Were to wear-Haversack & Canteen?

[A7X]

Does anyone know where i would be able to get a pattern for a federal haversack, kinda a do it yourself thing, if anyone has any information i would be most greatful. thanks alot!!


Jonathan Kroppmann

[Clark Badgett]

I don't know of anyone that sells a pattern. If possible you could find an original and copy it, but since original haversacks aren't located around every bend, you could find a pard that owns a high quality repro and make a copy of it. But please don't plan on making them for sale unless all the work, including examining the original is your own.

[James Masson]

I don't know of anyone that sells a pattern. If possible you could find an original and copy it, but since original haversacks aren't located around every bend, you could find a pard that owns a high quality repro and make a copy of it. But please don't plan on making them for sale unless all the work, including examining the original is your own.

I don't really recommend copying a reproduction, no matter how high quality they are. They are reproductions and have their flaws. Most any big collection will have a Federal Haversack in it. Call them and ask if they would allow you to examine it. If they do, they'll lay down some ground rules that I suggest you follow, to the "T". If you follow their rules, they'll invite you back for more visits.

James Masson

[Clark Badgett]

James, the originals also had their flaws. I've looked at three originals, and none were the same. One thing they all had in common was construction styles.

[James Masson]

Ok, so the three originals you've examined are not exactly the same. Much the same that all 7 (or was it 6, I can't remember) of the surviving Columbus Depot jackets aren't all the same. I don't think that's the point of this thread.

The Johnathan asked if there was a commercially available pattern for a Federal haversacks. You replied that there isn't one that you know and I agree with that, I'm not aware of a commercially available pattern either. You then recommended that he find a high quality reproduction and reproduce it. I replied that reproducing a reproduction is not a wise thing, IMHO. Reproductions are not exact and never will be exact copies of original items. The high quality ones get damn close, but they don't get all the way there. I feel that reproducing a reproduction is not right, for more than one reason. The biggest is that any high quality reproduction will have a lot of research and time behind it. I know that if I had taken the time to examine a haversack (or any article) and taken the time to painstakingly reprodue the item, I wouldn't want some schmuck to come along and reproduce my reproduction. That's essentially stealing the producer's time and knowledge because you didn't want to commit the time to do the research.

Just my .02. Your opinion obviously differs from mine and that's fine.

[markmason]

:confused:


Hallo! AC Forum rules require that one's avatar image be of oneself and not a graphic, cartoon, or image of someone else. Please edit yours to reflect the actual you. Thank you. Curt-Heinrich Schmidt, Moderator

[SGulley]

Nice image Mark!

[Clark Badgett]

James, well let me ask you something. If there are none to be found to examine, and yes many museums are getting to the point where they won't let you see anything up close. Then just how are the heck is some poor college student or working man supposed to get anything any more, he's in a catch 22 can't afford the good stuff, and can't examine any originals. Bet the vendors love that. Why do you think the few that make frocks make over double the cost of materials for their offerings? Not much completiton. You said all repros have flaws that differ from the original, when you meant is to copy a repro cost that maker someone elses money. And to be truthful it ain't very hard to make patterns off original equipment, many have done it and many more will hopefully do so.

[James Masson]

James, well let me ask you something. If there are none to be found to examine, and yes many museums are getting to the point where they won't let you see anything up close. Then just how are the heck is some poor college student or working man supposed to get anything any more, he's in a catch 22 can't afford the good stuff, and can't examine any originals. Bet the vendors love that. Why do you think the few that make frocks make over double the cost of materials for their offerings? Not much completiton. You said all repros have flaws that differ from the original, when you meant is to copy a repro cost that maker someone elses money. And to be truthful it ain't very hard to make patterns off original equipment, many have done it and many more will hopefully do so.


First, I'm a college student that can afford to buy quality stuff. Granted I am learning how to sew and doing my research, viewing originals, etc. Second, the tailors that make quality frocks, make less than minimum wage (about 2-3 bucks per hour). Have you ever sewn a frock? Do you know how much time goes into it? They are not overcharging for their work, by far. I think it's fine for them to try and make a living off and support their families and they should be paid a reasonable amount for their labours. Third, it isn't hard to make patterns off original equipment. Well, that depends on what piece of equipment you're talking about.

Copying a reproduction is NOT correct. It's more than economics thing too. Everyone makes mistakes, even the best reproducers. If you copy that reproducer's mistakes are you making an accurate reproduction?

James

[Jeffrey Przewozniak]

Hmmm...

Copying a reproduction is a double-edged sword, I think:

One edge: It does not convey the accuracy we are all pursuing. If a person copies a repop complete with it's flaws, that person is letting the innaccuracy multiply, along with adding his/her own. Moreover, who's to say that someone won't copy your copy of a copy? See, it's a horrible cycle that can get out of hand.

Other edge: If one is learning how to sew, attempting basic construction techniques, practicing, etc., then by all means, copying a copy is acceptable. Just remember that true, acceptable, earnest, authentic repops are first generation copies of originals, and nothing can take the place of an item made from an original.

My advice: Call ahead, set aside a weekend, burn up some gas to get to a good museum, and take notes like crazy.

OK, off to Art History... I am humbly,

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo Herr James!

If you e-mail me off-forum, I will be happy to discuss some drawings and measurements of several original federal haversacks.

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt

[Clark Badgett]

Hallo Herr James!

If you e-mail me off-forum, I will be happy to discuss some drawings and measurements of several original federal haversacks.

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt

As would I, James. I don't plan on making money from the meager amount of info I've gotten over the years, so I don't feel threatened sharing it. I only make things for myself, to keep the cost down of this hobby my wife hates.

[Clark Badgett]

"Have you ever sewn a frock? Do you know how much time goes into it?

James[/QUOTE]


LOL this is rather funny. And since you asked yes I have. Have also sewn a Mobile jacket totally by hand and let me tell you that was by far the hardest piece of clothing I've ever sewn. You see it has a little detail to it that many misidentify as double row of topstitching, well there is only one actual row of topstitching, the other row is whipstitching through 5 layers of material so it looks like topstitching. CS frocks, take longer than US frocks. completely hand sewn SA trowsers take longer and have many more hand stitches than frocks. I have sewn somewhere close to a dozen complete uniforms, including a US overcoat, again another item harder than a frock, broke about 10 needles while making that. I could go on, but I don't really see the need. I can tell you one thing, there are a good many of us that caught the authenticity bug by borrowing a friends accurate repro and copying it. Just about everyone I know has done it at least once.

[James Masson]

"Have you ever sewn a frock? Do you know how much time goes into it?

James


LOL this is rather funny. And since you asked yes I have. Have also sewn a Mobile jacket totally by hand and let me tell you that was by far the hardest piece of clothing I've ever sewn. You see it has a little detail to it that many misidentify as double row of topstitching, well there is only one actual row of topstitching, the other row is whipstitching through 5 layers of material so it looks like topstitching. CS frocks, take longer than US frocks. completely hand sewn SA trowsers take longer and have many more hand stitches than frocks. I have sewn somewhere close to a dozen complete uniforms, including a US overcoat, again another item harder than a frock, broke about 10 needles while making that. I could go on, but I don't really see the need. I can tell you one thing, there are a good many of us that caught the authenticity bug by borrowing a friends accurate repro and copying it. Just about everyone I know has done it at least once.[/QUOTE]

Herr Schmidt,

Thank you very much for the offer but I have no desire to make a reproduction of a Federal Issue Haversack. I was not the original poster. I was just arguing to pros and cons of reproducing a reproduction with Mr. Badgett.

Mr. Badgett,

"I can tell you one thing, there are a good many of us that caught the authenticity bug by borrowing a friends accurate repro and copying it."

Meet your first. I have never copied a reproduction and will never copy a reproduction. Do I sew? Yes, I started last year and whenever I can get in to view an original piece, I do. I have never believed in copying a reproduction for the two simple reasons I stated above. As I said, obviously our opinions differ, which is fine.

[Clark Badgett]

James, I never said copying a repro was a very good method. I totally agree that the best method is looking at the original yourself, and making it from there. The guy asked about where to get a haversack pattern, well there are only three ways to get a pattern of anything. Make one from an original. Buy pattern made from an original. Or copy the repro item someone made from the original. Guess what all the above are just forms of reverse engineering. We are all copying the work of the original maker/developer. Nothing "original" about what we do.

And to address another item you brought up, ain't none of the makers of Federal frock coats that are making them for minimum wage. I remember years ago when that BS started and I remember who started it, and why he did it. I know a lady that can crank one out in about 10 hours start to finish, so by your argument that is $20-30 labor, and do the math. Materials- under $200, labor (by your claim) $30. All the current vendors are businessmen, and if they aren't making a profit from something they ain't gonna waist there time in making it.

[yohahn]

Hello.

I'm making a Moses Alexander haversack and have a few questions on the construction. In the picture of the original, the side seams look to be flat felled. Is this correct? And if so, then it's whip stitched on the back, right? Also, does anyone know exact dimensions of the bag and width of the strap and does the strap have a center seam?

Any info. on this haversack would be GREATLY appreciated.

Thanks,
John Boyd

[Michael Semann]

I posted this exact question last year, and the consensus among those who had examined the interior, or had information pertaining to the inside seams of the Alexander haversack, was that they were FRENCH felled. If anyone has evidence to the contrary, please share it with us.

[Michael Semann]

John, check your E-mail.

[bqbowden]

Did officer's carry a haversack that may have been different than a private's haversack which would have been used to carry reports, papers, writing material and various other items used to conduct company (or larger) business? Would they have simply carried two haversacks - one for food and one for papers?

Thanks ...

Barry Bowden

[RyanBWeddle]

Many officers carried privately purchased haversacks, with divided compartments, flaps, pockets, etc. etc.

Many officers also carried enlisted bags as well.

Look in TimeLife's Echoes of Glory series to see examples of each.

Good luck,

Did officer's carry a haversack that may have been different than a private's haversack which would have been used to carry reports, papers, writing material and various other items used to conduct company (or larger) business? Would they have simply carried two haversacks - one for food and one for papers?

Thanks ...

Barry Bowden

[markj]

Hi Barry,

The short answer to all your questions is "usually, yes." Given that officers on both sides usually had to purchase their own uniforms and gear, many did acquire tooled-leather haversacks of various styles. Depending on their duties, they also used "dispatch cases." Simple logic is that they did NOT use such items to carry both papers and food items together due to the possibility of staining.

"Echoes of Glory" contains illustrated examples of various officer haversacks. Indeed, some officers (particularly Confederates) did carry enlisted-style items: The haversack shown for 1st Lt. Hamilton Branch, who served in a Georgia regiment, is one such example.

I recently examined and photographed a leather "haversack," identified to an officer of the 18th Indiana, currently in the collections of the Indiana State Museum. It is still in fairly good shape and has an "enameled" interior with an exterior pocket on the flap (like a modern "key pocket"). Close examination suggests it was more likely a "dispatch case" than something used to carry food.

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[Adjutant]

Barry,

Officers did in fact carry private purchase haversacks. These bags were usually made of oilcloth or leather, usually with an adjustable leather strap and run the gamut from utilitarian to very fancy. As with their uniforms, officers bought their own equipment, this accounts for the great variety among these items. Some of these haversacks have removable food sections or meat tins to prevent the mixing of documents and rations. From reading most original officer's accounts it quickly becomes clear that officers (especially field or staff) often did not carry their own rations, but depended upon their servant to come up with food for them. An example from Elisha Hunt Rhodes diary from Spottsvania, where he served as the 2nd RI's Adjutant:

"As I entered the woods I met Major George Clendennin, Asst. Adjutant on Gen. Wheaton's staff. He had his servant with him and invited me to take breakfast, which I did under fire. We had some hot bread and broiled shad which some one had caught in one of the streams. Notwithstanding the Rebel shells I enjoyed my breakfast."

And this was on the front lines! Another thing to remember is that most officers who had access to horses used them to carry their extra gear. During the '64 Shenandoah Valley campaign Rhodes relates another story. He was captain commanding of the 2nd and witnessed the following:

“A Rebel Battery enfiladed our Brigade and a shot striking the hors of Captain Kempf commanding the 5th Wisconsin Vol., then bounded down the line of his Regiment… The Captain jumped to his feet and shouted: “There goes my…..horse, my…..haversack, my…..blankets, my…..canteen” and so named over all of his traps that went off on his horse. (The blank spaces above may be supplied with adjectives.)”

These elements often make it hard for those of use who reenact in officer roles. I do not yet own a horse (or the money to rent on every event), nor have I been able to find someone willing to act as my servant! To this end some reenactors have found evidence that some officers did in fact carry two haversacks, a private purchase for food and an enlisted man’s for rations and follow this practice. Feel free to email me offline if you have any other questions on officer’s equipment. I have been spending a lot of time (as have many others on this forum) researching it in order to improve my own impression! I am…

[Iron Scout]

Sir,

Here is an example of a CS officer's haversack that was for sale on the private market a while back. This is a very common version seen in the ANV at least with the "crow's foot" straps. Even the rivets are lead. It doesn't appear to have a divider inside. Hope this helps with your question.

Regards,
Neill Rose
PLHA

[79th N.Y.S.M.]

I wear my Haversack and Canteen above my waist. How authentic is this? To me it does not seem like they would be any lower that the waist. Can others tell me were you wear your Haversack and Canteen?

[BrianHicks]

Perhaps the better questoin would be.

What does the period evidence show as to were the actual soldiers wore their Haversack and Canteen?

There are numerous original images of soldiers, with many of them wearing their Haversacks and Canteens. If I remember correctly, in the previous incarnation of these forums, this very matter was discussed.

I'll leave it to someone else who is more knowledgeable of this than I am to recount what the photographic evidence is on how soldiers wore these items.

[KentuckyReb]

I wear my haversack, mmm... high, I guess you'd say. The bottom of it lies just a hair above the bottom of my trouser pocket. Took some cutting & re-sewing of the strap, being somewhat--ahem--vertically challenged. My canteen rides a little above the bottom of my haversack, but I didn't have to do anything to the strap on it since I wear it above my blanket roll and that kinda artificially shortens it.

[NY Pvt]

Try this:

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Oracle/8577/habba.html

It can be found in the Links section of the site along with many other fine articles.

[BrianHicks]

Mr. Utter,

Thank you, that is the information to which I was referring in my previous post.

While it is nice to know what other reenactors are doing or how they are wearing their gear... I think it is far more imperitive that we concern ourselves with what the actual soldiers were doing, and how they were wearing their gear. The information provided by the link offered by Mr. Utter goes a long way in helping us to understand how the soldiers in the 1860's actually wore their gear.

[Clark Badgett]

The longest strap that I ever measured on an original was 44 inches. If a haversack is made from original specs then it don't ride very low. I wear the canteen around the same level simply because that is where it rides comfortably. Now I think I will go look through all my books and do another photo study.

[PrettyBoyDonovan]

I seem like a wierdo. I actually prefer to wear my gear down at my waist. I hurt my ribs a few years back, and found it more comfortable to wear them at the waist.

[Silas]

Nothing shakes down your traps like a ten mile march. If your canteen or haversack bounce against your leg with every step, your straps are too long.

I use different haversacks depending on persona for the weekend and whether I'm carrying a knapsack or blanket roll. Slightly longer straps are welcome with the blanket roll as my total girth increases due to the rolled blanket and other things stowed therein.

You may be able to carry a blanket, shelter half and gum blanket, but could you do without one of those items? Before events, I'm always trying to decide how much is enough gear verses how much is too much.

I see you're with one of the 79th units. Which one? If you're with the Oregon unit, you'll learn something about weight as they undertake a 24 mile march to Ft. Stevens every Labor Day Weekend. Did it with them once during my early campaign days. Hard road the entire way. I was the only guy in brogans who did the entire march.

[JohnnyReb42k]

Here is a question that might need to be answered on the position of the haversack. We all know that it should be worn above the waist. Now is it to be worn under the cartridge box sling and over the belt? Or is it to be worn over everything and then the knapack/blanket roll? This I have always wondered.

It seems to me that a full haversack needs to be secured from flopping all over on the march. And at the double quick it can be known to bounce about. Just a few observations.

[The Pigman]

I have said it before.

You would wear your equipment the way your sargent told you to not how you liked.

Remember you are in the Army.

Thanks,
Mark C. Foster
9Ky co C

[Jimmayo]

Put all your stuff on and take a 5 mile walk. You will arrive at the same conclusion as the original soldiers did. Wear it however it feels good and works for you. You will learn some lessons on this little stroll. Wear your canteen where you can easily take a drink. You don't need frequent access to your haversack so wear it under your canteen and out of the way. Height is up to you on both of these items. The cartridge box will find its way around your body and somewhere on your right butt, out of the way for marching where your arm will not hit it. If going into battle, it would be adjusted for easy access. Belt is usually worn high but photographic evidence shows some wearing it low. If you wear a knapsack or blanket roll you can adjust these as well.

Bottom line is to look at existing pictures of soldiers in the field. There is a great variation in the way equipment is being worn. It was up to the soldier.

[huntdaw]

Before any one else posts "I like mine like this" or "I'm more comfortable with my haversack at my ankles", go to the link that Mr. Utter provided. It will tell you a lot about how these should be carried.

Also, if you wear your haversack strap under your belt, it sure makes it hard to get into when taking a break on the march. Yes, it may bounce around when full, but you have to take into account that we go into a weekend expecting to run, fight, fall down etc. That wasn't the case during the war. I would think it would be more important to get to an apple in your sack during a rest on the march than to worry about the potential that it might bounce against your hind-end if you had to double-time.

[Clark Badgett]

I have said it before.

You would wear your equipment the way your sargent told you to not how you liked.

Remember you are in the Army.

Thanks,
Mark C. Foster
9Ky co C

I don't seem to recall having read this type of sentiment from any American veteran, from any conflict. Also photo examination would easily render this statement false.

[Radical Unionist]

What is the basis for the practice of strapping the cup to the front of the haversack? What and how much evidence is there for this practice?

Jeff Boorom

[RyanBWeddle]

What is the basis for the practice of strapping the cup to the front of the haversack? What and how much evidence is there for this practice?

Jeff Boorom
<img src="http://memory.loc.gov/service/pnp/cwpb/02500/02596v.jpg">

Check out some of those haversacks w/ cups....


From: LOC
TITLE: [Petersburg, Va. Federal soldiers removing artillery from Confederate fortifications]

IT WAS DONE! Imagine that.......
It is probably overdone by the mainstream reenacting community...

[markj]

Hi,

Look carefully at the famous Library of Congress image, showing three Confederate POWs posing by fence rails at Gettysburg, that you've seen a million times. The man on the left, who is apparently wearing a Federal issue shirt (!), has a large tin cup tied to the strap of his haversack. I might also add the man immediately to his left (your right) seems to be wearing army shoes with the heels cut down. I can't send an attachment right now to this forum but maybe some other kind soul will provide an enlarged section of the photo featuring these. If all else fails, you can e-mail me at:

markj@purdue.edu

and I'll send you a closeup of the photo in question.

Here's the bottom line. Simple logic indicates that if you carried a cup, you normally kept it where it would be easily accessible; especially since troops frequently boiled coffee during rest breaks while on the march. There is also plenty of evidence showing that troops frequently strapped cups to the rear of their knapsacks (lip down).

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[justthemiller]

Hello All,

Another source to consider would be Billing's "Hardtack & Coffee." Although the author doesn't spell it out in so many words he basically states that indeed the cup was carried on the outside of the haversack, when it was full of several days rations. If you look at the photos that both Ryan & Mark spoke of you will see that the haversack is at least partially full of rations. It is when the haversack was less than full did the cup migrate to inside of the haversack in order to keep it at least somewhat clean from outside dirt and grime.

[Radical Unionist]

Well thanks guys,

I think the the Billings reference must be where the notion comes from. This must be one of the most blindly accepted practices in reenacting. I remembered a sketch of a small cup on a canteen stopper keeper, but that was all I could come up with off the top of my head. In some circles the practice was stopped years ago, but all I remember about that reason was that "we didn't want to sound like a bunch of tinkers coming down the road".

Jeff Boorom

[Silas]

In addition, every man should be supplied with a tin plate; quart cup with the handle well riveted on, so as to serve the soldier for making his coffee, etc., in case of necessity, as well as for an ordinary drinking cup; knife, fork, and spoon. The plate may be carried in the knapsack, or on the outside of it under the straps, or all the plates of the company may be packied in the camp-kettles; the cup may be carried on the waist belt, or on the knapsack strap and the knife, fork, and spoon should be carried in a leathern sheath which slips on to the waist felt, to be worn in front, and on the left of the centre of the body. p. 643; para. 762.

Clearly cups were hung from haversacks, but when hung, they accumulate dirt, flaura and fauna. They keep cleaner when stuffed inside the haversack. Shove some of the haversack's contents into your cup so that the cup is not a complete space waster in that small bag.

[bonniegreenflag]

Well, your cup does collect dust but when mine gets dusty and full of crud, a srince of water works fine for me. I agree that the cup on the haversac is probably overdone. Of course this brings up another point-many reenactors are afraid of stuff in thier food or drink-IT WONT HURT YOU. Most people reading this have the same opinion-pick that worm and mud out and your ok.

Andrew McQuillen

[hireddutchcutthroat]

The biggest problem I have with the cup on the haversack trick, is that it wraps against the knuckles and musket of the man in the next rank.

[marlin teat]

A very important motivation for a lot us on the authentic side is to not only look like the soldiers we represent, but to think like them. As well documented as their lives are, there are going to be times when we have to put ourselves in their shoes. This is one of the prime reasons for immersion events.

Take a correct haversack and fill it with the correct items, including cup and rations. You will be surprised how little room there is until you've consumed some of the rations. I have a Cavanaugh haversack and a W.V.M. cup that I use for late war Fed. The cup handle isn't connected at the bottom making it impossible to hang from my haversack. I got tired of stuffing a poke bag of rice, etc., in the cup then in the bag only to drag it out every time I needed my cup. I took a square nail, punched a hole in the handle and looped some string so I could hang the cup from my belt, blanket roll, or haversack. I have absolutely no documentation on this but it works.

In short what I'm trying to say is that we should make full use of the wealth of information that is available. But there are going to be times that we have to say to ourselves, based on research and experimentation, "This is how I would have done it."

[markj]

Hi,

Not to beat a dead horse but, while perusing a coffee-table book on the War last night, I noted some examples of contemporary photos and artwork also showing the practice of hanging cups on or around haversacks. One sketch in particular, dated June 1862, is by noted CW artist Alfred Waud and shows troops on the march. Some of them are clearly shown with cups hanging off their haversacks.

I have also attached the enlargement of the famous Gettysburg image for your edification and perusal. Due to my not having Photo Shop on the computer I'm using, I had to take the long way around the barn and paste the image onto a Word document. Anyway, enjoy.

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[RyanBWeddle]

I have also attached the enlargement of the famous Gettysburg image for your edification and perusal. Due to my not having Photo Shop on the computer I'm using, I had to take the long way around the barn and paste the image onto a Word document. Anyway, enjoy.



Don't forget the man on the far right in the same image - - -

Check out the attachment, he has his cup hanging from his haversack strap, and his haversack is of Federal pattern BTW!

[HOG.EYE.MAN]

I find it more convenient to hang my cup from my haversack strap. (As in the great pictures Ryan and Mark provided).

However, if I'm doing an impression where I'm not wearing a haversack with a strap, then I usually hang the cup from my knapsack straps or off my bedroll (At the bottom where you tie it together). No anacanda's here!! :wink_smil

I don't like putting it in my haversack because I usually don't have any room for it.

Just my personal preference.

[hardeesboy]

What do you suppose the item is directly above his haversack is? At first glance I thought it was a canteen, but it appears to be a poke bag of some sort. Any other thoughts?

[vbetts]

I thought this might be interesting to some:

[HOUSTON] TRI-WEEKLY TELEGRAPH, December 15, 1863, p. 2, c. 4
Headquarters District, Texas, New}
Mexico and Arizona, Hawkins’ Farm,}
On Caney River, Dec. 10, 1863.}
To the Ladies of Texas:
The Commanding General announces to you that (20,000) twenty thousand haversacks are required in the army. These are sachels about 14 inches wide and 12 deep, with a flap from the top buttoned on the outside of the sachel, and slung by a belt over the shoulder, passing under the arm.
They are absolutely necessary to the efficiency of the soldier in the field, and cannot be made by the Quartermaster Department, for want of material. The best material is strong, unbleached cotton, but as it is also scarce in private families, they may be made of carpeting, curtain calico of double thickness, table covers, cotton or woolen, or any strong material whatever; and the belt passing over the shoulder and under the arm can be made of the same material, doubled and hemmed, or of buckskin or leather.
The noble example which you have set of undying patriotism and the most unselfish devotion, inspires the Commanding General with a hope that he does not call upon you in vain, when he asks you, as he does now, to furnish with the least possible delay, each, as many haversacks or sachels of this description as you can make, or induce your friends to make. They should be sewed in the strongest manner, and made of the strongest material which can be procured. Should any of the ladies desire them to go to particular regiments in which they have friends, by fixing the name of the regiment to the articles, they will be assorted by the Q. M., and forwarded according to address.
Every lady in Texas is requested to forward as many as she can make to the Quartermaster nearest her residence, and all Quartermasters East of the Colorado are directed to send them, as soon as a sufficient number has been received, to Capt. Wharton, at Houston, and those West of the Colorado, to Capt. Prescott, Q. M. at San Antonio.
Quartermasters of regiments, battalions and detached companies, are hereby directed to make requisitions at once. Those East of the Colorado on Capt. Wharton, and those West on Captain Prescott, for haversacks, in accordance with the number of men present with their corps.
J. Bankhead Magruder,
Major General Commanding
Dist. Texas, New Mexico and Arizona.


Vicki Betts
vbetts@gower.net

[Johan Steele]

I was reading a letter I had copied in the Hysterical Society that caught my fancy, I'm wondering how common the practice was.

"... the new men came to the company with white haversacks and light canteen covers and traps. A dip in the coffee kettle solved that. We veterans had them throw away everything they didn't need for the coming march and soon had them set to face the secesh. A few of these men have already fought the Indians... (unintelligable) not have to watch them much when they make the aquaintance of the elephant."

The man was a Sgt w/ the 4th MN VI writing home just prior to the start of the Atlanta Campaign.

I've never heard of White haversacks in Union service before; would this have been a Western only issue? I can see using Coffee to stain white canvas or white cloth a darker color, it makes sense and I've read of the Brits using Tea to stain their white gear in India... I'm just wondering how widespread White gear was in Union issue... apparently there was at least some in Minnesota troops hands as late as the Spring of 64. I'm assuming it was probably white canvas probably of the same material as tents?

[BerkeleyBorderGuard]

Johan-

Try this link.
http://www.cjdaley.com/haversacks.htm

Have a great day!

Matt Crouch

[BishopLynch]

I was reading Don Troiani's Civil War this week and I noticed that some of the soldiers in his paintings had their cups buckled to the outside of their haversacks. Remembering previous discussions on the A/C I thought that this might be interesting to some of you. Obviously the paintings Troiani does are not original pictures, but this guy goes nuts with teh cup on the haversack. I counted them up in all the painting in the book and throught the book there were 96 men with cups or boilers attached to their haversacks. More interesting is that in painting specific units and just showing one man out of the unit, 99% of teh time they have the cup on the outside. I love his paintings, but hes really gone crazy with that. Go ahead and count them up, maybe even more than I counted. I know that this doesnt really add to authenticity, I just thought that I it was an interesting observation. Check it out if you have the book.

[RJSamp]

OK so if you have 30+ pieces of hard tack and a good chunk of bacon and a couple of poke sacks of coffe, salt, maybe a potato or an onion.....plus a few utensils. and a plate/something to cood with....

Where do YOU put your dipper?

Better yet, take a good close look at period paintings and let me know what you think.....row upon row of uniformly spaced and uniformly uniformed troops advancing with precision and alacrity in the face of the oncoming maelstrom.....advancing as if on parade....nice looking blankets secured to the double knapsacks by the over coat straps.....

Yea right.

RJ Samp

[BishopLynch]

so you are saying what? yay? nay?
The haversacks in the Troiani paintings are not full at all.......if thats what you are alluding to in your "Where do YOU put your dipper?"
And I agree about the period paintings.

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo Kameraden!

To be brief: Period images show both practices. As stated, look to, say, a 3 day ration and then see how well a large cup still fits inside a haversack?

And as a side note, a longhunter friend of mine and Western Eastern, and Civil Artist (David Wright) once shared a story with me concerning the "western art market."

It went something like this, but I forgot the exact dollar values he said the artists received for including different subjects in their paintings. But it does not ruin the story that much. ;-) :-)

Include a buffalo, adds $200
Include a buffalo skull, adds $50
Include a rattlesnake, add $75
Include a soaring eagle, add $500
Include a perched eage, add $300
Include a sunset, add $500
Include a Hawken rifle, add $250
Include a Witney blanket, add $100
Include a beaver trap, add $150
Include a horse, add $500
Include an Indian, add $1000

Etc., etc.

I am NOT implying or stating Mr. Troiani uses this system!

Among some Civil War "illustrators" ("artists" being too kind,) since "art imitates life," they market or target their paintings/prints to what appeals to the different potential buyer market.
Certain illustrators go to so-called mainstream reenactments with cameras in hand to photograph reenactors. When they return to their studios, they use those pictures to compose and paint their "illustrations."
Their work looks like modern day reenactors at modern day reenactments- because there is a market among renactors who look at paintings and prints and see themselves in the actual history of the thing- or whom actually believe "hisotry" to have looked like that.

On the other hand, Mr. Troiani, tends to paint more from artifacts, relics, and "history." And while he often employs artisitc spatial positioning that cannot be achieved in the Real World for dramatic effect and story- his work looks more like we believe "being there" would have been.

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt

[ScottCross]

A white canvas haversack, identical in shape, size and construction to the tarred canvas haversack is in a private collection that I know of. It is IDed to a member of the 8th Iowa, captured at Shiloh. Many western states purchased them privately to issue to their volunteers. Not as common as the tarred version, but they were issued. Beware of post war ones that some suttlers are reproducing and that some CW dealers are palming off as Civil War.

[John E. Tobey]

Mr. Christen,

White haversacks were issued both East and West: Paul Loane owns one type (pictured in the Chancellorsville volume of Time-Life's "Voices of the Civil War") that was Federal issue in the east, and there is another, more common style that appears to have been issued to troops in the West. The actual differences in style are another topic.

I think that an interesting facet of your post is the idea that white or light-colored gear was darkened, apparently for tactical reasons. There is a similar thread in some of John Mead Gould's (10 Maine Rgt) writings regarding men who wore their blanket rolls with the white side of their gum blankets outermost, and an officer who wore a light-colored hat -- Gould implied that this sort of thing made good targets on the battlefield.

Interesting post.

John Tobey

[hireddutchcutthroat]

I find it interesting that he writes about dying his haversack. Did they do it for tactical reasons as Mr. Tobey pointed out, or was it done to hide stains and dirt that are so notorious with white haversacks. Does anybody else have other accounts of this being done?

[Rufus]

In "The Sherman Brigade marches south" Col. Robert Brown wrote about the white haversacks the 64th Ohio was issued, and said that withen a few weeks you couldn't tell they were white.

[21stSCVI]

I'm looking for info to make an authentic tarred haversack. Any ideas?

Regards,

Ken Taylor

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo Kamerad!

From, and courtesy of John Tobey:

"A few years ago, I decided to experiment with period waterproofing recipes. Bearing in mind that the original contractors were working under the same manufacturing parameters that exist today, I knew that the process had to be relatively simple, cheap, yet produce the desired effect.

I eventually found a recipe that seemed to fulfill these requirements. It involved three steps: starching, painting, and varnishing.

The starching part was the same as already discussed.

The paint formula was derived after reading Osman's "Potter's Patented Haversack and Knapsack Paint, 1864" article in the Summer 1994 edition of the Journal of the Company of Military Collectors and Historians. In it, he quoted the 1865 Quartermaster's Manual as specifying the waterproofing to consist of "...pure linseed oil, lamp-black, and spirits of turpentine," with a top coat of varnish. I went back to the period painting manuals and found a simple recipe for "oil paint." The actual proportions I used turned out as 1 cup of boiled linseed oil, four tubes of black artist's pigment (in lieu of lamp-black) and about an eighth-cup of turpentine.

Period paint manuals also pointed out that this paint wouldn't dry unless the temperature was at least 70 degrees, and the drier the air, the better. The original painting lofts had ducts heated by wood fires to improve production, but that's another story. I did the painting in my garage-shop and used a fan to circulate the air. I cheated on one paint job by robbing the de-humidfier from my cellar and using that in my shop -- that helped the drying process even more, but didn't do anything to encourage that "period" feeling I wanted to get from my experiment.

I found that 2 or 3 coats of paint was adequate. The secret here was to put it on as thin as possible. I got the best results from those throw-away foam paint brushes.

The final coat of black oil varnish is what *really* gives the piece its distinctive look and feel. I used the following recipe: 4 ounces of pine rosin, a tube of black artist's color, and a pint of oil all melted together, then thinned with a 1/2 cup of turpentine. One coat of this, and the job was finished. Again, the secret was to put it on as thin as possible.

A similar varnish recipe is frequently seen in period manuals, but instead of pine rosin, it usually called for copal resin. Copal was relatively expensive, and in my opinion an unlikely ingredient for wartime production. One book I used (Johnson's "The Gentleman's Home Book" 1889) made the following comment that encouraged me to use pine rosin: "...this varnish [using copal] is much superior to the common practice of using rosin."

At normal temperatures, the finish has a rubbery feel to it. In extreme heat, it turns greasy, and in the cold it turns rock hard. It will not crack like some of the other recipes using modern paints and, of course, has a distinctive smell.

Sorry if this post is a tad windy, but it's a favorite topic of mine!

John Tobey"

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo Kamerad!

From, and courtesy of Don Cheatham:

"I checked the site for the geocities.com/union_guard/ for instructions. Their prep details with the cornstarch are very accurate; it was a common way of the time to enhance drying time and prevent bleed-through. Their components of the paint recipe are accurate but their proportions are a bit off. Kerosene, not paint thinner, was used to dilute the spreading ability of the Liseed Oil based paint. A typical solution would be 3-2-1. Three parts boiled liseed oil, two parts paint, one part kerosene. A splash of Japan drier would be added. They used dry lampblack powder then. The lead additive added strength and dryability. The latter is outlawed today. If you go with sizing the material properly with cornstarch, mixing boiled linseed oil with dry or liquid lampblack and a splash of japan drier, you will have the basic product. Do 2 coats. The U.S. Specs for Federal haversacks, knapsacks, etc. call for 2 coats linseed oil and lampblack and 1 coat blackened Varnish. You will be amazed at how blacked varnish contributes to the pliability of the painted cloth. Not to metion the imperviousness to weather of the finished product. If you want to be "hi-speed" to the correct varnish, use "Zinsser Bullseye Shellac," clear. It is an original recipe started in 1849. It says so on the can. Modern oil paint products use a recipe derived from soybean oil and should also be avoided. It is far less combustiable than linseed oil based paint. Unfortunately, it also creates a brittle, inaccurate product. It's as wrong as latex paint. Latex is basically liquid rubber. It was developed during World War II, along with nylon guitar strings. Size is a matter of conjecture. I made one the basic length of a gum blanket but a bit narrower. I would love to hear more detailed information about painted blankets.

Dan Cheatum"

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo Kamerad!

From, and courtesy of a poster whose name was not saved:

"Confederate Ordinance Manual Recipe:

There is a recipe from the 1863 Confederate Ordinance manual which I have not tried. Use at your own risk.

Materials:

28 Parts lampblack
1 Part Japan varnish
73 Parts boiled Linseed oil
1 Part spirits of turpentine
1 Part litharge (substitute Japan Dryer for this. Litharge is lead monoxide, and is very poisonous.)

Method:
Mix the ingredients, using 1 oz. (2 tbsp) of Japan dryer per quart of paint.
If you don't want the paint to totally soak the cloth, size it with cornstarch as in the period recipe above.

Apply 2-3 coats until the desired sheen is obtained."

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo Kamerad!

From, and courtesy of a poster whose name was not saved:

This recipe is an approximation, since the original recipe specified "litharge," or lead monoxide (PbO) which is extremely poisonous.

Materials:

Boiled linseed oil
Mineral spirits paint thinner
Lampblack (comes in tubes or dry powder)
Japan dryer
Corn starch

Method:

Make a sizing by boiling about a quart of water and adding cornstarch mixed in cold water until the mixture becomes a little syrupy.
Paint the cloth with the cornstarch sizing and let dry.
Mix one part of boiled linseed oil with one part of mineral spirits. Add lamp black until the paint is a very opaque black. Add one oz. (2 tbsp) of Japan dryer per pint.
With a brush, paint the cloth with the blackened linseed oil and let dry. This can take several days.
Mix one part of boiled linseed oil with two parts of mineral spirits. Add one oz. of Japan dryer per pint.
With a brush, paint the cloth with the clear linseed oil mixture and let it dry. This can also take several days. Two coats of this mixture should give the results you want.
(You can omit the cornstarch sizing if you want, but the oil-based paint will pretty much soak the cloth.)"

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo Kamerad!

While not a period process, I will put this up for a comparison between period and modern methods only.

From, and courtesy of a poster whose name was not saved:

"While this recipe is obviously not authentic, it produces the same look and feel as the original methods. The final product looks, feels and wears as close to the original as most of us can approximate today. However, you need to make a decision as to whether you want to "fake it" with a modern approximation when a good period recipe is available.

Materials:

Wallpaper sizing. Get it pre-mixed and ready to use.
Flat black or semi-gloss interior latex paint ***
Boiled linseed oil
Mineral spirits paint thinner
Japan dryer
(All of these materials are available at any good paint store)

Method:

Using a roller, paint both sides of the cloth with the wallpaper sizing and let it dry. It should take an hour or less. The sizing will prevent the paint from soaking the cloth, and it will give it some "tooth" for paint adhesion.
Using a roller, paint one side of the cloth with the black latex paint. Let it dry overnight.
Mix 2 parts of mineral spirits with 1 part boiled linseed oil. Add Japan dryer. Use 1 oz. (2 tablespoons) per pint of paint.
With a brush, paint the sized side of the cloth with the linseed oil mix. Let it dry. This may take several days, depending on temperature and humidity. It's NOT wise to let it dry in the house.
Paint on two additional coats of the linseed oil mix. Let it dry between coats.

*** There is a variation of this recipe that works very well also. Instead of using plain latex paint, mix 2 parts of latex paint with one part of boiled linseed oil. Stir it thoroughly, then follow the instructions above."

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt

[Richmond Depot]

Does anyone happen to know what historical repository houses the original Moses Alexander haversack in their collection? I recently purchased one from an approved vendor on this list and am not sure of it's authenticity. Mainly I wonder about the machine sewn strap.

[Michael McComas]

Mr. Hanes,

The original is in the Museum of the Confederacy collection. Just about everything you would want to know about this artifact can be found in A Confederate Sketchbook by M. R. Thomas. The strap does not appear to be machine sewn. Thomas noted that it was "single-thread stitching". He usually specifically notes machined seams where they occur. He also indicates that the seams of the bag itself are french felled.

I highly recommend this book for any reenactor or living historian. It contains detailed diagrams of many archetypal items in the hobby.

[Richmond Depot]

Thank you very much Mr. McComas, I had completely forgotten about Mike's book.

[21stSCVI]

Thank you so much for the info...

Regards,

Ken Taylor

[Jake Hill]

Gentlemen,

I have been trying to decide which is period correct, wear ing your haversack high above your waist or low below on your waist? Also same question for proper positioning of the canteen high or low? I have looked through numerous books and photographs and they seem to wear them high and low. Which one is more period correct? If this has already been covered please accept my apologies.

Thank You
Jacob Hill

[markj]

Hi,

Short answer: Wear it in a way that is most comfortable to you. Wartime photos show troops wearing haversacks both "high" and "low" but try lugging around a weight equivalent to several days' rations and you'll quickly find that "higher" is invariably "better," just as it is with canteens and knapsacks.

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[bAcK88]

Here's the link to a thread that you might find useful.
http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1758&highlight=haversacks+canteen

Hope this helps.

[47thNYReb]

I am making a few New England/Massachusetts/Blue-line haversacks and am having trouble finding a clear image of the maker stamp on the front flap. If anyone knows where I can download this information I would appreciate it. Also, Are there any marks on the inside that I am unaware of? I have checked several sources and cannot find any reference to anything other than the front stamping. Thank you for any help that can be provided, Thomas N. Rachal, 47thNYVI. P.S. I am not making these for any commercial venture, just Christmas presents for my pards. I didn't want any vendors thinking that I trying to steal their research for my own financial gain.

[RyanBWeddle]

I am making a few New England/Massachusetts/Blue-line haversacks and am having trouble finding a clear image of the maker stamp on the front flap. If anyone knows where I can download this information I would appreciate it. Also, Are there any marks on the inside that I am unaware of? I have checked several sources and cannot find any reference to anything other than the front stamping. Thank you for any help that can be provided, Thomas N. Rachal, 47thNYVI. P.S. I am not making these for any commercial venture, just Christmas presents for my pards. I didn't want any vendors thinking that I trying to steal their research for my own financial gain.

Not every haversack of this style has a stamp. The item in the Strayer collection in Ohio doesn't...they aren't 100% necessary to complete the haversack.

[47thNYReb]

Not every haversack of this style has a stamp. The item in the Strayer collection in Ohio doesn't...they aren't 100% necessary to complete the haversack.
Thank you! I appreciate you responding so quickly. I was wondering about about that but wasn't sure. Since I live in Florida, my access to original items is somewhat limited, so I am grateful for any assistance that I can get. Thomas N. Rachal, 47th NYVI.

[10nycav]

I read an original letter offered for sale on E-Bay from Albert F. Chandler, 10th New York Cavalry,Co. B, addressed to his wife, dated Dec. 23, 1861, written from the Elmira Depot, Barracks No.2, just before they headed south. Most of it was quite legible although I couldn't make out a few words (denoted by ----). Note that he refers to "harvey sacks" rather than "haversacks." when this fellow mis-spells he does so phonetically so I am guessing this is how he really pronounced this word. Has anyone else seen reference to "harvey sacks" before or have any idea where this expression came from?

I note also that he refers to getting a "roll bag" for his clothing. This may refer to a valise since he expects to get it when he gets his saddle. Is there anything else this might refer to?

Here is a transcript of the letter. I put line breaks where the sentences appear to end--this fellow wasn't much for punctuation.

Ken Morris

Head-Quarters Porter Guard Cavalry
Barracks No 2 Elmira, Dec 23, 1861

Dear Wife,

I am about to leave Elmira and bid farewell to the surrounding hills and pleasant Seanerye
we take our Departure of Tuesday the 24 at 10 Oclock AM we all feel well and cheerfull in consequence of it
we have got all of our clothing compleat also our sabers sabers knots--belts harvey sacks and Canteens
the harvey sacks is used for the purpos of careing our provisions so I shall be oblige to keep the satchell to cary my clothing in untill I receive my Roll Bag which I shall get when we get our horses & sadles
we are going to gedesBurg I do not know wether it is in virginia or pensylvana But alternate(?) it is on the Line some whare --- --------- places
This all now write as soon as you here from me
when we get down to --'-- I shall write as soon as we get settled in our new home ---b
take good care of --- and also your selfe
my Love to all
Give pa my coat Hat ---- that I have set home
when you write to me again tell me whether you got those things that I sent home by -------- or not
Good By
A.F. Chandler

[Company Tailor]

I owned an original a while back (turned it over quickly on a better item) and it also was unmarked. I believe white haversacks in Federal usage is way underrepresented.

[Robert Braun]

I am making a few New England/Massachusetts/Blue-line haversacks and am having trouble finding a clear image of the maker stamp on the front flap. If anyone knows where I can download this information I would appreciate it. Also, Are there any marks on the inside that I am unaware of? I have checked several sources and cannot find any reference to anything other than the front stamping. Thank you for any help that can be provided, Thomas N. Rachal, 47thNYVI. P.S. I am not making these for any commercial venture, just Christmas presents for my pards. I didn't want any vendors thinking that I trying to steal their research for my own financial gain.

Some time ago, I chatted with Don Troiani ragrding the stamp on the unpainted haversack in his collection. He indicated that the stamping was smeared and unclear, however if my memory is correct, he thought it was an inspector's stamp.

If we are talking about the same unpainted drill haversacks in Echoes of Glory I am not entirely convinced they are a product of a New England maker.

Regards, Bob.

[UnionMan]

Bob, I recall you had done some research about the use of these haversacks in the Western theater. A fledgling group of reenactors here in the Twin Cities will be portraying the 5th Minnesota Volunteer Infantry has instructed its new recruits to purchase just such a haversack. The 5th wasn't mustered in until mid 1862, and it has always been my uneducated assumption that this type of haversack would have been a rarity for a new unit in 1862. I instructed the gentleman that either tarred or white would likely be acceptable, but that tarred probably would have been the norm. Can you speak to your findings a bit more?

Thanks,

-Tad

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo Kameraden!

Does anyone know of the location of one such that carries the inspector stamp of W.Giles from Steubenville?

(Or, is it a case of a vendor adding a stamp??)

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt

[GaReb52nd]

Pards,
I am in the process of shortening my slings and making my traps ride higher. My question is how, or rather where, is the best place to cut the canteen strap to re-sew it? Is this a personal prefernce thing? I had intended to cut mine and sew it back together where the re-sewn piece would be at my back.

[JimConley]

Pard,
I just sewed up my strap on my tin drum canteen. It's a personal thing. I see many guys wear it to where the canteen rests on the top of your haversack and some higher. I adjusted mine so it sits about elbow high. The one thing you must remember is to leave enough slack in the strap so it will go over your bedroll or knapsack and not sit too high.

[GaReb52nd]

Actually I know where I want it to ride, I am talking about the two parts you sew together. Are they normally in the back when you wear it or along the bottom of the canteen?

[Jeffrey Przewozniak]

Eallo!

Something to consider would be the process of folding and sewing a canteen strap. This process seems very likely and extremely practical, but has anyone done any research to document its prevalence?

With this method, if the stitches pop out, one would still be able to sling a canteen if and when it happens on the march. Also, one would not have to worry about any raw edges. I am in earnest.

[JimConley]

Actually I know where I want it to ride, I am talking about the two parts you sew together. Are they normally in the back when you wear it or along the bottom of the canteen?

Since many units frown on tying your strap, though many did, I went through Echoes of Glory and found the one tin drum that didn't have a tied strap and followed it. The original had a ticking strap fastened with a bone button. I bought a cotton webbing strap from Wooded Hamlet and folded both sides over, top-stitching them. One side has a button hole and the other has a bone button attached. The button rests on my shoulder when I wear it.

[HOG.EYE.MAN]

I have a question about this issue.

I've been seeing many posts lately about shortening canteen slings and haversacks to ride high on the body. My question is, are the authentic vendors selling these items close to the original length or are they making them "reenactor length" (For over weight reenactors)????? Do you guys cut these slings down because they are coming in the mail too long, or are they sutler row slings, therefore they must be cut down? OR, are you cutting them down becuase you want them shorter then the original lengths?

The reason I ask is because I never had to shorten my slings from authentic vendors. They're usually pretty close to the original lenghts....

I'm just curious why you guys are shortening your slings.

Thanks,

[Vuhginyuh]

I have always thought this boy's haversack strap is altered. If this so it is in a very visable place, apparently near the center of the strap.

[KyCavMajor]

Since many units frown on tying your strap, though many did, I went through Echoes of Glory and found the one tin drum that didn't have a tied strap and followed it. The original had a ticking strap fastened with a bone button. I bought a cotton webbing strap from Wooded Hamlet and folded both sides over, top-stitching them. One side has a button hole and the other has a bone button attached. The button rests on my shoulder when I wear it.

You know its funny, I saw at least two canteens in museums this weekend with tied straps. One at the Cape Fear Museum, one at the Bentonville Battlefield.
I hear, as justification for ostracizing the practice, we never see the knots sticking up on the shoulders in period pictures, well after seeing these canteens I can understand why. They tied the knots elsewhere, so as not to rub on the shoulder.

It is possable these are tempoary adjustments, until a more permanent solution became available. I have personaly resewn mine as I don't like a knot anywhere on my straps, but I don't think we can say "they never did it."

[GaReb52nd]

I have a question about this issue.

I've been seeing many posts lately about shortening canteen slings and haversacks to ride high on the body. My question is, are the authentic vendors selling these items close to the original length or are they making them "reenactor length" (For over weight reenactors)????? Do you guys cut these slings down because they are coming in the mail too long, or are they sutler row slings, therefore they must be cut down? OR, are you cutting them down becuase you want them shorter then the original lengths?

The reason I ask is because I never had to shorten my slings from authentic vendors. They're usually pretty close to the original lenghts....

I'm just curious why you guys are shortening your slings.

Thanks,

I bought mine from Orchard Hill Sutlery. It is the NY Depot canteen with pewter spout and jackchain. It also has the correct depot inpector's stamp. Since this is an approved vendor, the reason I am shortening it is because it rides too low.

[John E. Tobey]

Howdy all,

Although it's tough to say that modifications to surviving artifacts were done during the war, I have seen plenty of canteens with knotted straps that I believe were done during the war. If memory serves me correctly, the one pictured that's in the Gettysburg collection actually has a tag written by the soldier telling how he knotted the strap before some particular battle. I've included a close-up of another original canteen strap that was has a wartime knot in it. FWIW, we should also separate infantry-used canteens from cav-used canteens. I don't know how cav guys carried their canteens, but I've seen a fair number of original canteens with a cav provenance that have straps knotted up really short. At any rate, maybe some of the boyscouts on this board can identify the knot.

Haversacks are another matter. There's not that many original haversacks to look at, and the original straps were made pretty short to begin with. Some original straps that appear to have been field-modified are really repairs made after being broken by someone after the war. Nonetheless, I've included a photo of an original shortened haversack strap. Not sure why the soldier did this, since it only shortened the strap by maybe 1-1/2". It's folded and sewn.

John Tobey

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Being that I am relatively thin and short, I shortened my traps from the correct original length, by cutting the strap with a knife and then tied the sling with a square knot. I find that having my haversack top at about even with the top of my belt is the most comfortable for me.

[10TnVI]

This thread has drifted a bit-so back to the matter at hand-
Jason-your overthinking the problem. It doesn't really matter where you position your strap splice. The original regs don't address it and surviving artifacts don't appear to show a preference. Logic would dictated moving it away from any place like the shoulder where it might cause irratation. Easiest way would seem to be to position it under the lower sling loop on your canteen. If it's an issue-With your typical Fed canteen the strap is easily moved and thus can be positioned anyway the controling officials think is correct. I assume CS canteens will behave the same way.


Pards,
I am in the process of shortening my slings and making my traps ride higher. My question is how, or rather where, is the best place to cut the canteen strap to re-sew it? Is this a personal prefernce thing? I had intended to cut mine and sew it back together where the re-sewn piece would be at my back.

[theknapsack]

Being that I am relatively thin and short, I shortened my traps from the correct original length, by cutting the strap with a knife and then tied the sling with a square knot. I find that having my haversack top at about even with the top of my belt is the most comfortable for me.

There is a canteen on Page 198 of EOG: Union that is doe that way. Not in one place but in two. It is also sewn in two different places. I did my canteen strap (which is correct) the same way Mr. Johnson did. My haversack I did like the picture attached by Mr. Tobey. They ride around the area of my belt. The Canteen at the bottom of page 206 (owned by Private Wm. Peck, 27th Conn.) of the same book is sewn in three different places (2 are easily seen, the third is halfway under the right keeper), and another (a fourth) looks like a field modification.

[Yellowhammer]

"Since many units frown on tying your strap..."

What units are these and what is their documentation for enforcing this "rule?"

There is a wonderful id'd Federal canteen on display in the Gettysburg visitor center that not only has a knotted sling, but a note about when the soldier knotted the sling. If I remember correctly, he looped a quick knot in his canteen as he went into action at Sayler's Creek.

As other posters have said, the vast majority of the original canteen straps I've seen were either intact or knotted rather than sewn.

[gdarrell]

John,

It is not clear, where on the canteen strap is that knot tied? Based on your post, I'm assuming it is not at the middle/centered (top of the shoulder) section of the strap. Is it close to the canteen or higher up on the strap?

As a former "Boy Scout", it looks like a simple "overhand knot" lol.

[Kevin O'Beirne]

My advice is to employ some common sense on top of the learned posts here discussing artifacts. If you elect to "knot" your canteen sling, just put the knot someplace where it's not a nuisance. My Federal canteen with a cotton sling is knotted, and I put the knot near the canteen body, and I wear the canteen so the knot is in the back. That's my preference.

Not (or knot?) only have I seen several artifacts with knotted slings, but there's also plenty of first-person accounts of guys going into battles with knotted slings. For some reason one that stands out in my mind is included in the Gettysburg chapter of Haggerty's history of Collis's Zouaves (114th Pa.), and that's just one example.

If you purchase a haversack from an "authentic" vendor, you shouldn't have to shorten the thing n the first place. To echo John Tobey, the originals have short straps and so should the repros if they're done with attention to detail. Canteen slings, however, were 72 inches long, and that's too long for almost any "thin" guy unless you're as tall as Lurch in the Adam's Family. Cutting and sewing is one way, but in my case I just "knotted" it because it was the easiest, most expedient way to do it, and the knot has remained in place for about 6 or 7 years so far.

[hireddutchcutthroat]

If you purchase a haversack from an "authentic" vendor, you shouldn't have to shorten the thing n the first place. To echo John Tobey, the originals have short straps and so should the repros if they're done with attention to detail. Cutting and sewing is one way, but in my case I just "knotted" it because it was the easiest, most expedient way to do it, and the knot has remained in place for about 6 or 7 years so far.

Mr O'Beirne and Mr Tobey are 100% correct, but like I stated before, even with a correct lenght sling some people may need to shorten the straps. I am 5'9" and have a size 38 chest, so it was nessisary to shorten my straps about 2-3 inches to make it comfortable height.

So if you do need to shorten your correct lenght strap, tieing a squareknot makes allot more sence that sewing the sling. A knot takes seconds to do, and is allot stronger that a sewn joint. Sewing a sling takes quite a bit of time and is murder on the fingers.

[markj]

Greetings,

With the above comments, read what the "United States Army & Navy Journal" had to say in a November 1863 article:

"The bulging double-convex shape of the canteen prevents it from being worn in the regulation ‎style, "on the left side, outside the haversack," especially when the latter is crammed with ‎rations."

Here's my point: I guess the fact that many seem to overlook when they're fixing their canteen straps is that they're adjusting them to fit over an invariably less-than-full (or even empty) haversack‎. Try filling your haversack to the bursting point--what you'd see after stuffing several days' rations in it--and THEN try adjusting your canteen strap accordingly. You might notice a significant difference--maybe even shift your canteen to the opposite side to balance things out and be more comfortable.

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[Jefferson Guards]

I usually put my canteen on after all my other equipment is in place (including knapsack or blanket roll) this allows me to gain easy access to it without having to take things off. This requires the canteen strap to be a little longer than the haversack strap in order for it to go over the equipment and still sit in a comfortable position.

[John E. Tobey]

John,

It is not clear, where on the canteen strap is that knot tied? Based on your post, I'm assuming it is not at the middle/centered (top of the shoulder) section of the strap. Is it close to the canteen or higher up on the strap?

As a former "Boy Scout", it looks like a simple "overhand knot" lol.

The knot is about 12" away from the canteen, but that measurement probably means doodley, because the strap could have have changed position in the loops after the knot was made.

After this thread got going, I went looking for a quote I thought might apply. I finally found it...

The following is excerpted from the Company Order Book of Company B, 156th NY infantry, the entry is dated November 12, 1864:

"...officers and men are further reminded that they are not allowed to alter government property...violations have been noted [particularly] in the case of equipments and shelter tents..."

I think this re-illustrates another consideration for this topic. Canteens and haversacks were "on loan" from the government (Federal at least...I'm not sure about the Confederate system) and not the property of the soldier. Permanent alterations to equipments were prohibited, officially at least as well as in particular commands. This may be a reason for a fondness for temporary alterations like knots or fold-and-sew mods.

John Tobey

[markj]

The knot is about 12" away from the canteen, but that measurement probably means doodley, because the strap could have have changed position in the loops after the knot was made.

After this thread got going, I went looking for a quote I thought might apply. I finally found it...

The following is excerpted from the Company Order Book of Company B, 156th NY infantry, the entry is dated November 12, 1864:

"...officers and men are further reminded that they are not allowed to alter government property...violations have been noted [particularly] in the case of equipments and shelter tents..."

I think this re-illustrates another consideration for this topic. Canteens and haversacks were "on loan" from the government (Federal at least...I'm not sure about the Confederate system) and not the property of the soldier. Permanent alterations to equipments were prohibited, officially at least as well as in particular commands. This may be a reason for a fondness for temporary alterations like knots or fold-and-sew mods.

John Tobey

Greetings John,

I can do you one better. Check this out:

(Extract from regimental order book of the 68th Indiana Volunteer Infantry, NARA RG 94).

Head Quarters 68th Ind[ian]a Inf[antr]y
Camp Dumont Indianapolis Nov 10th 1862

General Order
No 16

I. Painting or marking of any kind upon tents without the permission of the commanding officer is forbidden. No painting or marking whatever will be put upon arms, and no painting or marking upon Knap-sacks, haver-sacks, or canteens except in accordance with regulations.
****

By Order of
Edward A. King
Col Comdg 68th Ind Infy

King was subsequently promoted to brigade command but, I'm sorry to say, he "bought the farm" at Chickamauga.

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[Gerkin]

Gentlemen,

I am trying to make a haversack for myself, and I am stumbling across some trouble. First, where can I get the leather for the buckles? Will I have to dye it myself? Second, does anyone have the recipe/instructions for the painted finish? Thank you all for your time.

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo Kamerad!

Forgetting about the SEARCH feature for these commonly found questions?

http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2530&highlight=Haversack+paint

Local or On-line leather sellers and shops carry "oak-tanned" leather. Yes, the leather needs dyed black, preferrably with a period method. Some blackpowder shops, local and on-line sell it dyed black with modern dye.

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt

[Gerkin]

Mr. Schmidt,

Thank you. I had used the search function, and found that recipe, but I was not sure if it was for a Federal haversack, as all it said was "tarred". Thank you for your time though. And one more question, what weight of leather would I need?

Thank you very much.

[1st Maine Trooper]

Mr. Schmidt,

Thank you. I had used the search function, and found that recipe, but I was not sure if it was for a Federal haversack, as all it said was "tarred". Thank you for your time though. And one more question, what weight of leather would I need?

Thank you very much.

Of the several Federal Haversacks I have had the pleasure of examining, I have noted that they are very thin, in the 2 to 4 ounce range.

Dave Myrick

[Skeet]

I've studied these pictures before and had a question. Would they have worn their haversack underneath their coat? In the one picture I can't tell. Cpl Dan Morgan 10thVA(IVR)

[pvtben]

Hello,

I was woundering if anyone had or knew where i could go to find / get pictures of the originla moses alexander haversack, the baily haversack and the ticking strip po oy suspenders. Let me know all will be appreciated.

Thanks.

Pvt. Benjamin Neal Jenkins
19th La Vol. Infantry
Vance Guards

[theknapsack]

Mr. Jenkins,

Here is a picture of the original T. Otis Baker Suspenders from the C.J. Daley site:

[markj]

Greetings,

Aren't most, if not all, of the items you mentioned shown in the Confederate "Echoes of Glory?" Try looking there first. One or more may also be depicted in the two Time-Life series about the Civil War as well.

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[Stonewall_Greyfox]

Mark,

Now I don't want to start a flame war..but your comment sounded a little harsh. Unfortunately, Echoes of Glory is now out of print...and so not all of us are fortunate enough to have a copy. I know at my county library alone there is a waiting list to check out any of the EoG books. I agree it's a great resource, but it's just not readily available as it may have been a few years ago. Don't want to beat a dead horse...just wanted to inform.

Paul B. Boulden Jr.

RAH VA MIL '04

[RyanBWeddle]

Mark,

Now I don't want to start a flame war..but your comment sounded a little harsh. Unfortunately, Echoes of Glory is now out of print...and so not all of us are fortunate enough to have a copy. I know at my county library alone there is a waiting list to check out any of the EoG books. I agree it's a great resource, but it's just not readily available as it may have been a few years ago. Don't want to beat a dead horse...just wanted to inform.

Paul B. Boulden Jr.

RAH VA MIL '04


They are all over the internet...Amazon, BookFinder, eBay...

For example:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=378&item=6904650949&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

And no I disagree. Jaeger wasn't harsh in any sense of the word. FAR FAR too many individuals overlook the various resources listed on this site. It's not our fault when they can't utiltize them and why should one answer the same question over and over...and check with your library about an inter-library loan.

You live in Richmond? There have to be scores of universities, colleges, libraries, and bookstores that have these books....

Check:
http://www.richmondpubliclibrary.org
I am SURE they have copies in all branches, and are available to work through inter-library loan.

[Yellowhammer]

I agree with Ryan in his support of Mark. The search function is here for a reason and this question is somewhat simplistic given that those items are pictured in a large number of books.

The so-called "Moses Alexander" haversack is illustrated in no less than four commonly available volumes ("Fighting Men of the Civil War", "Confederate Sketchbook", "Tenting Tonight" from the old Time-Life series, and "Soldier Life" from the newer Time-Life "Voices of the Civil War" series.)

However, that haversack is unidentified. No one is sure of the source of the "Moses Alexander" identification but it is fairly clear it is not his. The Soldiers and Sailors System lists 4 "Moses Alexanders" as having served during the war. One was a CS artillerist and the other three were USCTs. In any case, there is no provenance linking that haversack and Moses Alexander.

[markj]

H Benjamin,

Here's another possibility: you might try directly contacting the Museum of the Confederacy to see if they can provide "hard" or digital images of the "Moses Alexander" haversack:

http://www.moc.org/excol.htm

And, depending on where you live, you might even be able to pick up the Time-Life books, "EoG," and the William C. Davis series ("Fighting Men of the Civil War," etc.) at places like "Half-Price Books":

http://www.halfpricebooks.com/neighborhood_locations.html

Indeed, only last week I picked up three unused volumes of the "Voices of the Civil War" series for only $3 apiece. You can pick up the "silver" Time-Life series books for usually $5-7. I've seen "Tenting Tonight" there on occasion. If all else fails, please contact me at:

markj@purdue.edu

and I'll do a little searching for you.

Half-Price Books has been a remarkably good source for many works I own--just within the past month I've furnished Randy Ubben ("Ubben Pipes") three hard-to-find works on tobacciana that I discovered and purchased for a song. "Borders" and "WaldenBooks" (which is also now a part of Borders) are also good places to look. If you check their websites you might be able to track down the items in question and obtain them for their current sale prices.

http://www.bordersstores.com/index.jsp

http://www.bordersstores.com/walden/feature.jsp?file=waldenlocator


Finally, "Fall Creek Sutlers" is only 30 minutes from my home and they do, in fact, sell the "Confederate Sketchbook" (as well as a variety of other works that might be interesting to you) so I can obtain it without any trouble. Please let me know if I can assist you further!

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[fouler]

Looking for any information on haversacks used by the CSA that were coated with linseed oil/turps receipes.
Does anyone out there have info on these haversacks that were army issue?
Any information would be valued. Thanks, Jeff Sankus

Jeff, welcome to the forums. Please take the time to check the search feature for similar information on your subject of interest. - Mike Chapman

[Stonewall_Greyfox]

For a start...the Museum of the Confederacy here in Richmond has a haversack which belonged to a Sgt. Bayley, the bag is painted using the recipee involving linseed oil and turpentine, there are numerous post regarding the treatment...While the strap is left unpainted. There is a picture of the outside of the bag in EoG.

Paul B. Boulden Jr.

RAH VA MIL '04

[Gallinipper]

For a start...the Museum of the Confederacy here in Richmond has a haversack which belonged to a Sgt. Bayley, the bag is painted using the recipee involving linseed oil and turpentine, there are numerous post regarding the treatment...While the strap is left unpainted. There is a picture of the outside of the bag in EoG.

Paul B. Boulden Jr.

RAH VA MIL '04


Mr. Tom Arliskas has also been known to make a painted haversack of similar construction, but which is supposedly documented to AOT/Atlanta Depot issue. I have seen these for sale by him occasionally on Ebay. You might be able to contact him regarding any further information on the subject. I believe some members of this forum may know him personally, and/or may be able to provide contact info.

Rich Croxton

[fouler]

Looking for any information on haversacks used by the CSA that were coated with linseed oil/turps receipes.
Does anyone out there have info on these haversacks that were army issue?
Any information would be valued. Thanks, Jeff Sankus

Jeff, welcome to the forums. Please take the time to check the search feature for similar information on your subject of interest. - Mike Chapman

I would like to add to my original post that the haversacks in question are the type that DID NOT have lamp black color added to the recipe. They have a golden color to them after curing and do darken slightly with age and sun exposure. I believe that the haversack that is in the Museum of the Confederacy collection is the lamp black recipe. I have done a search on this site as well. Another mystery yet to be solved.

Jeff Sankus
3rd Alabama, Southern Rifles

[bonniegreenflag]

I was shopping around on Bob Serio's website, and noticed that two things were very cheap:The Wiley haversack, and the single bag CS knapsack. Why are they so cheap? Are they authentic? The only reason given for either item is that the haversack is entirely machine sewn, as the origional was. Is this haversack PEC? I couldnt find anything on these items on the forum. I assumed they were worthy of discussion because of the high quality of his foot wear, though I certainly could have thought wrong.

[Iron Scout]

Andrew,

Why not ask the maker of the goods why they're so cheap and if they're authentic/PEC. I'm sure Bob would love to discuss that with you. Not trying to be smart but some of those questions are best answered by the manufacturer so give him a shout.

Neill Rose
PLHA
Love & Wienges

[tenfed1861]

I own a Wiley haversack and I think it's beautiful.I don't see why he can't sell it at that price.
Cullen Smith

[MontReb]

CS single bag is a sweetie too, (a CS copy of the US Mex-War bag). He does use a latex based paint, and will tell you that up front.

[Richmond Depot]

Is the use of a modern laytex paint acceptable for items sold by an approved vendor on this board? I would expect the items to feature a correct finish and not a modern substitute.

[hardtack1864]

He was listed on approved vendors, but he's not there anymore, though he was listed as having great leathers, nothing about his other items. Also, apart from the latex paint, his stuff seems really good.

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Is the use of a modern laytex paint acceptable for items sold by an approved vendor on this board? I would expect the items to feature a correct finish and not a modern substitute.


Unfortunately, even from approved vendors, the vast majority of "painted cloth" available is a modern facimile.

The reason the "Wiley" haversack is so inexpensive is that it is a simple design and it is 100% machine sewn. The reason why a number of other reproduced haversacks are more expensive is due to the amount of handsewing involved.

[bonniegreenflag]

Thanks for the info guys, I guess I will have to spend the $95.00 for a ************ haversack. That is the one with the correct paint isn't it? I suppose I should have never considered anything else, but getting an authentic haversack for $29.00 was too good to not investigate. Money is hard to get! :tounge_sm Im trying to get a good haversack for Cedar Creek, and I suppose I will post a new post in the WTB area. Unless the mods would move this post for me?

[Vuhginyuh]

Andrew has found what he wants, the original question has been answered so I will beat a dead horse here...latex paint = plastic.

[Agate]

Latex is the protective fluid contained in tissue beneath the bark of the rubber tree, Hevea brasiliensis. :rolleyes:

The problem with "latex paint" is that most modern paints, both water based and oil based contain polyurethane, as noted.

Rubber was applied to cloth commercially in the 19th century before the discovery of vulcanization. Done by dissolving natural rubber in Naptha to make a paint. The first painted cloths would have been of limited use as one can imagine, the stuff took forever to cure. Other goods of this material were manufactured as well. Rubber waterproof shoes were made by "painting" this material onto a glass form and allowing to cure.

In the 1830s this problem was partially solved by the discovery of the addition of sulfur to the paint in order to speed up the curing process.

It was the 1840s and the discovery by Goodyear of vulcanization, that changed the practical use of rubberized cloth for commercial purposes.

BTW, in the 19th Century, as today, "French" talc was used as an agent to keep vulcanized rubber cloths from sticking together. French talc is modern talcum powder, and is the reason why modern vulcanized cloth has a somewhat "white" cast to it. During the period imported French talc may very well have been expensive, at least to an Army contractor, and my question is if manufacturers of Army goods made of vulcanized cloth substituted a cheaper agent, such as an oil for the purpose.

In the hobby, for years there has been the notion of a 19th Century paint made of rubber, and utilized for "painted" cloth, and so expressed by some. If correct, this paint would have been rubber dissolved in Naphtha (lighter fluid) or maybe turpentine. Modern water based latex paint this is not.

The question we must then ask is threefold:

Was water based paint used at all during the period?

By the time of the Civil War, what uses, if any, would there have been for material coated with raw rubber, a cloth that is, that wasn't vulcanized? Was the process an outdated method of manufacture?

If commercially available, would the Army have accepted it?

BTW, another reason why the "Wiley" haversack is less expensive is that it is made of cotton and not linen. Because it is manufactured of cotton, it "might" place it as an earlier haversack as linen became the Army standard for both haversacks and knapsacks at least by the middle of 1863. It is linen specifically that is called for in contract advertisements.

I say "might" because as with everything, the USQMD purchased different grades of goods. Drawers for example are often mentioned as being sample "A," sample "B," and so forth, and purchased for a different price.

One thing that can be said for certain, oil was used in the production of painted cloth, we know that. Modern materials may not be free of all synthetics, but there is certainly an argument to be made for the use of an oil based mixture for our purposes.

Many of these questions are best answered here:

http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/moa/


With regards,

[Vuhginyuh]

I greatly appreciate Mr. Sarver's knowledgeable and scientific defense of natural rubber latex, but the topic of latex paint clearly applies to a modern synthetic coating. Don't confuse what he (Mr. Sarver) is explaining with a cheap knockoff of a period application.

[DougCooper]

The good news is Nic ************, Don Smith and James Owens are making excellent tarred haversacks with a period finish that is as close as we are likely to get until someone discovers the exact make-up of the original stuff. There may be others but these are the three that come to mind who take their paint formula and construction very seriously.

[Eureka Independent]

Hi All,

Just my .02 here.

Most makers of painted cloth items tend to lean toward Latex due to the quick drying properties (as well it's simmilality to period paint. Unfortunately latex doesn't wear exactly like the real oil paint of the day.)

The period hand mixed linseed oil based paints, weather in Oil Cloth (the emusion soaks through the cloth) or in Enameled IE Painted Cloth (the emulsion lays on top of the cloth due to a under coat of sizing or gesso) has to have a "cureing" time to eliminate the hazard of self cumbustion. Once properly "cured" the product is totally safe ( I have been working with period paint for 11 years now). The curing time takes, depending on humidity 1-3 weeks. In the fast paced repro market of today makes some makers cut the corner of proper paint. Putting on the product Latex with an overcoat of Linseed Oil.

I believe in mixing the propper paint for the items I make. They last longer and end up looking and wearing as the originals after long use ( this REALY makes it important for makers to mark their good so as not have the item infect the collectors market, but that's another subject).

As they say "the Devil is in the details"

All the best,

Don S

[FootsoreFederal]

Hey everyone,
Can anyone attest to the quality of the blue line haversack made by the Haversack Depot? I mean, is it an accurate reproduction, adequate reproduction, so-so reproduction...etc.

Thanks,
Zach Whitlow

[20thMainerCampaigner]

Hey everyone,
Can anyone attest to the quality of the blue line haversack made by the Haversack Depot? I mean, is it an accurate reproduction, adequate reproduction, so-so reproduction...etc.

Thanks,
Zach Whitlow

Do you mean the new england/ohio haversack? If so then yes it's a very good reprodution, I have a haversack depot haversack, I would and i would stand it up against anybody's.

Best Reagrds,
Court Micker

[20thMainerCampaigner]

I forgot something. Chris Daley also makes a really nice one. I've seen it first hand, it truely is a work of art. His contract haversacks are awesome.

Best Regards,
Court Micker

[hardtack1864]

I bought my Daley haversack last year when it was half off and I love it, but I don't belong to a New england, Ohio or Minn. unit. :(

[P.Brown]

As I do not have access to The Confederate Sketchbook or Echoes of Glory and after exhausting all of my other available resources my question still exists. Since I do not have access to the above mentioned resources this may be a very simple question to be answered. Does anyone know what the material, shape or size of the button on the Moses Alexander Haversack was? Also does anyone know when this haversack was made? All responses appreciated.



thanks,
Philip Brown

[roundshot]

According to Confederate Sketchbook it is "tin backed with a lead filled front."
This vendor purports to sell them for $1.75 but I cannot verify their authenticity. Scroll down: http://www.umvmco.com/Accouterments.htm

[jimw]

Am interested in making a early war Federal Haversack from scratch. Need a source for the tarred material and roller buckle. Also, any information on construction would greatly be appreciated. Thanks, Jim

[paulcalloway]

You'll want to read the article by Jack Cox (http://www.geocities.com/union_guard/oilcloth_and_painted_accoutermen.htm)on making oilcloth and painted cloth. I'm not aware of anyone selling oilcloth as yardgoods.

Take special note of his warnings on the use of the materials - some of the materials are poisonous and others are a very real fire hazard.

And Jim, you need to sign your full name to every post.

[jimw]

Thank you, this is exactly what I was looking for.

Jim Worrell
1st Delaware

[Matthew Semple]

The attached pictures are of an antique tin backed lead filled button that I acquired about a eight months ago. It is the same as the Bayley Haversack button (design, weight, dimensions...)

The closest reproduction to these that I have seen is Bob Serio's of Missouri Boot and Shoe. He doesn't have them listed on his site. Give him a call and see what he can do for you.

[hpotter]

I am planning on making a new haversack for an AOT impression. Can anyone let me know what is the best material? Canvas, duct, cotton, etc. Any info would be great. Thanks

[Ross L. Lamoreaux]

There are several good examples out there , as the AoT used a variety of types. I would recommend utilizing the search function here on the site, as there are several threads and posts that go over just what you are looking for.

[PVTJethro]

Pard, You might consider Osnaburg or Ticking. Clifford Earl Hyde ''Chickens in the Storm Mess''

[AZFarrier]

Heath another good material is cotton drill, found in most fabric stores.

Andy Miller
1st CAL Cav

[WestTN_reb]

You can also find a linen drill or canvas in most fabric stores. It adds a little variation.

[32ndalainf]

the different mixes are very interesting to me i have started to make ground cloths and have just been using linseed oil and the black latex paint i am glad i found these mixes because i want to keep them period as possible and am glad to find this material.....thanks .......jason willis

[Kevin O'Beirne]

Original (Federal) haversacks I've seen and handled have almost always been of thinner, lighterweight matrial than virtually every repro I've ever seen.

[MuddyWaterMess]

Howdy folks, I used the search function but was not able to find really what i was looking for. Now i know the idea of the campaigner was to lighten his load. Now for some this means carrying almost nothing but for some this may have been the polar opposite. So with that said the question i have is, there any known accounts, pictures, stories, ect of a solider carrying two haversacks. One maybe for his rations while the other carried his personal effects. Maybe he made one in the field to carry possibly a smaller one. I was curious and wanted to see what everyone else would say. THANKS

BEN

[AZReenactor]

What kind of personal effects did you have in mind, exactly?

I seem to recall that there have been accounts shared of company clerks carrying an extra haversack for the company paperwork.

[BrettKIllinois]

I know that the men of the 55th IL XV Corps often mention using their pockets, to carry personal effects this around the Atlanta Campaign / Sherman's March, they reflected on keeping not only ammunition but personal effects in their pockets.

[BrettKIllinois]

Which makes sense, the records and rolls the company/battalion/regimental clerk would be forced to carry for the Adjutant or commander would be considerable, and not something I'd leave for the teamsters to bring up with the wagons if there were wagons there at all. I'd be interested in hearing the accounts of all of this.


What kind of personal effects did you have in mind, exactly?

I seem to recall that there have been accounts shared of company clerks carrying an extra haversack for the company paperwork.

[Rob]

I seem to recall that there have been accounts shared of company clerks carrying an extra haversack for the company paperwork.

I do not have any original references at the moment, but I've been doing this for as long as I've been doing clerk-work. Papers, pens, traveleing inkwell, and reading glasses fit nicely, and they're protected from the weather as well.

A dispatch case would be nicer, but... what is the likelihood that a common soldier would have had one?

[CJDaley]

The subject of this thread reminded me of an article entitled Two Union Haversacks by Robert Miller in the Military Collector & Historian Journal, Vol IV, No 4, December 1952

I don't know what collection these bags are in now, but it would be cool to see the one with the inner bag as those are pretty rare.

http://www.cjdaley.com/twohaversacks.jpg

[Alamo Guard]

I have read where men had the "opportunity" to get extra rations for one reason or another. They talked about even filling their hats with liquids so why If the situation calls for it, why not? On the other hand If they are on short rations, just eat the crumbs out of bottom and curse the quartermaster as always.
Bottom line is see what the game plan calls for. If you the 20th Alabama at Vicksburg for example, why would you have 2 haversacks? But if you were the 15th Alabama in Penn., it might be another story. Just use common sense and do not farb out.

[Pvt Schnapps]

Elsewhere on this forum, under Camp of Instruction, Research Papers, you will find "the School of the Clerk," which contains most of what I've been able to dig up about military administration. I haven't yet found a reference to two haversacks, though in the past I've used a second one for company records and writing materials. I've since gone, for a company clerk impression, to carrying a portfolio and other papers in my knapsack, and a writing kit in my regular haversack, which actually is documented.

Last year I came across (Andersen, Mary Ann, ed.) The Civil War Diary of Allen Morgan Geer, which has the following eye-opening entry for May 11, 1863, from Utica MS. Geer was acting as orderly at the time:

"Marched at 10 A.M. 3 miles and camped on the left of the road in a fine grove. Here we took a rest. I posted up Co. C’s books & morning reports for the last 10 days."

What's astonishing about this entry is that he's working with the company's books, which he could not have carried on him. This would mean that the wagons were near, and that would mean that when Grant crossed the Mississippi and cut himself off from his lines of supply taking only the most essential stores with him, those most essential stores included the army's paperwork.

It was well that Geer brought the books up to date. The following day he was wounded in the battle of Raymond and would not rejoin his company for a month.

But back to the question. The odds of a Union soldier having two haversacks if he wanted them, would not be insurmountable. They wore out quickly, but over the course of the war the QM Department procured some 4.6 million. While officially classified as "Camp and Garrison Equipage" and thus company property, I've seen haversacks and knapsacks listed in the "Inventory of Effects" of deceased soldiers, which would make them available to be auctioned off with other personal effects on the soldier's death.

[MuddyWaterMess]

Im not trying to "FARB" out was just curious becasue small things can make or brake and impression and dont want to make that mistake. Was just curious and i do appreciate everyones input. Have to say this is a KILLER forum and i am glad to be part of it.

Ben

[DougCooper]

Each soldier was issued one and only one haversack. I suppose you could scrounge another from home or off the battlefield, but an extra single strap haversack on your shoulder is trumped in comfort by instead carrying extra stuff in a knapsack or blanket roll, IMHO.

[AZReenactor]

Ben,
I'm still curious what items you are thinking of carrying that might necessitate a second haversack. While it certainly isn't unimaginable that someone might have toted two haversacks in unique circumstances, certainly most soldiers had no need or use for two haversacks. beyond just carrying an extra foodbag as a man purse, what is the bigger picture? What are you needing to carry?

Im not trying to "FARB" out was just curious becasue small things can make or brake and impression and dont want to make that mistake. Was just curious and i do appreciate everyones input. Have to say this is a KILLER forum and i am glad to be part of it.

Ben

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

These prisoners said that might need some extree in that Yankee prison camp...
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y104/Michael1787/confederate-prisoners.jpg

Curt

[1stMaine]

Comrades,

The only documented use of two haversacks that I can vouch for is by Confederate Ambulance Corps personell. The second haversack, along with a seond canteen and cup, was designed to carry items for the wounded. These included 4 bandages, a tourniquet, 2 large and 2 small splints, a tin cup and a pint of "alcoholic stimulant". The entire passage relating to these may be found in Todd's Military equipage.

So, in this case, the enlisted man would've had two haversacks, but iddued for different purposes. One for food, one for the tools of his trade.

There are also spotty accounts of Federal Ambulance Corps personell, as well as men detailed to assist the surgeon at Field Dressing Stations of being issued similar, but oversized, white haversacks for similar uses as their Confederate counterparts.

Respects,

[Fahlem]

Shortly after the battle of Chancellorsville, Co. F, 1st USSS took a detailed inventory of all issued property in the hands of the 47 enlisted men presnt in the ranks. This was a very detailed report, matching names with a list of columns heading the sheet, marking each name with a check for whatever gear was present upon each person. This included not only the "common" stuff we all consider the norm, but screwdrivers, bore wipes, crossbelt plates, etc....like I said, very detailed. With regards to the haversacks, most on hand only had one haversack marked, but a few, & it seems to be those on detached service or in the hospital, had several...one even having as many as five. I am currently at work, so I don't have the excat numbers in front of me, but it was very interesting to say the least. However, I would not advocate carrying more than one in the ranks. Two? Maybe if you where the only one in the compnay, but beyond that, it gets way out of hand in my humble opinion. By the way, these records reside at the University of Michigan.

Michael Fahle
Co. F, 2nd USSS

[drytortilla]

I've never read a first-hand account of carrying two haversacks but I have read of finding haversacks strewn about after a battle. It seems reasonable that some would have been picked up and carried off. Quien Sabe?
Rodney W. Nance
Live Oak County, Texas

[Rebel Yell1863]

There are some sketches that Alfred Waud drew at Appomattox, VA April 9th 1865, that show Confederate soldiers with TWO haversacks. As to what's in them, it would be conjecture on my part...:D
http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i129/yellowhammer32/twohaversacks.jpg

[Rob Weaver]

There is a quote in Gordon Rhea's book, "The Battle of the Wilderness," which is a list of recommendations from one soldier to another. Included in that list, paraphrased, are an extra blanket, an extra haversack and all the food you can find. I don't own the book, so I can't give you a full citation, but it's in the first quarter of text, IIRC. I believe the recommendation was also from an artilleryman. If so, it's from someone who could ride to war instead of walking, and maybe carry the extra gear more easily. Also, a recommendation isn't exactly proof that someone took him up on his suggestion. When I was in my hardcorest days, I carried a horsecollar, but didn't like the way my personal gear rolled up in it. Too much stuff for a tight roll, but not enough to carry in my pockets without wrecking them. Also, I found it annoying that when I spread out my blanket to sleep, my carefully hoarded personal belongings were in a little puddle next to me. I couldn't afford a pack, but I did already own an extra haversack. It went into use for that purpose, and worked pretty well. I felt justified after finding the abovementioned citation. At this point, I carry a pack, so it's unnecessary, but I keep my original candle stove and sundries to use it therein. It's a bulky shape that I don't carry often, but when I do, I really don't want to ruin it by bending it out of shape (although it's a good bit sturdier than most of the repro tinware I own).

[32ndalainf]

i usually use cotton/duct it pretty stout and takes to tarring pretty well if anyone has anther sugg. i would like to learn it...........jason willis

[Matt_E_Wright]

I came across an interesting contribution in an old issue of "The Watchdog" that fits well into the conversation here....

This is from Volume 9, No. 2 (Spring 2001), page 9

James Owens (Owens Accouterments) writes...

"For several years I have experimented with different paints. In 1986 I spoke with a member of my unit who made several reproduction knapsacks. He had sent several scrapings from an original knapsack to a lab at the University of Maryland. The resulting report indicated the substance was almost pure latex!...."

Mr. Owens continues to write that....

"...During research in the Quartermaster General records at the National Archives, Stephen Osman came across an 1864 letter regarding an inspection of the painting facility of contractor Evans and Hassell in Philidelphia (see 'Potter's Patented Haversack and Knapsack Paint, 1864,' Military Collector and Historian, Vol. XLVI, No. 2, Summer, 1994). IN his report of this inspection, Chief Inspector Neal Campbell of Schuylkill Arsenal gives the formula used by Mr. Potter, chief painter for the firm. At least one person who is a chemist, has seen this and stated that it is basically a receip[e] for latex paint!"

I'll be the first to admit that I know next to nothing about the history of paint, but I do know that James Owens has been make outstanding reproductions for a very, very long time. Can anyone shed some more light on the validity of this passage? Could it be that using latex paint isn't as much of a sin as some would have us believe?

Thanks,
Matt Wright

[AZReenactor]

Folks,
Rather than trying to add variations and looking for what fabrics seem kewl or are conveniently available, it might be better to start by taking a look at original early war Federal haversacks, determine the type and weight of fabrics they are made from and then suggesting to Jim what some sources for fabric most closely approximating them are.

You can also find a linen drill or canvas in most fabric stores. It adds a little variation.

[Kevin O'Beirne]

I apologize for being nitpicky as some would view it, but here it is:

It's COTTON DUCK, not "duct". A "duct" is something through which ventilation air is conveyed in a building.

(I see "duct" in place of "cotton duck" as often as I see "Fort SumPter" instead of "Fort Sumter".)

[Charles Heath]

Not to make a poultry pun out of this, but someone down in Alabama needs to take Jason under their wing. This would be a good thing.

[Rebel Yell1863]

Not to make a poultry pun out of this, but someone down in Alabama needs to take Jason under their wing. This would be a good thing.

Charles, I belive he's next door...... in Mississippi.:D But yeah that would be a good thing!

[32ndalainf]

i have had a few hand sewn authentic haversacks and i have never spent 95.00 i think you are buying more of the name than the actual goods for the most part on some of this stuff..................

[1stMaine]

Jason,

I would suspect that you are paying for an accurate reproduction of an original item, and that cost also includes the Research & Development expenses incurred to ensure quality.

I would rather pay a little extra knowing that the item I was purchasing was well-researched and faithfully reproduced.

Respects,

[32ndalainf]

yes i will not argue on that and i feel that as long as it is correct then hey it is worth a look but the only thing i dont understand is just because it is not expensive or made by an approved vendor of the site (that does have very nice authentic products) then who can say it is not correct . i have done research on haversacks , ground cloths , knapsacks , all the stuff for my kit and some of the stuff i made for myself like my ground cloth for instant i was at an event and someone came up to me and was looking at my ground cloth and was saying how good it looked and the quality but once they found out that i made it they dropped like it had some disease that is the only thing i dont understand

[High-Private]

Hi,

I was wondering if anyone could point me to a CS haversack pattern? I am condering making one myself. I have the "Confederate Sketch book" already, but I am curious about other patterns or dimensions. The ones that I have see in EOG and other websites all seem to be small. Not sure how they would contain the rations of they were ever issued a full ration. I guess the manufactures took ito account the low rations when producing the haversacks.

Thanks,

Kevin Coyle

[Coatsy]

Kevin,

The Moses Alexander pattern in "the Confederate Sketchbook" is a great start to make a haversack. Confederate or civilian. From what I have seen at museums and in photos the enlisted man's haversack was a simple design just to carry the mess gear and food. Officers haversacks get much fancier.

For reenacting purposes I own three Confederate haversacks. One is canvas, on is tarred canvas, and one is made from a blanket aka field modification. They are all patterned after the simply made originals.

I hope this helps you out.

[3alabama]

Kevin, try contacting the curator of the MOC and obtain some write up sheets on haversacks in there collection. I believe each sheet cost $30. They are line drawings and measurements of the item. I do know they have the Moses Alexander,Bayley and the Ticking one in EOG plus a few others you probably haven't seen. As far as size goes they all seem to be relativly small in size, 10 by 13, 10 by 10 ,10 by 11 inches. Good luck with the project

[High-Private]

Hi,

Thank you for the information. I have seen photos on EOG and other web sites and it seems that many are made from striped material. So does that imply that any striped 100% linen or canvas would work?

Thanks,

Kevin Coyle

[Ross L. Lamoreaux]

To say that any striped linen or material will work can be dangerous. Many reproduction materials available from commercial sources are not accurate copies of period materials. There was a variety of different materials used in Confederate haversacks, as not all were arsenal or depot produced - many were homemade or privately purchased. Yes, many were indeed made from linen, striped linen, and the like, but there were also many that were made from cotton, cotton drill, cotton duck, wool, carpet, tapestry, flannel, etc, etc, etc. My recommendation is to pick a particular type that you prefer, hopefully one with some provenance about where it was made, who carried it and when, and begin with that one. Not everyone has the ability to actually examine originals, but with some decent photographs, you can get a basic understanding. Try not to generalize when making statements about "any" material will do. Each original has a certain type of material organic to that actual item. Best of luck to you!

[CSchneider]

Just the small sampling of haversacks in the MOC shows the wide variety of materials that were used for haversacks. The Spinlin bag is made from a fine 25-inch wide blue line cotton duck, the "Georgia" haversack is a fairly heavy plain weave stiped material, 26 inches selvedge to selvedge, the Neal bag is of a heavy plain weave osnaburg with a drill strap, etc., etc.
And mind your construction techniques too. While EOG may call the Spinlin bag a "homemade haversack," its entirely machine sewn. That striped Georgia haversack is entirely machine chainstitched. The Neal bag is handsewn while the strap is done by machine, etc. All three of the bags mentioned use the selvedge edge in construction to save from having to hem an edge. Pick an original and copy it.

-Craig Schneider

[davidf]

Ever since I could not really find any good threads on the subject on the forums here, what sources are there on Union army issue eating utensils? All I know so far is what I have been told by the guy who runs the "Fields of Glory" shop in Gettysburg. Apparently, many manufacturers of utensils were employed by the Union army to make utensils, so that resulted in numerous forms of utensils and no standard forms. Any advice on how to further pursue research and where to buy reproductions of a set that would have been used during the war? I am trying to get away from using equipment that is over represented, like the fork-spoon-knife combination, and to get other pieces of equipment that were commonly used as well.

[Ross L. Lamoreaux]

My research more or less confirms what your guy said - there was no real standard military issue with so many suppliers. The government procured alot of that locally, especially near forts and garrisons, as it was considered garrison equipage and kept with the mess equipments such as plates and cups. Those that were carried in the field by the soldier were more often than not personal equipment self-procured, with the wealth of information on period sutlers showing many lists of eating utensils for sale. Your best bet today is to obtain antique utensils, as they are still commonly found at reasonable prices, often times whole matching sets sold together. I have found that the vast majority of repro utensils are poor at best, with low quality plated metal and poor wood on the handles.

[davidf]

Yes, but how to know that the set you find is accurate to the period?

[Bummer]

I would try to study dug relics where you can--a good relic shop or a larger show--and learn what is most often recovered from Civil War sites, of course there might be some post war inclusions, but you will generally see them as atypical. After looking at original stuff a bit you will see the general trend and be able to pick up some similiar items at most any good antique dealer that will fit right it...and if it is like the dug stuff you will know it is right.

You say that you haven't that much time and that you need the stuff sooner than that? Well to that I would say that if one has the interest in this nut hobby these are the sorts of observances and things that should have been going on for some time now. (And no, I am not speaking to you specificly, but just making a general statement to everyone.)

[Frenchie]

I've been told by a friend who spoke as a youngster with a Union veteran that one way the old boys cut down on encumbrance was to sharpen the edge of the spoon bowl to turn it into a makeshift knife. They tossed away the fork and knife and carried the spoon only, often in a pocket. The old vet also said they tossed their canteens and just filled their cups with water at every convenient stream.

[Gallo de Cielo]

I wouldn't want to challenge what a veteran passed along but I would counter that the weight and/or encumberance of a fork and knife would hardly add much heft to one's load and that a canteen would be the one item a lad would be least likely to chunk aside. The cup theory just doesn't hold up on any sort of a distance march. And if he didn't drink it all down, did he hold a cup in one hand and his rifle in the other? A few holes in that claim but perhaps the old boy did it that way. The numbers of canteens seen in original images of men in the field is, to me at least, strong evidence that they had 'em and used 'em.

I will concur that a spoon is often the best of the three, if one had to pick. A spoon coupled with a pocket (or barlow) knife is a double-threat that can't be beat- something to cut/prong with and something to dip/stir/flip with.

My two cents,

[Hank Trent]

The only comment I can make on using a cup instead of a canteen, was that I've found it to be typical for civilians camping in the period, so it must have worked. The cup was usually carried on the belt. For a camper or hunter, it's easier to document a lone tin cup, in the east at least, than a canteen.

I always figured that the necessity of soldiers carrying canteens was due to needing them to stay in ranks and not having them fall out each time they got thirsty, and sometimes needing them to stay in a location without water such as on a battlefield, while civilians could wander to the nearest creek whenever they chose. But falling back on the use of cups alone would be tending toward their civilian roots.

Examples:

1856 article "Going to Mount Katahdin," the men on a camping trip to Maine wore "various combinations of blue and red shirts and frocks, with black belts for knives and cups." No mention of canteens.

1859 Jottings of a Year's Sojourn in the South: "A stout, bull-headed boatman, dressed in a hunting shirt, but bare-footed... took a tin cup which hung from his belt..."

A detailed list here of what to take into the wilderness includes a tin cup, but no canteen: http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/pageviewer-idx?c=moa;cc=moa;g=moagrp;xc=1;xg=1;q1=tin%20cup;q 2=belt;op2=near;op3=near;rgn=full%20text;amt2=120; amt3=40;idno=AJA2915.0001.001;didno=AJA2915.0001.0 01;view=image;seq=00000349
"...instead of suspenders the pantaloons are kept up by a broad belt, on which the tin-cup may be strung."

More examples and full citations on request.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[WoodenNutmeg]

These appeared in Echoes of Glory and are universally Federal by commission.

http://i14.ebayimg.com/08/i/000/c0/53/7cbb_1_sbl.JPG

http://i2.ebayimg.com/03/i/000/c0/53/7ea4_1_sbl.JPG

[Charles Heath]

David,

Just for fun, take the time to read a section from our unit handbook entitled: "Mess Furniture in the Army of the Potomac," by life member John Tobey. The applicable material is located on pages 167 through 170.

[Jimmayo]

I would try to study dug relics where you can--a good relic shop or a larger show--and learn what is most often recovered from Civil War sites.

Spoons are the most common item of table ware that I have recovered. Table knives are seldom dug when compared to the number of pocket knives recovered. Forks are dug more infrequently than spoons or else they deterioate to the point of being a rust stain and cannot be recognized. I have even dug one of the combination knife, spoon and fork combination tools in a CS trench. Must have stolen it from a Yankee. Some of the spoons are on this page.
http://www.angelfire.com/ma4/j_mayo/uscanteen.html

[davidf]

David,

Just for fun, take the time to read a section from our unit handbook entitled: "Mess Furniture in the Army of the Potomac," by life member John Tobey. The applicable material is located on pages 167 through 170.

Which book is that? If you mean the one the Columbia Rifles is putting out, don't worry, I have that one on order already for Christmas.

[Ken Knopp]

I hesitate to chime in here as infantry particularly Federal, is not my area of interest but I thought I might add some thoughts to ponder. My research of haversacks and canteens for Confederate cavalry strongly suggest that many cavalrymen routinely did not carry them....by choice! I would not suggest that Federal infantry can be directly compared to CS cavalry but some of the points made below are maybe worth considering in this discussion.
I offer the following excerpt that was posted some time before the infamous crash (and subsequently lost I beleive) but maybe worth reposting again now. (please excuse the length) .............

WESTERN CAVALRY (HAVERSACKS & CANTEENS)

ISSUE: Haversacks and canteens among western cavalrymen. As a student of Confederate cavalry, in my research of primary records I have noticed a very glaring pattern in the surviving Confederate cavalry Inspection Reports pointing to a lack of haversacks and canteens among western cavalrymen. It is also found to some lessor degree in eastern (ANV) cavalrymen but that is a topic for another time. I bring this issue to light to illustrate and offer for discussion another reenactor ““disconnect”” or historical mis-understanding, that is.... carrying too much or the wrong gear. In specific, the common, everyday use and/or necessity, of the haversack and canteen.

Author’’s Notes; This is not a scientific nor complete purview of all the available information. I have chosen four different time periods and inspection reports to highlight the ““haversack and canteen issue””. These were chosen because each report encompasses a very significant and/or large portion of the primary western cavalry in the field at three important time periods and, these are some of the most complete reports available.

SOURCES: The following research information regarding the supply of haversacks and canteens is found in the AIG Ordnance Inspection Reports detailing the arms and equipment for various western cavalry commands. They can be found at the Nat'l Archives, WAR DEPT. COLLECTION OF CONFEDERATE RECORDS, R.G. 109, RGM 935, Various Rolls.

1.
Dec 1st, 1863 Army of the West Cavalry. Reports taken sometime in late November 1863.
Setting; At the time this report was taken the Army of the West cavalry had not yet been consolidated under Stephen D Lee and N.B. Forrest. This was very soon to happen in early 1864. Forrest had just been transferred west from the A.O.T. and had arrived in mid- November with about 300 men including artillery. Other cavalry in the Army of the West was widely scattered in Mississippi and Alabama under various independent commanders and duly noted.

Cmdr. Effective Men (approx.), # Haversacks, % , # Canteens/straps, %
Forrest: 2,500 1,500 60% 1,759 70%
Richardson NOT LISTED
Ross 900 700 78% 360 40%
Cosby 529 518
Adams 1,000 280 28% 609 61%
Greer 555 555 100% 555 100% (possibly erroneous numbers)
Chalmers 2,200 988 45% 286 13%
Ferguson 1,900 899 47% 926 49%
Cockrell 1,370 1,119 81% 878 60%

**Effective men are estimations based upon various sources.

2.
May 26, 1864: Forrest’’s Cavalry in North Mississippi.
Setting: This report was taken approx two weeks prior to the battle of Brice’’s Crossroads and is very detailed. Forrest had recently returned from his west Tennessee Raids including battles of Ft Pillow, Jackson Tenn, etc and large engagements against Sooy Smith at Okalona, Miss., etc. In these endeavors he had gathered a large number of conscript men, horses, captured weapons, equipment and supplies. Forrest was near his peak in number of men and horses but not in arms and equipment (as will be seen). Soon after this report, several hundred men were taken from him and returned to other infantry and cavalry commands (w/o their arms and equips) and a portion of his command was detached elsewhere. Since Dec. 1863, Forrest had made a number of requisitions on the Ord. Dept for arms and equipment. It is certain he was sent from various arsenals some 1,350 imported pistols (I believe Lafoucheaux ) from Mobile (Jan. 64); some ““accoutrements”” from Richmond (Jan. 64) and other arms (Austrian .54); In mid-May 1864 he was sent another 3,000 stands of arms and some accoutrements (more Austrian’s from Demopolis). About May Forrest reports that one of his brigades (Gholston’’s) is ““green and imperfectly armed””. Many of the requisitions made at this time (in May 1864) apparently went to fit up that brigade.
*Sources for the above include the OR’’s and author’’s copies of original correspondence and requisitions from various state and the National Archives.

Cmdr., Effective Men, # Haversacks, % , # Canteens/straps, %
Chalmer’’s Div 4,067 1,842 45% 1,437 40%
Buford’’s Civ. 3,615 1,503 42% 1,572 43%
Gholston’’s 1,213 245 20% 257 21%


3.
July 3rd, 1864 (Verona, Miss): 2nd Brigade, Chalmer’’s Division, Forrest’’s Cavalry. Another very detailed report.
In order to illustrate my point I offer an interesting comparison. I note that the 2nd Brigade of Chalmer’’s Division was inspected on the date above and notes the following numbers:

Effective Men, # Haversacks, %, # Canteens/straps, %
2,392 1,359 56.8% 1,898 79%
*1st Brigade (Neely’’s) detached and not included.

Now, Compare the percentages of Chalmers’’ May report to the July report. Keep in mind that at the Battle of Brice’’s Crossroads some two weeks prior Forrest’’s men captured 17 cannon, 250 wagons, 3,000 stands of arms, killed and wounded some 2,000 men and captured another 2,000 men. Not noted in Forrest’’s battle report but obvious would be the assumption of the many, many haversacks and canteens that were part of these captures. Combine this with the many more captures of these articles in the early 1864 engagements at Ft Pillow, Okalona, Jackson and Trenton, Tenn, Kentucky and, add in Forrest’’s many requisitions from Confederate authorities from January through June of 1864. As a result, one should be able to reasonably assume with confidence that haversacks and canteens would have plentiful and NOT LIKELY an item in short supply in Forrest’’s command. RIGHT? Nevertheless, it is interesting to note that despite all of the above one still finds these items in short numbers each and every report especially comparing %'s. In particular, take a look at Chalmer’’s July inspection reports immediately "after" Brice's Crossroads. So, WHY????

4.
July 31st, 64 Wheeler’’s Cavalry. From Wheeler’’s ““Consolidated Monthly Ordnance Report”” By Capt S.P. Kerr. Very detailed. Although dated July 31st it is likely this was taken earlier in July or possibly even in June sometime prior to the heavy fighting around Atlanta when Wheeler was very active but then, maybe not. Again, shortages are noted.

Effective Men, # Haversacks, % ,# Canteens/straps, %
6,734 (in field on hand) 3,228 47.9% 4,120 61%



SUMMARY AND OBSERVATIONS: For certain, there does not appear to be a lot of canteens and haversacks in the western cavalry commands (at least not on paper). I find this very interesting and although I can speculate I can offer no conclusive reasons why haversacks and canteens are not found in greater numbers.

Questions to ponder:
Can we assume then haversacks and canteens were in short supply? With so many reports taken at different times by different inspection officers logic would tell us NO. At least not more consistently than any other item noted.

Can we assume an anomaly in the Inspection Reports? Are we talking about inadequate or inconsistent inspection Reports? Doubtful, too many.
These are but a few of many in the surviving record.

Can we say that the Inspection officers only noted "government issue" items? Possibly, but then would they not apply the same logic to private shot guns, saddles, bridles, clothing, shoes, etc.? Again, with so many inspection reports (I have dozens from all over the Confederacy) I have never seen any “official” ruling on this subject nor consistency in reporting to substantiate that theory.

Can we assume plentiful alternatives to these items? Maybe, but what kinds? Why are these not noted anywhere in the reports, in the Inspector’’s ““remarks”” or other contemporary records?

Rather, I believe (and this is my humble opinion....) the lack of haversacks and canteens are due to ““choice”” by many of the west’’s (and east’’s) cavalrymen to simply NOT carry these articles. I cannot explain why so many would choose NOT to carry a seemingly important item like a haversack or canteen (remember it was a different era) but maybe they did. For example, traveling light, other alternatives and the "hassle factor" are excellent considerations.
Regarding the haversack, maybe some troopers just did not want to fool with them. It is clear from contemporary accounts some of Forrest' men would often eat their "3 days cooked rations" BEFORE they marched! Later, I suppose they reilied on being able to "forage" when hungry. Or, maybe they simply rolled their extra food and belongings up in the blanket roll, tote sack, valise (if they were lucky to have one but again not often noted in the reports) or saddles bags (a rare item for a trooper) and their trouser’’s pockets.

What about canteens? Water is an absolute necessity! What do you think about this...Maybe since the cavalry routinely watered their horses out of necessity, could it be that the lazy or "devil may care" trooper simply took his water at the same time as his horse (carrying a tin cup) and/or when he could at a roadside well, and simply felt that was enough?
---------------------------------
Anyway, this may not relate to infantry but it does present an interesting point to ponder.

Ken R Knopp

PS: I have also read accounts about troopers sharing canteens among his ““mess”” like other "camp" items. Another funny one told about a infantryman that would routinely give away any canteen he found to his "pards" under the condition that he could get a drink when he wanted. After giving away several canteens in this manner it was nothing for this lazy fella to stay thoroughly hydrated by moving among his many pards.

Ken R KNopp

[Charles Heath]

Which book is that? If you mean the one the Columbia Rifles is putting out, don't worry, I have that one on order already for Christmas.

Yes, the 2nd Edition. At one of our annual COIs at Fort Ontario, John gave a class on utensils using originals and his documention from the Elmira training camps. This was a darn fine class, and a portion of the information (with photos) is included with the article in the newer version. In the 1st Edition, Kevin O'Beirne's article, "The Campaigner's Instruments of Culinary Art: Mess Furniture of the Federal Civil War Soldier" also covers similiar ground.

I understand only about 50 copies remain, so light a fire under Santa's third point of contact.