S Isaac Campbell Knapsack Reproductions

[DBURT]

With the Colin McRae papers shedding new light on English Imported goods to the Confederacy, can anyone point me in the right direction as to who makes the most authentic repro I&C Knapsack and messtin?
Cannot find any A/C vendor who even makes the messtin, any ideas anyone?

Dave Burt, ACWS, England.

[27thNCdrummer]

Dave,
I would recommend the Village Tinsmith. They make very good tinware and good English mess tins as well.

[3alabama]

I believe Village Tinsmith is the only game in town for English mess tins. I think ************ and Missouri Boot and Shoe are the only ones for I & C packs. Good luck finding what you need

[WoodenNutmeg]

I have a Village Tinsmith English mess kit in unused condition for sale if anyone is interested.

[LWhite64]

Ah, the remember the old days, still have my Sam Haywood Issac and Campbell, remember his H. Ross variant as well, had white buff closure straps. My first Campbell bag was from Radamacher, with a year and a half wait. The Good Old Days.

Lee

[reb290]

I think ************ also sells the cover for the Tins.

[GreencoatCross]

All,

I saw this on eBay a long time ago and assumed it was some kind of camp-made winter cap. As it turns out it's a camp-made English mess tin cover! Not sure how it ended up at the museum though:

http://ncmuseumofhistory.org/MOH/vfpcgi.exe?IDCFile=/moh/DETAILS.IDC,SPECIFIC=69580,DATABASE=63527899,

Pretty slick! Looks like it was made from some captured Federal trousers.

[Lucky]

NJ ************ offers an excellent copy of the Isaac & Campbell knapsack, as well as the mess tin covers.


You can see it here,

http://www.nj************.com//OSCommerce/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=31&products_id=62&osCsid=4db48d1ac2e236e352540b9531d8fbd0

It is a reproduction of the original which resides in the West Point Museum I believe.

And the mess tin covers,

http://www.nj************.com//OSCommerce/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=169&osCsid=4db48d1ac2e236e352540b9531d8fbd0

[CJDaley]

My first Campbell bag was from Radamacher, with a year and a half wait. The Good Old Days.

Lee

Yup, my first pack was a Rademacher, I've sold it since, but know the fella who owns it and it's till providing excellent service. I waited 26 months for that bad boy and 15 seasons later it's still in great condition.

[LWhite64]

Chris,
Yeah, sold mine as well to get the Haywood one, just wanted the bigger label back then, but kept the Rady shoulder straps, still use them, so thats 15 years of use on those shoulder straps.

Lee

[YoungCampaigner]

Hello All. The Dirty Back Boys make the BEST reproduction of an Isaac and Campbell knapsack that I have ever seen. I just got one for Christmas and, let me tell you, it is absolutely perfect in every detail. The canvas is painted by hand with period paint, the entire thing is hand sewn, and all of the hardware on it is correct. Their website is http://www.dirtybackboys.com.

[plankholder]

I have an I&C knapsack on the way from Eric Woods(The Dirty Back Boys). It should be here in the next few days and I will give a review. I will say that Eric has been wonderful to deal with and he gave me a wonderful deal on the knapsack, and every other item that I have purchased from them in the past has been first rate.-ELI GEERY

[westcoastcampaigner]

Hello All,

Eric Woods makes a grea I&C knapsack and after seeing one I can attest to the fact that it is an awesome pack. Hand sewn leather work, period correct paint, excellent craftsmanship. For such a great pack and the amount of hand work that goes into it, $150 is one heck of a deal. Not only are you getting good craftsmanship but you are also getting great customer service, Eric is a great guy to deal with. Don't pass this up if you are looking for a good CS pack. I think he has one left so get on it.

Best Regards,

Josh Sawyer
Liberty Rifles
hardtack Society

[C.R. Henderson]

I got my Kibbler bag from Eric and you are correct about the service. Hands down some of THE best service I have ever rec'd.

[Material Culture]

Their website says "Latex" for the Kibler, Johnson, and Federal Knapsack... Is the Isaac and the Campbell the only one with Period Correct paint?

Sam Hayle
Tin Rooster Mess

[westcoastcampaigner]

The I&C pack is done with period paint. The others are done with latex normally and can be done with period paint if requested but the cost is different.

Best Regards,

Josh Sawyer
Liberty Rifles
Hardtack Society

[coastaltrash]

Is Eric using the correct weight linen and buff leather where appropriate?

I managed to get an I&C knapsack made by Sam Haywood, and I can say there is no vendor today making a product nearly as good as the guys from the old school, NO ONE. As for what is available in today's market, ************ is the best thing in production right at this moment, I have seen pictures of Eric's bag and while his customer service is stand up, I know several people, myself include that have had questions about the reproduction. The interior straps seem a bit small, and the addition of a makers mark would be a great improvement.

Cody Mobley of the Company Tailor is about to start his run of English import knapsacks and I am sure they will be the closest thing to what the guys from about a decade ago were cranking out.

[plankholder]

Sam Haywoods's were sweet, I have always regretted parting ways with it. I will have one of Eric's in a day or two and will report on how they compare.-ELI GEERY

[westcoastcampaigner]

No, from what I saw Eric is not using buff leather anywhere and the bag it made from a cotton material and the main flap of the bag is lined with linen. I have a ************ I&C that I bought used and from what I can tell it is currently the best repro of that style knapsack on the market. Correct linen bag, hardware, Herman Oak tanned leather and it is 100% hand sewn. The only downside if you are really picky is that it seems to be painted with a modern paint recipe. I'd recommend ************ as well. Has anyone seen one of Serio's I&C packs? Where do they stand as an I&C repro? What are your thoughts?

Best Regards,

Josh Sawyer
Liberty Rifles
Hardtack Society

[coastaltrash]

The only reason I got my knapsack was because an old Salt in the hobby was parting ways with the last of his stuff at the Nashville show, I just managed to be the first one to run into him. Before that happened, I had been on the study trail for about 2 years trying to find who was making a great US and CS knapsack. Even though the cost may be a bit higher, ************ or Welch make superior knapsacks in terms of construction, Cody Mobley makes the best CS knapsack with correct paint recipe. That being said about Cody, I personally can not wait to see his English reproduction accoutrements when he finishes the line.

The other thing to consider is the cost involved for the maker of these bags. This hobby swings and sways on what is so great and needed that a vendor can't keep up. The largest here today gone tomorrow trend of folks seems to be imported items. Either its flood or drought. The investment for a vendor to make anything English import is far greater than to just stick to the standard line, which is why the repops cost more, and the vendors that provide them are so small. I'm personally glad that Neill Rose and the South Carolina Relic Room were kind enough to post the McRae docs and show just how common these items should be.

[DBURT]

Gents,
Thanks to all for the comments, the McRae papers are going to make everything by S Isaac Campbell huge again.
Knapsacks, Ball Bags, Waistbelts (Snakebelts) Pouches ( Cartridge boxes) Oil Bottles, Cap Pockets.
Just received a I&C snakebelt from Brad Malone which is a superb copy of the one residing in the Greenville museum, with correct tunnel stitch, rough side out leather, which is blacked on both sides, so you can get a correct snakebelt from him.
A good copy Oil bottle can br purchased from O'Dea military equipts.
But does Mr Heywood still make the I&C pack??
Thanks
Dave Burt, ACWS, UK.

[Pvt Peck]

Dave:

Can you PM me Mr. Malone's contact info? I have been wanting a proper "snake buckle" belt for some time. I will be ordering a Cartridge pouch/box from Tim Welch in 2008 I hope. I would really like to get a proper set of English wartime accoutrements together. Thanks for any info you can share.

Edward Parrott

[rmassella]

Several years ago, I had the opportunity to purchase a used Isaac & Campbell Knapsack from a gentleman in the Southern Guard. I believe his first name was Sam, not sure of his last name. Anyway, he said that the knapsack was one of the first ones produced by a vendor that first started making them many, many years back. It is a first rate knapsack and as I can recall, many people were lined up to get the it; I was the lucky purchaser. I was just wondering if anyone who remembers that thread and if they may know who that vendor might have been, since I can't remember who it was. Thanks for the help.

I was able to Purchase the knapsack from Sam Cathey: Thanks Huck for Sam's last name!

[Iron Scout]

Well folks,

I've watched this thread and have been very interested at the responses. I guess the bottom line is that there are a few vendors producing packs with varying degrees of quality. I'd like to encourage folks to do their research thoroughly on these packs through sharing info with others, viewing originals, posting pics of reproductions vs. originals, etc. I really wish more folks would get interested in producing some of these items in exacting quality; the information is certainly available. I know I'd be willing to post studies of at least one of such articles. Anyway, take this as encouragement to get out there and find where the originals are, etc. I know of at least 3-5.

As Dave mentioned, the McRae Papers are slowly changing the way we look at Confederate finance, supply and their impact on the average soldier.

Cheers,

Neill Rose
PLHA

[LWhite64]

Neil makes some good points. As to the originals:

1. Stone Mountain, GA, or at least there used to be one there.
2. Atlanta History Center.

Where are some others? Also Mess kits or meat canteens. The Chattanooga Regional History Museum has one IDed to a soldier in the 26th TN.

Lee

[Iron Scout]

Lee,

Here's mine:
1) Overton knapsack-MOC (buff straps)
2) Dugan knapsack-SCCRR&M (I&C marked)
3) No ID-knapsack-Augusta History Museum (currently on display)
4) & 5) Private Collections-Columbia, SC

2 Mess Tins-one at the SCCRR&M and the other at the UDC Museum in Chaleston, SC.

Neill Rose
PLHA

[Garrett Silliman]

Here's a decent photo of the one in the Augusta Museum. This and the one at the Atlanta History Center are the two that I am familiar with and compare favorably (at least macroscopically) to my MO B&S Knapsack.

[GreencoatCross]

Neill,

There is another one on display at the Wisconsin Veteran's Museum that I saw earlier this year during a research trip. Unfortunately, since it was on display, I was unable to examine it closely.

The really interesting thing is that it was coupled with a full set of accouterments that included a waistbelt with a Louisiana buckle and one of those "CS" embossed canteens with alleged origins to LA. I may be mistaken but I want to say that the entire set was captured by a Wisconsin soldier serving in the west.

[ohpkirk]

Jarnagin sells the only British mess tin that I would purchase. I have handled the original it was patterned of (in Lon Webster's collection) as well as the first one off of the production line. I have side by side shots of them somewhere on this computer or on a CD somewhere. If I find them, I will post them.

[creed1939]

Cody,

I looked on their site but could not find it. Any ideas? has it not been put out yet?



Thanks
Chris Reed

[ohpkirk]

You may have to email them. It was on their website in the past.

[DBURT]

Cody,
If your looking in, would love to see the Jarnagin and original messtin photos if you have them.
Have had tinware from Jarnagin in the past, and have been impressed with it, if he does a messtin, I would give them serious consideration.
Also Cody, when do you plan on starting your I&C knapsack reproductions?

Dave Burt, ACWS, England.

[DougCooper]

Cody,
If your looking in, would love to see the Jarnagin and original messtin photos if you have them.
Have had tinware from Jarnagin in the past, and have been impressed with it, if he does a messtin, I would give them serious consideration.
Also Cody, when do you plan on starting your I&C knapsack reproductions?

Dave Burt, ACWS, England.

Ditto on that last question!!

[PanzerJager]

I know of another original also resides in the NC state museum along with the field made mess tin cover posted earlier in this thread. I know it's there as I saw it laying a table in the back room along with other confederate accouterments. I tried searching the link below but wasn't able to find the knapsack, some of the items are listed funny in the state catalog so I'm not surprised. Maybe some one else has more info on the one I'm referring to.

http://ncmuseumofhistory.org/nca/nsearcha.html

[Jefferson Guards]

The GNMP has two English packs as well as one painted linen mess tin cover.

[Mark Susnis]

add the vistors center at Shiloh NBP to the list..sorry no pics or accession notes.

Mark Susnis

[Iron Scout]

Good discussions folks,

For clarification, here's the originals that we've discussed:

1) Wisconsin Veteran's Museum
2) Augusta History Museum
3) SCCRR&M
4) MOC
5) Stone Mountain
6) Atlanta History Center
7) Shiloh NBP
8) Getysburg NMP x 2
9) NC Museum of History
10) Pamplin Park
11) Chimborazo Hospital (NPS System)

Pretty impressive list once you look at it. That's 10 (including the two at G'burg) English pattern knapsacks that we know of in this one thread. Wonder how many more are out there in institutions and private collections!? Small sample size but I think it gives us the perspective that these things were everywhere!

Regards,

Neill Rose
PLHA

[Minieball577]

I recall one in a private collection that was claimed to be used by a U.S. Navy sailor that has been displayed at recent Mansfield Ohio Civil War shows. (I can't clearly state the provenance, but the display was mainly one man's identified uniform and effects.)

[Joe Walker]

There is one at the Texas CW Museum ID'd to a 4th Texas man. It is missing the lid(top) and the bail.

Joe Walker

[Eureka Independent]

Hi All,

Maybe some one mentioned this , but there is an example of t a Mess Tin in Burbank California as well

All the best

Don S

[wade03]

I know of another original also resides in the NC state museum along with the field made mess tin cover posted earlier in this thread. I know it's there as I saw it laying a table in the back room along with other confederate accouterments. I tried searching the link below but wasn't able to find the knapsack, some of the items are listed funny in the state catalog so I'm not surprised. Maybe some one else has more info on the one I'm referring to.

http://ncmuseumofhistory.org/nca/nsearcha.html

I have looked at both of these items myself for to reproduce them. I do not think either of the items are english made. The pack looks to be a confederate copy. Nice stuff though.

[PanzerJager]

I have looked at both of these items myself for to reproduce them. I do not think either of the items are english made. The pack looks to be a confederate copy. Nice stuff though.

Would you happen to have the museum catalog number for the pack at the NC state museum? When I saw the pack it was only briefly as it just happened to be in a back room on the table while I was going to look at some other items at the museum, only briefly glanced at it in passing. I would like to take a better look next time I'm down but can't find the catalog info via the website search.

Regards,

[wade03]

No I don't sorry man. I'll tell you what though this knapsack is quite the project! Turning out good though!

Would you happen to have the museum catalog number for the pack at the NC state museum? When I saw the pack it was only briefly as it just happened to be in a back room on the table while I was going to look at some other items at the museum, only briefly glanced at it in passing. I would like to take a better look next time I'm down but can't find the catalog info via the website search.

Regards,

[wade03]

By the way. Does anyone know if all these packs came with frames? Or did some of them not have the wooden insert?

[Iron Scout]

Wade,

Per Huse's own writing on all the I&C invoices I've viewed, frames were "disallowed" and the charges dropped. I can't remember if Cody's Ross & Co. pack had a frame or not, but all the examples I've seen are without. Even though he amassed huge debt purchasing items for the CS Gov't, Huse was quite the stickler with frivolous items that could be produced in the Southern states. Canteens and haversacks are also absent from Huse's purchases which I've always found interesting; only one purchase of each for the entire conflict (as far as records have shown).

Anyway, your mention of the NC pack possibly being a CS copy really has me interested. A December, 1862, running invoice for the English steamer "The Justitia" (per the McRae Papers) lists 10,000 sets of knapsack hardware, 500 some-odd lbs of "leather knapsack trimmings", 7000 yards of enameled cloth, "black bridle middlings for knapsack straps", etc. etc. Lots of information in this document to argue for CS production (potential) of domestic goods based on English patterns. There are actually several other examples of such items. Please give us more information or does anyone have quick access to the collection? I'd love to see some images of that knapsack!

Regards,

Neill Rose
PLHA

[wade03]

Wade,

Per Huse's own writing on all the I&C invoices I've viewed, frames were "disallowed" and the charges dropped. I can't remember if Cody's Ross & Co. pack had a frame or not, but all the examples I've seen are without. Even though he amassed huge debt purchasing items for the CS Gov't, Huse was quite the stickler with frivolous items that could be produced in the Southern states. Canteens and haversacks are also absent from Huse's purchases which I've always found interesting; only one purchase of each for the entire conflict (as far as records have shown).

Anyway, your mention of the NC pack possibly being a CS copy really has me interested. A December, 1862, running invoice for the English steamer "The Justitia" (per the McRae Papers) lists 10,000 sets of knapsack hardware, 500 some-odd lbs of "leather knapsack trimmings", 7000 yards of enameled cloth, "black bridle middlings for knapsack straps", etc. etc. Lots of information in this document to argue for CS production (potential) of domestic goods based on English patterns. There are actually several other examples of such items. Please give us more information or does anyone have quick access to the collection? I'd love to see some images of that knapsack!

Regards,

Neill Rose
PLHA

Well, As for the first part of your post I was looking at Jarnigans website which stateed that they made their pack from the one in THEIR collection and that the frame was included in the original and ditto with the reproduction. So maybe it is a CS made frame? Interesting, I think i might add a frame in the one I'm making.\

Enameled cloth....That makes perfect sense! The original I studied was painted black but did not have the distinctive smell, look or feel of the linseen oil/ lamp black/ japan drier/ and turpintine. so enamel....I bet that was what was on it. I believe it was CS made b/c The stiching is semi-sloppy, Sometimes they even backstiched the leather in place instead of saddle stiching it. It wasn't marked at all. It wasn't linen. And It had completely different hardware. On first thought I guessed it was cotton but further thought and studying made me believe it was hemp! Actually this knapsack belonged to McRae...i think...

[Jefferson Guards]

Would you happen to have the museum catalog number for the pack at the NC state museum? When I saw the pack it was only briefly as it just happened to be in a back room on the table while I was going to look at some other items at the museum, only briefly glanced at it in passing. I would like to take a better look next time I'm down but can't find the catalog info via the website search.

Regards,

Is this the knapsack in question?

http://ncmuseumofhistory.org/MOH/vfpcgi.exe?IDCFile=/moh/DETAILS.IDC,SPECIFIC=64100,DATABASE=398977,

Artifact Description: PAINTED COTTON KNAPSACK WITH LEATHER TABS ON CORNERS, LEATHER STRAPS, BRASS BUCKLES AND WOODEN BAR ACROSS TOP; RECTANGULAR, FLAP OPENS TOWARD WEARERS BACK.

Access#: 1917.26.3
Artifact Class: MILITARIA
Associations: MACRAE, JOHN BURGWYN/ASSOCIATED WITH
Dimensions: [Lt]1' 4 9/16" [Wdt]5 1/2" [Ht]1' 3 3/4"
Materials: COTTON --LEATHER --BRASS
Date Made: 1862-1865
Place Made: UNITED KINGDOM ENGLAND LONDON JERMYN STREET
Place Used: USA NORTH CAROLINA
Use History: 1862 --AD -- --1865 --AD

[Iron Scout]

Wade,

Just because something looks sloppy doesn't mean it's not English and has to be CS produced. From what Brian posted, it appears the bag in question is English with the Jermyn Street address. Typically, English goods are well made but below British ordnance department standards. Remember, I&C, Ross, Hebbert and all these guys were out to make money. Switching from 10spi to 7-8 spi wasn't going to hurt anyone but could certainly save production time.

The bags I've inspected exhibit numerous backstitches throughout. See the attached images; can'd do a reproduction without inspecting the original and having images as back up.

Regards,

Neill Rose
PLHA

[wade03]

Wade,

Just because something looks sloppy doesn't mean it's not English and has to be CS produced. From what Brian posted, it appears the bag in question is English with the Jermyn Street address. Typically, English goods are well made but below British ordnance department standards. Remember, I&C, Ross, Hebbert and all these guys were out to make money. Switching from 10spi to 7-8 spi wasn't going to hurt anyone but could certainly save production time.

The bags I've inspected exhibit numerous backstitches throughout. See the attached images; can'd do a reproduction without inspecting the original and having images as back up.

Regards,

Neill Rose
PLHA

Neill,
You are right. But I still believe it to be a CS produced. The paclk is very soild but not to the quality of other english stuff I have seen. The hardware is COMPLETELY different, and I saw no evidence for alteration. Could it be possible that the hardeware england was sending the CS might not have all been the "normal" I&C hardware that we think of. It had iron rings and snap clips. It also had no makers mark, which i'm not sure is a strong point as some english stuff may not have been marked.

[Iron Scout]

Wade,

Great thoughts all the way around. The mention of rings and snaps now has me more interested than ever. The link Brian Koenig posted for the museum has me interested too as it mentions the Jermyn St location. Wonder how they figured that if it's unmarked? I believe numerous suppliers made these so unmarked examples are certainly within the 9-10 we discussed earlier.

Regards,

Neill Rose
PLHA

[PanzerJager]

Neill,

I am good pards with one of the head curators at the museum, I will shoot him an email and see if he can provide any more information on pack. When he and I briefly looked at the pack on the table we both thought it was English made but as I stated before this was just a passing glance not more then a few minutes. I’ll see if he can add anything and post it here.

Regards

[Iron Scout]

Seth,

Thanks for your efforts on this; any images would be hugely helpful. Any general views, front, back, interior and maybe some hardware shots like those attached here. Not asking for much am I?:wink_smil

Anyway, does anyone know if this pack has straps? I can honestly say I've never seen a set with the packs I've viewed. That would be a treat for sure.

Regards,

Neill Rose
PLHA

[DBURT]

For anyone who is interested , Dave Jarnagin is to do a limited run of the English messtin,( as discussed earlier in this thread) from Lon Webster's private collection.
Lon kindly lent Dave his messtin, and the repro will be an exacting copy of this original.

Dave Burt, ACWS, England.

[Jefferson Guards]

Does anyone own one of the Jarnagin reproduction mess tins so we might see the quality of the product?

[LWhite64]

Of note on the Atlanta History Center, as stated they have one on display, a Ross made one. They also have a mess tin on display right below it.

Lee

[PanzerJager]

Neill and all,

I heard back from my curator friend at the NC museum, it seems our initial 2 minute evaluation a few months back was wrong about being British made, here’s what he had to say when I asked him about the reference to Jermyn Street address:

“Funny you should ask right then, I have the damned thing in the lab when you wrote. Anyway, there is no reason. The curator just saw one in a book labeled Isaac Campbell and went with it. There is no real reason to believe it so...actually the hardware is all wrong so we believe that it definitely WASN'T made by them. Another contractor? A local made copy? We don't know, there is a new book out on CSA English equipment so we'll be checking. There is nothing in 'item history' file that sheds any light one way or the other. It shouldn't have been listed that way on line”

I have replied back and asked him if he could take some photos of the pack as well. It seems next time I treck back down to NC I am going to have to take a look at this one.

Regards,

[sepoy1857]

there is a new book out on CSA English equipment so we'll be checking.


Does anyone know the tittle or author of this new book?

[Iron Scout]

Seth, Scott:

Yeah, a new book on English items, hmmm. Figured we would have heard about that. may be the book on Peter Tait. Yes, pics would be hugely helpful. Thanks for your efforts.

Neill Rose
PLHA

[LWhite64]

Could it be Lon Webster's long awaited book? Heard it was supposed to be out sometime this year.

Lee

[wade03]

Here are some of the pictures I took while examining the pack. The pack had its original straps.

[Prodical Reb]

Wade,
heard you're making a reproduction of one of those I&C knapsacks! How is it coming along? anything you would like to share with us yet? Like pics of it!

[wade03]

Its coming alright. I just have to order the buckles. Its a pain to make:)


Wade,
heard you're making a reproduction of one of those I&C knapsacks! How is it coming along? anything you would like to share with us yet? Like pics of it!

[Enfilade]

Good discussions folks,

For clarification, here's the originals that we've discussed:

1) Wisconsin Veteran's Museum
2) Augusta History Museum
3) SCCRR&M
4) MOC
5) Stone Mountain
6) Atlanta History Center
7) Shiloh NBP
8) Getysburg NMP x 2
9) NC Museum of History

Pretty impressive list once you look at it. That's 10 (including the two at G'burg) English pattern knapsacks that we know of in this one thread. Wonder how many more are out there in institutions and private collections!? Small sample size but I think it gives us the perspective that these things were everywhere!

Regards,

Neill Rose
PLHA


Hey Neill, Don't forget the knapsack at Chimborazo Hospital. They had the S. I & C on display in a glass case years ago when I visited. Has anyone examined it?

Mark Berrier
North State Rifles
http://www.northstaterifles.com

[Peachfuz]

Saw this at Pamplin Park yesterday.

[westcoastcampaigner]

Hello All,

Based on the pictures I've seen here, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that Nick ************ is making the best Isaac & Campbell pack on the market right now. If you have one of his packs, take a look at it and then look at the pictures here. His attention to detail is amazing. Then again I have never had to privilege to examine an original up close so maybe I'm off base here. Just my $.0.02

Best Regards,

Josh Sawyer
Liberty Rifles
Hardtack Society

[JimCarrol]

I've got a English Mess Kit from village tinsmith a+