Cooke and Brother rifle repop

[Prodical Reb]

While surfing the net I found this Cooke and Brother repop being produced in Dahlonega, Georgia. While his storefront looks pretty FARBY, the rifle appears to be the perverbial diamond in a goat's a**. I'm not very knowledgable on these rifles so I'll just regurgitate the info from the website. They start with a Euroarms P58 the convert to the Cook & brother rifle from Athens, GA. It's seems pretty pricey at $1000; $600 if you supply the rifle. Are there any other makers of a Cook and Brother repops?

More experts out there than I, what do you think? finally a good use for that old EuroArms 2 bander gathering dust in the gun safe?

The only thing I noticed that didn't look right was it looks like the tang of the triggerguard has been brased together to create a longer tang for the sling swivel. But this could be entirely correct manner in which the original was made but I doubt it. Da** I hate not knowing it all!:cry_smile

http://www.bearclawstradingpost.com/cook_brother.html

I'd post some pics but the website uses a scrolling picture viewer and can't copy and save those.

I know its use is limited to late war only being made in 63-64. How many total were originally produced and who and where were they issued to? Bummers is coming up!

[WoodenNutmeg]

A very interesting find to say the least...thanks for sharing.

I'm sure someone of merit will come to the rescue on this one.

Da** I hate not knowing it all!

Well, I'm convinced most of us here have Asperger's Disorder anyway, so, you're not alone.

[LWhite64]

Looks pretty good, probably the best repop I have seen. One thing though, yeah the Athens model would be restricted to late war, but Cook and Bro were operating in New Orleans early on as well, so they probably could put together a 61 model. Also, the Cooks had a lot of variations as well. We have several here at Chickamauga, you can come over and check them out.

Lee

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

From a Moderator's POV, Asperger's Syndrome can seem quite common.... ;) :)

Seriously,

Cook & Brother started out in New Orleans in 1861, but moved to Athens, GA in 1862 thanks to the Yankees.
Production numbers are fuzzy, as they made rifles and "artillery pattern" carbines, but some 7,000 total pieces were made (about 1,000 in New Orleans).

Basically they are the 'Enfield" rifle and artillery carbine/musketoon clones with some minor differences. In brief and to over-generalize...

1861 made pieces were similar to the British pieces save for minor and major details like hammers, ramrods, brass bands, wide front sight, and the extended trigger guard plate with brass sling swivel. However, already by 1862 "expedients" were appearing such as simplified rear sights ("Kentucky block style"), simplified front sight, and elimination of the long rail type sword bayonet lug mount by late 1862-1864.
"Expedients" and exceptions are known, such as an oval "patchbox" on a rifle, cherry stock, and there is also a surviving "cavalry pattern" carbine with captured ramrod and sling bar. And the hammers, while 'Enfield" profile, vary between the "medium" and "heavy" types lacking line engraving and the "chevrons."

In brief and to over-generalize, IMHO, any repro based upon Italian repros simply carry over the "problems" or "short comings" of the Italian reproductions. For this offering, I personally would prefer to see a "'Cook & Brother, N.O. 1861" or 1862 lock stamping to be a full sighted, sabre bayonet version, with Enfield style ramrod.
Aesthetically, a little more "brass" maybe in the brazing to extend the Enfield trigger plate to make the Cook & Brother extended version. And, the size of the flag and letters on the lock plate stamping were smaller on the originals and typically struck without so much metal displacement. And the only barrel markings I recall were a "Proved" stamp" (And "F.W.C." stock cartouche).

All told, I have only seen two C & Bro rifles and one carbine, in the flesh...

Value received for dollar spent I leave to the maker and particularly the buyer.
But, IMHO, it is nice to see "something new" NOT coming out of India/Pakistan. ;-)

Curt
As a 2nd Sergeant, in the Way Back Daze, I used to carry a Cook & Brother Rifle I made Mess.

[Craig L Barry]

The Confederate produced arms are the most challenging to study and analyze, but a few patterns emerge. First, according to conventional wisdom the US model 1855 based production from the CS Armory were considered "the best firearms made in the Confederacy", nothing against Francis and Ferdinand Cook (Cook & Bro), but they were no James H. Burton and they were not working with the kind of machinery the Richmond got from Harpers Ferry. Second, the CS produced arms were mostly based on three weapons, the US 1855 (rifle and rifle musket), the US 1841 and the Enfield. This one of course, being based on the Enfield rifle pattern. The CS produced rifles were considered "poor copies of the Enfield" (Katcher, Philip "American Civil War Armies" p. 38). I have not seen enough evidence to make a determination one way or another, but certainly there was a crudeness to most CS produced longarms except for the output of the main CS govt Armories (F'ville and Richmond).

I am pleased to see somebody stepping up to produce something more accurate in terms of a Confederate produced Enfield pattern. There are a few points to consider here...it has been noted that only a smattering of these were produced, though estimates do range up to 20,000 (Ibid Katcher) and this particular version would lack any early war provenance, limiting its potential utility. The lock plate does not appear (from the pictures) to fit particularly well in the lock mortise. The barrel should be blued, and I can't tell what finish they put on it, but it does not appear to be blued. The stock has not been re-contoured to resemble the Enfield commercial pattern, or the pictures I have seen of the few surviving Cook & Bro Enfields.

Like Curt says, when one begins with an Italian repro it carries forward the same shortcomings. Interestingly, Euroarms makes a Cook & Bro Enfield rifle that is not too different from this one, item CB 330 (www.euroarms.net). Wouldn't someone be better off de-farbing one of those for a lot less than the cost here, which seems a princely sum for the work being done? Not that I am suggesting the Euroarms other than as a less costly alternative.

I would put that diamond back in the goat's a**. It appears overpriced.

[Prodical Reb]

We have several here at Chickamauga, you can come over and check them out.
Lee

Lee,
Its been years since I've been to Chickamauga NMP. I love the weapons collection you have on display. I 'd like 1 of everything you have there. Ever find the coffee grinder Sharps?

Back in the mid 80's, my first reenacting unit, 14th Indiana, Co E, did LHs there on the park grounds. We were based out of S. Indiana. Our ring leader was Tom Nord. I belive the park Historian at the time was Dale something or other. I can't remember his last name but I'm pretty certain that his first name was Dale. also did some volunteer work as a CS Art'y crew there too. I'll be back again in the same capacity! Kinda tough to get there now given my current location! Take care and Merry Christmas!

[Craig L Barry]

I was there in August and the "coffee mill" Sharps was on display at CHCH as part of the Fuller Collection.

[Joe Walker]

I didn't see where this outfit put the word "Proved" on the barrell. There also should be number underneath the nose cap. Nice repro regardless. I took a Euroarms "Cook Rifle" and sent it to Zimmerman about eight years ago. He did a nice job. Hardest part is adding to the trigger guard tang.

Joe Walker

[marlin teat]

Lee,
I belive the park Historian at the time was Dale something or other. I can't remember his last name but I'm pretty certain that his first name was Dale. also did some volunteer work as a CS Art'y crew there too. I'll be back again in the same capacity! Kinda tough to get there now given my current location! Take care and Merry Christmas!

That would be Dale Chambers and he is still around. I was probably with him, as was Lee W. and the rest of the Chick-Chatt old timers.

I wish Dale would get online sometime as he would be a great contributor in discussions such as this. He really knows his weapons.

[Roy Queen]

I've just finished reading John Latty's new book out on the 11th GA Cavalry Regiment, formerly 30th GA Cavalry Battalion, and in it, there is mentioned that this regiment was armed with Austrian rifles and Cook and Brother Carbines, of which the troopers disliked because of shoddy workmanship.

The title of the book is: "A Fine Body of Athletic Soldiers A History of the 11th Georgia Cavalry Regiment". This unit spent some time in Athens, so it does make sense that some of the Cook and Bro. rifles would have been issued to them.

Roy Queen

[Pritchett Ball]

Glad to see someone bring up the Cooke & Brother rifle...

I have a book on Confederate firearms: Confederate Longarms and Pistols, A Pictorial Study by Richard Taylor Hill & William Edward Anthony. It has about 16 pages on the varrious models/versions of that firearm. As Joe Walker brought up, "Proved" is seen on the picture of some of these.

I've handled Joe's Zimmerman re-worked (Fix sighted) Cooke & Brother, loaded with a .578" 405gr Hodgdon (SP?) target minnie Bullet, loaded with 38.5 gr of FFFG Elephant Black powder...I put 5 shots in a ragged 1-3/8" hole at 50 yards!:D

I'd love to see info on WHO were issued the Cooke & Brother Rifles/carbines.

Kevin Dally

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

"I've handled Joe's Zimmerman re-worked (Fix sighted) Cooke & Brother, loaded with a .578" 405gr Hodgdon (SP?) target minnie Bullet, loaded with 38.5 gr of FFFG Elephant Black powder...I put 5 shots in a ragged 1-3/8" hole at 50 yards."

Nice shooting! Really...
While that should drop one's Hit -Time Average, I am having trouble seeing how that contributes to the authenticity or historical correctness of the reproduction?

(Half-teasing, thanks to the emoticon used...)

Curt

[Pritchett Ball]

Oh gosh, Curt...

I forgot to add that the "group" was 1 foot BELOW the 4" black dot I was shooting at.:o

But I thought the rifle had potential...if we could get the point of impact, to the point of AIM!

I still would be interested in info on known sources as to whom these rifles were issued to.

Kevin Dally

[civilwarcaptain]

Here is a picture of my C&B that Modified myself:

http://www.freewebs.com/5thnycavalry/photographs.htm

[VaTrooper]

What are the odds that someone from the 5th NY Cav found one of these and decided to carry it? Zero? Less?

[civilwarcaptain]

I do not carry it, it is in my personal collection.

[marktaylor]

How many of these were actually produced? Any idea?

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

Sources/references vary.
I learned it as less than 1,000 in New Orleans, and around 7,000 in Athens of all types.

Curt

[Craig L Barry]

Well, they made mostly rifles and a limited number of rifle-muskets. The Osprey series (Confederate Army 1861-1865) states "The New Orleans Rifle Company (Cook & Bro) produced 550 weapons patterned after the Enfield rifle-musket...followed by an additional 1,500 Enfield rifles before the fall of New Orleans." They resumed production in 1863 in Georgia, producing another 7,000 or so.

The Osprey series is not the best source, but confirms the ballpark figures Curt provided. Like most CS produced arms, there were not many Cook & Bro Enfields produced compared to the number imported from Europe.

[brown]

Well, as long as everyone else from Chickamauga is speaking-up on this one, here I am.
The Fuller Collection is a neat reference point for American made arms, particularly if you'd like to see a large number of 1861 Springfields with most of the various contract locks on them. Mr Fuller also brought together a number of prototypes due to his connections at Springfield. Perhaps even more impressive to this discussion are the CS produced pieces (more numerous than imports in this collection). While there aren't huge numbers of southern weapons, there are some neat examples of the variety. Also, if you go to visit the collection, remember that the 355 weapons in this collection encompass pieces that may have been used from the earliest European settlements of North America through the early part of the 20th century, with the largest portion relating to the ACW and the weapons contributing to the weapons of that era.
Marlin, the staff/volunteer at Chickamauga in question may indeed be Dale Chambers, who has volunteered at the park since the late 70's and would be an amazing contributor. He also maybe remembering the park historian who pre-dates Jim Ogden, a gentleman by the name of Dale Phillips.
Hope this adds to the thread, even if my post returns to an early portion.

[marlin teat]

Lindsey,
sending you a p/m

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

A wonderful "public viewing access" collection!!!!!!

Yes, if it is still there... There is the protoype/sample M1861 Springfield "circular patchbox" butt-stock section.

Curt

[Craig L Barry]

Practically one of a kind. Fuller was able to indulge himself with his American infantry arms collection. Claud E. Fuller was author of The Rifled Musket. Born in 1877, Fuller was a native of Elkhart, Indiana and a Civil Engineer who specialized in masonry. He had over 48 patents for different types of bricks and during the New York City building boom he made his fortune. His financial resources allowed him to accumulate a tremendous gun collection over the course of 50 years. He retired to the Chattanooga area and donated his collection to the CHCH battlefield park in 1954, and passed away in 1957. The first edition of The Rifled Musket was published posthumously in 1958.

The Fuller Gun Collection is not strictly a US Civil War exhibit, but it is very concentrated around Civil War arms of American (CS and US) manufacture. The firearms have been meticulously maintained, and most appeared unfired. In evidence there, beginning with the US 1795 flintlock are a variety of smoothbore and rifled muskets including a good sampling of percussion conversions of the US 1816/22. These older US muskets were extremely common on both sides early in the Civil War. There are excellent examples of almost every Federal Armory as well as private contractor produced US Model 1861s produced, including a very rare “UACo” US 1861 dated 1863. Union Arms contracted with the Ordnance Department in April 1862 for 25,000 arms but very few were ever delivered on that contract. I have never seen an example of one previously besides the one pictured in The Rifled Musket.

Also present in the Fuller collection were several unusual “American Made” P-53 Enfield rifle-muskets, including a few of the “Eli Whitney” variants produced from previously condemned parts. Whitneyville Armory was shipping them South until the Federal government put a stop to it in May 1861. Claud E. Fuller wrote a book on the Eli Whitney contract arms, which were obviously an area of special interest for him. Besides the “Enfield” variant the collection also includes Whitney contract US 1841 percussion rifles. There was a rare P-53 contract Enfield from “O. Blunt” marked “Union” in front of the hammer with an eagle/shield behind the hammer. Orison Blunt of New York City, N.Y., contracted with the Ordnance Dept. to manufacture "Enfield-pattern" rifle muskets in 1861. It is believed that these muskets were assembled from a combination of imported and American made parts. Only 500 were believed to be completed and delivered by May 1862 when the government cancelled the contract.

The most unusual firearm in the collection is a rare 1863 Sharps carbine with (of all things) a crank in the stock in place of the patch box. The crank had nothing to do with loading or firing the weapon and worked as a grain or coffee grinder. The “coffee mill” Sharps carbine was an experimental weapon produced for Missouri state militia “mounted foraging troops”. These were units primarily dispatched to the frontier as raiders and without a steady supply line had to be able to live off the land, potentially grinding their own grain. The idea didn’t catch on. Only one other such firearm has been observed firsthand. It was displayed in the New Market Battlefield Museum (not the VMI Hall of Valor). And there are thought to be only a handful of the “coffee mill” Sharps in existence, but of course nobody really knows.

You are to be excused if you don't find all this as fascinating as I do. Mods, you can move this to another thread if you like...it is a bit off on a tangent.

[LWhite64]

One note on the coffee mill Sharps, it doesnt work. It will not grind coffee. A few years ago when the weapon was going to be conserved we tried it, and the mill is actually a grain mill, so coffee beans are too large for it.

Lee

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

A grain mill? Intersting. (Isn't Experiemental Archeology wonderful?)

I am trying to remember where I saw the last "Sharps Coffee Mill?" I think it was in 1981 at the Buffalo Bill/Winchester museum in Cody, Wyomng.

Curt

[Johan Steele]

As a question on the Fuller collection; is it true there is a Springfield lock M1841 included? I know it is thought this was a parts gun but I believe Fuller maintained that Springfield made some.

Talk about a tangent!

[yipper]

Mr. Steele,

Springfield Armory did make a M1841, though it was a .57 caliber percussion musket made for the West Point Cadets (506 of them made). Could this be what you are referring to? See the following entry in the Springfield Armory on-line museum:
http://www.museum.nps.gov/spar/vfpcgi.exe?IDCFile=/spar/DETAILS.IDC,SPECIFIC=2051,NEXTRECORDS=21,PREVRECOR DS=1,DATABASE=33002266,LISTIDC=/SPAR/PAGE.IDC,RECORDMAX=10,RECNO=14,WORDS=m1841\

Regards,

geoffrey lehmann

[Craig L Barry]

The 1841 Cadet muskets were similar to mini US 1842s, in .57 caliber smoothbore and with three barrel bands. This is not the same weapon as the two band US 1841 percussion rifle "but made at Springfield Armory."

The US 1841 rifle did not go into production at Springfield Armory to my knowledge, only at Harpers Ferry (one of the nicknames besides "Mississippi" is "Harpers Ferry rifle") and several commercial contractors, Whitney, Remington, Tryon (very few) and Robbins & Lawrence. This is not to say there would not be prototypes and whatnot at the other national armory at Springfield but the US 1841 rifle was not known to be in production at Springfield Armory.

I am sorry to have taken the thread so far off the initial subject of Cook & Brother Enfields.

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

Yes, the M1841 Cadet Musket is a horse of a different color, but it does have the same lock as the M1841 Rifle.

I have seen a very VERY few "Springfield" M1841's.. may be 1, or 2. And maybe as many loose lockplates

Historically it is a fuzzy area, as the surviving records at Springfield Armory do not speak to them except for one in 1849 that says that 3,200 M1841 Rifles were produced. However, some maintain that those were not actually M1841 Rifles but rather a special production run of rifled M1842 muskets that were shortened for the Fremont Expedition.
And that the extremely rare "Springfield" M1841's are Harpers Ferry made M1841's that for one reason or another (Pre War armory recycles, or CW era refurbished, etc.,) were post-refitted with locks or lock plates from recycled Springfield made former M1847 Musketoons.
And that the loose "Sprinfield" lockplates found are M1847 Muskettoon plates and not
M1841 Rifles plates, the two being virtually identical.

Curt

[Johan Steele]

Mr Barry & Schmidt; thank you for some more good date. M1847 muskatoon lock in an M1841 might just confuse the bejeesus out of anybody.

[mobluegraysoldier]

Mike,
While I am not all that familiar with the Cooke & Brother rifle being offered by Bear Claws, I am sure that a good knock off could be done with a good gun to start from. My biggest question is "does the P53 Enfield resembele the Cooke & Brother close enough to enable a competent smith to convert it?" From what some of the other posters have said, it appears that it can be done, but the question is "does the shop have enough skill and knowledge to do the job?" Just about the only way to know for sure would be to get one, and compare it, in the flesh, to an original. Again, like many repro's, the big problem is are they trying to copy a gun that they have, and is it representational of the majority of the production or did they go off a rifle which has seen modifications/damage or was a unique variation from the majority. The other possibility is that they combined various aspects of the production run and made a "generic" version of the original.

Good luck in "the big sand box"! My nephew got back from Tikrit a couple of years ago, and is glad he was allowed out of there.

Kevin Baker; aka, mobluegraysoldier

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

"...I am sure that a good knock off could be done with a good gun to start from. My biggest question is "does the P53 Enfield resembele the Cooke & Brother close enough to enable a competent smith to convert it?" "

"I am sure that a good knock off could be done with a good gun to start from."

1. Rarely, if never. One needs a "good copy" so as not to simply transfer the weaknesses, flaws, and short-comings of the reproduction to another reproduction. If one starts out with an Italian repro Enfield (P1858) Naval Rifle and not an original Cooke & Brother Rifle... well...
And that quickly gets us into the discussion of our Civil War Community accepting less in our firearms than we do in our clothing and gear.

My biggest question is "does the P53 Enfield resembele the Cooke & Brother close enough to enable a competent smith to convert it?"

2. Short answer, see No. 1 above... ;) In brief and to over-generalize, the "salient" feaures of the "Cook design" is brass bands, an elongated trigger plate, and a brass swivel and stud below the trigger plate on the underside of the stock. So, those features plus the remarking of the lockplate can stand to "make" a Cook & Brother Rifle from an P1858 Naval rifle based upon the degree of acceptance we hold for reproduction firearms (but still carrying the so-called "de-farbable" or "not de-farbable" features...)

3. Even shorter answer still... custom-build an "authentic' Cook & Brother from an original... ;) :)

Curt