Improving Artillery Drill

[hta1970]

As a break off from the "Improving Artillery Impressions," I thought we should try to deal with each of the points in separate topics.

First off how can we improve our drill.

As mentioned all drill starts with French Berry Hunt, so here are links to free copies of the manual for everyone to enjoy.

Let me know if there are any issues with them working.

Instructions for Field Artillery by French Berry Hunt 1860
http://books.google.com/books?id=sr6CHiD2TEsC&printsec=frontcover&dq=editions:0kyNq8zMQCHT8sYI9vFN4Y&as_brr=1&ie=ISO-8859-1

Instructions for Field Artillery by French Berry Hunt 1861
http://books.google.com/books?id=5nEOAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=editions:0kyNq8zMQCHT8sYI9vFN4Y&as_brr=1&ie=ISO-8859-1#PPR2,M1

Instructions for Field Artillery by French Berry Hunt 1863
http://books.google.com/books?id=FrFEAAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=editions:0kyNq8zMQCHT8sYI9vFN4Y&as_brr=1&ie=ISO-8859-1#PPR3,M1

Instructions for Field Artillery by French Berry Hunt 1864
http://books.google.com/books?id=G2cDAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA3-PT37&dq=instructions+field+artillery+inauthor:french&lr=&as_brr=1&ie=ISO-8859-1#PPR1,M1

And here is a copy of Gilham's Manual of Instruction for the Volunteers and Militia of the Confederate States 1861
http://books.google.com/books?id=xmw9kXUyOlcC&printsec=frontcover&dq=inauthor:gilham&lr=&as_brr=1&ie=ISO-8859-1#PPR1,M1

Does anyone have a pdf copy of the NPS manual available for the members of this forum to read and review?

[Vicksburg Dave]

I'll check with my supervisor to see if a pdf version of our training literature is available.

[Mbond057]

Here is a copy of the Maryland State Park Standards for Reenactors.

8846

[TGreene]

In looking at the School of the Piece in Gilhams Light Artillery Tactics, Andrews' Mounted Artillery Drill, and the Field Artillery Tactics, 1864 by Barry, French, and Hunt, all have the same drill and are almost word for word. I'm not sure about the other parts of the drill. Some parts that are typically changed today are that we typically don't have number 3 wait to hear the command "Fire" before moving away from the gun and we typically have Number 2 serve vent until the round is rammed instead of just until the round is inserted in the drill. Other parts have been changed by some of course, but those are the only obvious differences I notice with the NPS drill. With that said, it should be easy to coordinate between units that are just using the period manuals. The hard part is coordinating the various versions come up with that are supposedly safer. (I find it hard to believe that they would come up with a drill so unsafe as to further endanger their men when they needed every man they could get.)
Also, I found a reference from the Richmond Dispatch, 22 May 1898 from http://www.mdgorman.com/Hospitals/old_camp_lee.htmwhich says,

"Colonel Shields, in a recent letter to a friend, gives an interesting explanation of the thorough preparation of the Richmond Howitzers for field serviced before the war came on.

The Howitzer Company was organized in 1859, and instructed in 1860 in artillery tactics prepared by a board of artillery, officers-

Generals Barry, Hunt, and French-but not issued to the Federal army till 1861.

Colonel Shields, as a publisher, had facilities for obtaining a copy of the tactics from the publishing house in the summer of 1860, and so it was that the Howitzers were equal to the Federal artillery in that respect before the war commenced. Every battery equipped at Camp Lee under his command was instructed in the new tactics."
Earlier in the article, they reference a number of units that were trained there. If this is true, then it looks like a number of ANV units used Barry, French, and Hunt.

Tim Greene

[marine05]

All,

We use HBF drill and for reenactments or NPS events do minor modifications. One, as we have a 10 pounder Parrot, we ram twice, first to simulate the charge, second (with blank charge) to simulate projectile, except when loading canister. We also will stop tending the vent during ramming, but WILL do it at NPS or State Park events. Note: Non-believers have to be reminded of a kazoo, if no air is allowed out of the kazoo the slide won't move (hence no sound) so a charge and projectile will be difficult to ram with the vent stopped.

HBF is pretty simple three basic command Load, Ready, Fire. Not much room for error, KISS!

We did conduct a school for HBF drill at Old Bedford Village two Februarys ago and while the turnout was high, many that felt strongly concerning safety steps inserted by Niagra and other places, reverted back to their normal drill as soon as they left.

However the result was we "networked" with other Redlegs and we have been fortunate in being able to "flesh out" units for more authentic events.

S/F

DJM

[artillerybuff]

Interesting how your unit feels the need to cease stopping the vent during loading, the most potentially dangerous part of the drill. I have read about implements being shot down field when ramming at reenactments. In fact, it happened at an Eastern event last year. Turns out they were not sponging or stopping the vent correctly if I am not mistaken. Rammer ended up in a tree on the other side of the field, and the no. 1 man went to the hospital.

Our unit shoots over 800 blank rounds per year out of our guns and on average 80 or so live rounds annually and have never had a pressure concern or loading problem with the vent stopped.


2nd Lt. Anthony A. Variz
Battery D 5th US

[Vicksburg Dave]

If you are instructing other units not to tend the vent at your "schools" you are opening yourself up for a world of liability when one of your students gets injured, which is bound to happen sooner or later if they follow your instructions.

If you do not stop vent you are creating a bellows effect inside the tube which will cause embers to flare up. It's just like blowing on embers to get a campfire started in the morning. Ideally, the air flow is supposed to exit around the spongehead instead of up through the vent, thus allowing the air to exit the tube, but not across any embers.

What kind of material are you using for a sponge head that makes it too difficult for your number one to ram it home?

I have to agree with Lt. Variz, omitting the most important safety feature of the drill is beyond reckless.

[vamick]

We also use HBF but stop vent when ramming! Ocasionaly we may have a round that for whatever reason is slightly off bore gauge maybe a wee bit tighter than necessary when that happens a slight squeeze by # 2 man when loading ( causing a 'dimple' on the bore surface of the round) usually does the trick letting a lil air escape by the round, but still maintaining the seal at the vent...I really sweat it when I have to ram a tight tight round ( imagining all sorts of friction being built up along the bore surfaces of the round)...probably just in my head tho :rolleyes:....still makes my neck a lil wet tho!:D

[Mbond057]

When constructing blank rounds, I would not make the rounds so tight that they fit very snug in the bore. You have a good possibility of ripping the round and having loose powder in the bore from the round being damaged because it’s too tight when ramming. You also don’t want a small round that tumbles down the bore. This takes some practice constructing rounds that fit just right for your gun tube.

As far as not stopping the vent, that isn’t a safe practice period. It’s not if an accident will occur, it’s only when. Both Tony and David made excellent points on vent stopping.

[sedlakchristopher]

Gentlemen,

We have been stewing over the #3 man's vent stopping as well.

Hunt, Barry and French is very clear in that he stops the vent until "the round is inserted into the tube" however the NPS does follow the stopping of the vent until the round is rammed.

I am curious as to if anyone has data on recent accidents (recent being since re-enacting "began") and if this issue has played a vital role?
Data meaning time/place and witness statements, etc... not just my buddy said...
Or if there were original incidents during the war of this issue being a problem?
I know there are some collections of artillery accidents out there, but I don't have any of them nor can find them online.

Shouldn't sparks be out at this point if a 3, 5 or 10 minute delay between rounds is observed?

If rounds are made properly there shouldn't be any powder exposure until the priming wire, correct?

Are there any cases where a misfire occured while #3 was stopping and what were his injuries?

I'm sitting on the fence on this one.

Remember, let us keep this forum civil.


Chris Sedlak

[Mbond057]

During the Gettysburg Battle on July 2nd the First New Jersey, Battery B, U.S. under the command of Captain A. Judson Clark fired more artillery rounds in one day then any other artillery battery during the Civil War. A total of 1,330 rounds were fired by Battery B from their six 2.9 Parrot rifles. They were positioned between the base of Little Round Top and the Peach Orchard (Murray, 2000).

I have been told by several historians that at least two of the Clark’s Parrot guns fired so fast that the barrels heated and there were constant embers in the tubes and chamber. The number 3 man kept a steady thumb on the vent. After the round was seated and the piece sited the number 3 man would release the vent and the Parrot would fire without using a friction primer. It was stated that the hot embers were so plentiful from the rapid firing and burning in the chamber that no friction primer was used and that by releasing the vent the embers received air igniting the powder bags. If this is true account the number 1 and 2 men had big brass ones. I also figure that the number 3 man was quick on his feet after releasing the vent because the Parrot has a kick when she fires and recoils back a few feet quickly.

Has anyone else heard this story, and if so do you have a reference so that I can read about this occurring?

Reference

Murray, R. L. (2000). E. P. Alexander and the artillery action in the peach orchard. New York: Benedum Books.

[marine05]

If you are instructing other units not to tend the vent at your "schools" you are opening yourself up for a world of liability when one of your students gets injured, which is bound to happen sooner or later if they follow your instructions.

If you do not stop vent you are creating a bellows effect inside the tube which will cause embers to flare up. It's just like blowing on embers to get a campfire started in the morning. Ideally, the air flow is supposed to exit around the spongehead instead of up through the vent, thus allowing the air to exit the tube, but not across any embers.

What kind of material are you using for a sponge head that makes it too difficult for your number one to ram it home?

I have to agree with Lt. Variz, omitting the most important safety feature of the drill is beyond reckless.
It is interesting reading the tangent that has been taken, the first post concerned HBF and the way it was written, mine concerned using that drill and what NPS/State Parks needed...next thing you see is folks discussing not stopping a vent during sponging to rounds being made improperly...wow! Like the commercial says "didn't see that coming."

You have really misunderstood what I wrote, it has nothing to do with the sponge head, rounds, rammer, #1, or the price of tea in China; of course we stop vent during sponging. If you read the original post concerning HBF drill, the vent is not stopped during ramming. At that point, you've sponged, extinguished any embers, etc and are putting a charge and round down the tube. So it would be extremely unlikely that embers would still be in the chamber or bore.

Plus I never stated a "need" to refrain from stopping the vent as I mentioned HBF states #3 "stops vent until the round is inserted into the tube."

Where did you EVER get the idea that we did not stop vent during sponging??!

And who ever mentioned re-enactor rounds or rounds being made too large to fit into the tube.

It would behoove all of us to read the full post, digest and then respond, or go back a couple of posts to read what the original poster wrote. Don't assume for we know it can make an ass of u & me.

At least no one stated the "we have certified (fill in the blank)" because we attended the East Cupcake school of knob polishing!! Yes we know how the folks with those nice bright bronze guns like to see their knobs gleam!!!

S/F

DJM

[marine05]

During the Gettysburg Battle on July 2nd the First New Jersey, Battery B, U.S. under the command of Captain A. Judson Clark fired more artillery rounds in one day then any other artillery battery during the Civil War. A total of 1,330 rounds were fired by Battery B from their six 2.9 Parrot rifles. They were positioned between the base of Little Round Top and the Peach Orchard (Murray, 2000).

I have been told by several historians that at least two of the Clark’s Parrot guns fired so fast that the barrels heated and there were constant embers in the tubes and chamber. The number 3 man kept a steady thumb on the vent. After the round was seated and the piece sited the number 3 man would release the vent and the Parrot would fire without using a friction primer. It was stated that the hot embers were so plentiful from the rapid firing and burning in the chamber that no friction primer was used and that by releasing the vent the embers received air igniting the powder bags. If this is true account the number 1 and 2 men had big brass ones. I also figure that the number 3 man was quick on his feet after releasing the vent because the Parrot has a kick when she fires and recoils back a few feet quickly.

Has anyone else heard this story, and if so do you have a reference so that I can read about this occurring?

Reference

Murray, R. L. (2000). E. P. Alexander and the artillery action in the peach orchard. New York: Benedum Books.
Number three must have been pretty nimble and quick to get out of the way of the recoil!!

That is a very interesting story, had not heard that one.

The only AARs or unit histories I have read that mentioned not sponging between rounds was during rare instances of firing cannister. Also read a unit history of an instance when a battery was assisted by infantry due to reduced battery numbers. Well as one well knows when using "double" cannister with Parrots, the powder charge is removed from the second round...well the infantyman grabbed two complete cannister rounds and they were both loaded!

S/F

DJM

[artillerybuff]

I understood your post perfectly; you do not stop the vent while ramming a round because you claim to have pressure build up from close fitting rounds. In 10 years and literally thousands of rounds fired I have never seen this phenomenum, and see no valid reason to stop tending the vent during loading, period. It is not a wise practice.

Yes, all embers SHOULD be extinguished by the time you load your round, however, the possibility always exists that an ember could be hidden back in the chamber behind a small piece of aluminum foil that did not come out with worming or in the vent itself. I have seen the foil remnants come out completely in tact as a full tube, partially blow out in pieces, or completely blow out as confetti, as well as blown into the vent. Does anyone really want to take a chance on that? I'm not...

This is why we check the vent after each shot, worm every time, double sponge, and keep that vent stopped.

If you feel our safety steps are too redundant and unnecessary, that is your prerogative, and we will just have to agree to disagree.

Respectfully,

2nd Lt. Anthony A. Variz
Battery D

[Vicksburg Dave]

You are correct, I was mistaken when I assumed you did not tend the vent during sponging, primarily because I considered the alternative so mindboggling (not tending the vent because of resistance in the tube while ramming a charge) that my mind immediately looked for the most logical problem. That is why I asked about sponges. But what are you loading into your gun with so close a tolerance that air pressure is a problem during ramming?

As for mention of "knob polishing schools" I have no idea what you are talking about. You are the only one on this thread who claimed to have taught a school for artillerymen.

I stand on the NPS policy of tending the vent whenever anything, be it a sponge, rammer, or worm is inserted into the barrel. Our safety record speaks for itself (knock on wood), NPS crews have fired tens of thousands of rounds in the last forty years without a single accident that resulted in injuries. Hardly a year goes by without some reenacting crew or civilian with a Civil War cannon blowing arms and fingers off during a firing. The NPS must be doing something right.

Again I concur with Lt. Variz, there are too many variables out there to leave anything to chance by leaving a vent untended during ramming. One must always treat their artillery piece as if the potential for embers in the barrel exists. In one accident, the #2 put to much water on the sponge, causing the embers to crust over and float in a pool in the back of the breech for some time between firings. If you have ever tried to douse a charcoal grill with gallons of water, you know what I mean.

While HBF states differently, there is plenty of evidence out there in letters and diaries that Civil War crews tended the vent during ramming. I have an account in my files of a battery at Resaca that lost several men to faulty vents, and the injuries always came in pairs: digits on number 3, and lower arms of number 1.

I apologize if I came across as sarcastic in my posts. Like just about everyone else in this forum, I am passionate about the hobby and truly want to see improvements among us artillerymen. Toward that end I sometimes get caught up in the heat of a debate and mouth off. Please forgive me.

[Vicksburg Dave]

Chris wrote:
Gentlemen,

We have been stewing over the #3 man's vent stopping as well.

Hunt, Barry and French is very clear in that he stops the vent until "the round is inserted into the tube" however the NPS does follow the stopping of the vent until the round is rammed.

I am curious as to if anyone has data on recent accidents (recent being since re-enacting "began") and if this issue has played a vital role?
Data meaning time/place and witness statements, etc... not just my buddy said...
Or if there were original incidents during the war of this issue being a problem?
I know there are some collections of artillery accidents out there, but I don't have any of them nor can find them online.

Shouldn't sparks be out at this point if a 3, 5 or 10 minute delay between rounds is observed?

If rounds are made properly there shouldn't be any powder exposure until the priming wire, correct?

Are there any cases where a misfire occured while #3 was stopping and what were his injuries?

I'm sitting on the fence on this one.

Remember, let us keep this forum civil.


Chris Sedlak


Chris, you bring up some good points.

The overwhelming cause of cannon accidents in the last fifty years, (and I have examined the lists of accidents) have been due to crews attempting to fire too fast.

As I posted in my previous message on this thread, I have in my files some accounts of premature discharges during the ramming where 1 and 3 received injuries.

As for the debate over 3, 5, and 10 minutes, the only thing I can say is the longer the delay, the better your chances. NPS is wedded to 10 minutes, most sane reenactors stick to at least 3 minutes.

As for the rounds being made properly, I cannot speak for anyone else, but we use a wooden form to make our outer aluminum foil container in which we use 1lb of powder, then we use a slightly shorter aluminum foil container to hold two to three cups of peat moss. I do not know if a round has ever split or leaked during ramming, as I have never had cause to look down the muzzle after loading. lol. But, an inexperienced number 1 can ram too hard and burst the round against the back of the chamber, your number 5 can damage it while transporting it to the gun, or number 2 can damage it while placing it in the muzzle. The lesson here is that a number of people handle the round prior to ramming and rather than solely relying on the integrity of the casing, it is best to have an additional safety measure.


Numerous cases have occurred, during the war and during reenactments where number #3 lost digits due to misfires. Except when tending the vent it is our policy to never allow one's hand to pass over the vent after the round is loaded. I instruct my number 3 to go around the breech with his hand to hold the lanyard in place, rather than across in the now inserted friction primer.

If you want to do a good educational demo for your crew on what can happen to number 3's hand during a premature firing, put a steak over the vent during a controlled test fire sometime and see what happens to it. Likewise, to demonstrate what happens to number 1 during an accident, in a highly controlled situation, put one of his spare gloves on a stick in front of the gun during a firing.

Civilly,

[sedlakchristopher]

Gentlemen,

First, thank you to everyone for keeping this forum civil!

I too, just like all of you, am very passionate about our way of life, for some of us this is so far beyond a hobby, so we all must understand others are just as passionate of "our way" as we are of ours.

I don't think Dan and I are throwing safety to the wind. Trust me when I say I get a lump in my throat EVERY time we fire, hoping all goes well and there are no problems. We ALL understand the gravity of what we are doing.

What you all are saying makes very LOGICAL sense as to why #3 stays stopping the vent until ramming is done. We will be revisitng that issue inter-unit as a result.

I thought about this post all night. I am glad that safety issues came up and may be tackled.

However, let us remember that this is the Authentic Campaigner and not the Safety Campaigner... now don't get mad just yet...
I think we established what Hunt, Barry, French said. It's there in print.
I think we established that it may be better to keep #3 in there...

Bottom line, this may not be the forum to resolve these safety issues.
Each to his own, keeping in mind the authenticity and safety scales of balance which also include unit personalities and the attitude towards legal ramifications as a result of any particular resulting injuries.

Once again GENTLEMEN, thank you for the CIVIL discussion on a very hot topic.

I am still interested in records of artillery accidents and causes.
I do have a hard copy of those such accidents stemming all the way from the war itself. It was posted on the A/C here on another thread, but I can't find it anywhere? Anyone know what I'm talking about? It may have been Mr. Cohen that posted it?

Chris Sedlak

[Vicksburg Dave]

I found the source I mentioned in my earlier posts.

A. S. Bloomfield Civil War Letters, Ohio Historical Society.
Battery A, 1st Ohio Light Artillery


May 21, 1864

"Respected Sister:....[at Resaca] our battery fired three hundred rounds. we suffered no loss from the enemy but had three very bad accidents. They were premature discharges of our pieces on being loaded. It was caused by the pieces being old and breech burne. They were all twelve pound Napoleons.

The first discharge was No. 3 piece blowing offone of V. B. Standford's arms and injuring the left hand so that he had to have his two front fingers amputated. His arm was taken off above the elbow. His face was badly burned but do not think he will lose his eye sight.

The second discharge was No. 3 piece badly injuring E. Roes and J. Van Normer is badly burned and flesh cut and grains of powder in his face.

The vent thumbers thumb was blown out of place. The last we heard from them they were all getting along fine. The next morning their works were evacuated leaving three hundred wounded and their dead on the field."



Diary of Charles Affeld, Taylor's Battery, 1st Illinois Light Artillery.

Source: http://www.taylorsbattery.org/Affeld%20Diary%20transcription.htm

Wednesday, May 20, 1863

Douglas K. Newell on our gun was shot through the head as I was thumbing the vent of our gun while putting in the cartridge. We were now two of our number short, as I had been acting as both Nos. 2 and 4 until after Douglas Newell was shot. Newell was shot near the top of his head and the bullet came out through the occipi**tal bone. I had just put in the cartridge when he fell forward his knees on the ground and his head also.


May 22, 1863.
We did not look up to watch it soon after saw another flag on the works and nearly all of the men that were there dropped into the trench or were so wounded as to be unable to move, At about 5 P. M, as I was sponging the gun Frederick Thompson was shot through the heart, while thumb**ing the vent.



Deeds of Valor: From Records in the Archives of the United States Government ... By Walter Frederick Beyer

"A captain of a gun was thumbing the vent of a 9-inch Dahlgren as the men rammed home a 10-pound cartridge of powder, when he was knocked down by a splinter uncovering the vent. George Smith, a seaman, placed his bare thumb on the hot gain and kept the vent closed until the men finished loading; he was burned severely, but never left his station. "





A Narrative of the Services of the Officers and Enlisted Men of the 7th Regiment of Vermont Volunteers. By William C. Holbrook p. 133

On the 10th of September a serious accident occurred at the redoubt by the premature discharge of an eight inch sea coast howitzer. Our picket line had been fired into several times from the woods in front of this fort and I thought it desirable that the gunners should get the exact range of the edge of the woods at different points. A detachment from Company I was serving the gun. The catastrophe occurred in my presence and was occasioned by the carelessness of the corporal, in charge of the detail, whose duty it was to properly thumb the vent. This he did not do and by his negligence
lost the middle finger of his right hand. Private Robert Bipley of Company I, had his right arm blown off and sustained other injuries from which he died within a few days, and Private James B. Royce was blown into the air and picked up for dead. To the surprise of every one, however, he revived and is now living, being in the service of the government in the Paymaster General's office at Washington. His left arm was badly shattered, being broken four times?


http://books.google.com/books?id=zrLypzpfaNIC&pg=PA176&lpg=PA176&dq=%22thumbs+the+vent%22&source=web&ots=lLTF4qBs2a&sig=YRgYXXhl8wwoCWkuzM8PCDt7Bto&hl=en
Photo of no. 3 thumbing the vent p. 176





Thomas D. Christie Letters, Minnesota Historical Society, June 7, 1863 at Vicksburg.

http://www.mnhs.org/library/Christie/letters/transcripts/td630607.html


When I tell you that the fort has 8 guns in it, (4 of the 2nd Ills. 2 of the 12th Wis. and 2 of ours), and that we have a deep ditch running from it to the magazine behind the hill, by which the ammunition is carried to the guns without exposure; you will be able to form a very good idea of its appearance. If you could be in our fort during action and could command composure enough, amid the continual explosion of the guns on each side of you, the sulphurous smell of the burnt powder, and the fierce "whiz," "whiz" of the enemy's bullets, to observe the working of our howitzer you would see something interesting. There is No. 1: his hands face and clothes blackened with the wet powder from the sponge, on his knees ramming home the charge, (if he stood up opposite the embrasure he would get a ball in an instant). There is No. 3, (William) with his thumb on the vent to prevent a premature explosion when the piece is hot, Now the gun is loaded and Nos. 1 and 3 step back, the latter to the trail handspike to traverse the trail at the Gunner's bidding) "By hand to the front," and the piece is run up close to the embrasure, the Gunner sets his pendulum [illegible word] on its seat, sights carefully and gives the right elevation, perhaps 2 degrees. Then "Ready," "Fire," Now, if you are standing to our side where you can see, you will observe the shell flying through the air like a great black bird, make a gradual curve, and fall behind the Rebel works, then you see a white smoke where it fell, and pretty soon comes the report of its bursting. Through all the din and tumult and smoke, No. 6 sits coolly cutting the fuses to the proper time, and the proper Nos. of the Detachment carry the shells from him to the gun. According to tactics, I have nothing to do at the guns, but I have been there ever since we first opened: sometimes acting as Gunner, and sometimes changing with one of the cannoniers. We are to move into a fort tonight much further to the front, within 200 yards of the enemy, and then we may expect some warm work.

[Pennvolunteer]

Gentlemen,
Out here at the home of the Field Artillery, we follow the NPS standards strictly in our crew drill. I have HBF here in front of me, and true as pointed out, it says No 3 tends the vent until 2 inserts the round. You've made me review HBF and pick up on something I assumed was in there, i.e., tending the vent through ramming. However, being a Museum overseen by the Federal government, safety always prevails, as does discretion in my view.
Anyway, someone mentioned accidents, and I just want to let you know there is a fellow out here in the Oklahoma area who touts himself as quite the expert with the "Loyal Train of Artillery" who shall remain un-named, but he has a stub where his fingers used to be. Now I wasn't there, but have been told that was the result of not tending the vent in ramming and maybe some sloppy crew drill on sponging as well, which is another whole discussion and certainly a contributing factor. Again, I don't know first hand, I've met the gentleman, and the story was related to me by another redleg who is well versed in proper crew drill. But it was clearly an incident related to ramming and crew drill.

[Vicksburg Dave]

Chris wrote, "Bottom line, this may not be the forum to resolve these safety issues."

Actually, I think we have made progress. We have a consenus on the supremacy of HBF, and the use period of documentation for any deviations. While we may never agree on 3, 5, or 10 minutes, we can come to agreement on enough things to make it where crews can interchange members without a drop in authenticity as well as safety, that is we do not fear the new guy but are confident in his diligence. lol

If we can argue these things out on this forum and present our evidence, then maybe it will have an impact on mainstream units who are getting their drill from oral history and spurious training camps. Ultimately, I think, well read and research oriented artillerymen are the safest. They know how things were done originally, why they were done, and why some modern changes are necessary. They do not do it just because others are doing it or because the guy who owns the gun told them so.

Lord knows I have learned a lot here. My first season on the detachment, I wore a flaming red forage cap, black trousers with a red stripe, and a red fireman's shirt, and thought I looked dang good. lol

I suggest that we continue posting threads on controversial issues in our branch of service. If we do not hash out the issues in an knowledgeable manner, who will?

[sedlakchristopher]

David and All,
I too believe this is a mark of progress and a great place to knowledgeably hash out issues in our field.

ALSO - Make sure you check out the photo David Slay posted...

http://books.google.com/books?id=zrLypzpfaNIC&pg=PA176&lpg=PA176&dq=%22thumbs+the+vent%22&source=web&ots=lLTF4qBs2a&sig=YRgYXXhl8wwoCWkuzM8PCDt7Bto&hl=en
Photo of no. 3 thumbing the vent p. 176

Now tell me if that isn't a #3 thumbing the vent with the rammer seated?
Now the question is, did #3 fall asleep or was it intentional! ? :eek:

Chris Sedlak

[marine05]

Gents,

Happy Saint Patrick's Day, it is a day to reflect on our Irish heritage, and to feel pity for all those that were not born of Irish descent.

Regarding our "school" the intent was to have artillerymen feel as confident as infantry seems to and fall in with other units. We were relatively successful in that we have rounded out units for more authentic events, to include individual canneers from units that are not as high on authenticity as others.

It was run mostly by historical weapons experts and living historians from the MD state parks. We had a group of cadets from VMI there as well, they were attempting to form a saluting battery and fire "Jackson's Disciples" at school events. Non-Artillerymen were able to attend to get a better feel for what artllery does/did. We did not just do drill, but learned fuses, burned a few to show exactly how they worked, had animal handlers explaining the proper horses used for artillery, plus logistics and the space a full six gun (mostly Union) battery took up. Drill also highlighted the nuances between HBF and the NPS style drill. Not much difference, but some folks feel that it is not safe.

Make no mistake, due to the number of NPS events we do every year, we adhere strictly to the rules, plus ensure that proper drill procedures are conducted. Accidents happen mostly when you don't do things by the numbers.

Interesting post on the injuries and wounds, thanks for posting. One item concerning attention to drill and detail, the only casualty (KIA) that my artillery regiment (M-198 155-T) had in the first Gulf War was a cannon-cocker that failed to wait the proper time after a mis-fire. Primer failed, he approached to clear too soon, slow burning primer caused weapon to discharge, at the same time his head was at the breech. Recoil crushed his grape.

S/F

DJM
Member Order of St Barbara

Riamh Nar dhruid O sbairn lan - "Never retreat from the clash of spears"

[hta1970]

Does anyone have a copy of the NPS artillery drill in pdf which they can post to this forum?

[Vicksburg Dave]

I'm still waiting on a copy from my supervisor. We got plenty of hard copies laying around, but nothing electronic readily available.

[Forquer]

Here 'tis.

[hta1970]

I just found Patten's Artillery Drill, so here is a link to a free copy of the manual for everyone to enjoy.

Let me know if there are any issues with them working.

Artillery Drill by Patten 1863
http://books.google.com/books?id=P7MVAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=artillery+inauthor:patten&lr=&as_brr=1#PPP1,M1

This is the manual which Richard Snowden Andrews based his manual.

[hta1970]

Ok, I have been reading throught the NPS artillery drill posted here on this forum and I have noticed a few points

1 - There is no mention of the #2 worming the piece.

2 - The NPS drill has the #3 hold the lanyard against the barrel after the primer is inserted into the vent and until the #4 is in position and signals him to move.

3 - There is no mention of using a wet sponge in the drill or dry sponging after wet sponging.

4 - NPS drill states a crew minimum of 6 yet period manuals state the gun could be served by as few as 2.

5 - The thumbstall called for in the NPS drill simply states "leather" rather than the buck skin in the period ordnance manuals.

Any comments or input?