Trans-Mississippi/AOT Weaponry Question Concering the 1857 Harpers Ferry Rifle

[mslaird]

Before I get into the meat and potatoes of my requests to pick the collective brains of all of you about my inquiries, I need to state that I have read the excellent thread about the Georgia Armory Rifle and I used the search function to the best of my ability. I need to know some information that will hopefully save me some time, heartache and money before I commit to a project that I am thinking about.

I am fascinated by the 1857 brass fitted, Harpers Ferry rifle. I noticed that Curt is quite knowledgeable about them and he has one so I am hoping that he will chime in. I don’t believe I have ever seen anyone at any event with one. My first question is: does anyone know approximately how many of those models were made and if any of them found their way to the Trans-Mississippi Theatre or into the AOT? I am always looking for something fairly unique for my impression if I can find it. (I am kind of tired of seeing the same old stuff at events, like Enfields, 1861s and 1863s at early war events in Arkansas) I have a Armisport ‘42 and I am in the process of getting a ’41 Mississippi Rifle and I wouldn’t mind adding something that is a bit different and that “you don’t see every day” to my stable of arms for my impression.

I found what appears to be an older repro of a ’63 Zouave rifle in a local gun shop that I am going to go and inspect a bit closer tomorrow, for I cannot recall the manufacturer. I had a Euroarms Zouave about five years ago that I used only to hunt and target shoot and it was nothing like this one. The one in the local gun shop is quite a bit lighter and some of the dimensions seemed a bit different to my eyes, I didn’t break out the calipers yet but I will if needs be. The price is fairly good, good enough to warrant a decent project gun if what I have in mind will work, which brings me to my second question.

Again, I read the thread about the Georgia Armory Rifle and it brought this question to mind.

If I purchased said rifle and wanted to have it retrofitted into a 1857 would that work? From my memory and from looking at the images in EOG, Confederate, 30-31, the lock, bands and nose cap would have to be changed and maybe a little stock work. Do you all think that this would be feasible and a worthwhile project or do you think I would just spend a bunch of money that would be better spent on something that has already been made like the James Armory stuff?

I placed this in the Authenticity Discussion because I believed that it fits there, if I erred I apologize. I need to know if it would be authentic to use this weapon for my impression and if I can I need to know if my plan for the project will work. Thanks all for your time and consideration.

[Craig L Barry]

No. The "Zouave" is a reproduction Remington Contract rifle that is based on the US 1841 percussion rifle (a/k/a Mississippi). While these were also known as "Harpers Ferry rifles," and that is how Remington referred to them in correspondence, the "Harpers Ferry rifle" dated 1857 would be the US model 1855 with the Maynard Tape Primer lock. These were made at the Harpers Ferry Armory and Arsenal. The barrel, bolster and hammer on the US 1855 are also completely different from the US 1841s, as is the stock. So "lock, stock and barrel" would all have be changed, as well as most of the hardware.

James River Armory has the US 1855 brass fitted Harpers Ferry rifle you are interested in, and you can check it out on their website (www.jamesriverarmory.com). It can also be ordered with a fully functioning tape primer mechanism, if you like watching the parts move when you cock it. There were about 7,300 US 1855 two band rifles produced compared to about 100,000+ US 1841s (not including all the various CS copies). Hence, the US 1855 Harpers Ferry rifles would be fairly rare in any theater of war.

GENERAL NOTE:

The "Zouave" or Remington contract rifle of 1862 is the not the basis for any period rifles with a US Civil War provenance. These spent the war years gathering dust in Watervliet Arsenal. There are better choices for a project to undertake.

[mslaird]

I appreciate the info Craig, I was hoping you would also chime in. I am not sure from my memory that the rifle that I was looking at yesterday was a repro "Zouave". It felt way too light. My Euroarms was real heavy, heavier than my 42. Another thing that threw me off a bit is the rammer is very close to the 55's rammer which I remember the rammer on the repro 63 I had was different. The endcap on the rifle at the gunshop was the same as I have seen on the rifle musket, though as listed in the thread about the Georgia Armory Rifle. I am going to go back over there and see it again tomorrow. I will attempt to ascertain what it is and who made it. If it is in fact an undoable project I will just stick to the James River Armory model. Are you familiar with their products? Thanks again.

[Craig L Barry]

Very familiar with JRA, strongly recommended especially the various rifles like the Fayetteville and Harpers Ferry 1855s. Plus they reproduce some of the various Whitney "good and serviceable" arms which are quite interesting. The prices at James River are about half of what a custom gunmaker charges.

Get a couple pics if you would of that "Zouave" because every one of those I have seen is quite heavy as well, like 9 3/4 lbs. One of the few reproductions to actually match the weight of the original.

[mslaird]

I will take the digital camera with me tomorrow when I go. I wish I could remember what was stamped on the lock and who the maker was. I have been looking at JRA for about two weeks now, contemplating what I want more, a 1855 rifle musket with an iron patchbox or the 55 type I rifle.

[tmdreb]

Of the 1855 models, the rifle musket would be the most versatile of the two. I agree that the rifles are more attractive, but as stated above, very rare.

1855 rifle muskets were with the US Army in Texas prior to secession. Granted, a lot of these were carried out when the US soldiers left, but there were enough behind to end up in the hands of many future Confederates. Parts of these weapons have also been dug on Red River Campaign sites as well, so we know they were in use at that stage of the War.

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

At the moment, I forgot to look as I answered this same question here or on the "other board" a few weeks ago... ;)
As shared, the Remington Contract Rifle repro will not work to be made into Georgia Armory rifle or more particularly a U.S. M1855 rifle (the first two versions of the M1855 Rifle in 1857/1858 were brass mounted).

it would apear that Remington received a July 1861 contract to make a rifle "similar to those of the Harpers Ferry rifle model of 1855..." But due to revolver making the contract went unfilled, but was reissued in August of 1862 with a second in December. However, Remington did not make the M1855, but the so-called "Zouave" instead.

I am partially to M1855's and Fayettevilles, as I used to build custom ones- either the Fayetteville "High Hump," "Low Hump, or the "Standard" "S" hammer type.

IMHO, if one were looking for a rifle, the James River offerings are a decent way to go. Or, one could take and rework an M1841 "Mississippi" Rifle to be a variety of CS clones or even U.S. arsenal and contractor reworked ones from 1854 through 1862ish.

And in general, remember, what makes a "rifle" is NUG, a 32-33 inch barrel that has a thicker barrel wall than a rifle-musket or musket, and is noticeably "heavy" as a result (not to be confused with so-called "artillery rifles" that were 40 inch rifle-muskets barrels reduced/cut down to 32-33 inches.)

Curt

[mslaird]

Thanks Curt, I appreciate the info. I was just speaking to my father about this as well. We are going to go see what this animal is at the gun shop. I picked it up and originally dismissed it as a Zouave. But as things go, the more I thought about it after I left the shop the more questions came to mind, like the weight issue and some of the other things about it. I will get some pictures of it and throw them up tomorrow afternoon. We also found a 1840s vintage double barrelled percussion shotgun that is excellent condition other than a couple of small easily repaired dents in the right barrell. If the repro is a bust then we are looking to the original as it is also at a favorable price.

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

Oh I forgot...

I will look if I can find the pre War arsenal survey data I last looked at about 7-8 years that gives somewhat of a snapshot as to what was in various arsenals in what would be Northern and Southern States.
I suspect, without looking, that that was posted 2-3 crashes ago and lost.

At any rate, unaltered M1841 Rifles, arsenal and contract altered M1841 Rifles, and various versions of the M1855 Rifle were in state arsenals in 1861.

Regarding the M1855 Rifle... they were made exclusively at Harpers' Ferry, and between 1857 and 1861- 7,317 were made, first 3,545 being the two types of brass mounted versions and then 3,772 being the three types of iron mounted versions. (A number of these last versions are believed burned up in the fire at Harper's Ferry, before the machinery and some parts went to Fayetteville.)

Ha. It may be one of my custom-built M1855's on the wall, as there are a number "out there." If the barrel has a serial number of "2372," it is one of mine... ;-) :-) )
Curt

[mslaird]

Thank you again. I will look and if it has that number I will be sure to buy it immediately.

[mslaird]

Well,

I went and took another look at the rifle at the gun shop and I have to say that I was suprised to find that it was a Lyman. I confirmed my former feeling that it was a tad light and I got some photos of it. The lock doesn't look quite right and it did not have any date stamps like any of the other reproductions that I have seen. I don't know that it is supposed to be a reproduction of because it doesn't look like the barrel walls are thick enough to be a "Zouave" repro. I was thinking along Curt's earlier suggestion that it might be an artillery rifle. I am not familiar with Lyman's repros except just that I know that they made them. I don't know what they made or when.

For some reason I am not able to upload the pictures.

[Craig L Barry]

Lyman makes (primarily) BP hunting rifles in .50 cal. No Civil War application for these. Shoot me the pics via email and I will take a closer look, if you like.

[mslaird]

I have a Lyman Great Plains Rifle around the house. Fun to shoot, real accurate with patched round ball but thats about it. Pics are on the way. I appreciate it.

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

I will see if I can find my old 1972ish GUNS AND AMMO magazine's "Blackpowder Gulde" that had a listing of guns in the back.
For some strange reason tonight I am remembering Lyman offering a "Zouave" back then maybe (But I was mighty young and that was in the previous century...)

Curt

[mslaird]

I remember seeing a Lyman catalogue that was pretty old that had something like that in it. My friend's father had a bunch of older catalogues, Gun Digests, and Traders Guides around that were from the 70's. I think it might have been in one of those that I saw it.