in "Peanuts".This is the Godfrey box that is pictured on my web page. Sent you an e-mail with another.

[coffee boiler]

Here's a pic of a finial from an early war M-1857 cartridge box. You can see from the groves that these were made by a lathe. Initially the finials were made with a round head. Later in the war they whiched to making them with a pointed head. Presumably this change was made because it was easier to close and put less stress on the leather tab.

[Jimmayo]

Here is a pic of the Pattern of March, 1864 box. The finial shape has been changed to resemble an acorn. The owners name, Hugh Capner of the 23 NJ, is written on the back of the shoulder strap.

This type finial also shows up on a pattern of July, 1864 box in my collection. That box has the embossed US on the flap.

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Presumably this change was made because it was easier to close and put less stress on the leather tab.

And radius turning tools can be a S.O.B. to grind. :wink_smil

[Moonshine]

Speaking of finials, does anyone have a source for the finial seen on the Confed box in EoG? You know, the one with the "WFAD" in the flap? It appears to be some sort of post with flat head. I thought I saw this same type used on one of the box knapsacks on later pages. I wonder if this was a common pattern to use? Or if it came from a particular arsenal.

Jim Ross

[Cary Davisson]

Hello Mr. Ross,
The type of stud you are referring to is a canvas awning nail button. This information was past along to me while doing research by Butch Myers.
Just shows how vast the diffirent types of hardware that was used in the south. Hope this helps.

To the people that gave me praise earlier in this posting about my leathers: Thank you very much for all your support and look forward in talking to you soon.

Regards,
Cary A. Davisson

[3alabama]

Mr. Davisson the canvas awning nail stud you refer to is that the one on the bottom of the Pace pack in EOG? If so would you know where to purchasse such an item. I have been looking for about a year with no luck. I own a pack very similer to the Pace pack and have wanted to reproduce it but have been unable to find that peticuliar piece of hardware.

[Cary Davisson]

Hello Mr. Greenfeild,
Yes, that is the same canvas awning nail button/stud! I have the nail's & burr's made. The stud base is the only step left. I am finishing up the 1863 Houston Depot Box that me and Don Smith started five months ago. I'm also working on a .69 cal Elongated Confederate Box & a Atlanta Box that Joe Walker has shared with me from his collection. After these three cartridge box runs for Joe at Skillet Licker is done, I'll finish on this project for the canvas awning nail button studs. I'm looking forward to this because I've always wanted to make that box on pg. 185. I have seen two others with this type finial, one for sale on the web at one of those common relic shops (I can't remember off hand) & Mr. Jordan B. Reeves collection. Check back with me and I will send a stud or two your way!
Regards,
Cary A. Davisson

[militiaman1835]

Is there anyone who currently makes or could make me a cap pouch like one shown on page 196 EOG on the horter magee belt? Also a British brunswick rifle ball bag like on page 207? Thanks, JIM HENSLEY

[Richmond Depot]

Try Neil Rose and Brad Malone or Nick Duvall.

E, J and T Mercantile can probably do it also if provided a sample or drawings to work with.

Best,

[sam.p]

Help.

Fill me in on Confederate cap boxes. Lead finial, brass finial, one belt loop, two belt loops, cotton stiching, What?

Cordially,
Sam Patterson

[Jim Mayo]

Yes to all of the above. CS Cap boxes were made by many vendors and there are all sorts of varieties. I have some examples on this page.

http://www.angelfire.com/ma4/j_mayo/csequip.html

[huntdaw]

Welcome to the forum with your first post. There's a start for you with Jim's reply. You need to do some research and then come back with specific questions you can't find the answer to. General questions like yours can be answered with a modicum of research. You'll fare better here if you put some work in first and then come here for clarification etc.

It's the old adage about teaching a man to fish.

[J_V]

Go to amazon.com and order a copy of Echoes of Glory: Arms and Equipment of the Confederacy. While that book is not the end-all of CW military equipment, it is a good starting point and good fundamental book to own. It deals with all types of equipment, but would be an adviseable starting point, in my opinion.

Jonathan Vaughan

[Craig L Barry]

Jim is right, he has a nice collection of US and CS artifacts there. EoG is a good starting off point, but does not tell you exactly what you probably want to know...Michael is correct in that your question can not really be answered as it is posed. Confederate accoutrements varied in style/materials by the time period, supplier and theater of war. Try to avoid the common mistakes. IE: It would be incorrect to assume a cap pouch wasn't CS because it didn't have one large loop on the back. Not all CS cap pouches had a single belt loop. The best advice would be to determine where the unit you are portraying got their equipment, or study pictures of soldiers from that unit to the extent these details can be made out. I think this is what you want to know...what is the correct style of accoutrement for your unit/theater/time period.

You might find some even had imported British accoutrements...

[luthhaning]

Sam,
The variety of construction techniques and materials can be readily seen in examining just one collection such as the one at Gettysburg N.P. You can see trends but the variety is significant. You could ask the same question of Federal cap pouches to a lesser degree. There are significant differences of patterns in federal cap pouches produced just prior to and during the war if you examine them closely. Each pattern being able to be tracked to a particular arsenal specification and time period. Check out a collection near you sometime if you haven't already. It is always enlightening but also raises new questions to be answered.

Tim Welch
L.D. Haning and Co.

[Charles Heath]

What?

Sam, at least you didn't scream "gimme all yer research."

This book doesn't receive the play that it should, but it is well worth reading, even if it has a couple of goobers here and there:

Collecting the Confederacy. Shannon Pritchard. Illustrated, bibliography, index, 274 pp., 2005. Old South Military Antiques LLC, Box 175, Studley, VA 23162

The real vision test is finding the bait box listed as a cap pouch. :rolleyes:

[Wabash&Erie]

I'm hoping somebody can tell me what I have on my hands. By all appearances it is a surviving leather cap box completely intact with no torn stitches or straps. It has brass finial. It has second inside flap, but there is no wool to retain the cap. Instead, there is a strip of what looks like the chamois you use to dry your car with.

On the outside front is a stamp. It is oval in shape and across the top I think it says G I Woodbury or G K Woodbury. There are two lines in the middle. The top one says US, and the bottom one says ORD DEPT. Curved along the bottom of the oval it appears to say "something" Inspector. However, I think Inspector is spelled incorrectly. It looks like Incpector.

Who made it? Is it actually from the War or before or after? Does it have any value?

Any help that is available will be appreciated.


Regards,
Mark Wallace

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

Sight unseen... ;)

Yes, it sounds like a Civil War cap box, produced in several similar-looking forms by Federal arsenals and contractors.

That would be G.T. Woodbury who was a Sub-Inspector. He typically inspected the boxes for contractor W.H. Wilkinson of Springfield, Massachusetts.
The "style" of the stamp was set up in July of 1864 by Captain Julian McAllister when he was charged with organizing a new office of sub-inspectors for accoutrement sets and horse equipments being purchased by the Army.
The intact stamp would read:

G.T. WOODBURY
ORD DEPT
SUB-INSPECTOR

The exact appearance of these stamps varies a little by inspector and time.

The "chamois" you see is sheep skin, what is left of the fleece wool strip that was used to keep the caps from bouncing around or out of the box. The wool may have disintegrated and been removed, or possibly been eaten by moths (although mothes will sometimes eat skin too).

"Value" is tricky, based upon maker, condition, region it is sold in, local markets, or captive audience markets such as Gettysburg shops like the "Horse Soldier."
You can browse some of the original CW item website sellers for an idea....

Curt

[65thgainf]

Average price for such a cap pouch is around $100.00 or less.

[DaveGink]

Hello,

I recently purchased a cap pouch (see attached photo) from a vendor listed on the Approved vendor list. It is billed as an early-war 1850 box, smaller front flap, hand sewn, no rivets, niple pick loop. There was no photo on the web site but they are a vendor that I believed to have a good reputation.

Anyway, I am no expert on cap pouches, but upon receiving it, I felt that it is not as authentic as I was expecing it to be. I am hoping someone here can share their expertise and let me know.

From the few photos of authentic early war cap boxes I can find it seems the flap is too large and appears to be more like the mid-to later war box. Also it seems to be sewn with too few stitches per inch. And there does not seem to be a nipple pick loop inside (although billed as such). Also, it appears the belt loops were glued on before sewing (is this an authentic construction technique?). I'm not sure what was used to tan or blacken the leather (I'm guessing it wasn't period).

Anyway, I Emailed the vendor with these questions but have not yet heard back. I'm considering sending it back unless my authenticity concerns are unjustified and it is indeed an "authentic" early-war pouch. So any help here will be appreciated.

Thanks!
Dave

[Marc]

Can't speak to the authenticity, but it looks fairly sloppy to my eyes. Isn't there a book out on cap boxs that received good reviews a few years back.

[Stonewall_Greyfox]

I recently purchased a cap pouch (see attached photo) from a vendor listed on the Approved vendor list. It is billed as an early-war 1850 box, smaller front flap, hand sewn, no rivets, niple pick loop. There was no photo on the web site but they are a vendor that I believed to have a good reputation.


OK...here's my shot...

First Question: Is this supposed to be an Early War Federal Contract Cap Box, or of CS Manufacture?


Also it seems to be sewn with too few stitches per inch.


There is some variance in stitching apparant in existing Federal Accoutrements, with the greatest range of 10-12 Stitches per inch (SPI)...there are of course accoutrements ranging with more/less stitches than this...

Confederate Manufactured Accoutrements tend to range across the board with very sloppy stitches at 4 SPI to very fine stitches 12 SPI


From the few photos of authentic early war cap boxes I can find it seems the flap is too large and appears to be more like the mid-to later war box.

Which flap seems too large? The outer flap, inner flap, or the ear-tabs on the inner flap?


And there does not seem to be a nipple pick loop inside (although billed as such).


The majority of cap pouches I have examined had a place or remnant of a nipple pick holder within the box, that said...not every box I looked at had a nipple pick holder inside. Nevertheless, if it was advertised as having an inner nipple-pick holder...you deserve to have it.


Also, it appears the belt loops were glued on before sewing (is this an authentic construction technique?).


The use of some glue on originals is apparant...although I've never found this apparant on the outside of the pouch...Typically what I can tell remains on originals is traces of hide/fish glue used to hold the wool down inside the pouch (even then, this glue has not been apparant on every box I've examined). Many of the pouches surviving today have what appear to be tack-holes from where it was held together on a wooden mold during various phases of construction.


I'm not sure what was used to tan or blacken the leather (I'm guessing it wasn't period).


A variety of dyes were used during the period including, ferrous-oxide "iron dye", oil-based dyes, and a variety of chemical/ink dyes...

I'm sure we'd all be curious as to who the vendor is...

Hope this helps,

Paul

[Toney]

Here are some link to pictures of a real one.

http://www.stonesrivertrading.com/L209A.jpg

http://www.stonesrivertrading.com/L209B.jpg

http://www.stonesrivertrading.com/L209D.jpg

Joe Toey

[Iron Scout]

My Goodness Joe,

Adding pics of an original to compare to a bad reproduction! Who ever heard of such a concept; you're to be commended. Tongue in cheek of course but bully!

Neill Rose
PLHA

[DaveGink]

OK...here's my shot...

First Question: Is this supposed to be an Early War Federal Contract Cap Box, or of CS Manufacture?

There is some variance in stitching apparant in existing Federal Accoutrements, with the greatest range of 10-12 Stitches per inch (SPI)...there are of course accoutrements ranging with more/less stitches than this...

Confederate Manufactured Accoutrements tend to range across the board with very sloppy stitches at 4 SPI to very fine stitches 12 SPI

Which flap seems too large? The outer flap, inner flap, or the ear-tabs on the inner flap?

The majority of cap pouches I have examined had a place or remnant of a nipple pick holder within the box, that said...not every box I looked at had a nipple pick holder inside. Nevertheless, if it was advertised as having an inner nipple-pick holder...you deserve to have it.

The use of some glue on originals is apparant...although I've never found this apparant on the outside of the pouch...Typically what I can tell remains on originals is traces of hide/fish glue used to hold the wool down inside the pouch (even then, this glue has not been apparant on every box I've examined). Many of the pouches surviving today have what appear to be tack-holes from where it was held together on a wooden mold during various phases of construction.

A variety of dyes were used during the period including, ferrous-oxide "iron dye", oil-based dyes, and a variety of chemical/ink dyes...

I'm sure we'd all be curious as to who the vendor is...

Hope this helps,

Paul

Thanks Paul!

That is some great information.

Yes, It's supposed to be an early war Federal cap box.

And I was speaking of the outer flap. The photos posted by Toney (Thanks Toney) are of the shape and size I've seen in looking at early war originals ...where the flap starts to curve inward at a sharper angle about half-way down the pouch (you could see more of the pouch) and had a much shorter tab. Although I wasn't sure if this shaped outer flap was also used on those early pouches. It seems the belt loops may be too long as well.

I had a few PMs and the general consensus seems to be that it's very wrong. I was told that the pouch size and shape was wrong -- And that the thread used, and finish were wrong too.

All-in-all, it sounds like it's going back.

Many thanks to all who replied and PM'd!!!

Dave

[65thgainf]

Was it a contract pouch ?

[Duvall Leatherwork]

To offer a little info about cap boxes…

Sizes…
Unlike cartridge boxes, which do very in sized by ¼ or ½ inch due to the ammunition being stored in them, cap boxes have no reason to very in size. The size difference of original cap boxes can be attributed to the actual manufacturers…arsenal produced or contractor produced. To say that early war cap boxes are smaller in size is just not true! I have examined original cap boxes manufactured before, during, and after the civil war, and one thing is always the same…no two are exactly the same size. Even cap boxes that are the same model and date of manufacture can be different in size. This may be attributed to the size of the molds used to make the inside pouch. I don’t think an 1/8th inch difference in size can justify a cap box being early war or late war!

Patterns…
To the best of my current knowledge, the “Full Faced” or “Shield Front” cap box is probably the most noticeably different early war manufactured cap box. Its origins of manufacture date from pre-war until late 1862 at which time this pattern was replaced with the Pattern 1862 Federal Issue cap box, which was then replace with the Pattern 1864 Federal Issue cap box. Also, the “Shield Front” cap box was manufacture at the same time as the Pattern 1857 Federal Issue cap box and there are some differences in all of these cap boxes…the use of or lack of rivets, makers marks, vent picks, and the most noticeable feature, the outer flap. Typically, when searching for the correct pre or early war cap box, the “shield front” cap box is the federal pattern you may want to acquire. The lack of rivets is a fairly good, but not always, indicator of pre or early war manufacture.

Construction…
I have yet to examine or own an original Federal issue cap box which is poorly constructed! Super tight stitching (usually 8-11 stitches per inch), perfectly form molded inner pouch, and great flowing cuts and lines!! When looking at reproductions, construction is everything…bar none!

I could really care less about who made the cap box in the attached photos above, nor do I care to degrade the product or the business that sold it, but I want you to know what makes a great historically accurate reproduction...and what makes this cap box a poor reproduction! Poor construction, large machine stitching, cheap leather, and no vent pick loop….all I can say is you get what you pay for!!!

I have attached a few photos of some original cap boxes…note all the sizes, rivets or lack of, and patterns! I hope this has helped you out!

Thanks,
Nick Duvall
Duvall Leatherwork
314 Wyoming Ave
Kingston, PA 18704
(570)283-9297
duvall_leatherwork@hotmail.com
www.duvallleatherwork.com

Pattern 1857 Federal Issue Cap Box (Sewn Belt Loops)
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f58/nick_d10995/4OutsideScale.jpg
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f58/nick_d10995/5RainFlapScale.jpg
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f58/nick_d10995/8BackScale.jpg
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pattern 1857 Federal Issue Cap Box (Sewn & Riveted Belt Loops)
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f58/nick_d10995/1FrontScale.jpg
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f58/nick_d10995/2RainFlapScale.jpg
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f58/nick_d10995/4BackScale.jpg
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pattern 1862 Federal Issue Cap Box (Sewn & Riveted Belt Loops)
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f58/nick_d10995/pouch.jpg
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f58/nick_d10995/pouchinside.jpg
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f58/nick_d10995/pouchback.jpg
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Federal Issue "Shield Front" cap box (Sewn & Riveted Belt Loops)
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f58/nick_d10995/CWResearch082.jpg
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f58/nick_d10995/CWResearch081.jpg
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f58/nick_d10995/CWResearch085.jpg
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Federal Issue Pattern 1864 Cap Box (Sewn & Riveted Belt Loops/No rain flap)
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f58/nick_d10995/Face.jpg
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f58/nick_d10995/Open.jpg
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f58/nick_d10995/Back.jpg

[DaveGink]

Thanks Nick!! That is some excellent information. And I appreciate the photos!!

If nothing else, at least this experience has lead to greater knowledge.

Thanks again!
Dave

[DaveGink]

Nick,

In looking over those images, I noticed that some pouches do not have the horizontal line of stitching coming through the back (where the sheepskin is sewn inside). What is the significance of that, if anything?

Also, what is the difference between the first box on top (labeled Pattern 1857 Federal Issue Cap Box (Sewn Belt Loops) and the 1850 pattern box of the same style? Are they basically the same pattern?

Thanks!!
Dave

[Rob]

In looking over those images, I noticed that some pouches do not have the horizontal line of stitching coming through the back (where the sheepskin is sewn inside).

I thought it was glued. :confused:

[DaveGink]

I thought it was glued. :confused:

If I am not mistaken, I believe it is generally both glued and also sewn along the top. But perhaps an expert can verify this?

[1st Maine Trooper]

My original Shield front is stitched.

Dave Myrick

[3alabama]

I have 5 Federal an 2 confederate cap pouches (originals of course) and the wool was sewn in all of them. It is held in place by a straight line of stitching across the top.

[August77]

I don't claim to be an expert, but here goes....

I must agree with Nick D. in that I don't want to get into degrading someone's work, but there are certain things I look for in repro leathers, among them are:

Stark white thread is an immediate turn off. It's like the people around my way that put the really nice rims (spinners) on their tri-colored spray painted, duck taped 94 Honda Civic, it just sticks out.

If you pick it up and your hands turn black, that usually means a modern aniline dye was used. Dye of the period worked because of a reaction between the contents of the dye and the tannin in the leather. For more info on that I would suggest reading David Jarnigans article in the Company of Military Historian Journal on Hemlock tanned leather (I don't have the issue handy right now, so I can't give you the number).

The color is also a factor for me. Feibings or other modern dyes tend to give off purplish (not sure if that's a word or not) streaks in certain light.

As far as the stitching across the back goes, I have attached a picture of a similar one. Most of the pouches I have seen produced like this have the wool whip stitched to the inner rain flap therefore the stitches do not come out the back.

Dave, I think the best thing you can do is ask the person who sold you the cap box if he has pictures of the original he copied and what materials he used to produce it. It's also a good idea to go to as many antique arms shows as you can. Usually at the good ones you will see more leather accoutrements than at most museums and they are usually laying on a table, not behind glass. The next time you go cap pouch shopping you will be amazed at the things you will be looking for.

I've seen some pretty sloppy federal cap pouches in my day, but generally they tend to be fairly consistent. The stitch count on the earlier ones tends to be about 8 and it seems like the stitching got tighter as time went on to about 10. Anything over that and you start perforating the leather. You see this in cartridge boxes as well. Open the implement pouch on a '61 pattern and the flap is sewn in with a very loose single needle stitch, maybe 2-3 to the inch. Now look in a '64 box, it has nice double need stitch 9-10 to the inch. I think one thing to keep in mind as far as size and quality goes is the fact that these things were produced under a lot different circumstances than today. Think about how many sets of accoutrements had to be produced. A contract for 10,000 sets in 2 months is a pretty tall order. I'm sure these shops didn't have many government regulations in place either, meaning long work days, child labor, etc., etc. Remember that leather dries out and shrinks over the years, and not at the same rate, which can also account for subtle differences in size and shape.

The second picture that is attached is part of my collection that shows various periods of cap pouches. This is of course my best determination. I am hesitant to label them with a pattern date as I would rather await the arrival of the book on this subject by Mr. Gaede.

Oh yeah, check out our new website at http://www.ejtmercantile.com. I am still adding products so please be patient.

Thanks!
Bill Lomas

[DaveGink]

Wow, what happened to this thread? It looks like the posts from a cartridge box thread somehow got merged into it? And now it says the thread was started by "Thumper" instead of by me?

Also, a thread I started last night looking for period photos, or modern photos of existing Union Mechanical Hard tack boxes disappeared. My first thought was that the mods deleted it for some reason, but that didn't really make sense to me since I was asking about an authentic item. Is something wierd going on?

[C.R. Henderson]

Dave,
the lost U-mech threat got moved and surgically re-attached to the rations (http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13288&highlight=rations) thread (page 100 or so). I found it by chance a few minutes ago.

[DaveGink]

Ah, Thanks Chris!! They must be doing some house keeping. I thought maybe the site was getting buggy.

Cheers,
Dave