Civil War pocket watches

[Dutchman Dick]

Just what kinds of pocket watches are considered "non-farb"? I collect old watches (don't have many, as they don't often come cheap!). I just won my first key wind/set watch on Ebay (my other watches are stem wind/set and therefore definitely "farb"). I believe it's Swiss and has an open face with a cylinder escapement, and a silver case, set and wound through the back. No idea how old it really is, and it will need a bit of work before it runs again, but would this watch likely be OK for a C.W. impression?

http://i16.ebayimg.com/04/i/000/f1/1b/30b7_12.jpg

http://i9.ebayimg.com/07/i/000/f1/1b/31bb_12.jpg

[New Jerseyman]

Real key is learning who made the watch. It should have a rear cover that can be opened to reveal the inner works. You might find the maker's name and even serial numbers that can be cross-referenced at this web site: www.oldwatch.com.

I have an American Waltham, made in 1866, the same make/model as the watch Lincoln and many CW soldiers carried. Got it on ebay as well, and when I took it to a watch repairman he said he could still see/detect the whale oil they used to lubricate the works. Pretty neat.

Good luck.

[MELowe]

(my other watches are stem wind/set and therefore definitely "farb").

Be careful there, friend. Just because it doesn't have a key, doesn't mean its "farb". Various non-keyed winding machanisms existed prior to 1860, and would be appropriate to carry (if thoroughly researched, and providing you had the money to purchase one).

The first self-winding mechanical pocket watch was invented ca. 1770, by Abraham-Louis Perrelet. Charles-Antoine LeCoultre invented a pendant (or stem) winding watch in 1847 which is the basis for those modern watches at Wal-mart. I have, however, seen unique stem winding and/or setting watches in museums dating to the 1820s and before.

As Mr. Green suggested, researching the maker is a great help. Your average Waltham or Elgin stem wind/set may not be appropriate, but a gold 1850 LeCoultre may be just the thing for a young man whose steel baron father refused to pay the $300 commutation fee.

Your obd. serv't,

[Union Navy]

Try here:
http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7975

Any keywind is probably prefereble to any stemwind. Stemwinds were extremely rare before the war and only found on a few of the most expensive watches. Anything the average American was likely to carry was keywind. Also depends on size - men usually carried 18 or 16 size, rarely 14. Smaller were considered women's watches. Silver case is more accurate than gold: gold cases of CW vintage would have been solid, not the later gold-filled (though the process was pantented in 1859). Silver was more prevalent for a CW soldier. Good luck getting parts for a European Swiss watch - there were so many makers that your chances of finding the correct repair parts is minimal.

[c.irelan]

Hello

Let's open some discussion on watch faces. Although there are many veriations I'm sure most would agree that the most common were roman numbered but even in this one needs to be careful mainly with the #4. What we call The #4 now is the (IV) (5-1=4)
but what many from the time saw as the common was (IIII) as the #4.

[James Slonders]

My 1862 Watch has all Roman Numerals on the face. The face is white, and is made of ceramic

James Slonders

[New Jerseyman]

Great point about faces. My Waltam has the Roman numerals IIII for 4. I'm told the faces were hand-painted.

[VanceGuardsLT]

As mentioned previously, stemwind/set watches appeared before the Civil War, but only on very expensive European models. Although an 18-size American Watch Company Model 1857 keywind/set watch (like the William Ellery-grade AWC watch carried by Lincoln) would be period correct for the Civil War, most Americans couldn't afford them. The cheapest models would have cost nearly two months pay for a working man. A better choice for a reenacting watch would indeed be a Swiss keywind/set, as they flooded the American market between ca. 1850 and 1880. They were sort of the "Timex" of 19th-century watches, at least until companies like Waterbury and Ingersol started making dollar watches in the 1890s. Look in the pages of any newspaper from 1861-1865 and you can see ads for cheap watches. These were undoubtedly Swiss watches.

The problem with Swiss watches is that, unlike their American counterparts which were mass produced using fine tolerances and (mostly) interchangeable parts, Swiss watches were made one at a time, individually by hand. Also, just because you find a name on the face or works of a Swiss watch doesn't mean that was the name of the maker. Swiss watchmakers made literally millions of movements which were sold to jewellers and watch sellers for housing in their own cases, and theyse houses often put their own names upon the dials and/or movements. It can be nearly impossible even for an experienced watch collector to identify a Swiss watch to a particular maker.

So, if you can find a Swiss keywind/set watch that is in decent shape and doesn't need anything more than a cleaning to get it to keep time, then that would be a good start. However, if your Swiss timepiece needs any kind of major work, such as mainspring replacement or a new cylinder staff (or anything else replaced, for that matter), then my advice to you is find another watch that is in better shape. It would cost more to fix an old Swiss watch than it would to buy another.

A wealthy man in the 1860s would probably have carried an English watch, as they were the gold standard in timekeeping then. Or, if they wanted something really fancy, a French complicated watch.

[Union Navy]

Most "faces" (called dials in the trade) were hand painted, often by women, whose smaller hands and greater dexterity were conducive to such work. As for the IV vs. IIII, my research shows that the use of IIII was for aesthetic reasons, to balance the VIII on the opposite side of the centerline on the dial. Past that, it does not tell you anyting about the age or maker.

[Dutchman Dick]

Okay, now here's another, related question: what sorts of watch chains, fobs, charms, or other sundry accoutrements for watches would be appropriate for the AVERAGE Civil War soldier? Someone who maybe wasn't from a dirt-poor farm family, but definitely not well-to-do, either? What we might call middle-class nowadays, in other words. Obviously such a person would not likely have a solid gold chain (unless it was given as a gift, or won in a card game, or inherited as an heirloom, or some other such other-than-ordinary circumstances). I'd like to get something appropriate for my watch that will keep it and its key together and keep both from getting lost at the same time.

[Union Navy]

Silver was common, and hair, ribbon, even leather were occasionally used. Most would have no fobs, charms of other gewgaws to come loose and get lost. These were practical fellows.

[gunboats1861]

Hello, I belong to the national association of watch and clock collectors; my first suggestion to you is to call the association in columbia PA and find out if they can give you more information on period correct chains and watch makers. Second, pick up the "Complete Price Guide To Watches" by Richard E. Gilbert, Tom Engle, Cooksey Shugart; by the way Mr. Gilbert and Mr. Engle run Ashland Investments in Sarasota Florida these two men are a wealth of knowledge. Third, try to stay with American makers the european market was making alot of cheap watches that where not meant to tell accurate time and parts are very hard to find. Lastly, if you must have a european watch then try to find a Tobias this was a very well made watch, sturdy works one of the first european makers to put shock absorbers on the ballance staff jewel (breguet's parachute 1789)

Myself, I prefer the The American Waltham Watch Company 1851-1867 model 1857 ,11jewels, kw/ks, 18 size , 6oz coin silver hunters case a very robust watch one could purchase this watch for the price of $16.00 dollars before the war, then like now the price went to $175.00 dollars during the war. My chain is coin silver with a silver shepards crook look at pictures of Old Abe he has a fine silver chain with shepards crook and i've seen pictures of common soldiers wearing large chains with crooks or t-bars( sometimes referedto as button bars) Its all in how you want to spend that 13.00 dollars a month. Final thought ,make sure you buy from a reputable dealer please... please... please... don't buy from ebay ! because some times the balance staff is broken and that my friend is expensive to have replaced always make sure the balance staff and balance wheel as well as the hair spring are intact. I'm available for any questions I hope this helps all of you, theres nothing like the ticking of an old watch in ones tent, enjoy.

Best Regards,
Ted Wojciechowski

[Dutchman Dick]

I have an old men's watch chain with a t-bar that came from my grandmother's estate. The links appear to be copper or red brass. I have no idea how old it is, though. ANy way to date a watch chain, i.e. certain features/materials not used before/after a certain date?

[Rob]

please... please... don't buy from ebay !

I bought an 1883 Elgin on eBay. It keeps time to about five seconds per day. Not too shabby for only a 7-jewel movement. (Just lucky, I guess.) ;)

By the way, Ashland has an eBay store - they have some awesome pocket watches for sale. So don't count out eBay entirely. You just have to watch your step very carefully. If it sounds too good to be true, then it probably is.

[dwar]

Gents
Check out The Pocket Watcher.com

[Dutchman Dick]

Silver was common, and hair, ribbon, even leather were occasionally used. Most would have no fobs, charms of other gewgaws to come loose and get lost. These were practical fellows.

I found (and won) what appears to be a suitable chain on Ebay. The only thing I can see is there's no place to hang a winding key. Did all chains of the Civil War era have a place to hang a key? Where would a person put their key to keep it from getting lost, if not on their watch chain?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200226588998&ssPageName=ADME:B:EOIBSA:US:1123

[Dutchman Dick]

Got my key-wind watch in yesterday's mail. If nothing else, it will be an interesting addition to my collection. Only thing is, it appears to be approximately a size 6, which would put it in a "ladies' size" category, although the case is rather plain. Would a soldier have carried a watch that small under any circumstances? Or would that have been simply "unmanly" to carry a tiny watch?

[Rob]

I think most gentlemen would have carried a size 16 or 18.

http://www.oldwatch.com/amsizes.html

[Dutchman Dick]

I bought an 1883 Elgin on eBay. It keeps time to about five seconds per day. Not too shabby for only a 7-jewel movement. (Just lucky, I guess.) ;)

By the way, Ashland has an eBay store - they have some awesome pocket watches for sale. So don't count out eBay entirely. You just have to watch your step very carefully. If it sounds too good to be true, then it probably is.

I just found a running Elgin on Ebay of the same vintage as yours, with a coin silver case, for a decent price. Wonder if it's the same model? Also found a "low silver content" chain with a "shepherd's crook" and a screw-type fastener loop for the watch. I'm guessing it's the right vintage; I just don't know where I'd hang a key on it. There's no provision for one on the chain.

ELGIN Vintage Key wound pocket watch. Circa 1882. Serial number 1179222. This case and dial are in great condition. I cannot see any hairlines in the dial but there are a few chips and small fractures on the edges. I think it is an excellent speciman.

The inside case back reads; Dueber Coin 75472 ~ Size 18 ~ Key Wound (key included) ~ ? Jewels ~ Patent Pinion ~ It measures approximately 83mm X 56mm. 83 mm from top of bow to bottom and approximately 56 mm wide. This watch works and is an excellent to addition to any collection.

[Rob]

Here's the skinny on the Elgin:

http://elginwatches.org/cgi-bin/elgin_sn?sn=1179222&action=search

Perhaps you could find a small (about 2") length of chain for your key. Attach it to the ring which holds the hook on. Perhaps a jeweler can dig up a small length of chain to match what you have. Or find a swivel key (with the correct number) with its own ring, somewhat like the following, and attach it directly to or just below the hook.

[Dutchman Dick]

Here's the skinny on the Elgin:

http://elginwatches.org/cgi-bin/elgin_sn?sn=1179222&action=search

Perhaps you could find a small (about 2") length of chain for your key. Attach it to the ring which holds the hook on. Perhaps a jeweler can dig up a small length of chain to match what you have. Or find a swivel key (with the correct number) with its own ring, somewhat like the following, and attach it directly to or just below the hook.


Thanks! While not CW vintage, or even a model available during that time, at least it will "look right", and the price (under $150) was all I could afford. Since I normally carry a pocket watch anyway, I can justify the expense (my normal everyday "carry" watch is a 1920's Swiss "Phenix" 15j). All the WBTS vintage watches I could find in running condition were way out of my price range, unfortunately (champagne taste, water budget and all that).

[Rob]

Thanks! While not CW vintage, or even a model available during that time, at least it will "look right", and the price (under $150) was all I could afford...

That's the same reason I got mine.

I'll get a really nice Waltham one of these days, even if I have to sell my Enfield to get it. The watch would get more use than the Enfield does, anyway.

[Dutchman Dick]

Just out of curiosity, is the "shepherd's crook" an older style of fastener for a watch chain? I never heard of one, until I saw this website. My reprint of the fall/winter 1894-95 Montgomery Wards catalogue only shows t-bars for vest chains, so I'd guess the "crook" was out of style by then; ditto the screw-type loop to fasten the watch on the end of the chain.

[rebjeb04]

Heres a pretty nice watch carried by Thomas A. Wynne of the 4th Texas, Hood's Texas Brigade. I'm not sure of what kind of chain this nice little timepiece would been carried on, but suspect it was probably gold too. This watch was on display at the Texas Civil War Museum in Ft. Worth. If your ever in the Dallas area I'd suggest to everyone on this forum interested in "stuff" used in the "Wah" to give it a visit.

[Rob]

Found on eBay:

1862-63 vintage Waltham (Ellery). Price $200 and rising.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=150255735057&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=005

[Dutchman Dick]

Found on eBay:

1862-63 vintage Waltham (Ellery). Price $200 and rising.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=150255735057&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=005

It's the "and rising" that's the problem. The bidding doesn't end for a couple of days. By that time, I can almost guarantee that price will have doubled, or nearly so. I have yet to find an actual WBTS-vintage watch at a price I can afford.

I got the silver-cased Elgin today, and it is a really nice watch, and the price wasn't bad at all (under $150, including shipping). I'm on a shoestring budget, so I have to get what I can afford after all the bills are paid.

[VanceGuardsLT]

The Wynne watch in the Texas museum is a nice looking watch, but it wasn't carried during the war. It is a Waltham made in the 1890s.