Finding the maker of a de-farbed rifle

[MLovejoy]

I have a '61 Springfield which had been de-farbed by a previous owner. Is there any way to tell who the manufacturer might be (Armi or Euro) by looking at the serial number (it's on the underside of the barrel)? Or would there be any maker's markings I should look for? This rifle is probably 20 years old. I've had it for 10, and I have no idea how long the previous owner held it for. I can't ask him because he's pretty disappeared off the face of the earth, and he had so many fire arms he probably won't remember. I tried the search function to not much avail. The reason I ask is because I would like to replace a few parts in on the lock and I'd like to get the right part, unless of course it doesn't matter what manufacturer's part I get. I'd appreciate any help on this.

[Widow Windship]

Call S&S Firearms and ask them, they can tell you by the serial number....

[Third Mainer]

If you post a picture of the inside of the lock, I, or someone else, could probably tell you the maker. There are subtle differences between them.
Mike Pearson

[MLovejoy]

Micheal,

Attached are a couple links to the inside of my lock. If you, or any one else, can determine the maker by these photos I would greatly appreciate it.

Thanks,

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k20/r00s7er/DSCF3149.jpg

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k20/r00s7er/DSCF3152.jpg

[Third Mainer]

Looks to me to be an old Armi-Sport, going by the thickness of the lockplate. Do you have any pics of the front?
Mike Pearson

[Craig L Barry]

Better question, how does it fit in the lock mortise? The Armi Sport lock will be flush with the lock mortise. The Armi Sport is usually lock internals are usually marked "AC" inside a circle (for Armi Chiappa). The pics are not the best, but this looks like a Euroarms lock to me.

[MLovejoy]

Not at the time being. I'll get some after work and post them up, probably around 6ish.

[MLovejoy]

Michael,

Here are a few more photos for you to ponder. If there are any other ones you want let me know.


http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k20/r00s7er/DSCF3171.jpg

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k20/r00s7er/DSCF3170.jpg

[Rear Guard]

Your lockplate markings look very much like what my older 1863 Springfield by Dixie Gun Works (Maruko maker) replica had on it. The style of lettering for the date, and the eagle stamping look identical.

[Craig L Barry]

Euroarms. The Miroku lock has different size lettering an a fat turkey buzzard eagle. Plus the tumbler link drops down below the bottom of the lock plate on the Mirokus necessitating that you dig out a well in the lock mortise to accomodate it (when building the kit). The scalloped edge on this lock plate suggests this is an old Euroarms lock.

Not positive but it most resembles a really old Euroarms lock. The good news is, some of the parts should interchange with original US 1861 parts.

[MLovejoy]

I know I'm no Matthew Brady, but I'll try to get some clearer pictures (finally figured out to get some better shots with my camera). I think I understand what you mean about the lock mortise. I'll snap a few pics after work with the lock in the stock. I'm looking to replace the tumbler; would an original one be better than a repro?

[Third Mainer]

I don't know Craig, the lockplate markings do look Identical to a Miroku, as does the stamping, otherwise I'd say Euroarms from all the pictures together. My ancient Armi-Sport (20 yrs plus) has not a single AC mark on the other hand. Either way I'd say this is a Miroku. Let me see if I can get a pic up a little later and we'll see.
Mike Pearson

[Third Mainer]

Just compared the pictures to my Miroku, side by side and came up with a perfect match, eagle, lettering and all. Although mine has Navy Arms stamped all over, I'm connfident this is a Japanese made 61. You are going to have to ask Mr. Barry as to whether original parts fit, as he has significantly more experience on this than I ( he, in fact wrote the book, one of the finest of its kind). Good luck finding a tumbler, my only suggestion is to give Dixie a call.
Mike Pearson

[MLovejoy]

I finally got some good pictures for you guys to look at. As you can see in the one picture, the half cock is extremely small, hence my reasoning for wanting a new tumbler that can make a wider. Take a look and let me know what you think. All of your help so far has been great.

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k20/r00s7er/DSCF3198.jpg

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k20/r00s7er/DSCF3197.jpg

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k20/r00s7er/DSCF3196.jpg

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k20/r00s7er/DSCF3190.jpg

On a side note - if anyone can tell me how to post fingernail shots that'd be great. i haven't been able to figure that one out yet.

[Craig L Barry]

I could be mistaken. The stampings will change slightly over time as various stamps and dies wear out. Here are the acid test(s): look at the clean out screw, butt plate and the ramrod. Does the clean out screw seem rounded and protude slightly from the end of the bolster or is flat flush? Does the butt plate have rounded edges or is like a punched out investment cast part? Lastly, when you remove the barrel does the stock have a ramrod spoon? Is the ramrod swell pronounced allowing the friction against the front band and ramrod channel to hold it in place (like an original)? If so, it is a Miroku. If it has a flush clean out screw, a ramrod spoon and a narrower two piece ramrod, it is a Euroarms. The position at half cock looks very similar to the Euroarms, and the Mirokus have a half cock position about 3/4" off the cone.

The last pic gives it away, the clean out screw is rounded and protudes slightly so this is a Miroku US 1861 lock plate. The internal parts however, do not resemble the Mirokus I have worked on or am familiar with. For example, the point of connection between the tumbler link and the mainspring at the release position does not seem to extend below the level of the lock plate as the others all have. Perhaps the parts are not all Miroku at least probably not the tumbler? This could be good because Miroku parts may be a problem since they have not been made in many years. Dixie Gun Works would be the best bet, if any still exist.

At some point in the history of this piece, it is very possible some parts may have been replaced with Euroarms parts. It looks enough like it to me that I would try a Euroarms tumbler first.

[Third Mainer]

Dixie still lists Miroku parts, but I don't believe that they still have any tumblers. I am still constantly amazed at how different the same guns, from the same manufacturers can be. Those internals sure look different from mine.
Mike Pearson

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

Perhaps not so surprisingly, the same can be said of Euroarms and Armi Sport over the years-.
Currently, I am having trouble finding mainsprings for mid 1980's Euroarms' Enfields.
And I just noticed on a "James River Armory Enfield" that the mainspring bolster was just a screw head.
At any rate, while I have never counted these "production changes" over the past three decades, I might guess there are three or four (or more) "versions" of EA and AS Enfields and Springfields.
A few years ago I did some work on what I thought was an AS M1861 Springfield.. that had a thin stamped sheet metal butt plate, and sheet metal barrel bands bent to shape and welded to make a closed "loop."

Curt

[Craig L Barry]

Curt

If you have a chance, pull the lock on that US 1861 Miroku you have and compare the lock internals to the pictures posted here. Do you see what I mean about the overall appearance and the tumbler link, etc? It is almost like the outside of the lock plate is from a different gun than the inside (internal parts)...weird. It may take some fitting, but this lock should be fixable with parts that are "close" to the same. I once fit an original SN & WTC contract lock into a Miroku US 1861 for the fun of it. It took only minor fitting and worked well. I did this so I could use the gun while I had the Miroku lock plate re-stamped. This is another possibility of course, refitting the gun with a new lock. After twenty years the other internals are probably in need of replacement as well. Just a thought.

As far as the 80s vintage Euroarms Enfields (didn't those have brass barrel bands?) wouldn't the mainspring be the same as the P-H from which EoA copied their lock?

[Third Mainer]

Looking at the internals here, some are color case, some plated (?!) and the mainspring looks hand forged. The othe really distinctive characteristic of the Mirokus are the teeny tiny sear and sear spring screws. Curt, that Armi Sport sounds a lot like my old one, ended up cutting the bands and silver soldering them, they were WAY oversize.
Mike Pearson

[Rear Guard]

On my older 1863 Dixie Miroku, I replaced the lock and hammer with an original and it fit right on with only a minor amount of wood shaving and is a perfect fit to the bolster. Hammer is just slightly off center when it strikes the cone, but this doesn't seem to effect it's performance one bit. So you might consider an original lock.

[MLovejoy]

Gentlemen I thank all of you for your help with this. I do want to agree that this is a Miroku based on the descriptions Craig gave about clean out screw, rammer, etc. It also just hit me that the original owner's son also used a Miroku back in the day, which makes me think that this is the same. I wouldn't be surprised that some parts in there now are of different manufacturers because this rifle was a rusty POS when I first got it. I will try to contact Dixie about any Miroku parts. If they do not happen to have them, would contacting Lodgewood or S&S Firearms be the next logical step? I know they have many different parts, but would theirs fit in here?

[Rear Guard]

I replaced the cone on my 1863 Miruko with one for an Armisport and it fit. I also replaced a screw inside the mechanism with a metric allen head for a temporary fix and that worked fine too. I can't speak for the parts being the same as the italian repros, but hey might be able to work. I recommend you send the entire lock to Lodgewood and I am pretty sure they will be able to repair it with something they have on hand.

[Craig L Barry]

Yes, the threads on the cone are the same 8 x 1 mm, but you can not presume the other Armi Sport parts will interchange. The metal A-S uses is mild steel and too soft for lock parts in my opinion. If you have to fit Springfield parts the order of preference would be original parts then Euroarms repro parts.