House Bill:Marking Requirements for Reproduction Civil War Items

[echamp6165]

I just saw this on the Horsesoldier website, has anyone seen this yet?

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c110:H.R.4125:

[Johnny Lloyd]

Glad I got my kit before this garbage takes effect...

I don't support this because it ruins the attempt (art, if you will) at authentic reproductions- hence ruins our end of the hobby.

But I DO support further legislation that makes it a bigger crime to sell reproductions as originals- just look at Ebay's horror show of "original" items.

There is a happy-medium here- it's called full-provenance of an item by a qualified antiques appraiser and harsh penalties for those that market repros as originals.

Off my soapbox...

-Johnny

[GWHall]

"To amend the Hobby Protection Act to require that imitation Civil War items be clearly marked as copies."

"b) Imitation Civil War Item Defined- Section 7 of the Hobby Protection Act (15 U.S.C. 2106) is amended by adding at the end the following:

`(8) The term `imitation Civil War item' means an item which purports to be, but in fact is not, an original Civil War item, or which is a reproduction, copy, facsimile, or counterfeit of an original Civil War item."

My feeling is this law is to give specific legal backing to make forging antiques illegal. Not to ruin your kewl sack coat or belt. Anyway, I support modern marks discretely put on reproduction items to prevent future owners using them in a fradulent way or being fooled in 10 or 20 years.

[Johnny Lloyd]

Andy-

You're right... the "intent" of the law is to prevent fraud obviously...

But who knows how far the authorities will take it if there is the ability to do so?

The key is, to make the law specific-enough to prevent fraud and allow those that make authentic reproductions to practice their craft properly.

-Johnny

[OldKingCrow]

Bully for the honorable representative from the Old Dominion for his wise and judicious use of the public coffers and process.

We all know this will stop antique forgers dead in their tracks.

Seeing how it is sitting with the Energy and Commerce Committee maybe when you’re done hammering out this gem of national importance you might get to work on that $3.25 a gallon issue.

[Johnny Lloyd]

"Bully for the honorable representative from the Old Dominion for his wise and judicious use of the public coffers and process."

Yeah, I was SO worried about the fakes in the antiques market versus the insane price of gas, global warming, or terrorism...

Nope, not worried about that stuff compared to this at all...

Our Congress really makes a positive difference in our lives on this one... :confused:

"Stop the insanity..."

:rolleyes: -Johnny

[mslaird]

...Seeing how it is sitting with the Energy and Commerce Committee maybe when you’re done hammering out this gem of national importance you might get to work on that $3.25 a gallon issue.

Exactly. Right on.

I am absolutely sick to death of the folks that are selling fraudulent "original" items on the auction sites. It goes fairly beyond our hobby as well and the frauds are costing many an unwarry or ingnorant buyer into the thousands which is definitely felony territory. But there are many a state with statutes and codes which include "Theft by Deception" and the verbage in those statutes lends them to apply in such cases. This smacks of another legislative instance of not enforcing laws that already exist and making more laws to convolute the issue even further.

[Vicksburg Dave]

Given Mr. Moran's location, it sounds like someone close to him got burned. While he is at it maybe he could craft legislation curtailing our importation of fake goods from China, or maybe force ebay to actually enforce its rules about fakes, instead of ignoring people when they report them.
It's a stupid law. The forgers are already breaking the law, why would the passage of another law discourage them. Unless it is the death penalty, or maybe getting a hand chopped off, it won't deter them.

[reddcorp]

By all means, let's allow the federal government control over one more aspect of our lives. We all know how well the feds do with most everything they get involved in..spending our money, regulating our lives, etc.
We should not expect the government to protect us from everything...to do so takes away the freedoms we cherish so. Life is a risk, be careful.
As to CW reproductions/authentic articles....caveat emptor.

A.Redd

[sepoy1857]

Don't they have anything better to do with their time? They are worried about your sack coat and if it is properly marked as a repro??? Yeah forget about crime, drugs, illegal immigration, and terrorists...This qualifies as the most ridiculous item of the day!

[mslaird]

If not the most ridiculous it is definitely in the top five. This is why we should pay more attention to the folks we continually elect into the house and senate. They are the people who make our laws. Yet, the folks do not seem to care who thier senator or representative is or how these people are spending thier tax dollars while they debate nonsense in committee. It would astound you to know how many people do not even know thier senator or representative's names or affiliations if you ask them.

[unclefrank]

As a people, we don't get the government we wish for, but the one we deserve. Because of our ignorent and lazy behavior, we have staffed Wahington with self serving rascals, and outright morons, with a sprinkling of honest "do gooder" types. :baring_te

[mslaird]

As a people, we don't get the government we wish for, but the one we deserve. Because of our ignorent and lazy behavior, we have staffed Wahington with self serving rascals, and outright morons, with a sprinkling of honest "do gooder" types. :baring_te

Once again, right on sir.

[PanzerJager]

Reading over the proposed amendment it appears that whoever wrote this did so probably with the most legitimate intentions, but as with many other laws didn’t think it through entirely. The people who make and deal in fakes are going to continue to do so regardless of this law as long as there are buyers who are willing to hand over their hard earned dollar. I think ultimately the responsibility comes down to the collector/buyer to know what he is purchasing before he or she willingly parts with their money. It is scary in the collector world how many people don’t know, study and familiarize themselves with the current reproductions, you would think with the money some of these people invest they would but to often I have seen an entire months pay spent on a fake. A good example of this was the Richmond relic show this summer, if anyone checked out the world war 2 militaria side of the show there was a variety of reenactment stuff being pawned off as the real thing. I can’t tell you how many fake German tunics I saw, being a reenactor I was able to spot this stuff 50 feet away. The same thing is true when it comes to high end civil reproductions, saw plenty of fakes on the civil war side of the show as well. We buy this stuff as repro and when we sell them second hand we don’t know what the next person is going to do with it or the person he sells it to, that’s why collectors need to study the fakes and reproductions as they just get better and better all the time. There is always going to be a “cottage” industry of fakers out there who get better and more clever with their techniques, some of which are down right scary. An amendment like this I fear will do little if anything to stop fakes as there is always going to be a market.

Regards,

[Dreamer42]

I agree with other posts in that I feel the government has better thangs to do. However, there's more to it than that. When I step back an look at this what angers me more is that this type of thing has no end. It's a question of electing leaders who can't be satisfied until everything is controlled, regulated or taxed. I'd be willing to bet that there's money in someone's pockets at the end of this legislation. I recall that there are provisions in our founding documents limiting what the government can and can't do. Gradually, over the years, not just states, but individual people have fewer liberties. Unclefrank has the right idea. The Constitution and Bill of Rights can't keep us from being fools with a law.

- Jay Reid
Dreamer42

[OldKingCrow]

Says me to thee...


"You can have my unmarked Pakistani repop Nashville Plow Works CS Saber when you pry it from my dead hands......"

Chris Rideout

[toptimlrd]

We were discussing this the other day on the Common Ground. There has to be some amount of caveat emptr when buying originals. If I am going to buy an original item, I am going to do my homework, check the provenance, and ikely get it lookd at by an expert in the item in question; I'm sure not buying it off e-bay. I liken this to another passion of mine...muscle cars. There are a lot of Chevelle Malibus running around wih 454 engines and SS badging that could easily pass for an original (and often do). Will that be the next step, emblazoning such a car with "clone" down the side?

[Campjacksonboy]

Sounds like another example of something that will come up in 50 years when we talk about how our freedoms were slowly legislated and litigated away. If we are even allowed to have such a conversation.

So, will there be gear police showing up at our events to enforce the law?
Maybe we get big stamps on our cartridge boxes and hats marking them cleary "Reproduction."
Maybe their efforts would be better suited making a law that requires these lawmakers to get their own stamp. I suggest one that says, "STUPID." I would like to make the motion that it be placed on their forehead.

Frank Aufmuth

[JDolan]

Frank,

Completely agree with you. I was incensed enough by this affront to the hobby that I actually did something I've never done. Yep...I sent a letter out ot my representative telling him just how stupid and useless this thing is, and that if they really want to crack down on it, actually crack down on the sellers of that "original" crap, not those that make it, or those of us that are using it for other purposes, be it entertainment, education, or just because we like wearing the stuff.

Might I even go so far as to suggest we figure who is on this Energy and COmmerce Committee and send -them- letters all expressing our disappointment that this is considered a top priority to them compared to other issues, as well as all of the above that we've gone over?

I know that, at the least, I'm probably going to do as much, to at least say that, should this pass, we at least did something to try and talk some sense into them instead of letting htem just tread all over the hobby for the simple sake of seeing that some idiots can't pawn off a repro as an original.

[Secesh]

A "STUPID" stamp works for me!

[Dreamer42]

Hey, then we could sell T-shirts that have the pointing finger..."I'm with Stupid" so all their congressional cronies can have them, too.

I'm ready to vote for a congressman who runs on NOT doing anything.

- Jay Reid
Dreamer42

[Guy Gane III]

Reading about how the Govt does this, makes me want to do more Reb impressions. ;) I feel that this is, yet, another attempt to turn us into nice little nazis...um I mean.... Americans.

However, if someone is dumb enough to not know the difference between OG and Fake.... then you deserve to be burned. There are lots of people who have no business buying original stuff.

I feel like Indiana Jones when I come across stuff and think... "THIS BELONGS IN A MUSEUM!!!" :angry_smi

[DougCooper]

Given Mr. Moran's location, it sounds like someone close to him got burned. While he is at it maybe he could craft legislation curtailing our importation of fake goods from China, or maybe force ebay to actually enforce its rules about fakes, instead of ignoring people when they report them.
It's a stupid law. The forgers are already breaking the law, why would the passage of another law discourage them. Unless it is the death penalty, or maybe getting a hand chopped off, it won't deter them.

Moran is a big CW preservation supporter and history buff if I remember, and a real friend. He probably did this as a favor to someone who thought it of vital national interest. No way will it be passed - not to worry. The fact that it mentions only Civil War items is hysterical.

[Dreamer42]

Guy Gane III, reading your's made me think about other aspects of similar hobbies, not just CW. I have been collecting WWII and WWI items since 1983. The CW "world" is not the only repop field affected by fakers. Some WWII repop stuff looks "okay" from 10 feet away, but upon further inspection one can easily detect the flaws - mostly in the material used and stitching and thread - OMG! I AM a stitch Nazi after all!!!
So, where will it stop? WWII repro gear? What about items on display like the clothing and accoutrements at the Louis and Clark Museum outside St. Louis? Insane!
It all happens a little at a time.

- Jay Reid
Dreamer42
9th Texas
Franklin 04, BGR 07

[Ken Knopp]

Moderators, I could be out of line here cause I do not know where this "should" be placed (your call). However, as it could have a considerable impact on authentic reenactors, sutlers (makers of high end goods such as we frequent), collectors, etc. I thought it appropriate to open the floor for information and discussion in this area of our forum. Thank you!

Ken R Knopp

I found this on a relic dealers site tonight....PLEASE READ:


HR4125

Please take the time to email and call your congressman.

Ask them to support HR4125. This is the most important

legislation ever offered to combat fraud and forgery in the

Civil War antique world. It would require all reproductions

to be marked as such. You can find the contact info for yours at:

http://www.house.gov/house/MemberWWW.shtml

Please don’t put it off; we may not get another chance!

For more info on the bill see the CWDCA at:

http://www.cwdca.org/cgi-bin/Advocacy.asp

.................................................. .


No issue is more critical to the collection and preservation of Civil War artifacts and memorabilia than the proliferation of fakes or reproduced items that are sold as originals.


For those legitimately involved in this business and hobby, this is particularly alarming. This trend is made even worse by the fact that collecting of items such as these help to preserve an important part of our nation’s history. As time goes on and these relics become even scarcer and as a result more valuable, the growing threat of fraud endangers those legitimate dealers and collectors intent on keeping the legacy of the American Civil War alive for future generations.


While the serious collection of artifacts used to be limited to a relatively small number of known dealers, the proliferation of on-line auctions that harbor frauds has made the situation worse and more difficult to control. By a combination of experience and proven research techniques, those of us who have know the field can usually spot a fake. However, even we can be fooled. A more serious problem is the novice collector who buys an item on line thinking it is authentic only to find out it is a reproduction. This turns-off that potential collector and hurts both the expansion of the hobby and expansion of the marketplace for legitimate material, and threatens to confuse and disrupt the critically important fields of research and preservation. Only by thwarting those who traffic in fake historical items can we help protect this nation’s tangible heritage.


There is a solution to this issue. The Hobby Protection Act (Public Law 93-167, 87 Stat. 868.15 U.S.C. 2101 et seq) currently deals with only political items and numismatics (coins). It requires that all reproduction or imitation items must be clearly labeled as such. Expanding this current statute to include Civil War items would call attention to the issue. It would provide dealers as well as collectors some protection from those intent on making a quick illicit profit to the detriment of honest collectors and dealers.


CWDCA is promoting legislation to make this change.

[1stMaine]

Ken,

First off, I am NOT making light of this issue, but I find this a bit over the top. What ever happened to doing research before buying something? I understand the desire of collecters to keep the value of their collections intact, but it seems to me that the onus ought to be on the buyer to become informed prior to spending his money.

What kinds of penalties should be enforced, and what, pray tell, do we do with all the reproductions currently out there? Would it now become illegal to "defarb" our weapons? Will we be required to purchase stamps or "repro offsets" to take care of the items we already own?

The better idea is to track down the folks selling the "fake originals" and treat them to some old fashioned "woodshed instruction" to show them the error of their ways.

I am sorry, but I cannot support such legislation.

Respects,

[Material Culture]

This was already discussed in the sinks
http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14522

Sam Hayle
Anti marking mess

[2ndNHDOC]

One fear and question I have is where will this particular lot stop? I could easily see some PC crowd taking this one progressive step further to prevent Confederate impressions. Give an inch folks and people will take a mile.

[Slouch]

I really dont see the harm in this bill. Why would we care if "repro" is stamped in the sleeve lining of a jacket, or stamped on the inside of a cartridge box under the tins? So long as the repro stamp isnt blazed orange or readily visible, I think its a responsible thing to do.

[JimKindred]

Would you like to add .25 to each button on those uniforms to pay for the new die work to stamp that marking on the back of each button?

I have been collecting for over thirty years and in all that time I have yet to see someone ripped off because they spent too much time studying originals to educate themselves.

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

" Why would we care if "repro" is stamped in the sleeve lining of a jacket, or stamped on the inside of a cartridge box under the tins? So long as the repro stamp isnt blazed orange or readily visible, I think its a responsible thing to do."

Because it doesn't belong there.

Dr.Phil's Life Law No. 1.

Curt

[LibertyHallVols]

How do you prove something is a reproduction? If I make a "gray wool fall-weight jacket" for myself, does that need to be marked?

If I make a reproduction of a Tait jacket, and it is not marked in any way, how can anyone prove the date of manufacture? (presumably, items produced before the requirement would not be expected to be marked retrospectively... or would they?)

Why Civil War reproductions and not WW2, WW1, Rev War, Napoleonic War, or anything else?

If I construct a "put together" musket from original parts, is it original, or is it a reproduction? If I use a Dunlap stock, then is it a reproduction? How many parts must be replaced with repros before an original is a reproduction?

If I strip the paint off of a pencil for my writing kit, must I mark it "reproduction", or face charges?

How do you mark a reproduction nipple pick?

Sorry... I just don't think the law is enforcable (sp?).

[Dignann]

Just out curiosity, have any of you written your elected respresentatives about this, and if so, what kind of response did you get?

While I agree that Congress has more important things to deal with, such as investigating cheating in the NFL and steroid use in MLB, I personally don't see this bill as that big of an issue, because as John stated, how are they going to enforce it? Who knows, perhaps one day all shell jackets will come with a "Do not remove under penalty of law" tag like our mattresses.

Eric

[Slouch]

Would you like to add .25 to each button on those uniforms to pay for the new die work to stamp that marking on the back of each button?

I have been collecting for over thirty years and in all that time I have yet to see someone ripped off because they spent too much time studying originals to educate themselves.

I agree with you that collectors must know what they are collecting. However, as technology advances it becomes easier to create objects that look hundreds of years old. Also, most of the buttons available to us do not match the originals anyway. Even if the price went up 0.25/button, it will be blamed on the price of crude oil. Four billion dollars isnt enough profit for Exxon, but back to the subject...

I agree that this bill will not pass, and if it does there will be little enforcement. I imagine enforcement would only happen if someone was found red-handed selling repro items as originals, especially if those items are here illegally from Mexico
:eek:

[JimKindred]

They enforce it on the manufacturer not the end user. If such a law passed, after the enforcement date all I would need is a visit from the "Federal Button Police" to inspect what was on the shelves to find out if I am in compliance or not.

While the bill may not have a strong chance of passing as a stand alone what you have to watch out for is the bill being slipped into another as a provision of a bill that will pass. They do not even have to be on the same subject, most get passed without ever having been read by those voting on it.

[JimKindred]

Even if the price went up 0.25/button, it will be blamed on the price of crude oil.

It will not be blamed on the price of crude oil from me. If such a bill was passed I would lay the blame on the folks that voted for it and those that wanted it passed. This is another one of those Nanny State laws being proposed to protect those too lazy or stupid to learn the difference between real and reproduction.

[Stonewall_Greyfox]

Bottom Line...this law would hurt the Living History Community as a whole...not the crooks who already try to pass fakes off as originals. These people are already breaking the law by selling items that are not what they claim to be...if this law were to pass, what's to stop them from continueing business as usual? NOTHING!

Jim I agree with you 100%...for many full-time vendors/sutlers...a bill like this could be devistating if passed!

[JimKindred]

I would not go so far as to say devastating but it would definitely raise the prices for the end user.

I suspect as someone may have said earlier some friend of this congressman got burned and now he wants to make some feel good law. The problem is what do you do with the millions of items all ready in the market place? With those already in the market the selling of fake goods would not even slow down.

[LibertyHallVols]

as technology advances it becomes easier to create objects that look hundreds of years old.

As technology advances, it will be easier for science to detect a forgery in even the most visually correct fake.

[tmattimore]

If the bill is passed as written then the markings will not be on the inside. If similar to the markings under numismatics the marking must be clearly visible to an uninformed observer. The bill will most likely pass if the Honarable sponsor puts it into a 20,000 page earmark appropriation.
I have written my congress rep and senator. All are up for election so they seem attentive. It may help. If it does pass be prepared to cover up copy a lot.
Tom

[1stMaine]

Heh,

Tom, I was just thinking to myself about how passing rediculous all of this is, then remembered something else about "fakes" that might add something to the discussion vis-a-vis putting all of this into perspective. Prior to the 50th anniversary of Gettysburg, the Pennsylvania National Guard went all over the battlefield, especially alond the walking paths, "salting" fired mini balls and even unfired ones and peices of shrapnell and shell fragments so the old vetrans could "find" a "relic" of the engagement to take home with them. Sort of a modern day easter egg hunt, if you will.

Also, there are copies of letters extant at the VA Hospital in Togus, Maine, of orders for "Army 4-button blouses, of the old pattern" for vetrans of the civil war residing there who refused to wear the newer pattern (5-button) blouse with their uniform. Thus, it is entirely possible that some surviving blouses may, in fact, be post-war products designed for these same veterans and veteran's homes, rather than actual surplus CW blouses.

Still and all, the onus HAS to be upon the purchaser to do his or her homework. Fraud is still a crime, whether or not this law passes, and nothing in this law will stop the lucrative market in CW fakes that currently exists. Enforcement of the laws already upon the books would be money better spent than any new legislation.

Respects to all,

[tmattimore]

Tim
Amen, fraud is fraud and there are enough laws to deal with that. The problem is that if any one decides to enforce this they will do so at events in sutler row or at the doorstep of manufacturers like jim and myself. Thankfully we both are too far away from the beltway for the casual afternoon job justification. It all depends on some cheese head beaurecrat getting an attitude just how far it will go.
Tom

[Ken]

I just thought I would share the response I got form my Senator regarding the Hobby Protection Act. I oppose forcing Makers of Civil War Reproductions to somehow stamp their reproductions as copy or facsimile. The root cause for the problem with fakes, in my opinion, lies with the ignorant buyer of fake artifacts. You have an obligation to do research and educate yourself before you start plunking down your hard earned money on ebay goodies. People who are unwilling to do that are always going to get taken no matter what. My 2 cents


April 22, 2008









Dear Mr. Raia:



Thank you for contacting me regarding your opposition to the Hobby Protection Act (H.R.4125). I appreciate hearing from you about this important matter.



As you know, Representative James Moran (D-VA) introduced H.R. 4125 on November 8, 2007. This bill would make it illegal to distribute or produce any imitation Civil War artifact that is not permanently marked with "copy" or "facsimile". The purpose of this bill is to ensure consumers who believe they are purchasing or viewing authentic Civil War artifacts are in fact doing so and not purchasing imitation pieces under false pretenses. This bill has been referred to the House of Representatives Committee on Energy and Commerce



With that being said, I understand your concerns that the markings required under this legislation could possibly hinder the accurateness you strive for in your Civil War re-enactments. I understand how having your uniform marked as fake could hamper the believability of your Civil War portrayals. On the other hand, supporters of this bill contend it would help ensure historical accuracy as well as protect consumers from fraudulent purchases.



This bill has yet to be introduced in the Senate but should I get the chance to consider the Hobby Protection Act or a related measure with my colleagues in the full Senate, I will be sure to keep your views in mind.



Thank you again for contacting me about this important matter. Please do not hesitate to contact me with any further questions on this issue or any other matter of importance.



With best personal regards, I am




Sincerely,

Tom Carper
United States Senator

[LibertyHallVols]

Ken,
I applaud you for writing your congressman!

As I said in a previous post (http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/showthread.php?p=92546#post92546), I think this bill will die a quick death as it cannot possibly be enforced.

If I write my congressmen about it, I will pose the very same questions that I pose in the post linked, above.

We can voice our opposition to the bill based on the fact that it will put a booger on our personal windows to the past (cost = $0), or we can voice our opposition based on the fact that the law just makes no darned sense and can't be reasonably enforced.

Now, I'm just a poor ignorant Hoosier, but...

I think if you let your elected representatives the "sound bite" that could be used against them if they vote for the bill come next election, you'll get there attention.
Reenactors = Few in number = No Clout
People who hate do-nothing bills that waste money = Many in number = more clout

My two cents.

[Johnny Lloyd]

Wow...

Aren't you glad to know the state legislature is worried more about marking Civil War Repros and not about crime, terrorism, gridlocked traffic, the local economy, and the high price of food and gas?

But seriously... :rolleyes:

I feel any effort like this will be either killed in any state legislature or not enforceable even if it passes into law. I wouldn't sweat it too hard at this point.

Not addressing this thread specifically, but I get the itchy feeling that sometimes the more we talk about stuff out-loud within earshot of those that don't understand what they are hearing, the more we could invite outsiders to the hobby to make legislation that could adversely affect it. (See also: black power rifle bans, black powder/percussion caps bans, bladed weapons bans, etc.)

Ever get that itchy feeling either?:confused:

Bully for your effort with your lawmaker, sir!

Thanks- Johnny

[JimKindred]

If something like this is ever passed the big question then will be what are they going to do about the millions of items that have already been sold? Who is going to be in charge of gathering up all of those unmarked items to protect the unsuspecting?

I guess a button "buy back" program would have to be funded. :confused_

[Ken]

My frustration in all of this is we seem to live in a society where it is easier to blame the other guy for our problems rather then take a hard look in the mirror and say "You know what, it's my fault I got taken". "I take responsibility for my actions or in this case perhaps inactions". "I'll do a better job educating myself and in the future will only buy from well known, reputable dealers". Instead they go after the manufacturer and say we are going to force you, under the penalty of law, to take responsibility for correcting this problem, even though you didn't create it. In the end you can mark these items until you're blue in the face. The unscrupulous ebay seller will remove the marks, bury it in the dirt for a week, put it in a pretty glass frame and advertise it was worn by Pvt. Slim Pickens of the 1st Utah and some idiot will plunk down their money. It's a stupid law and it solves nothing.:baring_te

[Johnny Lloyd]

My frustration in all of this is we seem to live in a society where it is easier to blame the other guy for our problems rather then take a hard look in the mirror and say "You know what, it's my fault I got taken".

Exactly! -Johnny Lloyd

[Cfarrell]

Can't you just see it now...a team raiding Joe Blow's house cause he illegally reproduces repo civil war goods and distributes them on the AC...I mean "black market."

This is a joke! I mean do I have to stamp every authentic cartridge tube I make...or house wife...or poke sack. Quite a few of us make our own stuff! Are we really going to have to look over our shoulders when we’re are sitting at home making stuff for our pards?

I personally don't believe it will make it very far, but I've been wrong before! The person this will affect the most is our vendors. We all need to remember the many bully buys and other wonderful things our vendors have done for us over the years and be prepared to stick by them if by chance this does come to fruition!

My .02cents...
Regards,

[paulcalloway]

I applaud your good citizenship. This is a letter we all need to be writing.

[Abrams]

Ken,
Now, I'm just a poor ignorant Hoosier, but...

I think if you let your elected representatives the "sound bite" that could be used against them if they vote for the bill come next election, you'll get there attention.
Reenactors = Few in number = No Clout
People who hate do-nothing bills that waste money = Many in number = more clout

My two cents.


I added the bold, and this is right on the money. Its not about right, its not about wrong, its about how many votes are affected in this type of legislation.


My frustration in all of this is we seem to live in a society where it is easier to blame the other guy for our problems rather then take a hard look in the mirror and say "You know what, it's my fault I got taken". "I take responsibility for my actions or in this case perhaps inactions". "I'll do a better job educating myself and in the future will only buy from well known, reputable dealers".

Again, right on the money. People want to be protected from their own ignorance. They say ignorance is bliss. I wish it was painful.

My .02

[Johnny Lloyd]

Gents-

Here's an idea... how about somehow marking originals as original instead of marking repro items. That way, an appraiser of an original item will attest to its authenticity. The mark would not deface the item, it would be discreet, and be an assurance that the item was appraised by a reputable, legally compliant and registered appraiser as a point-of-reference.

There would have to be a total support structure to put this effort into effect, though. Appraisers of antiques, buyers, and sellers would have to be in-line with the whole effort.

If the legislature is gonna do this stuff, let's protect the integrity of the original items it was designed for.

Thanks- Johnny Lloyd

[Cfarrell]

In a way many of the authentic vendors already "mark" their items so they are not misrepresented or mistaken as originals later. Duvall marks his products with a "V" for example. Some other vendors put their own little characteristics in their products that are hidden and not as bold as stamping "COPY" on everything.

Regards,

[JimKindred]

This legislation will only achieve its purpose if every one of the reproductions currently in the hands of the public and the vendors are totally removed from the market. What the legislator that proposes this does not understand is that this is virtually an impossible task and even if attempted would not be accomplished in the life time of those pushing this legislation.

While the intent of the legislation is understandable I am concerned that we will end up with poorly worded legislation that will do nothing to protect the public and only harm honest vendors. Kind of sounds like some of the gun control legislation we see pushed so often, the only ones that will obey the new law will be those that are already honest to start with. Crooks will be crooks no matter what is legislated.

[WoodenNutmeg]

Some other vendors put their own little characteristics in their products that are hidden and not as bold as stamping "COPY" on everything.

Ha...I just picture someone in their uniform with all their belongings being labeled "COPY" in large white stenciled letters.

[Cfarrell]

Here are some particulars about the bill:

Sponsor:
Rep. James P. Moran (Virginia 8th District)

Cosponsors:
Rep. John Albney Culberson (Texas 7th District)
Rep. Charles A. Gonzalez (Texas 20th District)
Rep. Ted Poe (Texas 2nd District)

The bill in its entirety can be view here: http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c110:H.R.4125

A summary of the bill is as follows: (As taken from the site above)

"Amends the Hobby Protection Act to declare as an unlawful, unfair, and deceptive act the manufacture in the United States, or the importation into the United States, for introduction or distribution into commerce of any imitation Civil War item which is not plainly and permanently marked "copy" or "facsimile."

Requires the Federal Trade Commission to prescribe rules relating to such items that are substantially similar to the rules prescribed by the Commission relating to imitation numismatic items."

The bill has been referred to the House Committee on Energy and Commerce. http://energycommerce.house.gov/

Some particulars about the committee:

Chairman:
John D. Dingell (MI)

Vice Chair:
Diana DeGette (CO)

Ranking Member:
Joe Barton (TX)

A full membership of the House Committee on Energy and Commerce can be found on their website, but here is a listing of the subcommittee members where the bill will begin.

Subcommittee on Commerce, Trade, and Consumer Protection

Chairman:
Bobby L. Rush (IL)

Vice Chair:
Jan Schakowsky (IL)

Ranking Member:
Ed Whitfield (KY)

Other Members:

G. K. Butterfield (NC)
John Barrow (GA)
Baron P. HIll (IN)
Edward J. Markey (MA)
Rick Boucher (VA)
Edolphus Towns (NY)
Diana DeGette (CO)
Charles A. Gonzalez (TX)
Mike Ross (AR)
Darlene Hooley (OR)
Anthony D. Weiner (NY)
Jim Matheson (UT)
Charlie Melancon (LA)
John D. Dingell (MI) (Ex Officio)
Cliff Stearns (FL)
Charles W. "Chip" Pickering (MS)
Vito Fossella (NY)
George Radanovich (CA)
Joseph R. Pitts (PA)
Mary Bono Mack (CA)
Lee Terry (NE)
Sue Wilkins Myrick (NC)
John Sullivan (OK)
Michael C. Burgess (TX)
Joe Barton (TX) (Ex Officio)

Want to write you local Rep.? Here is a quick and easy link if you know your local rep http://forms.house.gov/wyr/welcome.shtml

Here are some easy and streamlined tips on how to write a letter:

Write a three-paragraph format letter -
1. Say why you are writing and who you are. List your "credentials." (If any) If you want a response, you must include your name and address, even when using e-mail.

2. Provide more detail. Be factual not emotional. Provide specific rather than general information about how the topic affects you and others. If a certain bill is involved, cite the correct title or number whenever possible.

3. Close by requesting the action you want taken: a vote for or against a bill, or change in general policy.

Be courteous and to the point...a one page letter is best. Include specific supporting examples.

How to address members of Congress: (use this format)

The Honorable (full name)
(Room#) (Name) House office Building
United States House of Representatives
Washington, DC 20515

Dear Representative,

When addressing a chairperson:

Dear Mr. Chairman
Dear Madam Charwoman

It is best to use this address even when using e-mail. This is not the only why to write a letter to Congress but a general way.

Regards,

[tmattimore]

The bill states that the same rules that apply to fake currency will be applied to reproductions. I.E. indelibly marked as copy in a manner that is clear to the uninformed in a place that is easliy observable. My congresswoman and senators will vote against it but nobody cares about Wyoming until they need our oil, natural gas, coal and snow pack to keep California running.:cry_smileBesides as Jim said what are they going to do with the 6000 pair of shoes and boots I have made in the last 20 years for cusumers who complain when I write their name or size inside with a sharpie.

[JimKindred]

Due to that bugger Trent Lott resigning I am left without a representative in the House because my representative was appointed to fill Lott's seat. :angry_smi

This in it self will be difficult to comply with "any imitation Civil War item", that means any buckle, brass fitting or any thing else used in the construction of a cartridge box, knapsack or other similar item will have to marked "copy" individually.

You can bet if this legislation is passed it will cripple the Civil War hobby supply business.

Why stop at Civil War? What about Rev War, Mex War, WWI and WWII? Those areas of collecting are full of fakers.

Who proposed this? http://moran.house.gov/

Jim Moran
2239 Rayburn Building
Washington, DC 20515
Phone: (202) 225-4376
Fax: (202) 225-0017

If you are concerned about this give his office a call.

[WoodenNutmeg]

Why stop at Civil War? What about Rev War, Mex War, WWI and WWII? Those areas of collecting are full of fakers.

This is more than true.

[JimKindred]

You know if you think about it this legislation could also make criminals of any one selling used items such as we have here on the AC. It does not separate dealer from casual seller.

[Cfarrell]

After farther research I've discovered the organization lobbying and pushing for this act to be amended is the ACDA or Atiques & Collectibles Dealears Association. Here is an article from their view point...http://www.harryrinker.com/noprotec.html

As I understand it there was an attempt in the past to amend the bill once before but it was shot down.

Regards,

[LibertyHallVols]

I love it, "Hobby Protection Act"... protecting some hobbies while tearing others down!

The proposed bill (HR 4125 (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/C?c110:./temp/~c110ACHh2e)) is an amendment to a prior law called the "Hobby Protection Act (http://collectors.org/Library/Hobby_Protection_Act.asp)", which is already on the books.

I think Jim is correct... It does not appear to discriminate betwen manufacture or sales (aka "distribution in commerce"), whether through a business or as an individual.

Would anyone like to buy a light weight spring jacket? It is made of a lovely wool-cotton blend material with pretty brass buttons. It looks great with jeans!! :wink_smil

Oh, by the way...
I'm selling accurate reproduction Civil War pencils... I've sanded down some Ticonderoga #2's. However, in order to comply with the "Hobby Proection Act", each pencil is marked "Reproduction" in half-inch letters. :confused_

[JimKindred]

Cody,

Thanks for posting that.

If all they could muster up was 1000 letters it would not take much to double that amount coming from reenactors. I do not believe our hobby is the target of this legislation but it sure looks like a glancing hit could get us.

This was the most intelligent paragraph in the entire article -

"Finally, the Federal Trade Commission has confirmed what many of us have known all along. If the antiques and collectibles trade is going to clean up its act, it has to do so itself."

[Ken]

Please see my letter to the Editor in this months CWN, responding to Mr. Sylvia's letter in the last issue regarding Hobby Protection Act. I would be interested in knowing your thoughts regarding his response to me.

[Ken]

In a way many of the authentic vendors already "mark" their items so they are not misrepresented or mistaken as originals later. Duvall marks his products with a "V" for example. Some other vendors put their own little characteristics in their products that are hidden and not as bold as stamping "COPY" on everything.

Regards,

Cody,

Your right, however the difference here is they chose to do so. There isn't a law forcing them to do it.

[Ken]

Cody,

Thanks for posting that.

If all they could muster up was 1000 letters it would not take much to double that amount coming from reenactors. I do not believe our hobby is the target of this legislation but it sure looks like a glancing hit could get us.

This was the most intelligent paragraph in the entire article -

"Finally, the Federal Trade Commission has confirmed what many of us have known all along. If the antiques and collectibles trade is going to clean up its act, it has to do so itself."

Jim,

I think you are right about our hobby being in the cross hairs. I know a lot of you believe this legislation won't pass, but I say why risk the possibility. Take the time to write your representatives and voice your opposition and explain the absurdity of this law. It's our hobby lets protect it.

[Sweatshop Tailor]

I may be a bit behind the times on this and there may have already been a discussion, but what is the situation on this proposed legistlation regarding marking all authentic kit permanently to show it is of modern manufacture?

see:
http://www.civilwarnews.com/archive/articles/08/april/cwdca_april08.htm

Having been for over a decade the sort of 'zealot' Sylvia characterizes as opposing such legistlation I am suprised to still be in such an excellent state of health (though a bit chafed at times...).

So, is this a serious threat?

KC MacDonald
Founding Member
Lazy Jacks Mess

[JimKindred]

Based on the number of members his organization has been able to attract in two years it would appear this power grab has been a flop. In his article you posted he shows a complete lack of knowledge of serious reenactors, in particular his comment regarding the filing of the Italian markings I found very humorous.

From what I have seen over my years in this business, the problem of fakes rests primarily with those involved in the relic trade much more so than those who manufacture and distribute items made as reproductions. They need to clean up their own house before they come to clean up ours.

There was a lenghty discussion of this topic several months ago, you may want to use the search feature to find that additional information.

[KPavia]

It's funny how he's never heard of John Zimmerman and a defarbed weapon, despite being a reenactor since 1973.

He must portray a deserter who got lost on his way home. And is still lost...

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

I think it of "value" to post from the "article:"

"Some repro makers claim that they don’t mark their products because reenactors demand 100 percent authenticity right down to accurate backmarks on buttons and the reverse sides of belt plates.

I always argued with them on that point. Find me a reenactor who files the stamped logos “Parker Hale” or “Made in Italy / Euroarms” from the barrel of his repro rifle. Find me a reenactor who wears period-style longjohns without the comfort of cotton briefs underneath.

Find me a reenactor who refuses to use the comforts of modern rest room facilities. Find me a reenactor who drinks from the creek or who eats salt pork, chitterlings and cornpone for his weekend battlefield diet.

Only a few zealots, whose authenticity is both admirable and dangerous, are willing to suffer diarrhea, rashes and dysentery for such attention to detail.

I think the authenticity of button and accoutrement plate backmarks can certainly be sacrificed for the greater good.

Blaming reenactors is just an excuse, and a poor one at that. To hear some of the repro makers, you’d think a real reenactor insists on live rounds to get that 100 percent accurate sound of minies whizzing through the air. I point this out as a reenactor myself since 1973. While authenticity is an important criterion of reenacting, it is always balanced by practicality and reason."

Nuff said...

Curt
Admirable, Dangerous, and Unbalanced by Impracticality and Unreason Zealot Mess

[tmattimore]

I find it amusing that congress can find time for this B.S. and not do any thing about fuel which is keeping attendence down at collectors and antique shows as well as reenactments. If it passes I intend to ignore it. Hopefully the F.B.I. will take me off to Latuna Federal prision so I can work on my tan and take a much needed vacation.:D
Tom

[Ken]

Thid was my response in CWN to Mr. Sylvia's obvious ignorance regarding our hobby:
I would like to respond to Mr. Sylvia’s letter regarding the forthcoming amendment to the Hobby Protection Act designed to compel makers of Civil War replica and reproduction Civil War memorabilia to mark their products. I think the operative word here is compel. One could easily substitute the words force, require, coerce and so on. I for one do not agree with this legislation. Mr. Sylvia writes about Mr. Eisenberg’s dismay over the ignorance of many eBay sellers and buyers when it comes to recognizing authentic Civil War relics from reproductions, and it doesn’t take a crystal ball to see that ignorance is the root cause of the problem, not authentically made reproductions. People who don’t take the time to educate themselves about what to look for in authentic artifacts or who aren’t intelligent enough to purchase from honest and reputable dealers are simply asking to be taken. So how do we attempt to correct the situation? We don’t ask the ignorant buyer or dealer to take responsibility for their short coming. Instead, we shift the responsibility onto the manufacturers of authentic Civil War reproductions. We force them to mark, as fake, an item they have painstakingly labored over in the hope that this will solve the issue. There is a problem with this reasoning however because many of the fakes being sold as originals are purposely doctored by the unscrupulous seller to resemble original items complete with dirt, dust and moth holes. Removing a label or obliterating a stamp marked fake will simply add one additional step in the transformation process. Mr. Sylvia questions the accuracy of the repro makers claim that they don’t mark their products because reenactors demand 100% authenticity. I am a reenactor and I can tell Mr. Sylvia that what he was told is true. Finally, Mr. Sylvia discusses negative legislation, and sites as an example, a bill passed in Georgia that now requires relic hunters to notify, in advance, the state archeology department of where and when they propose to relic hunt. Mr. Sylvia goes on to say we must organize and oppose such attempts to legislate our hobby. I agree with you Mr. Sylvia, so why do you feel compelled to legislate mine?