Provisional Supply Company?

[John "Red" Turner]

Gents,

Although not listed on the "Approved Vendor List" I was wondering if anyone had ordered through the Provisional Supply Company before? If so, what was your experience, and did they tailor their good and uniforms more toward authentic campaigners (proper material, documentation, construction)?

Thanks for the help.

Very Respectfully,
John Turner

[MLovejoy]

I ordered a pair of trowsers from them over the summer, and I am very pleased with what they did. There is a lot of hand stitched details on them (button holes, along the waist, bottom hems) and they do the long seams on a 1858 Wilcox and Gibbs sewing machine. They are very responsive to emails and answer just about anything you ask them. The only drawback you might have is that they use an 85/15% wool blend. It is the same material Chris Sullivan uses on his standard grade pants, and from what I was told by the owner, he learned to make his pants from Chris himself. Take this how you may, I'm just reporting on my experience with one item I have from them. Take a look at the Stony Brook site if you want to get a good idea, mine look identical to them.

[pvt_jb]

I have ordered one item from Provisional Supply. I tried out one of there contract issue shirts. I would not recommend it for anyone on this forum. The buttonholes were not handsewn. The button holes were also sewn with a plastic thread/fishing line. Then on the inside of the hole there were some squiggles of white thread. There is also some plastic/synthetic stiffing material in the collar, cuffs and pocket. It is a warm and comfortable shirt but not authentically constructed in my opinion. I have no knowledge of any of their other items.

I would suggestion to stick with the general rule that if a price seems too good to be true then it is.

[Craig L Barry]

The Watchdog reviewed some accoutrements (me) and a Union Frock coat (John Tobey) a year or two back and neither could be unconditionally recommended. The quality was in-between mainstream sutler row and marginal.

I would not use the articles I reviewed personally, so it failed the acid test. Nice guys, though.

[J.H.Berger]

I have ordered one item from Provisional Supply. I tried out one of there contract issue shirts. I would not recommend it for anyone on this forum. The buttonholes were not handsewn. The button holes were also sewn with a plastic thread/fishing line. Then on the inside of the hole there were some squiggles of white thread. There is also some plastic/synthetic stiffing material in the collar, cuffs and pocket. It is a warm and comfortable shirt but not authentically constructed in my opinion. I have no knowledge of any of their other items.

I would suggestion to stick with the general rule that if a price seems too good to be true then it is.

Besides that they state the shirt to be of cotton flannel but it ought to be of wool flannel.

[DougCooper]

Since this is not an Approved Vendor, and never will be, I feel justified in recommending that those interested in quality reproductions simply avoid this vendor. They are no better than mainstream sutler row and in some cases, worse. The prices alone ought to be a clue, if the photos are not sufficient.

I comment here because the verbiage and claims on this website are particularly deceptive and probably account for the continual questions that arise on the AC and Szabo about this vendor. They talk a good line about dedication, are members of the COMH, etc. None of that translates to quality.

But do review the photos and verbiage yourself - a moderate level of material culture knowledge will quickly help you come to the same conclusion. The website is a fascinating blend of information and misinformation, much of it having little to do with the pattern, material and construction of the articles being produced.

My favorite is, as comrade Berger says, the cotton flannel "issue shirt", which of course never existed. The stange modern sizing method for federal sack coats is a hoot as well. to wit:

"**Note** Sack coats are shipped with the correct maker and sizing stamp. The sizing stamp was actually a dot or series of dots denoting size. They were size one, two, three and four. Size One = 40-42; Size Two = 44-46; Size Three = 46-48; Size Four = 48-50. Actual sizes during the war were much smaller however the sizing system is the same. Later war sizing was done with a numerical system."

Why bother to use sizes 1-4 if they do not correspond to the original?

These guys purport to make quality items but the opposite is true. The leather looks Pakistani (and mostly machine sewn) and is much inferior to anything Jarnagin makes. The Officer's Haversack is hysterical - for the same price you can get one of Don Smith's (TMD) outstanding examples. Note the angled leather stitching - a clear indicator of machine stitching. The patterns, material and construction of the uniforms is mainstream or worse, except for perhaps the superior grade federal sack coat. But for just a very few dollars more, you can get an authentic one of those made by Dan Wambaugh or another Approved Vendor.

This must be the third or fourth thread on these guys, on both the AC and Szabo. Can we not go through this again?

[John "Red" Turner]

Gents,
Thanks for the feedback. Looks like I'll be steering clear.

Respectfully,
John Turner

[paulcalloway]

Ken of Provisional Supply wishes to address Doug's concerns so I'll reopen the thread so we can entertain that discussion.

[Craig L Barry]

I also received an e-mail on this, along with an offer from Ken Friedman to re-evaluate their current cartridge boxes which have been improved to reflect some of the recommended changes mentioned in The Watchdog product review of a few campaigns ago. We are always willing to take another look, and applaud any vendor that is open to constructive criticism and willing to make historical feature improvements.

Provisional Supply Company says they actually made a number of the recommended changes, which if memory serves means their cartridge boxes would now be made using domestic vegetable tanned leather, correct # 3 linen thread coated with kit and feature hand sewn seams with correct knot tie offs, iron mordant leather dye, actual tacks instead of fake tack holes, etc. At least those were some of the qualities lacking in the US 1861 box we evaluated a few years ago. I will be anxious to see these improved cartridge boxes. There are some excellent cartridge boxes available now from Duvall and EJ Thomas these days. Also PSC added a 1861 .69 box, another recommendation that was made.

[August77]

...and feature hand sewn seams with correct knot tie offs,...

Just a quick note about thread knots seen on originals (and re-pops since we're discussing them):

When you see a knot at one end of a seam on leather goods this is actually where the saddler started sewing and not the end. The reason there is a knot is to prevent waste, meaning saddlers actually tied the ends of two threads together so they could continue using the thread that was already on the needles, instead of cutting the excess off and using a new thread. Correct hand stitching (concerning leather) requires two needles, a long thread and a stabbing awl. The hand sewing awls available through places like Tandy are not relevant to and should not be used in replicating 19th century leather goods. These hand sewing awls are used for making a lock stitch (like many machines), which is not how Civil War period leather goods were sewn. When looking through originals you will see that some seams don't have a knot at all.

I hope this helps!
Bill Lomas

[Jersey Blue 2]

My fellow reenactors,

It has been brought to my attention that many of you are concerned about the authenticity and quality of the uniforms and gear coming from Provisional Supply. Please allow me to explain how and why Provisional does what it does. First, I am the owner of this company. I own it along with two other partners. All of us long-time progressive reenactors. We all had a problem with the fact that event sutlers don't really sell correct gear and if you wanted that you had to pay top $$$ for it. We thought that there had to be a way to have the correct stuff available to all at an affordable price. We set out on a two -year journey to learn as much as we possibly could through making strong partnerships with museums, private collectors and to read all we could get our hands on having to do with the history, evolution and construction of leathers and uniforms. As a result, we've become quite knowledgeable.
We also worked out very specific costs of raw materials with our suppliers so that our overhead is quite low. Finally, and perhaps very importantly, we started this company not to get rich, but to improve the hobby that we hold so high. To make correct uniforms and gear available to all in the rank and file without the sometimes unobtainable price tag. We just got sick and tired of all the farbyness walking around and decided to take the bull by the horn and do something about it. Enough of the blue canteen covers please!
We have been accused of selling paki stuff. I work the leather and all uniforms and such are made in the US. We use only the most authentic raw materials in our cartridge boxes such as raw iron buckles that are hand japanned, correct ball finials that are likewise based on owned originals. Black waxed thread from documented quartermaster general notes. Pards, our prices are truly correct for the really good gear. Gear you could NEVER get at sulter row. Not to mention our leather gear comes custom stamped with the makers mark that would have most likely provided gear to your unit. The 4 largest suppliers to the largets depots.
Our coats.. Enlisted frocks made from fine broadcloth. Padded and quilted liners, Waterbury buttons sewed on, hook and eye gathers at the throat. All following correct army regs. Guys there are a hundred variances, there are no absolutes. What we go by are what we actually physically viewed, handled, cataloged and copied.
It is human nature to be skeptical. I would be too. If you have any questions about anything we do, or documentation we go by please call me or email us. I'll be more than happy to discuss anything with you at all.
There was one individual who posted a very uninformed posting about us. Claiming that we are Paki resellers and our gear is a joke and so on and so forth. Please understand, we have had no dealings with this man. He had never seen our gear, spoken to any customers of ours or based his opinions on anything real. Please go to the horse’s mouth. I will talk to anybody about anything to do with our company. We are a company of reenactors for reenactors. We are all in this together. Provisional Supply just wants to do history proud. We don't hold authenticity hostage to the highest bidder. Correct and affordable gear should be available to all.

Sorry to go on so but I understand there has been much talk about us and I wanted to cut to the chase and tell all the real deal.

Your servant,

Ken Friedman
Provisional Supply
www.provisionalsupply.com (http://www.provisionalsupply.com)

Edit: Ken, we'll allow your link and business name in this post since you're defending your business reputation, but at this time you're not an approved vendor here and until that time comes, you'll need to just sign your name as Ken Friedman in future correspondence.
-PEC

[Duff]

I personal own both a frock and a pair of pants made by provisional. They are both very well made and would be accepted as authentic enough if I walked into a campigner event wearing them. The pants have handsewing, as Matt Lovejoy said, in most visible areas and machine sewing on a PERIOD sewing machine on the long seams. The frock is also very nice, though it does not have as much handsewing as the pants. The lining is correct, and it is quilted and padded.

Honestly, unless you OWN gear made by someone, you really don't have a right to rip apart their buisness. Looking at pictures on a website doesn't really prove anything, good or bad.

[pvt_jb]

I respect the fact that you saw a problem in the hobby and took action to try and do something about it. I also respect you coming on this forum to post.

However, my comments on the contract shirt still stands. I still remember cutting the fishing line out of the buttonholes and resewing them. At least then I could wear it under my Daley sack coat at a one day winter local event to help stay warm. Of course, I would not tell anyone that it was a contract issue shirt. But for any other type of event the shirt stays home.

[DougCooper]

Since I was one of the folks who started this storm I will respond. It is a question of degree here, and my original post could have been more diplomatic. For that I apologize.

The original question was "What do you think about Provisional Supply?" Mine and other responses on here was "not up to standards of the Approved Vendors on the AC." In your PM to me you sight the several museums and such that feature your gear. Having worked with a number of museums donating items, I think I can say that most are not experts on the subject.

I guess the real question here is - if your quality is actually high, do you intend on becoming an Approved Vendor? That would be one way more of us could get to know your goods. Currently, there are great makers who cover all your product areas, but if your stuff is correct, the market will help you if your prices remain so low. It has been our collective experience that low prices normally point to lower quality - its simple economics.

I appreciate it that you are not trying to get rich - well neither are the approved vendors who work so hard to get it right. The folks getting rich are the one's like C & C sutlery who buy from Pakistan and then sell cheaply over here...but still make a much wider profit margin than the best vendors. <strike>The best vendors in this hobby normally don't make a living off the hobby. The worst do.</strike>

If one closely examines the photos, the stitching, leather, etc on the cartridge boxes, officer haversack etc, they not only do not match the best being made by Duval, Welch, ************, Serio, EJ Thomas, Don Smith, etc, but they do not match the originals. That is OK, but don't come on here and say you have figured out a way to match that high quality for much less money. Give us specifics on the materials, pattern and construction.

Now if the photos no longer match the examples being made, put up some new photos. Include a few close-up photos of originals along side your repros. Having seen and handled a number of Pakistani examples, the leather and stitching in the photos resembles those - that is what the term "reminds me of" means. Tell me why I am wrong - using the words from Craig Barry's post below. The hard working folks in this hobby on the forum don't have time to order one of your boxes, decide if it is a worthwhile investment and then send it back if not. The photos and descriptions must include close-ups and all the reasons why it is authentic, including the leather origin, etc. From what I can see from the photos (and that is all we have to go on short of ordering something for "trial"), I would avoid your work - simply because there are better, higher quality goods available...not because of any lack of dedication or effort on your part. Its about the money being spent by the good folks on this forum and hard work of the Approved Vendors.

If we can do anything on this forum to help our comrades, it is education on the various vendors who offer goods to us. Normally I hate to get involved in such discussions, but for whatever reason I jumped in here - call it loyalty to the best vendors and concern for the man next to me line. I regret that decision.

Again, I apologize for offending - but my comments on the goods I addressed still stand. For near the same, or a few dollars more, there are outstanding examples from the Approved Vendors that are a better value.

[mattifatti]

I can respect what Doug Cooper posted and he makes many good points, especially about putting new pictures on their website. I would like to say, in addition to all the suggestions, that Provisional Supply is willing to come to one of your meetings with anything you request to look over. I don't know if this makes them more authentic or not, but it was nice for us who do not have a lot of extra cash to buy things just to check out. Now, I do know their quality was much better than sutler row. I would be interested to see how some of you, who know more about different goods, feel about what Provisional has to offer.

[Craig L Barry]

Ken has advised that they are sending one of their improved cartridge boxes to me for evaluation. I will look it over and share my thoughts on it with the caveat being that we all understand what the "standard" here is...that is how it compares to an original cartridge box of the same type. This one is supposed to be the .69 elongated ball US 1861 version. Point being, the question is not going to be "Is this a good box for the money?" It is a fair standard for most of the hobby but that is not the standard in place here. The price is not a factor, only the historical accuracy of the reproduction.

I will see if I can get some pics as well.

[paulcalloway]

Ken has advised that they are sending one of their improved cartridge boxes to me for evaluation. I will look it over and share my thoughts on it with the caveat being that we all understand what the "standard" here is...that is how it compares to an original cartridge box of the same type. This one is supposed to be the .69 elongated ball US 1861 version. Point being, the question is not going to be "Is this a good box for the money?" It is a fair standard for most of the hobby but that is not the standard in place here. The price is not a factor, only the historical accuracy of the reproduction.

I will see if I can get some pics as well.


Thats commendable Craig but we've actually had the experience here in the past that an aspiring vendor sent a work of art for us to review and then when the orders started flooding in, they filled the order with a sub-standard item that didn't even vaguely resemble the piece sent for review.

A blind or double blind review is probably the single best way of assuring that we're getting a true representation of what Joe Hardcore is going to get when he places an order.

This isn't just true with Provisional Supply but with any vendor.

[sharpshooter]

I personal own both a frock and a pair of pants made by provisional. They are both very well made and would be accepted as authentic enough if I walked into a campigner event wearing them. The pants have handsewing, as Matt Lovejoy said, in most visible areas and machine sewing on a PERIOD sewing machine on the long seams. .

I got the canteen cover,l pants and shirts. Frankly I that pants are solid as is the material for the canteen kit and the strp is outstanding. Not real crazy about the shirts, the collars do not seem right me.

[Jersey Blue 2]

pards,

Thank you all for your comments. I assure you that every item I ship is of a consistant quality as the one before. Re: the contract variant shirts, I am hearing you all loud and clear. I will try to have them improve or I will discontinue. I will say, however, the homespun shirts are excellent.
I will try to get pictures of those posted.
Regards,

Ken Friedman

[Craig L Barry]

Paul:
Either way is fine with me. I am not looking for more cartridge boxes to evaluate and report on, but I am quite curious to see what the Provisional Supply Co "improved" box looks like now that additional information has come to light...and the pics on the website is not what the company is shipping now. I found have my notes from the first review, and they track with what is pictured on the website. Whether the specimen is representative of what they make now or if they are added to Approved Vendor list at some point is purely between the A-C Forum and Provisional Supply Company. There are good products available from sources who are not Approved Vendors, and of course, not every product from each Approved Vendor is always requisite quality. Hence, my only interest is to see what has been done here,and how this specimen compares to an original. I have to take them at their word that the piece is representative.

Inquiring minds want to know...And I'd like to know if a $62.95 box from Provisional Supply Company can take the Pepsi challenge with the real deal, or even the best hand sewn repro boxes on the market. I have handled and inspected samples of almost all of the boxes out there and have some idea of what is currently being produced. And I have seen some costly boxes that were really not all that well made, but not too many inexpensive boxes that were actually well made. And as they used to say of the Birmingham gun makers, nobody makes "best grade" weapons by hand all the time. Workmanship will vary.

[paulcalloway]

Re: the contract variant shirts, I am hearing you all loud and clear. I will try to have them improve or I will discontinue.

Ken -
Do you use fishing line in the construction of these shirts?

[CJDaley]

I like their silk flags. http://www.provisionalsupply.com/Flags.htm

[paulcalloway]

Moving Jno. Lloyd post and replies to his post to a NEW THREAD (http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15303).

[Benedict]

Any updates on this subject?

[purdy13bill]

Hope this is not too late as I'd like to come to Ken's aid here. I did a lot of research in the Delaware and Philly archives to make sure I bought the right stuff for my impression. Ken had that stuff. Maybe at one time quality was not up to snuff, but that's not the case now. Although I can't comment on what stitching is proper or not I can comment on the quality of the leather Ken uses for the accouterments. It is definitely not the cheap Paki stuff. The leather is properly dyed and marked with the appropriate contractor's stamp for the issuing Arsenal. Parts of the coats are sewn with a period civil war sewing machine and the rest by hand to include the button holes. Thread is period type, according to US Army Quartermaster specs. The trouser are of equal quality with parts of the trousers machine sewn and other parts hand sewn. All uniforms bear appropriate contractor stamps and size stamps. Lets face it, we're bigger today then they were in the 1860's, and a lot of guys today couldn't wear the sames sizes they did back then. So I guess some trade offs have to be made somewhere, so Ken's uniforms at least look authentic. I have had several inquiries about who made my uniforms because of the authentic look of the material, and NOT the AUTOMATIC MACHINE SEWN off the rack look. They NO WAY look like the suttler row and paki fuzzy wool look. Its quality workmanship and materials.

I'll be at High Tide this year, and if anyone wants, I'll make them available for examination. :D

Corporal Bill Purdy
Company G, 2nd Delaware Volunteers
"The Crazy Delawares"
Vincents Brigade

[lukegilly13]

Any more updates on the leather gear? More specifically an early war cap pouch?

[1st Maine Trooper]

A simple look at their web site will tell you all you need to know about their leather gear. It may be made from the best leather available on the market today, but it is still machine sewn with black thread.
It in no way is accurate for discussion on this board.

Dave Myrick

[lukegilly13]

Thanks Dave! I saw the pictures but from reading the discussion on this thread I thought they may be selling something different that was pictured! I guess I should of figured probably not haha!

[7thNJcoA]

Some members in our associate units have purchased their gear. I have noticed a very large inconsistency in the output. Some items are great and though still not at approved vendor standards are great repros. The boys who run this company are more than willing to meat with a unit rep at an event and show off some of their items. They often bring gear to events to sell from their tent. These are still active Reenactors so they do not set up sutler tents from what I have seen. Basically it is hit or miss. My advice don’t buy online buy in person so you can personally inspect the item.

Drew Ingram
7th NJ CO A
2nd Battalion
6th Marines
WIA: FALLUJAH, IRAQ

[Richmond Depot]

I have emailed these guys three times asking to be removed from their mailing list all to no avail. In fact, I never requested to be on their mailing list to begin with. After each request,I received a very lengthy response with a promise to be removed which has never happened.

[WestTN_reb]

They like you, Mr. Hanes.:D

[Jersey Blue 2]

Sir,

Forgive the fact that my email skill is at best amature. I certainly know you had asked to be removed but for some reason deleting you from my address book didn't seem to do the trick. By no means is it intentional that you were not removed. Hopefully this has been resolved.
ken