Reproductions: Bayonet Scabbards

[LibertyHallVols]

OK Folks,

In response to Paul C's call for discussion on what makes a good reproduction widget ( http://authentic-campaigner.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14688 ), I thought I'd crack the seal: Bayonet Scabbards!

Why scabbards? Cuz my digital camera is in the shop and those were the pics that were handy.

Attached are the pics of the stitching along the tube of reproduction Federal scabbards from two well-known makers. If anyone has an original scabbard handy, the corresponding views of the original would be a good start to a discussion. (I think once pics of an original are available, it will be seen that these two makers do a pretty good job)

Once my camera is back in service, I'll be able to post pics of scabbards from two more makers.

[GWHall]

These are links to a website selling Civil War relics. If that violates any forum rules, my apologies and understanding if these links are removed.

http://www.shilohrelics.com/cgi-bin/Display_Item_Image.asp?Item=93946&image=3

http://www.shilohrelics.com/cgi-bin/Display_Item_Image.asp?Item=93946&image=2

[Jimmayo]

I have a couple of comparisons on this page: http://www.angelfire.com/ma4/j_mayo/scabbard.html

These pictures are a couple of years old and there are probably better makers around now than when I put these comparisons on line.

[Will Eichler]

John,

Thanks for the photo! It is a great place for me to start asking questions. First off, were there other ways of joining this seam? From the image John provides, I think we see two modes of attaching this seam. The top image shows a clear split between the two sides of leather while that line is missing on the bottom one. I have no experience so would someone who does please chime in and tell us a little about these two constructions methods.

Can we draw any conclusions about where the originals these were patterned from (I am going to make the leap and assume they were both patterened off specific originals) were made by this construction detail?

start edit***It seems from the two examples given by Andy and Jim, that the upper scabbard is made with the same construction technique as both of the first two provided original images. The link Andy gave us didn't provide the any note on the scabbard maker. Jim's credits the shown original as the Gaylord pattern.***end edit

Those are two questions I come up with.

Great discussion. I look forward to hearing from others.

Best,

Will

[August77]

Here are five original scabbards. I have lettered them and will post five separate times to keep things from getting confusing. They are laid out from earliest to latest pattern*.

To answer Mr. Eichler's questions, scabbards were either sewn with a 'butt' stitch which is where the edges of the tube come together so the seam is flat or they are sewn in a way which creates a 'welt'. This is accomplished by skiving both sides of the tube and pulling it together so it lays flesh side to flesh side. See my drawing to make this a little more clear. Also, I believe in this instance Jim is referring to the pattern of scabbard and not the actual maker.

It is my experience that you see the earlier scabbards butt stitched and the later ones with a welt, but I would definitely not call this a rule, just my observation. It is a lot harder to sew them with a 'butt' stitch.

I think it would be great for everyone who has access to originals to post pictures on these threads if they can. It would definitely be nice to have a place to come to see originals of specific artifacts from around the country in private and public collections.

Bill Lomas

*I am dating these scabbards using information from a display on bayonet scabbards by Paul Johnson at the Baltimore Gun Show, I believe 2 or 3 years ago.

[August77]

Bayonet Scabbard A

-This scabbard carried the 1816 bayonet which is shorter than standard Springfield bayonets.

-Frogg is attached with stitching only and is made from white buff.

-Scabbard tip is attached with two brads in the back.

-Tube is 'Butt' Stitched

From Joe Zilley's collection.

[August77]

Bayonet Scabbard B

-Frogg is attached with stitching and 2 copper rivets.

-Scabbard tip is attached with two brads in back and one in front (which is unusual).

-Tube is 'Butt' Stitched.

-The scabbard is marked in an oval "Storms - NY - Maker."

-Also interesting is the tool marks from the rivet setter.

From my collection.

[August77]

Bayonet Scabbard C

-Frogg is attached with 7 copper rivets.

-Scabbard tip is attached with two brads in back and two in front.

-This tube is not in the best of shape and I can't tell if it was 'butt' stitched or not.

-The scabbard is marked with a post war rack number.

-This scabbard may have possibly been shortened for use with the shorter post war Springfield bayonets.

From my father's collection.

[August77]

Bayonet Scabbard D

-Frogg is attached with 8 copper rivets.

-Scabbard tip is attached with two brads in back and two in front.

-Tube is sewn with the welt.

-The scabbard is marked "H.G. Haedrich - Philada." and also has an M. Lutz inspector's mark.

-This is where we begin to see 'fluted' scabbard tubes.

From my father's collection.

[August77]

Bayonet Scabbard E

-Frogg is attached with 8 copper rivets and is made from blackened buff.

-Scabbard tip is attached with two brads in back and two in front.

-Tube is sewn with a welt.

-There is what looks to be a remnant of an inspector's mark.

-Again we have a 'fluted' tube.

From my father's collection.

[LibertyHallVols]

Wow! This is way more than I had hoped for... thank you for all of your replies!!

Bill: Thank you for the wonderful tutorial on scabbard construction!
Question: On the two reproduction, it looks as if the scabbard tubes were sewn with welts in both examples. Is this correct?

Best Regards,

[Will Eichler]

Mr. Lomas,

Thank you for posting those images! What a lesson. Thank you for the quick primer on sewing that seam.

All,

Now, I'm struck by Mr. Lomas' example C. If you look at the main seam, you'll see that some of the stitiching wraps over the top of the "selvage." It almost looks as though the person making it was really rushed or had a bad day, unless someone with leather experience would correct me.

IF my supposition is correct, here is an example of a hastily made, or possibly shoddy made, item. This may be an example of period manners of poorly made equipment construction and have relevance in other discussion here on the forum.

I don't say this to start a flame war, rather to encourage discussion based on some other good threads.

This is a great discussion.

Best regards,

Will

[CSchneider]

Will,

The stitching on C looks like it was done perfectly fine to me. It just seems like some of the leather has worn away over the years to expose a few of the stitches. You'll notice the same thing on scabbard A. If I'm wrong, somebody please correct me.

-Craig Schneider

[Will Eichler]

Craig,

I think you hit it tack on. Should have let the image float in front of my face for a few minutes more.

Thanks!

Will

[Iron Scout]

Folks,

Thought I'd jump in on this one too and really mess people up with this item. This is my favorite scabbard, ever! This is from the Augusta Museum and is most likely a product of that system. The scabbard is made with three thin pieces of wood, similar to veneer, forming the three sides. The tube is then wrapped with canvas and sewn. It appears to me that the tarring was applied after manufacture. I'm hoping for a better look very soon. Oh, and the lead ball/tip has been broken off. You can see the 'plug' in one of the images. Enjoy.

Neill Rose
PLHA

[August77]

John,
It's tough to tell from pics, but I would say they have a welt. Whoever made them should be able to tell you how they stitched them. They look very high quality.

Will,
Craig is right about the leather wearing away to expose the stitches. Scabbard C is in pretty rough condition.

Neill,
Amazing!!!! Thanks for those pictures. I would love to see that scabbard in person. Unfortunately, it will probably be awhile before I get to travel that far south again. It looks like the scabbard is on a pretty interesting 'relic pyramid'... is there any relevancy between the scabbard and the rest of the relics there? It's interesting/strange that there is a carbine snap swivel right above it. It is also looks like they have it sitting in a weird position on that board, as if the frogg is sticking out the back toward the board bending it downward. Or maybe my eyes are just going crossed from staring at this forum too much lately. :eek:

Thanks,
Bill Lomas

[Iron Scout]

Bill,

That neat scabbard is in a four sided case, each side with it's own backing angled at about 70 degrees. Basically, the board is a hodge-podge with rifles, an Austrian bayonet and scabbard, etc. I do hope to get into the case sometime in the future for a better study. They also have a number of other CS leathergoods like a CS copy of an Enfield frog, Dower marked friction primer pouch, Augusta Arsenal marked ammunition crate/box, etc. Very neat place for sure.

Neill Rose
PLHA

[LibertyHallVols]

(I have merged two threads together. On rereading, one thread on this made more sense than two... Sorry if it is confusing to read. Thanks!)

Here two more reproduction bayonet scabbards from two different makers.

The first two (http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=7597&d=1198031880)are from the initial post.

The next two are attached in the thumbnails, below.

Enjoy!

[LibertyHallVols]

The above were Federal style scabbards. Here are two different Enfield reproduction scabbards.

[Eureka Independent]

Hi John,

I don't mean to be rude, but what is the point of this thread? There was no stated purpose why these are posted.

Is this just for comparison sake? Is there a control sample of an original to compare these against? Or are they being compared to each other?

I would be happy to post pictres of an original Enfiled bayonet scabbard and an original US 2 rivet scabbard for comparisons

All the best


Don S

[LibertyHallVols]

Don,

No, you're not being rude. My apologies!

I had stated in the earlier thread (I think) about orginal scabbards that I would follow up that thread with one to examine reproduction scabbards. Time passed, stuff happened... I finally took some photos to use as examples ... more time passed... then last night I had a few minutes to get the posted. So, I threw the thread up on the board and didn't take the time to say what the point of the whole thing was.

It bugged me, but I haven't had the time to do anything about it til now. So, you are quite correct... I should have put more info behind the post, rathrer than just "pics in a vacuum".

So, here's the point...
Kinda like the repro buttonhole thread, I had intended that this could be a chance for folks to look at some repro items and comment on what they see and compare to some original examples (original examples posted on the other thread).

I have kept "name brands" out so the label won't cloud the view of the discussion.

That's all. Again, my apologies for the vague posts.

PS - If you have pics of originals to post for comparison, that would be great! However, I would recommend posting pics of originals on the other thread (the one on original scabbards, linked in the initial post of this thread). Thanks!!!

[Eureka Independent]

Hi John,

Thanks for the reply. I appreciate it. Although it looks as thhough I should apologize to you. I didn't see the theard on the original scabbards. I apologize for not looking a little further than the tip of my nose.

I sincerely agree, the discussion of what makes a good scabbard is a very important thread. The posting of photos of originals and reproductions is very helpful for folks to learn the differences and fine points.

Especially between different government contractors and arsenal products, as there are slight variations between them, finial types, rivet and stiching place emtn , stitches per inch, etc. As can be seen int the various pictures posted by Bill Lomas (Thank you Bill for posting the pics!)

I will take pictures of the Enfiled scabbard and the 2 rivet scabbard I have later today & post them .

Maybe the pictures of this thread should be put together into a refrence hand book for folks. Both a hard copy for sale, and a version for on the AC. Something simmilar to the American Bayonets hand book with illustrations and photos

The proceeds could go to CWPT, I would be happy to put my education in pen and ink editorial illustration to work for this if there is serious intrest in a porject like this

All the best
Don S

[tsgalloway]

I own a 2-rivet scabbard in excellent condition that I'll post pics of after I complete my move.

[LibertyHallVols]

No worries, Don! I struggled whether the discussion of original and repro scabbards should be in one thread or separate. Ideally, I think they should be separated... However, in looking at my initial post, I put up photos of repros as a "nudge" to solicite photos of originals. So, I think starting a second thread just added confusion. (If any of my more technically literate fellow mods would like to do a "split-n-prune" to clear it up, please be my guest!)

I think there is great potential for in-depth examination of original items and their construction, scabbards or otherwise! That is part of the motivation for these recent threads! I am also interested in helping folks develop a critical eye as they view reproduction items - not comparing repro's to repro's, but to originals. Much info has already been shared on this thread, and i think that's great! I would love to see many more threads like this!

Anyway...
The more pics of originals the better, as well as knowledgable descriptions of construction techniques, such as offered by Bill Lomas! (Thanks, Bill!!!)

Also, I'd be interested in folks' observations on the 6 repros I've pictured (or, put up pics of your own... just no makers' names, please, unless you made it).

Thanks!

[Eureka Independent]

HI All

Here are pics of the Original Enfield and Original 2 Rivet Scabbards I own.

The 2 Rivet is a little worse for wear but complete.
The rivets are a little larger than what is sometimes encounterd, more than likely were set with a ball-pean hammer originaly (I know this due to the tool marks on the rivet & from experience in machine shops working metal).

It may have started out as an earlier all sewn type and then was retro fitted to meet regulations or was a contract variation.

The Enfield is more straight forward.

All the best

Don S

[Johnny Lloyd]

Question:

I was once told by a friend that original bayonet scabbards "normally" are still rigid after 140+ years. Is this true? Has anyone done any in-depth research into the subject?

Thanks- Johnny Lloyd

[Eureka Independent]

Hi Johnny

It would depend uppon the condition of the original. Many are still rigid, but also keep in mind as leather gets older it sometimes gets harder as it dries out.

The 2 rivet scabbard I posted pictures of is fairly flexable, but not flacid. But is also isn't in the very best shape either

Hope this helps

Don S

[tsgalloway]

My 2-rivot is very "bendy" as well. It is in excellent shape. This is due to the environment the scabbard has been kept in for the past 140 years. I purchased mine from Tim Prince and I've seen a lot of scabbards on his site. He'd be a good reference in this case.