Telescoped (collapsed) Hardee hats in 1st Corps Black Hats?

[Ryan Halsey]

Would any men in the Black Hats (1st) have worn telescoped hardees? I have one for western fed, but didn't know about this.

[Furlough Frank]

Ryan,

Exactly what is a "telescoped Hardee"? Do you have a picture of one?

Respectfully,

Frank Campbell
"At the age of four with paper hats and wooden swords we're all Generals." - Ambrose Bierce

[Haversack]

Sir,
It is a shorter Hardee with a telescoped crown.

[PVT.THIB]

I believe it is shorter because the crown has been pushed in.

[BrianHicks]

So.. perhaps the question might be more precisely phrased as:

"Considering the men of the 1st (The Black Hats), is there any documentation, references, personal letters or diary entries with descriptions of, or images of any of them wearing their Hardee Hat with a personal modification to it's shape? Such as pushing the crown down to a telescoped type appearance?"

[John E. Tobey]

There's plenty of anectotal documentation for altering the shape of the regulation hat. Problem is, it's tough to tell precisely what alterations were being made. Here's a couple of examples...

The 3rd Michigan cavalry was ordered to fold the crown of their hats in the "Continental Style" (whatever that was) in 1864 (Troiani 179).

Even more revealing was the comment of an officer:“It seems to me that soldiers take delight in seeing into what ludicrous shapes they can get these hats." (Brackett, 160-161)

John Tobey

[Ryan Halsey]

Thanks Brian. Thats a better way to put it.

[lukegilly13]

Ryan, this post makes my morning. Finally a question I have researched already. Here is a very early war image of the 1st VA. Unfortunately there are no hardee's in the image. There are many overcoats (which was my research topic).http://www.1stvirginia.com/1stVirginiaHistory/1stVirginiaHistory_02.jpg
I have more images...I believe some with civilian slouches, tons of kepis, a couple of forage caps...I have some quotes about the look of the 1st from two different primary sources....I will get those on here asap. Hope this helps

[lukegilly13]

Ryan,
After a little further consideration, and I hate to us a "what if", but in this case I think it applies. You must decide 'is the lack of evidence, evidence of a lack'? If you want to "okay" that type of hat in your impression maybe you can find out if they had access to that particular issue hat. Correct me if i'm wrong but the hardee is a federal issue dress hat? Here is the Union order of battle at 1st Manassas. You might check their quartermaster records or look for images to determine if any 1st boys could have "acquired" one from the post battlefield. I will continue to look for the 1st person quotations and newspaper descriptions that I have in storage.
1st Battle of Bull Run Union Order of Battle

Union Army
Brig. Gen. IRVIN McDOWELL, COMMANDING

FIRST DIVISION.
Brig. Gen. DANIEL TYLER.

First Brigade
Col. E. D. KEYES.

Second Maine.
First Connecticut.
Second Connecticut.
Third Connecticut.

Second Brigade.
Brig. Gen. R. C. SCHENCK.

Second New York (State Militia).
First Ohio.
Second Ohio.
E, Second U.S. Artillery.

Third Brigade.
Col. W. T. SHERMAN.

Thirteenth New York.
Sixty-ninth New York.
Seventy-ninth New York.
Second Wisconsin.
E, Third U.S. Artillery.

Fourth Brigade.
Col. I. B. RICHARDSON,

First Massachusetts.
Twelfth New York.
Second Michigan.
Third Michigan.
G, First U.S. Artillery.
M, Second U.S. Artillery.

SECOND DIVISION.
Col. ANDREW PORTER.

First Brigade.
Col. Andrew Porter.

Eighth New York (Militia).
Fourteenth New York.
Twenty-seventh Now York.
Battalion U.S. Infantry.
Battalion U.S. Marines.
Battalion U.S. Cavalry.
D, Fifth U.S. Artillery.

Second Brigade.
Col. A. E. Burnside.

Second New Hampshire.
First Rhode Island.
Second Rhode Island.
Seventy-first New York.

THIRD DIVISION.
Col. S. P. HEINTZELMAN, wounded.

First Brigade.
Col. W. B. FRANKLIN.

Fifth Massachusetts.
Eleventh Massachusetts.
First Minnesota.
I, First U.S. Artillery.

Second Brigade.
Col. O. B. WILLCOX, wounded and captured.

Eleventh New York (Fire Zouaves).
Thirty-eighth New York.
First Michigan.
Fourth Michigan.
D, Second U.S. Artillery.

Third Brigade.
Col. O. O. HOWARD.

Third Maine.
Fourth Maine.
Fifth Maine.
Second Vermont.

FOURTH (RESERVE) DIVISION.
Brig. Gen. THEODORE RUNYON.

Three months

First New Jersey.
Second New Jersey.
Third New Jersey.
Third New Jersey.

Three years

First New Jersey.
Second New Jersey.
Fourth New Jersey.
Forty-first New York.

FIFTH DIVISION.
Col. DIXON S. MILES.

First Brigade.
Col. Louis BLENKER.

Eighth New York (Volunteers).
Twenty-ninth New York.
Thirty-ninth New York.
Twenty-seventh Pennsylvania.
A, Second U.S. Artillery.
Bookwood's New York Battery.

Second Brigade.
Col. THOMAS A. DAVIES.

Sixteenth New York.
Eighteenth New York.
Thirty-first New York.
Thirty-second New York.
G, Second U.S. Artillery.

[Stonewall_Greyfox]

Ummmm...could we define just which "1st" we're talking about?

There were lots of "1st"...for example in Virginia; we had the "1st" VA Infantry, "1st" Virginia Cavalry, "1st" Virginia Artillary...I know other states has similar naming conventions for their volunteer soldiers. And each of these had their own variations in uniforms.

LukeG: That image of the "1st" VA Vol. Regt. Ifantry was taken at John Brown's hanging in December 1858 at Charleston, Virginia (now Western)...that's why they're wearing overcoats.

Firms such as Horstmann Bros. of Philadelphia sold to state militias and private militia companies extensively throughout the country prior to the war. Many of these militia groups mirrored the appearance of the "Federal Uniform Regulations".

While the Hardee hat was the Federal "dress-hat"...it saw use by Southern militia companies as well...while I do not have any images on hand...I have seen more than 1/2 dozen images attributed to soldiers from Rockbridge, VA wearing a dark-blue dress-coat "frock-coat" and wearing black dress-hats "hardees" with one side pinned up and with trim. I'll see if I can rattle up some images of the Rockbridge boys over the next few days.

Paul B.

[hiplainsyank]

A few years back I remember reading an article here about Hardees, where the author had gone around investigating surviving examples, measuring and the like. I recall that he found a lot of variance in the original height of the hats, and even the width of the brim, meaning that the tall reproductions today should be joined by lower crowned varieties.

This was probably 5 or so years back, so that article was probably lost in one of the crashes, but maybe the author still has it and could repost it. I thought it was very interesting.

[Ryan Halsey]

I am talking about the Federal Black Hats. (1st Core.) Thanks for all the feedback. Sorry about the confusion, I was really busy when I posted. Boy Scouts, Rev War, in 3 civil war units, oldtime bands, and high school baseball is getting to me.

[Ryan Halsey]

By the way Luke. Congrats on your new son!

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

" I recall that he found a lot of variance in the original height of the hats, and even the width of the brim, meaning that the tall reproductions today should be joined by lower crowned varieties."

I don't have the QM dress hat specs handy, but we need to be careful of "a lot a "variance" is more subtle than "a lot." The specs often cited are for a "medium size" hat at 6 1/4.
A Size 2 is listed 5 1/2, a Size 4 at 5 3/4 inches.

However here are some original heights-by-size samples:

Size 3: 5 3/4
Size 4: 5 5/8
Size 4: 5 7/8
Size 5: 5 3/4

Looking at a range of Federal photographs in general, the dress hat can be found worn as issued (looking "pilgrim-like") to the fore-and-aft crease ("karate chop") to crushed on the sides to make a center ridge, punched out,
collapsed down, and "telescoped."
One I recall was crushed and actually sewn down.

The QM specs set the brim width at 3 1/4 inches. However, that also varies slightly such as down to 3 inches or 3 1/8, etc., 3 inches seems to havebeen a common variation without getting into a discussion of shrinkage of Russian Hare and Scottish Coney fur-felt blend. ;)

Curt

[Ryan Halsey]

Thanks for your help. I will use that in the future.

[Furlough Frank]

Paul,

I will be very interested in seeing your photogaphs. I have many ancestors on boths sides of my family that were from Rockbridge County, VA.

Sincerely,

Frank Campbell

"War is God's way of teaching Americans geography." - Ambrose Bierce

[Duff]

I am assuming you are talking about the Iron Brigade (2nd 6th 7th Wis, 19th Ind, 24th Mich). Here are some original photos. Good luck finding one.

[MuleyGil]

"LukeG: That image of the "1st" VA Vol. Regt. Ifantry was taken at John Brown's hanging in December 1858 at Charleston, Virginia (now Western)...that's why they're wearing overcoats."

Just a slight correction, SG.

The hanging was 2 December 1859 and it was in Charlestown, Virginia. Charlestown has also been spelled as CharlesTown.

Charleston is in the north central part of what is now West Virginia.

[lukegilly13]

thanks for the info on the picture. My source lists that picture as taken just after the battle of manassas (time life). It being pre-war, would this mean that they are simply wearing federal uniforms? And if so, did they maintain these after secession?

[JLHurst]

Here is a pic of two housed in the West Point Museum, West Point NY.
The first Hardee is that of 1st Sgt. Harlan Cobb, US Engineers. The second is a modified Hardee from John M. Mitchell, Co. F 79th Illinois Vol. Inf. The bullet hole in the crown was recieved at Liberty Gap, Tenn. June 25th 1863.

http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k143/WildBillKelso/img007.jpg

[markj]

I can't answer to the specific question at hand, but you might be interested to know that alteration of hats was, at various times and places, conducted in the face of strictures not to do so.

I'll have to plow through my voluminous pile of notes, but, while going through the books of the 68th Indiana Volunteer Infantry at NARA, I found and wrote a general order expressly prohibiting alteration of dress hats. I recall this directive was issued soon after the 68th IVI arrived in Chattanooga for garrison duty (April - September 1864).

Needless to say, such strictures were undoubtedly relaxed once the 68th headed back into the field in the late summer of 1864.

Yours, &c.,

Mark Jaeger

[fire_zouave]

This doesn't answer your question but I think it helps.
These two photos from the Penisula Campaign imply that the alteration of issue hats began relatively early in the war. Notice in this photo the 'center-crease' alteration:
http://www.libertyrifles.org/research/darkblues62/artillery.jpg

Notice in this next photo that at least two of the three issue hats have an altered profile including a Kossuth/Army Hat with a telescoped crown. Also notice that the gentleman in the center still has all of his hat brass, even to the point of keeping the eagle on the underside of his brim, so I suppose he could put his brim bag up when the occasion called for full dress uniform.

http://www.libertyrifles.org/research/darkblues62/csfort.jpg

[Duff]

You can see in the photo that I posted that two of the men have center creased hats, so that must mean that at least the 24th Mich did not have any standards about dress hat alteration. I would assume from that that men may also have teloscoped their hats, but until documentation presents itself, we will not know for sure.

[Ryan Halsey]

Thanks guys. I realize there is not very good documentation of the wearing of these, but you have helped me better my impression. If anyone has anything else they would like to post, please do so.

[Garrett Silliman]

This does not have anything to do with your original question concerning the Iron Brigade, but it is a great image of "telescoped" crowns on dress hats in the field. This is a Barnard image from the Atlanta Campaign.

[Ryan Halsey]

Thanks for the image. That is a great one.

[fytn5th]

Well known photo of Co I 7th Wisconsin in Fredericksburg prior to heading north for the 2nd Manassas/Antietam campaign. Private front rank, second from left's hat appears to be peaked (or could it just be his feather at an odd angle?) A few look like they "may be" collapsed, but unless under a microscope, hard to tell....

http://images.wisconsinhistory.org/700099990229/9999004009-l.jpg

[Ryan Halsey]

Yeah I know, its hard to tell, but thanks.