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Thomas Alleman
01-08-2008, 12:42 PM
I searched the forums and found nothing on what are good men's top hats and who makes a nice one. Also what is you thoughts on originals being used? Do what you see allot as in the way of an original not the correct period or is there not allot of difference in them. Please point me in the right direction.

Jeff Prechtel
01-08-2008, 12:49 PM
Thomas-

Tim Bender makes excellent, correct period headgear.
Contact him and tell him what you want. If you have
any visual reference to the style of top hat you want Tim will work
with you on a custom job. He also has a couple of styles available on his website.
Tim does quality work, is great to work with and delivers on time.

Tim's contact info is in the the approved vendor link

Best regards

CYoungJSU
01-08-2008, 01:03 PM
Thomas,

I agree that Tim Bender is the man to call. I ordered a shag top hat from him about a year ago and it is perfect! After speaking to him on the phone, I e-mailed a picture of a topper I wanted, and it came out wonderful. Take my word, his top hats are the best and most accurate I have seen. Plus, he is a super guy to work with.

Chris

fahtz
01-08-2008, 01:33 PM
As afra as what makes a good top hat, you must include eveything you do with other good perios headwear. Materials, constructions, shape, dimensions... Top hats are a little more tircky in that they became REALLY popular after the war and so many different styles were around. Tim makes the best two styles for our period, and can make them out of some sweet materials as well.

CYoungJSU
01-08-2008, 03:22 PM
Let's do a little comparative analysis. I have attached some thumbnails of the top hat Tim made for me as well as some daguerreotype images dating in the 1850-1860 range. I believe you can judge for yourself. I also have an original 1890s top hat, and it is considerably shorter in height and brim width. You may also want to consider Dr. Debbie Henderson's The Top Hat: An Illustrated History to get a better understanding of the top hats in use before, during, and after the war.

Chris

Motown
01-08-2008, 03:52 PM
Top hats are for nancies Tom :tounge_sm

However, I do recall seing a photograph of some prisoners from the Army of Tennesee maybe at Camp Douglas, where a dashing rogue is wearing a top-hat. There's a crop of part of it on Clearwater Hat's website. If I remember correctly there's a guy wearing a plaid shirt in the front row.

Does anyone else know this picture, or did I just make it up?

John Legg
01-08-2008, 04:50 PM
Brian white showed me a picture of two Federal soldiers that Cut their issue hats to look like top hats. Ill see if its still on my computer, if not ill look around for it. Its quite interesting!

John

Thomas Alleman
01-08-2008, 04:51 PM
Yeah no one in the MLK could wear one because they are for men of status and influence. Not your run of the mill, oK enough of that, HAHA. Yeah I see allot on Ebay and it s hard to recognize a period hat from latter. I know beaver hats are still popular but it seems silk is coming into fashion also. Well thanks for the pics.

Ian McWherter
01-09-2008, 01:54 AM
Good images Mr Young.:)

Many people don't realize, but the overwhelming majority of top hats worn in the mid-19th century were made from silk plush on a lacquered cotton or cardboard base. These were hugely popular and manufactured in Europe (principally in Lyons, France) and in the United States (American silk plush toppers were considered equal to the French) by the millions. The fact that you'll find 5 original silk plush top hats for every wool one, would suggest their popularity. What makes that statistic even more amazing is the fact that these silk plush hats were only meant to last about 3 months for city use and stronger ones, made for country use, were made to last about a year. After that you threw your hat in the trash and bought a new one. These hats were cheap and readily available, in fact the "cheaper" quality silk plush hats had a glossier shine so they were often preferred by "gents" and "dandies". We often forget that our mid-19th century forebearers lived in a disposable, materialistic consumer society as well.

When you look at original photographs there's no mistaking these silk hats, the shine is a dead give-away. No wool felt, I don't care how good the quality is or how much shellac you pour on it, can shine like that! The unfortunate problem is "hatter's plush" is no longer manufactured in the world today, the last company doing so was in Lyons, France in the 1980s. There was a falling out with the family that owned the company and the looms were destroyed (I heard that someone burned them). One of these days, if I can ever get caught up with my sewing:rolleyes:, I'm going to make one of these top hats out of some silk plush I managed to find.

That said, I'll join the chorus of individuals singing Tim Bender's praises. I too own one of his delectable shag body wool toppers and couldn't be happier.:D

CYoungJSU
01-09-2008, 01:07 PM
Now thinking of it, I believe two of those images should be attributed to you Mr. McWherter...:)

Motown
01-09-2008, 06:52 PM
I found it! On Wikipedia no less.

Here's the picture I remember seeing.

Check out the blade in the second row, second from right in the topper.

Does anyone know anything about this picture?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a2/ConfederateArmyPhoto.jpg

Ian McWherter
01-09-2008, 07:13 PM
Now thinking of it, I believe two of those images should be attributed to you Mr. McWherter...:)

No need, after all I found them while meandering around online. Both images were from ebay auctions of daguerreotypes, you can find some of the neatest Antebellum images on there.:)

BobRoeder
01-09-2008, 08:24 PM
I found it! On Wikipedia no less.

Here's the picture I remember seeing.

Check out the blade in the second row, second from right in the topper.

Does anyone know anything about this picture?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a2/ConfederateArmyPhoto.jpg

Frank L. Byrne, et al in The Image of War: Fighting for Time, Vol. 4, pp. 417-420, - seems to imply they are one group from a series of photos of Confederate prisoners at Camp Douglas. The specific photo is on pg. 420.

Thomas Alleman
01-09-2008, 08:39 PM
OK now the question of the hats sold on say Ebay are top hats, silk or beaver but telling what period they come from is well sometimes hard, sometimes not. Question is are they acceptable in the Civil War realm? And if so what do you look for?

CYoungJSU
01-09-2008, 09:42 PM
I just couldn't help myself in attaching these other two images. I really think the first image is very interesting considering the tapering of the crown, plus you can't help but love the overcoat and gloves. The second daguerreotype is of a "coachman" with whip.

Chris

MoFed
01-11-2008, 12:58 AM
http://www.thetophatshop.com/ has a history of the top hat as well drawings of them through the decades. However, their vintage silk plush top hats seem prohibitively expensive - even their fur felt tall topper is 349.95 pounds (roughly $700).

Charles D. Hoskins
Holmes Brigade USV, Inc.

Citizen_Soldier
01-11-2008, 07:51 PM
Chris,
The first photo you posted may not be a top hat but a high crown citizens hat of a style that was popular around the middle part of the century. It's such a neat image, thank you for sharing it!!

Darrek Orwig

Thomas Alleman
01-11-2008, 10:38 PM
OK lets make these plush silk toppers.

Ian McWherter
01-11-2008, 11:26 PM
OK lets make these plush silk toppers.

The only problem with that, like I said, is nobody in the world today still makes traditional hatter's plush. The last company doing so quit in the 1980s and the looms were destroyed. Since there are no more looms to produce this fabric, and the cost of building new ones would be an enormous investment, it's doubtful that anyone ever will again. That's why talented hatters today, like Tim Bender, have to use wool felt for their hats instead of silk.

There are some long pile pure silk velvet fabrics available today that could be used to replicate the look of real silk plush, but they'll never look quite the same (they are also very expensive). For anyone interested in obtaining hatter's plush I recommend you check into vintage fabric dealers, there are still cuts of this cloth floating around. You'll likely pay a fortune for it, but that fortune will certainly be smaller than purchasing an original 1850s silk plush top hat. These are also difficult hats to manufacture requiring years of experience.

So far I only know of one individual who has successfully reproduced one of these silk hats (he used a cardboard base after a mid-19th century original in his collection) and that's Jim Miller of Columbia, CA. David Peebles, Judith Peebles (Drygoods on this forum) husband is the proud owner, it's a real work of art.

Emmanuel Dabney
01-11-2008, 11:48 PM
Mrs. Peebles, if you're paying attention to this thread, could you be so kind as to post a photo of your husband's silk hat?

Ian McWherter
01-11-2008, 11:58 PM
Mrs. Peebles, if you're paying attention to this thread, could you be so kind as to post a photo of your husband's silk hat?

David's worn that poor hat to death over the decade (at least) that he's owned it. It has some spots where the pile's worn on it, but hey, that just adds character.:) I thought for a while that it was a well seasoned original. I'm not sure if Jim used genuine hatter's plush for it, though he does own some of his own.

Hey I just realized I have a picture of David's top hat that Jim made for him, I hope Judith doesn't mind. The picture, which includes Edwin Sims (green frock coat) and David (stripped vest), was taken at the 2005 Columbia Diggins event, which recreates the town of Columbia, CA in 1852. Judith ran the finest boarding house this gentleman has ever stayed at! Ed is wearing a shag body wool topper from Tim Bender, David is wearing Jim's silk topper, you can really see the difference in shine and texture:

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t76/Ian_McWherter/DSC01785.jpg

Emmanuel Dabney
01-12-2008, 12:35 AM
Thanks Ian. I'm sure Mrs. P won't mind your pic as the hat is cool and I want one!

My Bender topper is beaver fur, but yeah the shine of the silk isn't there.

CYoungJSU
01-13-2008, 02:56 PM
I have attached a very interesting article referring to the hat manufacturing business William Rankin, Sr. started in Newark, N.J., around 1811.

THE EASTERN CLARION [PAULDING, MS], August 3, 1859, p. 1, c. 6
The following description of a great manufacturing establishment at the North, will, we doubt not, be read with very general interest. Those who wish to understand the modus operandi of Hat manufacturing, and read an account of the largest establishment of the kind in the United States, will find this article worth a perusal. We visited the factory of Messrs. Duryee, Jaques & co., during our late trip to New York, and can vouch for the correctness of what the writer says:

Hats, Caps and Straw Goods.
Duryee, Jaques & Co.,
[Late Rankin, Duryee & Co., Manufacturers and Wholesale Dealers,]

Warehouse, 27 Chambers Street, N. Y.
Factory, Beaver Street, Newark, N. J.
When we claim for this extensive hat manufacturing establishment the credit of being undoubtedly the oldest and largest in the United States, and probably the largest in the world, we may be thought to incline somewhat to exaggeration, by those who are not familiar with the statistics of the Hat trade; but those who are posted up in this particular will concede with readiness, that our premises are true.
The founder of this immense concern was Mr. William Rankin, of Newark, N. J., who commenced the business about fifty years ago, in Newark, where he still resides, though, many years since, he retired from active life; and where he lives in the retirement of a green old age, an unblemished reputation and a vast fortune. Mr. Rankin is, we believe, about seventy-five years of age. The manufactory has always been situated in Newark, where originally all the sales were made, but as the excellence of the manufactures became known, the trade so extended as to induce the proprietor to establish his main store in Maiden Lane, New York.
In 1835 the name of the house was changed to William Rankin & Co. In 1840 it was again altered to William Rankin, Duryee & Co., and in 1856 to the present title, Duryee, Jaques & Co. In the course of time the location of the sales in New-York was removed from Maiden Lane to the Washington Stores on William Street, and from there, where they remained for several years, they removed to the new, spacious and costly warehouse, 27 Chambers Street, where they were the first tenants of the building and have remained about five years. This warehouse is one of a splendid block at the head of the street, presenting an iron columned stone front, and constructed in the most approved modern style of wholesale warehouses, comprising long, broad, and lofty apartments, richly and commodiously finished, and furnished with ample light from both ends, and the most convenient modern fixtures, etc. some idea of the magnitude of the salesrooms may be had from the fact that they comprise four lofts, one hundred and fifty-one feet long by thirty broad, the lower floor being devoted to counting rooms and a vast display of specimen stock, the others being crowded with piles of cases and other wholesale packages of finished and unfinished goods, legitimately pertaining to the trade of Hats, Caps and Straw Goods of every current variety.
In the second loft is the Bonnet Department, where a large number of female operatives are engaged in the manufacture of the richest and most fashionable varieties in this department, and where may be seen a large and valuable supply of all the most approved Paris, London, and New-York styles, together with a choice assortment of umbrellas, parasols, trimmings, &c.
Interested in obtaining an exact knowledge of the modus operandi of the hat trade in all its branches, we not long since paid a visit to the factory of Messrs. Duryee, Jaques & Co., in Newark, and passed through nearly every apartment in all the buildings it comprises; and we can give no better idea of the amount and variety of the inexhaustible supply of goods at their warehouse in Chambers Street, than by relating what we saw at the factory.
This establishment is situated on Beaver Street, in Newark, and comprises half a dozen large brick buildings, with many minor ones, the whole covering an area of about three-fourths of an acre of ground. The firm are the largest real estate owners in the city of Newark. They give employment, in the various departments of their mammoth establishment, to about six hundred male and female artisans;* and we are assured that their is the only place in the country where the manufacture of hats begins with the beginning; that is—where the fur is first taken from the skins of the animals—the beaver; the nutria (an amphibious South American animal, closely resembling the beaver, and the fur of which is finer, and next in merit to that of the beaver and sea otter); the sea otter; sheep, from all parts of the world—Spain, Saxony, South America, Cape of Good Hope, Australia, etc., and after being, by chemical and other means, removed from the skins, is put through all the various processes which eventuate in the production of multifarious coverings for the fastidious head of man.
-----------------
*Occasionally in this article the number of operatives we saw in the shops is specified. It should be understood, however, that ordinarily full double that number are employed; and that, notwithstanding the temporary abatement in that number, Messrs. Duryee, Jaques & Co. transact by far the largest business in their line in the United States. No account has been given of the very large number of operatives who receive constant employment from this establishment, and who take the materials and work at home.
-------------------
Passing up the yard, from Beaver Street, we entered a five story brick building, throughout which we observed numerous groups of men and boys, busily plying their trade amid clouds of vapor and dust, and the deafening whirl and racket and jar of various machinery.
First Floor.—This was the forming room for hats, and contained two fur forming machines, driven by the 100 horse-power steam engine, which drives all the machinery of the Factory, and attended by some ten men and boys.
Second Floor.—This is called the wool department, and in it are engaged about eighteen men. Large piles of wool hat bodies, and no less than five wool forming machines were the characteristics of this room.
Third Floor.—Three fur blowing machines are here kept in operation for the purpose of separating the hairs (which are stiff and worthless) from the fur.—About two ounces of hair is separated from every pound of fur.
Fourth Floor.—This comprises the wool picking room, and contains two ingenious machines for that purpose, and also another for dressing the wool. A rear apartment on this floor is termed the pouncing room, where a pouncing machine serves the purpose of powdering, and where a large beaver machine is employed in dressing the beaver fur.
Fifth Floor.—In this loft, which is reserved for drying wool, are some twenty larger bins of black and white wool, undergoing the drying process, and also a pressing machine for the compact packing of bodies of hats. The black-dyed American wool is for a coarse kind of felt hats.
In a shed attached to the ground floor of the building, is the wool-hardening room, where a hardening machine is used for pounding the bodies, which are previously placed in steam boxes, and steamed through. Adjoining is a wool-washing room, where are cleansed piles of wool as it is taken from the sheep. Here also we noticed a steam pump and well for supplying this building with water.
On passing through several of the outbuildings, we noticed the "plank shop" for wool hats, a laboratory in which were seven large kettles, where a number of workmen were engaged at that branch of the business. Here were also three patent sizing machines, and one unpatented, besides a blocking kettle, etc.
Adjacent is the wool hat drying room, occupied by long rows of hat-racks, where hundreds of hats were undergoing the drying process, which is performed by gradual heat. The carpenter's shop is close at hand, as also the blacksmith's shop and the stables, where are stalled nine or ten horses belonging to the establishment, used for drawing loads of goods from the factory to the warehouse in the city, and for conveying supplies of coal to the coal yard from the city.
We next visited a three-story brick building, the basement of which contained the
Fur Vault.—This is a subterranean apartment, appropriated exclusively for the storage of Furs, of all kinds used in the making of hats. It is a large fireproof cavern; and is valued as a place for the safe-keeping of this important part of the stock of the Factory, which not very long ago suffered a heavy loss by fire. The greatest precautions against the recurrence of such a calamity are now observed, and one of the sheds contains a fire-engine, purchased for the exclusive use of the firm in case of fire, while the buildings are amply supplied with fire-buckets.
The Seam Room.—The steam engine of the establishment is also in a basement room, and is of one hundred horse-power. It drives all the steam machinery of the various buildings, with which its apparatus is connected. Adjoining is the steam-boiler room.
The Planking shop for Hats.—In this department the fur hat bodies, formed, but still in the rough state, are subjected to the scalding operation. Six sets of planking kettles were in active operation when we entered this subterrene and vaporous abode of skillful and industrious mechanics. l(About fifty or sixty operatives of all kinds are employed in this building.)
The Coloring Shop.—In this place, which is in the basement, there were, in all, seven large coloring kettles—four of copper, and three of wood. The largest is capable of holding, at one time, five hundred hats; the smallest seventy-two. The hats receive, on an average, from six to ten dips, according to the quality of shade required; a dip lasting half an hour. A black hat requires eight or ten hours of immersion. In this dingy laboratory are prepared and bestowed those innumerable shades and colors which diversify the appearance of the head coverings of man. The hues are indeed countless in this.—Here also we noticed an invention for washing hat bodies, adopted and contrived by one of the members of the firm. This vast hat washing apparatus is worked by steam, and ordinarily washes, in three clean waters, hot and cold, in twenty-five minutes, fifty dozen hat bodies, and is capable of achieving much more. The water used is Passaic. An immense water tank occupies a large part of the coloring shop, in one corner and in another is the Gas Apparatus, by which the firm manufacture all the gas required in all their buildings, supplying three or four hundred lights.
Other apartments in this building are variously known as the Shaving Room, Singeing Room, Stiffening Room, Fur Drying Room, and the Steaming Room; and in all of these, as indeed, throughout the manufactory, we remarked the adroit, prompt and au fait manner in which the throngs of artisans performed their chosen parts. We have had the pleasure of visiting many large manufactories in different parts of the country, and we take pleasure in this opportunity for saying that we have never met with a body of artisans less exceptionable than these, in deportment, or apparently taking more pride in their avocation; they thus evincing the presence of an esprit du corps, which is indispensable to excellence in any art; and which generally denotes the possession of that excellence.
Passing into another building, we found, upon the
First Floor, the fur and silk finishing room, with a fine room adjoining, for the heating of irons red hot, a fiery succession of which are constantly called for by the constantly replenished stock of goods to be finished in this manner.
Second Floor.—This floor is exclusively appropriated for the finishing, and in this and the other rooms in the building, about sixty workmen are at present engaged.
Third Floor.—The operation of silk body ironing is entirely carried on in this shop, the heated irons furnished from the flues below.
Fourth Floor.—The whole of the loft is set apart for the packing and storing of goods in cases.
Crossing over to the middle brick building, which is five stories high, we took a cursory glance of each section, everywhere finding something novel and interesting, and everywhere becoming impressed with the number and intricacy of the details of the business, and the magnitude of its amount.
First Floor.—Here are two spacious wool hat finishing rooms, a wool hat drying room, and the machine shop, where is repaired and built the machinery of the whole concern.
Second Floor.—The curling room for giving every requisite bend to the hat brims, is located here; also the inspecting and packing room, the silk cutting room, and a variety of minor store rooms.
Third Floor.—Upon this floor there are three fine tuning rooms, where one hundred and fifty girls are at present engaged in the delicate finishing departments of lining, banding, tipping and binding hats.
Fourth Floor.—Here is a spacious straw hat room, at certain seasons crowded with various descriptions of straw hat and cap goods; a cap room, and a tip-printing room, in which are used four printing machines of various sorts.
Fifth floor.—Here is an immense wool dyeing room, lined with racks from floor to ceiling, laden with the soft, warm, and light material; and at hand are two vast water tanks, provided in case of fire on this floor.
The next and last of the building which we entered for inspection, was the front building, a five-story brick structure like the last.
First Floor.—This comprises the general packing room of the whole factory, and from hence continually pour a flood of packages destined for the warehouse in New York, and ultimately for all parts of this country and for distant foreign parts.
Second Floor.—Cutting and storing rooms with two roomy and commodious counting offices embrace the whole of this section.
Third Floor.—The apartments associated on this loft are a trimming room for wool hats, and a smaller one for silks, broadcloths, and other requisite piece goods used in making caps, trimmings, bindings, tips, etc.
Fourth Floor.—This is used solely as a wholesale store room for full packages of finished goods.
Fifth Floor.—Immense piles of huge bales of wool encumbering this apartment denote it to be the great wool storing room of the factory.
From a perusal of what we have thus noted down, the reader may gather a good conception of the giant trade carried on by the house of Duryee, Jaques & Co., 27 Chambers street. Their operations, naturally are not so unrestrained as usual, owing to the yet unrestored fullness of the tides of trade; but their staunch and long renowned establishment is still steadily conducted upon a plan of great magnitude, with unabated credit, and still sustains that undoubting confidence in the minds of the monetary and commercial community, which was early acquired by the honored founder of their house, and which by their manufactures and their bargains, they have won and enjoyed themselves.



CY

Kooner
01-19-2008, 03:26 PM
Great article Cy. Thank You.