1858 Dress Hat, which supplier?

[PvtRJBrown]

Greetings all,

I just thought that I would post on here and get some oppinions on a purchase that I hope to make soon. Ever since I started reenacting, I've always worn a forage cap and, well, nothing else. Since I would like to apply a more western look to myself (As my unit fought in the western theater) I've decided to make a purchase of a 1858 dress hat. My only stale point in the process is, where to buy from. Now as I've said, I've only used a forage cap, But I have looked at Tim Bender 58' dress hats. 2 of my pards own them, and they really seem nice. Look like good buys. Now, I know that Dirty Billy also makes 58' dress hats as well. I've never looked at one in person, but I have seen them on his website. Now heres my question I ask of you: which would be a better buy. Are there any of you that use a Dirty Billy 58' dress hat and would be able to tell me more about it? And for those of you who know both hats, could you compare & contrast the 2 for me? Thank you kindly and I hope this helps me out with my purchase decision.

[JerseySkilletLicker]

Tim Bender period.

[westcoastcampaigner]

Great guy, great service, great hats...Bender!

Josh Sawyer
Liberty Rifles
Hardtack Society

[RudyN]

I have a 1858 Dress Hat from Tim Bender and all I can say is GREAT! In addition he is great to talk with.

[TKlas]

Roy,

Tim Bender's Pattern of 1858 dress hat is an excellent replica that I would highly recommend. Tim's replica is based off of the Philander B. Wright dress hat in the holdings of the Wisconsin Veterans Museum. Correct fur felt (not wool felt), black grosgrain ribbon, double row brim stitching at 4 stitches per inch, oilcloth crown label, three inch brim, 5.5 inch crown height, and black 2.5 inch leather sweatband as per original specimens.

In the units I deal with we have one vendor for this item - Tim Bender.

I own two enlisted dress hats by Tim and an officer’s dress hat that are of excellent quality. In fact, my first dress hat from Tim is going on its ninth year (1999) and still holds up mighty well.

And as stated, one of the nicest people you will deal with as a vendor!

Good luck,

Tom

[J.H.Berger]

What about Dirty Billy's? His M1858 hat has the more cylindrical crown shape you see so often in original pictures.

[fedhead]

Tim Bender, you can't get better it is a fantastic facsimile. Also all the hats i own that are made by him are great hats to wear , they wear like originals .

[tater]

Dirty Billy is good, but I would go with Tim on this one.

[unclefrank]

Tim Bender's is the only place I would buy a hat (except a forage or kepi). ;)

[CYoungJSU]

I must concur. I have a '58 made by Tim and have been wearing it for years. In fact, I have it on in my avatar. It's a little modified in my picture thanks to Mr. Lee White one summer at Chickamauga. You cannot go wrong with one of his hats!! Highly Recommended and a great guy to work with!

Chris

[Shockoe Hill Cats]

Tim Bender period.

I too, have one myself and was very pleased with his fine work.

In lieu of everyone else exclaiming, "Yes, yes! I have one too!", I'd recommend reading further on what makes a good Army-issue Hardee Hat. And the Mudsill have written an excellent one: http://www.33wis.com/articles/articles.htm

Slainté!

[LibertyHallVols]

What about Dirty Billy's? His M1858 hat has the more cylindrical crown shape you see so often in original pictures.

Valid question. I'd be interested in hearing from some folks who have seen/own one of his hats.

IMHO, the answer to the "How's Dirty Billy's Hardee hat?" is not "Bender's rocks!"

Thanks!

[J.H.Berger]

Valid question. I'd be interested in hearing from some folks who have seen/own one of his hats.

IMHO, the answer to the "How's Dirty Billy's Hardee hat?" is not "Bender's rocks!"

Thanks!



Agreed!who can tell us anything about both hats ion comparison with examined originals perhaps??

[Ken]

Valid question. I'd be interested in hearing from some folks who have seen/own one of his hats.

IMHO, the answer to the "How's Dirty Billy's Hardee hat?" is not "Bender's rocks!"

Thanks!

John,

Would second that. Bender is a nice guy to be sure but that doesn't answer the question asked. Comparing the two hats vs. the period specs is the way to go. I can tell you both hats stand up over time pretty well. There is a guy I know who has a DB hardee thats got to be over 10 years old and it's still going strong.

[Ross L. Lamoreaux]

O.K., I'll jump into the fire on this one, as the owner of hats from both of these purveyors of fine goods. Both compare favorably to the two originals I've been able to look at in detail (one at a relics shop outside the Stone's River Battlefield and one at a museum that escapes me at this time). Both have that size, shape, and interior features such as crown label and sweatband, and both have the correct stitching around the brim and right width ribbon around the crown. The features that set both apart are probably minor in the scheme of things. The Bender dress cap has held its shape a little better after 4 years with little maintenance and the ribbon around the crown is a better grade of grosgrain ribbon. The Dirty Billy has served me for well for over 8 years in the field with no malfunctions, the crown label and stiffener are still holding on to a few inches of glue in the top of the crown, the brim is still firm, and despite a few beatings in the field, it gets its shape back rather quickly with a decent steaming. In short, both are fine hats, both compare favorably to originals, and aside from some aestetics, both a good pick. I wear my DB more in the field and the Bender for parade or dress occasions, and I probably have more sentimental rather than historical value in the DB.

[LibertyHallVols]

That's the kinda of info we need! Thanks, Ross!!!

[PvtRJBrown]

Wow guys!
This has really been a big help in my decision. Judging by the very helpful reply from Mr. Lamoreaux and the countless good comments I've heard from everyone on Mr. Bender's quality, I believe that I'm going to go with a Bender 58' Dress Hat. Than you all for your help, I always knew I could count on this forum to help me out with any questions i needed answered!

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

Not much to add to the pile.
I have one of each, and agree with what has been said.
In terms of druthers, I prefer the Bender version, only for the reason that it is not as thick of felt. However, recalling felt measurements of three originals... .095, .082, and .059 inches such is a "period variation" and just a preference on my part.
Having said that, I seem to wear the Dirty Billy one the most. ;)

Curt

[J.H.Berger]

O.K., I'll jump into the fire on this one, as the owner of hats from both of these purveyors of fine goods. Both compare favorably to the two originals I've been able to look at in detail (one at a relics shop outside the Stone's River Battlefield and one at a museum that escapes me at this time). Both have that size, shape, and interior features such as crown label and sweatband, and both have the correct stitching around the brim and right width ribbon around the crown. The features that set both apart are probably minor in the scheme of things. The Bender dress cap has held its shape a little better after 4 years with little maintenance and the ribbon around the crown is a better grade of grosgrain ribbon. The Dirty Billy has served me for well for over 8 years in the field with no malfunctions, the crown label and stiffener are still holding on to a few inches of glue in the top of the crown, the brim is still firm, and despite a few beatings in the field, it gets its shape back rather quickly with a decent steaming. In short, both are fine hats, both compare favorably to originals, and aside from some aestetics, both a good pick. I wear my DB more in the field and the Bender for parade or dress occasions, and I probably have more sentimental rather than historical value in the DB.

Thank you Ross! That was very helpful!!

[Ken]

That's the kinda of info we need! Thanks, Ross!!!

Second that. Thanks Ross!!

[Thomas Alleman]

I saw bender's Hardee in G-burg in like 99 and he was selling them at a table in the hotel across from the Gingerbread Man, I was like nice hat but I just bought a billy hat that day. I have had billy reblocked it once and getting it back from his was not small feat. I left it at his shop when I was in G-burg. I was going to pick it up at his shop and told him when I was going to be there but well it was not done. So he said he would mail it to me, OK fine. Then I ask did you send it? Well I need shipping cost, OK why did you not tell me that when I was there, anyway got the hat, it was OK. Now though it has fallen to its old shape and I just think it is not going take a reblocking again. The label is falling out and the hat is just sinking. I am not saying that his hats are bad, he has some nice ones but this is just my encounter with him. He makes good stuff, but a bit pricey for me.

[Ross L. Lamoreaux]

The thing about the Hardee hat is that it was designed to be a dress hat, usually stored in a hatbox or trunk when not in use. When worn in the field, it is inevitable that it will start to slouch up , and the first things to go are the crown label, the stiffening on the visor, and the body of the hat will cave in at the crown. Its asking alot of that kind of hat to stay in perfect shape after more than a few uses in the field. As for Billy's customer service, well.....He can be pretty abrasive, sometimes crotchety, a trace strange, but I attribute it to his "artist's mentality" and all of that hat glue over the years!

[mslaird]

I have been following this thread fairly close because I would love to get a dress hat myself. I have a pretty good idea now about Tim Bender and Dirty Billy's but what about Clearwater? Their other hats are well spoken of how about their Hardee hat?

[Ross L. Lamoreaux]

To my knowledge, Clearwater Hats doesn't sell a military dress hat (Hardee hat). I know they make some pretty decent civilian hats. If I'm wrong, someone please correct me.

[mslaird]

I saw one listed on thier web catalogue. They list an officer's model and an enlisted one. I just ordered a tall beehive from them and I was wondering about the Hardee hat they make. As far as customer service goes, they seemed pretty decent on the phone.

[BorderRuffian]

Sir,

I have a low crown beehive by Clearwater,I was happy with it when I acquired it a few years back.The wait though was months.I contacted Tim Bender for a enlisted Hardee and had it in my hands a little over a week from the day I made the phone call to him earlier this year.I couldn't ask for better customer service!

[mslaird]

I have heard a lot about Mr. Bender. I think I might have to order a hat from him after I make a decision about which type I would like. (You can't have too many good hats). Thanks for the info on Clearwater's Hardee hat. When I ordered my hat from them last week, they asked me if I needed it quickly. I told them that I wasn't in a terrible hurry as some of my accoutrements will not be ready until February. They gave me a production time of approximately twelve weeks. I just figured that was about normal for a wait time to get a hat made.

[robwall1861]

I have a clearwater mosby that I got a few years back for christmas (see my aviator pic) and have been very pleased with it quality, etc wise. I recently purchased a Bender Flat Top Crown from someone on the forum and the only complaint I have about that is the stiffener in the crown of the hat (cardboard (?)) hurts the top of my head after a bit, any suggestions on how to soften the top of the hat?

As for Dirty Billy, I bought a cheap hat ($30) of his at a reenactment I went to as a spectator in '97. Then I wore the same hat as a reenactor to Grant vs. Lee in '99 and brought it back to him to have the lining and sweatband upgraded. A two week wait turned into months and I had to write a lette to him to get a phone call back after getting no response on phone calls. To his credit though, when I brought the hat to him at an event in 2001 to have the stitching fixed, he did it on site and I got it back within a few minutes.

Robin

PS: Any help with that Bender hat, (see above), would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

[Parault]

I have two clearwater hats with no complaints. Had both for several years,and they're both holding up extremely well.

[Forquer]

Matthew -

Clearwater makes a good product and it comes with a good guarantee. I own one of their low crown top hats and am well pleased with it.

Something about the appearance of their Hardee just doesn't look right, however. I don't know if they fashioned it directly from surviving examples, or came up with a close approximation. It just doesn't seem to have the "crispness" and line of the Bender version which, to me, appears to most resemble what you see in images.

[mslaird]

Will Mr. Bender produce the 1858 with the appointments installed on it? I did not see anything on his webpage that states whether he does or not. I would like to have a completely finished one as well as an unfinished one.

[redleggeddevil]

I have two Bender dress hats-- one I bought new, the other used. The new one is so pretty that I am reluctant to take it in the field. The used one is...used. In fact, it has collapsed inwards so that it looks like the old porkpie hat that Ed Norton used to wear on "The Honeymooners".

I love that hat!

[Forquer]

Matthew -

If by "appointments" you're referring to the Jefferson Eagle, infantry bugle, ostrich feather, and hat cord, then the answer is no. Tim's come with the brim stitching and ribbon.

[mslaird]

I appreciate the info Mr. Forquer, his hats do look extremely nice. I put in a requisition request out to the family (Christmas list) If no one decides to take pity on me this holiday season, I will have to buy one. Thanks again.

On the subject of hats, I just ordered a tall beehive from Clearwater and I was wondering if anyone had one, what they think about it, and if they have any pictures of them wearing it so I can see what it looks like other than the pictures Clearwater has.

[Benedict]

I recently had the chance to compare my Dirty Billy dress hat to one made by Tim Bender. Interestingly, the shellac on the interior was obviously visible on the one made by Mr. Bender, while there was none visible in my DB one. Does anybody have any idea why?

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

"I recently had the chance to compare my Dirty Billy dress hat to one made by Tim Bender. Interestingly, the shellac on the interior was obviously visible on the one made by Mr. Bender, while there was none visible in my DB one. Does anybody have any idea why?"

Nope...

I have two DB, an "1858" and an "1861." And, one Bender.

There is no evidence of excess shellac or for that matter any shellac (used for stiffening the felt) anywhere on any of the three.

I did find that the DB "1858" had a thick 1/2 inch cardboard-like disk under the oil cloth crown label that had to be removed when I tried to telescope the crown.

Curt

[prestontoprail]

Well with all of this talk of keeping dress hats all nice, pretty and new....I thought I'd throw in some good ole photos to show us how these things turned out in the service.

http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j178/darthpreston/westernfed16.jpg
http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j178/darthpreston/westernfed15.jpg
http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j178/darthpreston/westernfed12.jpg
http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j178/darthpreston/westernfed10.jpg
http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j178/darthpreston/westernfed9.jpg
http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j178/darthpreston/westernfed5.jpg
http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j178/darthpreston/sherman3.jpg

As you can see here, and in other photo specimens, telescoping the crown in actually gives the hat a whole new definition while simulating a common civilian style look.
http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j178/darthpreston/44th3.jpg
http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j178/darthpreston/westernfed1.jpg
http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j178/darthpreston/westernfed2.jpg

[prestontoprail]

Although I'd keep in mind that the first few set of photos are from an artillery unit during the Atlanta campaign. Although I see the "dip" in the front and back of dress hats in random photos, it seems more predominant with the artillery units in those specific shots. I assume it is because they are sitting in the same place all day and that "place" is right in the blistering Georgia sunlight. I might have done the same.

[WpnsMan]

Has anyone dealt with Clearwater Hats recently?

I have tried to email them and the address listed on their website was "undeliverable". I have also tried to call their "new" phone number numerous times and get the "unavailable at this time" message from their provider. This in addition to the older dates listed on their website are NOT confidence inspiring. Basically I would like to get a warm fuzzy feeling from anyone who has purchased from them recently before I send them my hard earned greenbacks via mailorder. I would also be interested in hearing about their current wait times.

[Kace]

Not to beat a dead horse but Mr. Bender is the one and only for a Hardee or any civilian slouch hat in my opinion. On top of well researched hats he provides some of the best customer service around which counts a lot in my book.

Kace

[J.H.Berger]

Well I cannot speak for Mr Bender yet, but my experience with Dirty Billy was sobering.
I have ordered 10 issue hats from them for my group. Of the 10 hats 4 were of the wrong size! I received another hat in my size pretty quickly ( before I could issue the others only to find out that 3 more were of the wrong size)but alas this hat was not size 56 cm but 57cm and they had simply put a black piece of cardboard behind the sweat band! Which I recognized after a little time though.Then one hat had a tear in the corner of the crown which was glued tight and was not visible at first but after some wear became apparent.
Perhaps they simply thought: " well Germany is far away, they will not return them anyway", which we did not of course due to the ghigh shjipping cost.
The ribbon is tack stitched to the felt by nylon which does not add to its authenticity.

So, I will not mail order hats fromDB again! They do have nice hats but you simply have to hold them in your hand and examine them closely.

Some of us will order a hat from ender soon. So lets find out, his reputation is good!

[csabugler]

I have an old DB kepi that is first rate and 2 new Benders, one Hardee and one Bell Crown. Both are fine quality. I over measured the Crown and it came it too large so I just put a thin strip of cloth behind the band. I got nervous and ordered the Hardee a bit too small.
The point of this is that as I am steaming the H to fit I find that when tight the front and rear draw down a couple degrees and the sides draw up. A distinct cowboy flare, which I do not want. I've e-mailed Tim , and he says that was a very common situation. The hat blanks are based on a more round head, and if you have a more oval shape cranium like me then the natural physics will draw the brim just like mine is doing.
If you order a hat from Tim Bender, when he asks if you have a more round or oval shaped head, I suggest you determine that with him before you order.
No complaints about any of the hats,just sharing info. He is only as good as the data you provide.

[Brian Baird]

Preston,
With all the rain during the Atlanta campaign, maybe the hats just dried that way.
Brian Baird

[fire_zouave]

Does Dirty Billy use rabbit fur felt like many of the originals? I was always under the impression that the only two people who sold Army hats made of fur felt were Hank Kluin and Tim Bender.

[Benedict]

The ribbon is tack stitched to the felt by nylon which does not add to its authenticity

You're kidding, right?? Can't believe this. Aside from the fact that the bow on my hat is not tied at all. ...

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

Round Heads and Long Ovals...

I would recommend "testing" one's head first. Using some sheet cardboard, or some cardboard from a box, or even some thicker "poster board:"

Cut out a piece, and then cut out a "hole" by trial and error fitting so that you can wear the piece of cardboard like your hat.

Hats, NUG, are made round, and then must be worn (no pun intended) or formed to the shape of the wearer's true head shape in spite, or depsite, the circumference.

More folks actually have "egg heads" than would like to admit to it. :)

However, as with an reproduction clothing, there is always the question or choice of dealing with clothing "as issued" or as with say shoes and boots having the more modern ability to have custom-work done to better suit or match our actual "errant morphologies."

I have five or six Clearwater hats I use for civilian, as well as 1870's/1880's wear.

Curt

[Haversack]

I have a DB Hardee that I bought at the Relic Show in Dalton,GA and I have a Tim Bender Mosby Hat that I ordered through the mail.I like my DB but comparing it to my friends Bender Hardee,the Bender is nicer.My label is falling out already and I just bought it a week ago!My Bender took approximately the time he said it would to reach me and it is of the highest quality.I would agree that Billy has very nice hats,but I would only deal with him in person.Just my 2 cents.