Reproduction Civilian Arms

[23rdIllinoisIrish]

I'm putting together a civilian/early war MSG impression and am in need of a repo double barrel shotgun, "deer rifle," or "squirrel rifle." I am familiar with the sites such as gunbroker and other antique gun markets but would prefer a reproduction to take into the field with me.

Does anybody have any suggestions on who offers quality civilian repo arms?

Thanks,
For Missouri and the Cause,
Matthew Jas. Shomaker

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

One possible resource is TRACK OF THE WOLF'S on-line site:

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/(S(wheyvl45dolksqye1bjhna45))/categories/partList.aspx?catID=12&subID=83&styleID=290

IMHO, by and large, the mass produced, commercial Italian import line usually falls way short on historical civilian type arms- and most lads are not knowledgeable about or have access to custom-makers or custom-builts.
While TRACK's pricing is considered high by some due to their 33% commission, there are sometimes some nice pieces to be had at a decent price.

Curt

[Craig L Barry]

You can also build something from one of those kits and end up with a decent weapon. There is really a great deal of misunderstanding batting around these parts on Civilian weapons of the Civil War period, and when published, "Wearing the Gray" (late 2008 or early 2009) will dispell many of the myths.

It is not that hard to do. There are numerous originals to study. I built a very decent flintlock "American Mtn Rifle" from a kit and you can make the corrections as you go along. Or you can go the custom route. A shotgun is a a good choice, too. Options aplenty.

Curt Heinrich Schmidt will not steer you wrong. "Track" is a good starting place.

[gilham]

I have been shooting black powder civilian arms for 20 years and have built several kits. When I started building, kits were about 80.00 bucks. I would suggest getting the new Dixie gun works catalog and ordering one of thier kits. Thompson Center has a Hwken kit that is based on an original Hawkens Bros. rifle for about $ 200.00. You can make it as fancy or as plain as you like.
Hope this helps

[ohpkirk]

I've always liked the Rustic Arms (http://www.earlyrusticarms.com/pricesanddescriptions.htm) long arms though many predate our era, some, like the Carolina gun and the Barn gun may be applicable to your impression.

Also, you can't go wrong with Taylor Anderson at Fort Comanche (http://www.fortcomanche.com/index.htm) here in Texas. One of the guys in my Texas State Troops unit has a m1817 common rifle made by him.....spot on in all aspects.

[fahtz]

As for MSG, the quality and type of weapons varied greatly. Farmers and small town men often carried well outdated weapons. flintlocks and weapons that were past ther prime were previlent, also the well maintained heirloom rifles and fowlers we also through the ranks. One thing you need to take into consideration is what type of MSG impression you are doing. Rememebr at any given time there we unarmed men in the ranks. Save up for a nice weapon, borrow if needed, or work on the unarmed impression. The unarmed men often picked up weapons fromt heir fallen counterparts as well. I ten to buy any original/reproduction civian weapon I can afford and find. I like many other MSG living historians have many weapons that we can loan out to a pard looking to field. Drop me a line if you need more state guard information.

[MoFed]

"I would suggest getting the new Dixie gun works catalog and ordering one of thier kits. Thompson Center has a Hwken kit that is based on an original Hawkens Bros. rifle for about $ 200.00."

The PEC choice for MSG (mostly farmers) would be a single or double barrel shotgun or a Tennessee/Kentucky rifle, in percussion or flintlock. Although Hawken's rifles were made in St. Louis, they were expensive, custom-built and produced in comparatively small numbers (someone with better access to gun collector books may have an exact figure). Not to say there weren't any in the MSG, but the other options would have been much more common.

Charles D. Hoskins

[tiger_rifles]

Don't forget about all the older, smooth-bore, military arms that were cutdown, or atleast had the stocks cut back, you will often see these listed as "Single barrel Shotguns". These can be left as flintlocks or corverted to percussion. Many modern repro's are availible in these models.
Paul Bennett

[csasoldier_61]

There is a military smoothbore (M1842 Springfield I think) that was cut down to a shotgun in the museum at the Mansfield SCA that shows a lot of good detail. It would be really interesting to see in the field. IMHO I think that it is underrepresented.

Adam "OX" Johnson

[ACo.]

There is a military smoothbore (M1842 Springfield I think) that was cut down to a shotgun in the museum at the Mansfield SCA that shows a lot of good detail. It would be really interesting to see in the field. IMHO I think that it is underrepresented.

Adam "OX" Johnson




Why "underrepresented" in our hobby Adam? The gun was cut down post CW.

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

IMHO, the Thompson-Center "Hawken" and its legions of Italian and Spanish clones are not based on a Jake and Sam, or Sam Hawken (so-called) "plains rifle" other than they are half-stocked and percussion.
A side-by-side comparison with post 1840's "Hawken Shop-St.Louis" Samuel Hawken, Christopher Hawken, William Hawken, Christian Hoffman, Tristam Campbell, William Watt, or J. P. Gemmer made "Hawkens" will show only a very minor, superficial resemblance- and are NOT a very "authentic" choice for an eastern civilian rifle of the CW era.

Historically, for that matter, they were not even that common among "mountainmen" largely falling after the end of the beaver trade, and due to being very expensive to the point that Hawken Shop record books typically show orders coming from fur trade company "exec's" and brigade leaders and not the company men or free trappers. They sold more to Gold Rushers and wagon train guides posing as real or former mountainmen... ;-)

IMHO, a "Tennessee" type rifle or various percussion half stock or full stock "deer" type rifles (say a so-called "Ohio Rifle") are more common- perhaps second only to the versatile shotgun.

Others' mileage will vary...

Curt

[Jeff Prechtel]

Like Curt stated, I too would steer waaaaay clear of any
pre-made "Hawkin" clone that's currently offered on the
market by Thompson & etc, as they're historically inaccurate.

I'd look at the Southern style "Barn" guns if you're impression/persona
lives in the rural south, small caliber .45, 40. 32 long rifles, also work
for various regions, Penn, anywhere in Appalachia, Kentucky, Tennessee,
and the closer you get to Ohio, Indiana or Illinois, start looking at Ohio Valley
1/2 stock "Perch Belly" rifles, or a good, well made, correct heavy barreled, "plains"
style rifle, something that would have made the trek on the Oregon or California trails.

As far as "Military" style weapons.....unless you live on or near the frontier;
meaning, Texas, Kansas, Missouri border, Arkansas, or have traveled one
of the previous mentioned OR/Ca trails, I pretty much doubt you'd have a military
weapon for hunting. You might have your Grandfather's or Father's old military
musket, 1816, 1842, or an old Mississippi rifle (these made the trip out west a-plenty)

I'd really try and stick with a small caliber rifle, or a shot gun, if you can find one.
Those are going to be tough to come by tho......I haven't seen too many floating
around that weren't originals, or very expensive custom built repros.

If you run the small Pennsylvania/Kentucky rifle route, I'd consider getting
a small pigskin hunting bad to go with it, and/or a small day horn....if you
get a flintlock. Good luck with your search.

[Prodical Reb]

Anothere source for civilian arm is "The Possible Shop (http://www.possibleshop.com/)" They have many of the PA, TN, NC, KY, and Hawken repro and hand made rifles in many calibers.

[Jeff Prechtel]

Here's a sample of "civilian" firearms, that would probably
work for you.These are from Track of the Wolf's site...

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/(S(zarmob45aro01kbhjzg45lvf))/categories/partDetail.aspx?catId=12&subId=81&styleId=280&partNum=AAE-373


http://www.trackofthewolf.com/(S(zarmob45aro01kbhjzg45lvf))/categories/partDetail.aspx?catId=12&subId=81&styleId=280&partNum=AAE-678


http://www.trackofthewolf.com/(S(zarmob45aro01kbhjzg45lvf))/categories/partDetail.aspx?catId=12&subId=81&styleId=280&partNum=AAE-717


http://www.trackofthewolf.com/(S(zarmob45aro01kbhjzg45lvf))/categories/partDetail.aspx?catId=12&subId=81&styleId=280&partNum=AAE-684


http://www.trackofthewolf.com/(S(zarmob45aro01kbhjzg45lvf))/categories/partDetail.aspx?catId=12&subId=83&styleId=290&partNum=AAE-150

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/(S(zarmob45aro01kbhjzg45lvf))/categories/partDetail.aspx?catId=12&subId=78&styleId=266&partNum=AAE-369

[tiger_rifles]

Why "underrepresented" in our hobby Adam? The gun was cut down post CW.
__________________
T.P. Hern
formerly, Co. A, 4th Virginia
Stonewall Brigade

When Sibley's Army leaves Texas in late 1861, it is reported that they carry every arm possible. From Squirrel Rifles to Bear Rifles, Single and Double Barrel Shotguns, Older Military and Civilian Arms cut back for Mounted Service. Rounds have been found to match these weapons at the last Battle of this Campaigne at Glorietta just outside of Santa Fe N.M., March of 1862, eventhough many modern Military weapons and ammo were captured along the way.
So how can we be sure every cut-back military arm we see was done "Post CW"?
Paul Bennett

[C.R. Henderson]

So is there anyone out there selling shotgun kits that are worth doing?

[tmdreb]

If you're interested in a good shotgun, I'd ignore the repros and get you an original in decent shape and have it checked out by a gunsmith before using it. The Italian repro shotguns share the same shortcomings as their military counterparts, namely that they're too heavy and chunky. Thankfully, original shotguns are plentiful and cost relatively the same as a repro, if not less.

Paul, I'm guessing Mr. Hern has some inside knowledge about the musket in the Mansfield museum he's going to share with us.

Note in this well-used image that there is indeed a sporterized musket sitting next to John Burns. While it may be a photographer's prop of some kind, obviously this modification was not done postwar, as the image was taken while Burns was recovering from the wounds he took at Gettysburg, unless I my information is incorrect.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e2/John_Burns_of_Gettysburg.jpg

[C.R. Henderson]

"If you're interested in a good shotgun, I'd ignore the repros and get you an original in decent shape and have it checked out by a gunsmith before using it. The Italian repro shotguns share the same shortcomings as their military counterparts, namely that they're too heavy and chunky. Thankfully, original shotguns are plentiful and cost relatively the same as a repro, if not less." Originally posted by Phil Graf.


Thanks, Phil. I've been doing quite a bit of research over the past couple of days and I figured that was the case. You're right, the originals in good or very good condition are comparable to an assembled kit or even some repro customs. Now it's a decision between buying a new 1842 w/mods or a Belgian made double barrel shotgun! So many wonderful guns, so little money!:rolleyes:

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

"Anothere source for civilian arm is "The Possible Shop" They have many of the PA, TN, NC, KY, and Hawken repro and hand made rifles in many calibers."

I might not have found the Possible Shop's menu for historically faithful custom-built rifles, but the majority of their on-line page offerings appear to be just the type of imported reproduction Italian and Spanish guns I was speaking AGAINST. Such as the
pseudo "Hawken," "Ohio," or "Pennsylvania" rifles popular among the ML hunting, buckskining, and rendezvous community that bear only minor or superficial faithfulness or accuracy to the original 19th and 18th century arms.

"Track of the Wolf" is a possibile source but, IMHO, one needs to be prepared in two ways:

1. The company charges a 33% mark-up "commission" for their services in listing guns on-line. Sellers wanting/needing the full market value wil see their pieces listed at that price PLUS 1/3- which in many instances "inflate" the price for the convenience of being able to buy it on-line. This is particularly true of used reproduction Italian arms, which often see the price way over the NIB (New, In the Box) prices

2. One needs to bring their own research and documentation with them, and be the educated customer and informed consumer as TRACK sells to a wide customer-base from the "authentic" down through the History-Light down through the Imagination/Fantasy folks.

Over the years, I have bought and sold several guns from TRACK.

Others' mileage will vary...

Curt

[WestTN_reb]

Personally, I don't much care for Track's prices. If you want a gun custom built from the floor up, custom fitted to the shooter, for a much more reasonable price, check out Tennessee Valley Muzzleloading.

[23rdIllinoisIrish]

Thanks to everyone for the information and suggestions! Has anyone had experience with either Dixie Gun Work's or Track of the Wolf's kits? Any thoughts? Again, thanks to everyone for your contributions.

M. Shomaker

[Vuhginyuh]

Thanks to everyone for the information and suggestions! Has anyone had experience with either Dixie Gun Work's or Track of the Wolf's kits? Any thoughts? Again, thanks to everyone for your contributions.

M. Shomaker

I sent you a private message concerning this.

Do you have any idea what you need? Give us a clue what your thoughts are.

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

In brief and to over-generalize...

If a business' offerings appear to be just the type of imported reproduction Italian and Spanish guns I was speaking AGAINST, then the kits of the same will be "historically challenged" as well and NOT a viable option.

IF one has researched and documented what is an appropriate "civilian" rifle" or "shotgun" of the CW Era, for the specifics of a time/place/impression-....up-to-a-point, a collection of component parts can be selected from say TRACK to build a custom piece.
The operative warning here is that that route normally involves a greater skill/experience set and tool set than the Everyday Joe has to bring to the work bench. Collections of component parts are not the same as a "kit" that is 98% finished, "in the white," that just requires disaasembling, polishing of metal and sanding and finishing of wood, and reassembly.

Curt

[guad42]

I would have to agree with Curt on Track of the Wolf. Having lived in the Southwest for many years, these are just the type of guns found in local collections that made their way from the South or midwest in the early and mid century.

Though the prices are high, they are reasonable when measured against other custom builders who won't even look at you for less that 5,000.00. (no offense custom builders, you do fine work).

Before CW, I dabbled quite a bit in Civilian and Southwestern collecting and study when it came to weapons. The Spanish and Italians simply do not supply the type of weapons common among civilians. They are mostly stylized (think Redford in Jeremiah Johnson) and imagined, rather than direct copies of originals. The kits are much the same, unless you go the distance and do significant work on it.

IMHO - If you do not have the $$$$ for a custom built or semi-custom built gun, or a serviceable original, and do not want to carry one of myriad "Hawkens" type guns (not very authentic) as provided by the Italians, then you could do worse than a repro M1841 Percussion Rifle. The "Mississippi" was somewhat common West of the Miss (not nearly as so in the south and east as above and previously mentioned arms). That is if you want to take the economical and easy way out.

Sam Dolan

[fahtz]

I will agree with you on the Mississippi Rifle being a good option for a civilian arm. However, Knowing what the impression the lad is going for (Missouri State Guard 1861 Rural Missouri) I would shy away from the now very common in the ranks 1840's musket. It is a documented fact that these boys had shotguns, squirrel rifles, early smoothbores, and some... SOME 41-42 patterns. However for ealry conflicts in Missouri the safest choice for a military style weapon would be a m16 or m22. The armory at St Louis still had hords of the 42 pattern, and were not lettign them out, they also had 55 rifles, and 61's. Hope this throws some mud in the water! I would like to echo the comments on the original pattern shotguns. They can not be beat. Often one off, no one has the same ole shotgun. This impression is all about being an individual.

[guad42]

Well put. I believe there are some arms at the museum at Wilson's Creek. I remember seeing an M1816 or 22 there and perhaps some original civilian arms, but it has been a few years.

-Sam Dolan

[OldKingCrow]

Richmond Dispatch.
Tuesday morning...June 18, 1861.

Something more about arms.

We are glad to see that in the views we have expressed on this subject we have the concurrence of our able contemporary, the Richmond Enquirer. That journal expresses the opinion that in the rural districts every house possesses arms enough for its own defence a gun for every third male, or about 950,000 rifles and shot-guns, the private property of the Southern population. That paper says:

"Knowing this to be the case, we are disposed to be a little incredulous when we hear it said that certain localities could send additional companies into the field, if it were not for the impossibility of obtaining suitable arms. No doubt every company organized would like to have the best arms in use; but when this is unattainable, it ought not to follow that the country should be left undefended. It is true that the rifled musket can do execution with some precision at the distance of five hundred yards, and that the shot-gun at the same distance would do none. But, then, is it to be supposed that Virginians are going to stand stilt and be shot down, at their own doors, by Yankee invaders? There is a very simple mode of shortening the distance. At fifty yards, each barrel loaded with fifteen buckshot, the gun, which was harmless at a long distance, fires I whole broadside at every discharge. Any one of the thirty buckshot will die a man; and if aimed low, a little above the knee, the double but place may knock down a half dozen Yankees at every fire, white the Minnie ball can only hit our, and even that is improbable at a short distance.--So much for the heavy double-barrel shot-gun. Then there is the hunter a ride, which will do execution, in the hands of a Southern marksman, one hundred and fifty yards.--These will do for the fences, rocks, and trees, Daniel Boone or Indian fashion, until the shot gun can get within killing range."

Even if there were not private arms enough, we could fight with slings, bows and arrows, reap- hooks, tomahawks, scythes, carving knives, anything knives, anything defence of hearth-stones and little ones. As we have before said, the most destructive battles in the world occurred before the invention of gunpowder. It is not the weapon as much as the man who used it. A people, whose farms are threatened with confiscation and whose hearth-stones with pollution, will scarcely wait for improved arms to defend themselves. If a robber attacks your house at night, you will not send to a neighbors a quarter of a mile off, for a Minnie musket, if you have in your house an old horse pistol, an axe, or a hatchet. One of the best weapons for warfare, and which is used on board all our ships-of-war, is the pike. This is employed for the hardest part of the fight — that is, when the crew of one ship attempts to board the other. These pikes can be readily manufactured. A long hunter's rifle is excellent; so are double-barrel shot guns; so is anything that will hurt or kill, provided always that it is in the hands of a man.

[mslaird]

I have a couple of questions about civilian firearms as well. Would it be more likely for the rifles or fowling pieces to be flintlock rather than percussion? Also wouldn't most families that would want an all-purpose firearm for procuring additional subsistance to use a flintlock smoothbore instead of even a rifled arm? Last, other than the sights being a bit wrong, what about the Lyman plains rifles? I know that they are of the imported variety but from what I have seen of original firearms of the type, the Lymans appear to look more like the originals than the other imports that I have seen. I too am looking at creating an early war MSG impression, pre-Wilson's Creek-Wilson's Creek. I have been wondering myself about the civilian arm question. Thanks to all who have posted, it has been an education and I appreciate it.

[ohpkirk]

In the 'frontier' regions, flintlocks would have been more prevalent, at least in my experience. I have found documentation that citizens in this part of Texas were still using flintlock long arms well into the 1880's due to the lack of percussion caps. It was easy to find flint (very plentiful here) and knap it properly.

As for your question about an all purpose arm, there was such a long arm: the combination gun. Just like the modern combo guns, these long arms were both rifles and shot guns. The one that I am going to purchase is an original from the early 1850's with the barrels stacked/over-under .

[Vuhginyuh]

This is a very broad topic and homework is required. Here is a good place to start; http://www.shumwaypublisher.com/store/shop/category.asp?catid=2
http://www.shumwaypublisher.com/store/shop/category.asp?catid=3

[mslaird]

I must admit that I did not realize that combination guns existed to great extent at that time. I knew that there were some but I believed those to be limited in availability. Thanks for the information and a new avenue of research for me to look at.

[fahtz]

One specific MSG account points to James Harding (QM of Missouri) refurbishing the flintlock muskets to percussion firing systems just before the war. At the same time he was purchasing hundreds of civilian hunting weapons. The numbers of these state: 300 rifles in .58 caliber, 600 .69 caliber and some artillery short swords. does this mean the MSG had 42's and enfields? NOPE! This means that they had old converted 16's and 22's and also some 55 pattern muskets. We can point to one specific company that had the 55 pattern muskets. Kelly's Company out of St Louis had been outfitted with the 55 pattern rifle prior to the Camp Jackson Massacre. Another type of military rifle in the hands of the state guard is the Mississippi Rifle, these were taken from the arsenal at Liberty. Also in KC they acquired Burnside carbines.
So this means by the summer of 61 the MSG marching with Price had a huge variation of weapons. What people need to remember is that the state guard was often split. An example is that the 2nd division MSG can not be painted with the same brush as the force marching with Price. The 2nd division held to the northern part of the state for the early moments of the war in Missouri, and had predominately civilian weapons.

[mslaird]

I agree and with the amount of research that I have done, which albeit is a bit limited compared to the vast amount of knowledge gathered amongst the members of this forum, I believe that the Enfield was not a common weapon at all in the Trans Mississippi until possibly late 1862 early 1863. I was astonished to learn over the course of the summer and this fall that the Austrian Lorenze was apparently here in some numbers and you are absolutely correct that the 1841, 1855, and 1842 (rifled) were the predominant rifled arms on the fields west of the Mississippi. I believe as well that the 1816/1822, thier conversions, and the 1842 were probably the most common infantry arms used in the west during the early part of the war. I would give the greater edge in numbers to the 1816/1822 muskets and thier conversions, unfortunately I do not see many of those amongst those participating in living history events. I theorize that this is more due to the higher cost of the reproductions than anything else. I myself would love to get one and use it and probably would have but, my 1842 was purchased for me and I do not decry a gift from a loved one.

One thing that always galled me was the units that exist here in my backyard that inaccurately portray regiments that I have ancestors that actually fought in during the Civil War. I went to some living history events before I picked a unit to fall in with and observed them. I read on thier requirments that they demand that people equip themselves with 1861 Springfields and Enfields which would not have been in the table of equipment for those regiments until the late war period. These same said folks will participate in living history events at Pea Ridge and Prairie Grove and they look as out of place as would 4th Virginia Infantry or Barksdale's Mississippi Brigade at those events.

I have been throwing around the idea amongst my collegues in the academic community about writing a book that details the organization and equipment of the units on both sides of the conflict that were involved in actions in Missouri, Arkansas, Oklahoma, and Louisiana. I believe that a book of that subject matter would be a good work to complete and would be very beneficial to those that participate in our hobby.

[fahtz]

Matthew,
I want to clear up the fact that my above comments refer ONLY to the boys in the Missouri State Guard, as that is where the majority of my current research falls.

[mslaird]

Matthew,
I want to clear up the fact that my above comments refer ONLY to the boys in the Missouri State Guard, as that is where the majority of my current research falls.

I understand,

Have you seen any documentation about the usage of the Lorenze amongst the ranks of the MSG? I would think that it would be post Wilson's Creek. This is something that has perplexed me since I found out about that over the summer.

[fahtz]

The accounts are pretty good about labeling other types of muskets (other than the US Arsenal line). I have seen nothing to show the MSG had access to the Lorenz. The safest bet for MSG impressions is still the civilian weapon.

[mslaird]

I was puttering around the Track of the Wolf site and they have a fairly good selection at the moment, which is not always the case, at least for affordable firearms. I would be reluctant to take a 2000.00 plus flintlock work of art out in the field too much. Thanks again for your advice.

[ohpkirk]

As stated by others, Track of the Wolf does have a nice selection, but because of their commission/mark up the prices are a little much.

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f56/codymobley/plains1.jpg

Here is an original 1830's plains rifle converted from flint to percussion in the 1850's that I have purchased for $335.00. You just have to look around to find some nice ones for a good price.

[fahtz]

I myself am picking up an original shotgun from a local antiques mall for a fraction of what the reproductions cost, and it is actually correct for field use.

[mslaird]

That is one mighty fine looking rifle Mr. Mobley. Thanks for the picture.

I have been eyeballing the boxlock that they have listed at the moment. Its definately different.

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/(S(04iazm45axotbwuomyqi4vaj))/categories/partDetail.aspx?catId=12&subId=83&styleId=290&partNum=AAC-726

They also have a couple of half stock .54 caliber rifles that are under $800.00. I am always hopeful for a flint fowling piece, though.