19th Century Products Discussion

[Johnny Lloyd]

Citizens:

As we know, the purpose of the AC is to improve our impression as well as build a repository of knowledge of 19th century citizen/militaria culture. Therefore, I feel we should be responsible users of the AC and we should each contribute positively to the site with constructive discussion.

Well, here's my 2 cents worth... perhaps this thread will become a single-repository for our information on the below topic:

I have not seen an actual solely-dedicated thread to a general-merchandising store/sutler products discussion. Yes, I have used the search engine. :)

Basically, based upon research with citations what were some of the products you might find at a sutler/"general-merchandising" store for the period? Now, you and I know the obvious generic kinds of items (salt, sugar, flour, candies, etc.) but how about specific items and brands of items invented/patented/in "common" use in the 19th century?

I ask the above question because when packing for W64 recently, I found myself questioning some items as to their being exactly period to 1864, in this instance.

Examples: Borden's Condensed Milk, mushroom ketchup, uses of rubber, polymer invention, etc.

Here's mine... I have long debated whether or not Uneeda Biscuits (trademarked by Nabisco in the 1890s, but invented way earlier) could be used at an event as an example of commercially-produced "crackers".

Bring something to the table... no pun intended ;) ... and it doesn't have to be a food product.

I figured the citizens on here might enjoy this chance to put some of their thoughts/evidence down for all to enjoy and reference.

Your thoughts?

Thanks- Johnny

PS- Good stuff about the history of cookies with specific historical references:
http://whatscookingamerica.net/History/CookieHistory.htm

[Hank Trent]

That's a big topic! Especially when you're talking about brand names and packaging, not just categories of items. Some stuff is going to be under the same valuable brand name virtually nationwide, like Brandreth's Pills, others would be from the nearest wholesaler or manufacturer, like nails or rope, and might be packaged with or without a brand name.

At the Ohio Historical Society several years ago, we copied receipts and shipping records for a local store, Henking's in Gallipolis, Ohio, a small river city of a few thousand people.

Below are some examples. They show what wholesalers or manufacturers the store was purchasing from, but don't always indicate a brand name nor do they indicate what the consumer packaging was like, if any.

In other words, in the first example, the barrel of coffee from the wholesaler was presumably set in the store and the coffee was scooped out, weighed and placed in the customer's packaging, but did the customer think of it (or see a sign/label) indicating it was only generic rio coffee (no brand), or rio coffee from the Cincinnati Spice Mills (importer's brand), or rio coffee from Henking's store (retailer's brand)?

Some things were clearly sold with a brand name, like "Barlow's Indigo Blue," and I'd guess they were packaged and labelled as such for the consumer, but how about that baking powder, where the manufacturer lists no brand names for any of their chemicals or soap? Bulk unlabeled sales, or packaged brand name sales?

Here are the examples:

From Cincinnati Spice Mills, Harrison & Wilson, Manufacturers and Dealers, the store purchased a barrel of "Roasted Rio Coffee" Aug. 16, 1860. The letterhead lists other items that Cincinnati Spice Mills sold, which presumable would have been available for the store to purchase wholesale also, if interested: IXL, Prem. & Kentucky Mustard, Lightning Yeast or Baking Powder, Tomato Catsup, Pepper Sauce, Kingsford's Oswego Corn and Silver Gloss Starch, Barlow's Indigo Blue, Kellogg's Indigo Blue, Dixon's Stove Polish.

From L. L. Harding, Wholesale Grocer, Commission and Forwarding Merchant, Cincinnati, the store bought six boxes of cheese and three boxes of ham, Aug. 9, 1860. The letterhead of the wholesaler also says "Western Produce Depot, agent for the sale of Western Reserve [a geographic location in Ohio, not a brand name] cheese, butter, dried fruit, fish, and D.H. Lamb's and TH. [sic] M. Harding's pure saleratus."

From H. Bishoprick & Co., Cincinnati, St. Louis and Chicago, Importers of Cream tartar, Bi-Carb. Soda, Sal Soda, Castile Soap &c., the store bought 13 1/2 doz. [no unit listed] of Baking Powder for $44.55 plus 25 cents for a box, Aug. 2, 1860

From John Bonte & Co., Cincinnati, manufacturers and wholeseale dealers in hemp, manilla, cotton and tarred cordage, the store bought 10 bales of oakum, 2 reels of sash cord, and 2 coils "m. [manilla?] rope," Aug. 2, 1860.

From Casey & Mitchell, Pittsburgh, wholesale dealers in variety goods, the store bought hairpins, thread, steel pens, combs, etc., July 8, 1860. The letter head says they're importers and wholesale jobbers in variety goods, threads, spool cotton, buttons, pins and needles, cutler, jewelry, watches, &c.

From Peters, James & Co., Ironton Ohio, the store bought 27 kegs nails, June 15, 1855. Though it's earlier, it illustrates a local source for nails: there were iron furnaces in Ironton processing local iron ore, about fifty miles away. Peter, James & Co. were "manufacturers of every variety of nails, spikes and brads."

Coming from New York, May 5, 1863, the store had shipped by the B&O Railroad from John Laden, one case of merchandise, one bundle clo. [clothes?] baskets, two bundles willow baskets, and five coils of rope.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[Johnny Lloyd]

Hank-

Always the "wise sage" of the AC... ;)

Great stuff for a topic! This discussion is what I was looking for. Perhaps we can record specifics here...

Material culture is so fascinating- it really fleshes-out the period. Names, places, dates, documentation and evidence of material culture... etc.

We always have to remember there was a whole world wrapped around the American Civil War that our mind's eye must see to interpret events correctly and thoroughly within living history.

Good kickoff... anyone willing to run with the ball?

;) -Johnny

[VIrginia Mescher]

Citizens:

Basically, based upon research with citations what were some of the products you might find at a sutler/"general-merchandising" store for the period? Now, you and I know the obvious generic kinds of items (salt, sugar, flour, candies, etc.) but how about specific items and brands of items invented/patented/in "common" use in the 19th century?

Here's mine... I have long debated whether or not Uneeda Biscuits (trademarked by Nabisco in the 1890s, but invented way earlier) could be used at an event as an example of commercially-produced "crackers".

Bring something to the table... no pun intended ;) ... and it doesn't have to be a food

I've done extensive research on company beginnings, brand names of foods, and their introduction. Some of the research was published in my booklet, Did They Eat That? , which is available on our website in the modern book section.

One thing to remember is that even if a item was in production does not mean that it was available all over the country. For example, Ghirardelli Chocolate was making chocolate in CA but it is doubtful that it was available on the east coast while French and English chocolate would have been imported to the east coast.

While the brand name "Undeeda Biscuits" are not period, they are very similar to many other crackers sold in bulk at the time period but they were the first sold in small packages. Nabisco "Pilot" crackers are also similar to those sold in bulk. The thick Westminster, Bremmer, OTC (Original Trenton Crackers), and Common Crackers (sold by Vermont Country Store) and all period crackers that are sold today.

Other recognizable brand names of the period that I've documented are Baker's chocolate, Lea & Perrins Worcestershire Sauce, Borden's Condensed Milk, Coleman's Mustard, Kingsford Cornstarch, and Schraff's candy.

Although a number of beer companies were established before 1865 they would have been regional. Most flour companies were also regional.

Studying store ledgers and newspaper ads is a great way to find brand names of products. Unfortunately most of the brand items are lost but occasionally one will find a gem. Sometimes storekeepers will list a brand name, especially for patent medicines but that does us little good now. Many historic newspapers are now on-line and it is becoming easier to do research on material culture and to be able to see the regional differences is much less cumbersome.

[AZReenactor]

Great stuff. Now if I can just find out what they were selling and where exactly I can start looking for ways to incoroporate Ghiradelli Chocolate into my 1st California Infantry impression. I wonder if they ship to the Arizona Territory?...

For example, Ghirardelli Chocolate was making chocolate in CA but it is doubtful that it was available on the east coast while French and English chocolate would have been imported to the east coast.

[VIrginia Mescher]

Great stuff. Now if I can just find out what they were selling and where exactly I can start looking for ways to incoroporate Ghiradelli Chocolate into my 1st California Infantry impression. I wonder if they ship to the Arizona Territory?...

Their chocolate products probably consisted of cocoa, baking chocolate, and cocoa nibs. Most chocolate, especially in the US were only those products and the technology for eating chocolate had not been developed.

The Mexican style chocolate found in the ethnic sections of groceries is very similar in texture to that made in the US during the 1850s and 1860s. The conching technique that makes a smooth, velvety, melt-in-your mouth eating chocolate was not yet here so the solid chocolate had a slightly grainy texture. It was somewhat bitter, like the baking chocolate we use today. It was used in cooking and making beverages.

[amity]

Article on condensed milk.
http://homecooking.about.com/od/milkproducts/a/canmilkhistory.htm

Someone had said that what was called "condensed milk" in 1860s was more similar to our evaporated milk, i.e. without sugar, but according to this article that is not so. It was thick and sweet.

[Johnny Lloyd]

Virginia-

Your post above reminded me how hard (or easy) it can be to locate modern items that have the same look/feel/equivalent of their 1860's counterparts for living history or even as PEC haversack/knapsack fare for certain events in certain locations.

Perhaps we can additionally expand this thread toward identifying companies/products that are still in existance to make searching for these items easier for those on the forum?

Thanks... good discussion.

-Johnny Lloyd

[Jeff Prechtel]

I'm sure Tabasco or hot sauce of some sort
dates to ACW time frame McIlhenney's dates to
post CW, but I'm sure there had to be some sort
of a chili sauce around during the war....i can't
believe McIlhenny just invented that in 1868.

Anybody have any research on useage that dates to wartime?

[shmhistorylive]

Add to that the cargos of the steamboats "Arabia" (1856) http://www.1856.co and the steamboat "Bertrand" (1865) http://www.fws.gov/Refuges/generalInterest/steamBoatBertrand.html ad well as the contents of the gunboat "Cairo" http://www.nps.gov/archive/vick/cairo/cairo.htm and you have at least the beginnings of a snap shot of what was available.

[Rmhisteach]

Johnny,

If you have interest in period canned goods etc. You need to go to Kansa City , Mo and check out the steamboat arabia mueseum. They call themseleves the equilivelant of an 1850's Wal Mart. Really awesome. Pickels that are still green and edible. Really cool. I too am interested in period labels and caned goods.

RM

http://www.1856.com/

[VIrginia Mescher]

I'm sure Tabasco or hot sauce of some sort
dates to ACW time frame McIlhenney's dates to
post CW, but I'm sure there had to be some sort
of a chili sauce around during the war....i can't
believe McIlhenny just invented that in 1868.

Anybody have any research on useage that dates to wartime?

There were bottles of pepper sauce on both the Steamboats Arabia (1856) and Bertrand (1865) but not the "Tabasco" brand. McIlhenny didn't invent the sauce, he just popularized it to the extent that it became a household name that survives today. He also had all the raw ingredients at hand - the peppers and the salt so all he needed was the vinegar.

Both pepper sauce and Worcestershire sauce were listed in the ledger I transcribed for Historic Accounts (1859 -1861)

There are a number of "store sauce" recipes in cookbooks that mimic store bought sauces of the time period but I'm not sure if there was similar pepper sauce to Tabasco since it has to sit for three years. It is not something that I've researched but many different sauces were in period cookbooks.

[VIrginia Mescher]

Article on condensed milk.
http://homecooking.about.com/od/milkproducts/a/canmilkhistory.htm

Someone had said that what was called "condensed milk" in 1860s was more similar to our evaporated milk, i.e. without sugar, but according to this article that is not so. It was thick and sweet.

Borden developed and sold both condensed (like our evaporated milk) and preserved milk (sweetened condensed milk). The period condensed milk did not keep very long and that is why he experimented and was ultimately successful with the sweetened condensed milk. The sugar helped preserve the milk.

[Johnny Lloyd]

I'm sure Tabasco or hot sauce of some sort
dates to ACW time frame McIlhenney's dates to
post CW, but I'm sure there had to be some sort
of a chili sauce around during the war....i can't
believe McIlhenny just invented that in 1868.

Anybody have any research on useage that dates to wartime?

According to their website: www.tabasco.com

Sowing the Seeds
According to family tradition, TABASCO® brand Pepper Sauce was created in the mid-to-late 1860s by Edmund McIlhenny. A food lover and avid gardener, McIlhenny was given seeds of Capsicum frutescens peppers that had come from Mexico or Central America. On Avery Island in south Louisiana, he sowed the seeds, nurtured the plants, and delighted in the spicy flavor of the peppers they bore.

Invented in the mid to late 1860s, but the company was not founded until 1868.

I've seen pepper sauce elsewhere in references before. See Hank's earlier post on this thread. I would think pepper sauce like it would have been period-correct, just not brand name.

You could bring pepper sauce to an event in a period, nondescript bottle, I'd think. ;)

Great Steamboat Arabia website! I loved the video and pictures. Even though I have heard of the museum, I thought I was looking at reproductions in some of the pics.

Thanks- Johnny

[Material Culture]

Canned Lobster was one of those things that left New England and made it all the way across the US. Champagne from France and Lobster is one of the things I would like to see at more events. If I could only find a Label.

Sam Hayle
Delicacy Mess

[Johnny Lloyd]

Canned Lobster was one of those things that left New England and made it all the way across the US. Champagne from France and Lobster is one of the things I would like to see at more events. If I could only find a Label.

Sam Hayle
Delicacy Mess

Sam,

Yep, I think it is a good point... we don't see enough unusual canned goods at events in period cans (oysters, clams, lobster, beef, etc.) probably due to food safety issues, but if one really intrepid quality vendor decides to do it... I'd buy some to open at an event with my bayonet any day... that would be a neat experience, but probably heavy in one's knapsack. ;)

Let's just hope what is inside is not as scary as what one might think!

Couldn't be worse than Iraqi food I ate...:eek:

-Johnny Lloyd

[Hank Trent]

I've seen pepper sauce elsewhere in references before. See Hank's earlier post on this thread. I would think pepper sauce like it would have been period-correct, just not brand name.

You could bring pepper sauce to an event in a period, nondescript bottle, I'd think.

Yes, if it were homemade. But what about commercial pepper sauces sold by the bottle? Why are we assuming they'd have no brand name label?

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[Johnny Lloyd]

Yes, if it were homemade. But what about commercial pepper sauces sold by the bottle? Why are we assuming they'd have no brand name label?

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

Hank:

Meant referencing the "Tabasco" brand name, as it wasn't period. Period labels would definitely be neat to see for any appropriate product...

I should have said above:

"You could possibly bring Tabasco pepper sauce to an event in a period, nondescript bottle, I'd think. Get rid of the post-war brand name and the ingredients would mostly be the same as just about any prewar pepper sauce, I'd suppose. Some might debate the tabasco receipe as an authentic one, though."

But the computer won't let me edit the blane thing... infernal machine.

Sorry I wasn't clear... ;)

-Johnny Lloyd

[ElizabethClark]

One very quick terminology note to the discussion:

A "sutler" is a very specific thing--a contractor who sold sanctioned items to military persons. As such, there is no citizen sutler.

Merchants, however, serve all sorts. So, we're talking about merchants, and what they had available, and at what costs, and when, and where. :)

And, I'll try to find some interesting bits that actually contribute to the discussion later in the week. :)

[Army30th]

This is part of an Act instituted by the Government (US), as to the items that could be available from a "sutler", but I assume those same items could be had at a general mercantile :

(I got this from a post that Bob Sullivan had made)


Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That the inspectors-general of the Army shall constitute a board of officers, whose duty it shall be to prepare, immediately after the passage of this act, a list or schedule of the following articles which may be sold by sutlers to the officers and soldiers of the volunteer service, to wit: Apples, dried apples, oranges, figs, lemons, butter, cheese, milk, syrup, molasses, raisins, candles, crackers, wallets, brooms, comforters, boots, pocket looking glasses, pins, gloves, leather, tin wash basins, shirt buttons, horn and brass buttons, newspapers, books, tobacco, cigars, pipes, matches, blacking, blacking brushes, clothes brushes, tooth brushes, hair brushes, coarse and fine combs, emery, crocus, pocket handkerchiefs, stationery, armor oil, sweet oil, rotten stone, razor strops, razors, shaving soap, soap, suspenders, scissors, shoe strings, needles, thread, knives, pencils, and Bristol brick. Said list or schedule shall be subject, from time to time, to such revision and change as, in the judgment of the said board, the good of the service may require: Provided, always, That no intoxicating liquors shall at any time be contained therein, or the sale of such liquors be in any way authorized by said board. A copy of said list or schedule, and of any subsequent change therein, together with a copy of this act, shall be, without delay, furnished by said board to the commanding officer of each brigade and of each regiment not attached to any brigade in the volunteer service, and also to the Adjutant General of the Army.


Take "toothbrushes" on this list: H. N. Wadsworth received a patent for a toothbrush in the US between 1850 and 1857, but mass production didn't begin until 20 years after the war. (Toothbrushes were used in other parts of the world way before this, however).

[Drygoods]

we don't see enough unusual canned goods at events in period cans (oysters, clams, lobster, beef, etc.) probably due to food safety issues, but if one really intrepid quality vendor decides to do it... I'd buy some to open at an event with my bayonet


Mr. Lloyd,
What you suggest takes a good deal of work/time, money, and paperwork. My husband started doing exactly what you've suggested 17 years ago. We used to sell period foods in antique bottles. The two best selling pepper sauces that we sold were the Blue Bird, and the Wells, Miller, & Prevost brands.

We also used to sell roast veal which came in a size number 10 can, which would hold nearly 4 pounds of meat depending on how tightly it was packed and how well it sealed up. Needless to say, the instructions on the lovely red painted can said to use a hammer and chisel to open (exactly like the original label).

We also did hardtack with the logo of P&M Bakery, New York. This was not one that we took strictly from historical sources, but was named for the two men that designed the logo and steel stamps to make the crackers. They were good, seldom spoiled, and could be eaten even years after baking.

We also did bottled brandied peaches, cherries, pickles, peppers, plus an assortment of liquor bottles filled with tea. Suffice it to say, we spent a good deal of work in a hired commercial kitchen, plus endless hours getting these things approved for sale. As for the meat, that one had to go out with a commercial disclaimer that they were intended for interpretive visual use only. This was to protect us from lawsuits because would you eat meat from a tin can painted with lead looking paint inside and out? Our county still has oil based paints so they had the proper look.

Yes, you can make a fantastic product, but if no one is willing to buy it, why bother? Trust me, it costs a good amount of money to purchase the correct bottles, sometimes searching for months to get enough of them to do a 'run' of any food product line. Next was the cost of the commercial kitchen, and the paperwork for the labels which my husband did a copyright, plus getting the health department to agree with you that this was a good idea for interpretive use by teaching kids history.

I would probably do it all again though, that is if I could afford to do so. What really hurt with all the work my husband did was finding rotten sutlers simply copying his labels and sticking them on any can or bottle, most of his work was hand lettered, so it took him hours what it took them minutes to copy. I suppose if my husband ever gets his sight back, I might get him to attempt it again. I'd like to think he would, as someday before I die I want those d*mn bottles out of the garage.

Mr. Lloyd, there are plenty of really talented folks out there in the world, some folks who are private collectors will amaze you with their knowledge, and the oddities that they collect. Just be careful what you wish for, you might get it.:wink_smil If I could get my husband to join the forum, I'm sure he could tell you page upon page of how to, and how much work it takes.

If you want to do it yourself, here's a tip....the best place for buying original bottles we found was Gordonsville VA, which is a l-o-n-g way from CA!:D

[David Swarens]

Hello.

Just a note on "Pepper Sauce."


The pepper sauce (or at least some of it) from the Steamboat Arabia appears to have been small green whole chilies/peppers in vinegar, put up in aqua "cathedral" style bottles, such as those reproduced by Dog River Glassworks.

A pretty good photo of these appears on page 136 of "Treasure in a Cornfield," by Greg Hawley, one of the books on the 1856 Arabia.

This is similar to what I have seen in modern restaurants in the great state of Georgia, where we embarrassed ourselves by eating the peppers themselves, being from California.
It seems most of the locals use the vinegar as the "sauce," and reuse the chilies with fresh vinegar, so we got some attention as a result.

The color may have changed in the century and a half, but the modern ones are just about the same green.

No information on the red pulverized sauces, such as "Tabasco," (that brand I believe dated to 1868 on the label) which certainly probably represents another period practice, but rather just a note of another path to a documented period pepper sauce.

Yours for peppers,
David Swarens

[Army30th]

"Tobasco" brand pepper sauce is made in Avery Island, Louisiana. Peppers are ground up into a mash with vinegar and salt and aged in whiskey barrels for three years.

Only been in production since 1868.

[VIrginia Mescher]

Hello.

Just a note on "Pepper Sauce."


The pepper sauce (or at least some of it) from the Steamboat Arabia appears to have been small green whole chilies/peppers in vinegar, put up in aqua "cathedral" style bottles, such as those reproduced by Dog River Glassworks.

A pretty good photo of these appears on page 136 of "Treasure in a Cornfield," by Greg Hawley, one of the books on the 1856 Arabia.

David Swarens

This type if pepper sauce is usually available in the ethnic section of most grocery stores and Goya makes one version.

In looking at cookbooks, the pepper sauce recipes that started appearing in the 1850 most referred to using Cayenne peppers, packing them in a bottle, adding a small amount of sugar and salt, then filling the bottle with vinegar, and letting it stand for a day or two before using. It could be replenished with vinegar until the strength of the peppers was exhausted. ( American Cotton Planter 1853). Other recipes that called themselves pepper sauce were more like a pepper relish that was a mixture of chopped peppers, cabbage, horeshradish, salt, mustard seed, spices and vinegar ( What I Know or Hints on the Daily Duties of a Housekeeper 1856); or a powder of ginger, cinnamon, black pepper, nutmeg and Jamaica pepper [allspice], cloves, and salt, which was added to brown sauces (The American Matron (1851).

It seems that Tabasco sauce was not really called "pepper sauce." In grocer's handbooks, it was not listed under pepper sauce and had a separate listing under Tabasco. At one time it was sold in powdered form, not just in the liquid. ( Grocer's Encyclopedia 1911).

[Silvana Siddali]

The Library of Congress American Memory site has a lot of fascinating info about period labels, as well as other printed ephemera that you can download & print.

First, check out the "advertising" collections -- try searching by date or by product.
http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/collections/advertising/

You'll see some great labels for tins, boxes, or jars. To the best of my knowledge these aren't copyrighted.

While you're at the Am. Mem. site, you might also check out the ephemera (which can be searched by state and by year):

http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/rbpehtml/pemap.html

[Jim Miller]

Greetings All,
Nothing gets me excited like a lively discussion on Mid -19th Century Material Culture. It's one of the great mysterys I've been chipping away at for close to twenty years. It seems that there will always be gaps in the historic record of disposable foodstuffs, etc. Just for clarity, I'm thinking of the original look of packaging and containers. Not just their names or size or formula/recipe but what they actually looked like when they were fresh and ready to be consumed.

There have been mentions of the cargos of the Steamboat Arabia and Bertrand. They are both musts for any packaging historian but present just a partial and tantalizing look into the time period. There are no surviving paper labeled goods from the Arabia. Only the foil labels on some bottles survived. It's a little better on the Bertrand with some partial paper labels surviving but many are quite degraded.

I agree that there is a great need for accurate containers for food and other products but the two things that seems to stand in the way are #1,the lack of some vital historical information and#2, the profitability of reproducing said products.

Judith Peebles was right about recreating such things being an investment of time and energy with the possibility of being ripped off , not to mention going broke from lack of interst. As a side. I am the "M" in "P &M" Bakery. It was a long time ago and David Peebles and I created many "impression" goods and some accurate ones as well.

Where I'm leading with all this is that there are some very good opportunitys for procuring accurate labeled can and bottled goods. There's also a lot of "feels right" period "style" labeled goods passed off and embraced by the Authentic Community. My best advise for any reenactor interested in packaging history is for he or she to start contributing to the research and study of surviving evidence and then put their money where their mouth is. The best consumer is an informed consumer.

Assuming you're willing to accept the risks involved in safe food handling, you should find the "right" container and fill it yourself after it's been cleaned and sterilized. Commercial kitchens just add to the cost as Judith pointed out. Proper labels are out there but beware of recent "inventions" or poorly drawn reconstructions. There's no way around it you have to do your homework and then get out that wallet !!
Just my thoughts,
Jim Miller
In the Land of Gold
or so I've been told

[Drygoods]

Jim, Amen to everything you've said! Yes, doing period labels and production isn't for the lighthearted. Sometimes you have to research and find several varieties of the same label before you learn which is the correct one, ....lots of fakes were made back then too.

The other thing is the cost. Sometimes you never know what the final cost will be until you are done with the project. For instance, you can't use dug bottles because they have oxidized. Nothing makes them look fresh again. Then, once you start production you have to accept the loss of some bottles because they might burst when filling, or have hairline cracks that you didn't see at first, or simply cannot keep a secure seal. All of these things have to be considered into your cost. So what do you do? Well, you shop around until you have 20 bottles all the same and pray like the devil that they all survive till the whole process is done and hope that your kids don't drop the crate unloading it at the event.:cry_smile

But you do the whole painful process anyway, because deep down you think it's really cool, and cheaper hobbies like yachting and polo ponies isn't as much fun.