Dismounted cavalry equipment [Archive] - Authentic Campaigner Website & Forums

RedCordCO

03-01-2004, 11:11 PM

Dear Sir:

Unlike some of the responses to your post, I'm not going to dissuade you from doing a dismounted impression. Done CORRECTLY, the impression of a dismounted cavalryman is as admirable an impression as any infantryman or mounted cavalryman.

Having a horse is more than simply BUYING one. There is vet, farrier and loads of feed, board and drugging to keep up with. They all require money only the RICH can afford. You MUST have licenses and vet clearance for nearly ALL events you'd care to go to. Did I mention that you need a trailer and proper pickup to just get the critter to the darn event? Then, the critter must be TRAINED. If YOU aren't trained there is no way you can train that animal and work it the five to six days a week the cavalry ran their animals.

You might want to consider the infantry impression but I feel it is only a starter's impression. It might be good to start in the infantry but don't be set on staying there. Generally, you'll find that your first love, where a branch of the Army is concerned, is the correct one for you. This is my opinion and nobody else's.

That being said and with my having been a dismounted at one time let me offer the following-

Depending on impression and side you choose to take, your equipments will be exactly the same as a mounted cavalryman's. You will have to haul it on your body as you have no horse to do this for you. You might ultimately wish to get a full set of tack. There are some folks who rent out horses at certain events. for this [having a mount to ride at an event] you'd best take riding lessons and actively work with horses.
You will most likely need a sabre belt, sabre, wriststrap, pistol, holster, cap box, carbine cartridge box, pistol cartridge box, carbine and carbine sling with snap swivel.
That's just the basic gear. However after shelling..no BEFORE you shell out the dough for the stuff in addition to the rather pricey cavalryman's uniform and boots, you'd best find a darn good Troop to join. I'm sure there are links at this august site or folks who'd know an accurate dismounted unit. They are very few and far between but they do exist.

Explore the options open for dismounted cavalry before you resign yourself to the long lines of infantry. You will be happier with yourself if you research and come to your own conclusions than to let others decide your choice for you.

R. Burchardt

[I'm not trying to p-off the Moderator of this board. The opinions expressed are my own.]

Coley Adair

03-02-2004, 12:56 AM

Mr. Burchardt,
I'm the moderator of this folder and you will not piss me off with educated discussion. I do a dismounted impression at some point at almost every event I go to. It comes right after my mounted impression, I get off of my horse. It is my understanding that to become dismounted you must first be mounted. I also beleive that a man should do the best with what he has, a cavalry impression can be exspensive, why throw good money after bad and do "half" an impression. There are times when you could do cavalry without a horse, but in my opinion it would be far from PEC. The events that my unit attends and promotes, along with most of the folks in this folder, would not, in most cases, allow a cavalryman without a horse. I would not feel right about "helping" a man develop an impression that would limit his participation in authentic events. For every reference you could come up with for cavalry without horses I could give you hundreds for cavalry with horses.

Mr. Popolis,
If you would like to get a cavalry impression together, with a horse, I think you will find that the Critters and I will go out of our way to help you.

All,
I think this is a discussion that needs to happen, lets keep it civil and see what we can come up with.

crabby

03-02-2004, 07:54 AM

Mr. Burchardt,

Yes owning a horse has it's expenses, I am hardly a RICH man. I guess it is just knowing where to set your prioities. Teaming up with a pard or two in your locale to share trailering, gas, training, etc. can help. Getting your Coggins at the right time can cover a couple (maybe a few) events.

Mr. Popolis,

Coley and the others have sound advice, and resourses. Remember: nothing is worth doing unless it is done right.

Coley (or others),

Any people in the central Ohio area that might want to give a poor 'ole staff type some help in honing his mount's (rider's) skills with gunfire and all?

Crabby
(teamster - Crabby's Kids)

Johan Steele

03-02-2004, 08:08 AM

From a historical standpoint wouldn't a CS dismounted Cav impression be more PEC? At Chickamauga there were considerable CS Cav as Dismounted. I seem to recall most of a Brigade and late in the War shortages of mounts had become all but crippling for some areas. I don't recall Federal dismounted ever taking part in a battle... though I'm sure I've missed it somewhere.

Having done Federal "dismounted"... I know now what I did was a farbfest; but I didn't know it at the time. Unfortunatly, I believed what I was being told. Research, answered a LOT of questions. But I have also seen some first rate Federal Cav w/ a dismounted element. Knowing the drill and the impression seems even more important for Cav to me.

There just doesn't seem to be much worse than a poorly done Cav impression but a good one... leaves a lasting impression.

GeraldTodd

03-02-2004, 09:19 AM

As you see, "dismounted cavalry" is a can of worms that once opened can raise the temprature under more than a few collars by tens of degrees.

So, not to get into "that" debate again...let's say this.

If you are interested in doing quality events - you will severly limit your participation with a pure "dismounted" impression. While history holds many situations where cavalry campaigned for extended periods away from their mounts - those situations simply are not modelled in reenacting.

The quality things you can do as "dismounted" include;
Living history and demos where horses can't be (schools, some parks, etc).
Living history and encampments along side mounted cavalry at small sites.
Your own instruction camps and the like.
Some field exercises.
The occaisional parade.

As you see, this isn't a list of major powder burning events. For that you'll be relegated to the "mainstream" and get lumped in with the truly discombobulated cavalry (mounted and dismounted) - ie, the best impression will be lost in the sauce unless you turn out really significant numbers or know several like minded groups (HA!)

No matter how good a job you do on your impression - you will still bear the stygma of the dismounted. Many a farb has passed here before you deepening those ruts and making the title of "dismounted" akin to nails on a blackboard. Even some "mainstream: events advertise "no dismounted" simply because what's out there is SO god awful. Folks will tolerate the worst mounted cavalry before the best dismounted.

If you are still dead set on doing dismounted cavalry, and really want to do it well - then do it well. Cavalry numbers are generally fewer than infantry (and rightly so) at all but the biggest events dismounted groups are hard pressed to get as many as 60 troopers together and seldom tip 30. Small numbers usually operating independantly and out in front only serve to draw attention to the fact that most of them look, and act like Yosetime Sam. The plainer, more "issued" or average you look, the easier your burden will be to bear.

CS cavalry tended to use muskets, many didn't have sabres - at a glance they shouldn't stand out from infantry very much. Federal cavalry in sack coats and basic issued gear doesn't stand out much either - and that's the trick.

Where you do want to stand out is in quality. Get quality gear, and know your job. Cavalrymen are soldiers, they marched, drilled, and camped just like the rest of the army. If you don't look and act the soldier - there isn't enough jean-cloth on earth to help you.

Cavalry is a mounted arm. While history is rife with cavalry operating dismounted for varying periods of time - cavalry still implies horses. Whether you intend to ride or not, you should learn about horses and horse equipments. You should learn to ride. Be able to saddle, tack, and pack. You ARE claiming to be a cavalryman, no?

You'll note there's a paticular attitude toward the dismounted among those that do mounted cavalry. When the reenactment is over, the cavalry reenactor is still a horse-owner. There's still a living creature to be seen to and cared for, you can't just toss it in the closet till the next event. Besides the obvious costs, and the not-so-obvious costs - there's a great deal of time and effort involved. You can understand then that to the folks that make that sort of commitment "dismounted" cavalry is like claiming the credit without doing the work.

You might also poke your head in at the CW Cavalry forum.
http://forums.delphiforums.com/cwcavalry/start

I hope there was something there to help you make a considered decision.

CJSchumacher

03-02-2004, 09:47 AM

From a historical standpoint wouldn't a CS dismounted Cav impression be more PEC?
There just doesn't seem to be much worse than a poorly done Cav impression but a good one... leaves a lasting impression.

Actually, I believe the order for CS came to find a horse within 30 days, or be re-assigned to the infantry. Julius Franklin Howell of the 24th VA told the story of most of his unit (mostly de-mounted at the time) being transferred to Ewell's command and marched to Dinwiddy County, VA before being captured at Saylor's Creek. This is just one instance, but further proof of the point.

This is such a sticky area...I wholeheartedly agree that you should do the impression right or not at all. That said...it is VERY hard to find things to do to pull off a dismounted impression correctly. I just have a big problem with pretending the "horse" is "behind the treeline" or "over the hill"...when in fact...its not.

You just open yourself up for too much room for question...when you could put a lot of that effort into a much more easily attainable and correct infantry impression.

The simple fact is...no matter where this argument takes place (forums, in person, etc.) the only people usually arguing for it are those without horses. Then they're stuck constantly defending themselves. I just say, save yourself the trouble.

One last thought...if you do end up doing a dismounted impression...follow the etiquette of a horseman.

Example...You are assigned guard duty or whatever...you would be in full uniform with weapons, but...(photo opps. aside) would you ever wear spurs if not on horseback or without the direct intention of getting on or off of a horse?? Of coarse not, but without some semblence of horse knowledge and etiquette you wouldn't know these things. Its just another point of where being a horseman makes your impression that much better.

hireddutchcutthroat

03-02-2004, 10:21 AM

SCTiger

03-02-2004, 10:31 AM

This opens up a great deal of possibilities. We could also have sailors without ships (too expensive). Railroad Engineers without the train and my favorite Ungunned Artillery. You get to wear the artillery uniform without paying for or supporting the gun.

Another solution (possible) could a person rent the horse. Would it be a good way to raise cash for your unit? I guessing that to ride someone else's horse is like petting their dog.

Weird thought but, all of the field artillery units that are without horses (static) are "dismounted" as well. Oh what a barrel of worms that discussion would be!

GeraldTodd

03-02-2004, 10:55 AM

This opens up a great deal of possibilities. We could also have sailors without ships (too expensive). Railroad Engineers without the train and my favorite Ungunned Artillery. You get to wear the artillery uniform without paying for or supporting the gun........yada yada yada

Other than a display of the sort of ridicule he'd have to endure - was there a point to all that?

I think the fellow got some decent points-of-view in a very civil manner and from folks I know have sometimes livid stances on the subject - I see no need to drag it down the the usual "let's poke fun at the dismounted" thread - again.

CJSchumacher

03-02-2004, 11:57 AM

Good news is...there's pretty much zero tolerance on this board so hopefully it won't be an isse.

If there is one part of Greg's statement that can be recognized it's:

I guessing that to ride someone else's horse is like petting their dog.

While a good point, this is usually the way most people get mounted...either first renting or borrowing horses. We leased horses for a couple of years until buying back in the early 90's. There is such a huge difference when you actually do have your own horse, know its quirks, buttons, temperament, etc.

A cavalryman got to know these same things about their horse. When re-mounted, they had to figure these things out all over again. Sometimes, a horse's traits would be purpose for having more than one...such as Grant with Little Jeff, which he rode when he needed a shorter horse with an easier gait than ol' Cincinatti.

Everyone has to start somewhere and I guess as long as they don't show up with your horse in the family Christmas card...then what's the harm in borrowing as a way to start. Besides, having lots of pictures of your horse with others on him is actually a bit flattering. My only concern is having unqualified riders on horseback that can ruin months and even years of training. That's the separation between good horse people and bad or unknowing people.

So, if you're going to do cavalry...you have to go at it with the intention of being mounted and going all the way. Remember...Cavalry traces back to Cheval or "horse". At no time in the history of cavalry, including today, has the nature gotten away from being mobile. Without transportation (even by today's modern standards), you can't be effective and fulfill the role that cavalry plays.

GBaylor

03-02-2004, 12:05 PM

I think that the purpose of this forumis to promote the most acurate portrayal of the common soldier, whatever branch that might be. Sure there were units initially organized as cavalry, but were, in fact, infantry. Those who were organized and fought as cavalry, who became horseless had 30 days to find a remount or were put into infantry service. The only two exceptions (very brief ones at that) were the troopers in front of Petersburg (a battalion) who fought as infantry but within the cavalry corp and P.M.B. Youngs troopers who returned to Georgia to defend Savannah and Augusta dismounted. However, they were eventually remounted and fought with Wheeler through the Carolina's. Additionally, when troopers were without mounts they were often relegated to rear eschelon activities,i.e. provost, clerks, or teamsters. Not front line combat since they would be unable to render their unit any service since they couldn't keep up on foot.

So you can see that the opportunity for doing a correct dismounted role is pretty narrow. I suggest, get a horse (buy, rent or borrow) or do infantry.

John Sweeney

SCTiger

03-02-2004, 01:04 PM

Gerald,

The point is that there are a lot of impressions out there that don't have all of the equipment they should have. Even my artillery unit doesn't (yet) have the horses. I have seen unmounted artillery accepted at c/p/h events but, not unmounted cavalry. Actually I applaud the cavalry for being that insistive that a horse is required for cavalry. In regards to the Unhorsed artillery I actually poked fun at myself and I am more than willing to take a joke. I offered a suggestion that if he couldn't buy a horse then he may want to rent or time share the horse. Two or three people could pool their resources, (not joking) and share the horse for different events.

It takes more than a "uniform" to make an impression.

Greg Deese
Yada yada yada Cav mess

John Popolis

03-02-2004, 03:47 PM

Clarification please. John, are you looking at portraying a Cavalry unit that is no longer mounted, such as several infantry units in the AoT were, or are you looking at doing a mounted unit dismounted?

Mounted unit dismounted, or perhaps temporarily horseless, as at Nashville. But at this point, the whole idea is kinda moot.

major

03-02-2004, 04:47 PM

John
I have been doing dismounted cavalry for years and I have always had a good time and have never been harassed by those of mine or other units that are mounted.
A horse makes the impression much better but I, like you am just not in a position to be able to care for and afford one, so I do the best I can. One other point is that most reenactments around here (Western New York), where I do most of my reenacting will not allow horses. This is there loss but they are the event organizers and we have to conform to their rules.
There is the 1st Ohio unit that I have fallen in with and most or all of them are dismounted. They are located in central and eastern Ohio. I wish I had an e-mail or phone number for you but maybe someone else on the board can jump in and provide it. If you want to contact me direct you can e-mail me at t.schultz5@verizon.net.
Terry

Text was edited to delete references to an event that does not promote the concept or goals of the AC Forum regarding furthering the concept of authenticy and authenticity-based activities. Curt-Heinrich Schmidt, MOD.

CJSchumacher

03-02-2004, 04:53 PM

Terry,

I'm not sure how this in any way promotes authentic cavalry. Lets try to help people understand that above all...do an impression to the best of your ability.

When talking of cavalry...this means having the ultimate goal of being mounted and with a well-done impression. (materially and mentally) To a mounted cavalryman...the horse is everything and the center of your world.

Everything else is an excuse.

Thanks.

RJSamp

03-02-2004, 05:29 PM

Coley, Enough slander of my dead dismounted cavalry GGG Uncle. Here are the facts:
1. 24th NY Cavalry. 12" bootees, Smith Carbines, Shell Jackets, Mounted Trowsers, 1861 Light Cavalry Sabers (from AMES).

2. Fought at the battle of the Crater, Petersburg, VA. Dismounted, Horseless, with Carbines. They were the third wave in the INFANTRY assault, their Provisional Brigade included another Horseless Cavalry regiment and two cannon/limber/horse less Heavy Artillery units. No long rifles in the cavalry.

3. My relative, Charles W Converse, was a cavalry bugler. Shot at the 'assault' of the Crater by a minie ball, while dismounted and horseless (the 24th NY Cavalry may have gotten horses LATER in the war, but did not have them in 1863 nor the first 7 months of 1864). He died at City James Hospital on January 24, 1865 (coincidentally my birthday plus 90 years).

Those are the facts.

Here are some more facts about dismounted cavalry.

1. Most ACW cavalry fighting was DISMOUNTED.

2. The horses were left behind and out of sight, lest they be killed by artillery fire. As in over yonder (behind a ridge or treeline).

3. The scale of American Civil War battle reenactments is terrifically compressed. We are fighting over a few hundred yards of terrain at best instead of tens of Miles. In the big picture of things at this scale where we are fighting for the benefit of spectators you wouldn't see the cavalry dismounting.

And here's your one million dollar question Codey, Lester, Tod, Et Al.

Gettysburg Pennsylvania.
July 1st 1863
Herr's Ridge

How is it that an entire CSA Corps of the Army of Northern Virginia could come stumbling along down a dry road in broad daylight and fail to notice that there was Army of the Potomac Cavalry Division ahead of them? They thought they had run into militia. Infantry. Rifles not carbines.

And then the DISMOUNTED, Horseless (they were way over yonder back two Two Go-Sees and a mosey to the right) cavalry of Gamble's Brigade started stacking them up. with carbine fire.

How would you portray this battle Coley? Ride up and dismount 400 yards away from the Infantry? Didn't happen that way. Ride up in the night befre, camp out and walk the led horses out two miles....now we're talking. If my reenacting battle field is a whopping quarter mile by quarter mile (pretty big in these parts) is it not conceivable that the horses were down yonder?

Later on when you want to fake the mounted charge against Lane's brigade and force them to form 'square' at nearly a mile away you can do that for us.....of course that's a half mile past the horse trailers and in the next county at an American Civil War reenactment.

We had 180 mounted troopers at Morgan's Raid, we dismounted and fought in a fairly tight skirmish line (two pace interval at one time). That's about the best it's going to get.....

But it's awfully tough to portray a cavalry regiment in action at a Civil War battlefield with 14 rifles.....and you won't accept the real answer that they dismounted a LONG ways away from the reenacting battlefield..... and we can't simulate the effects of a 3" rifle shell on a horse at 1,400 yards.....

Many cavalry troopers fought HORSE LESS as well.

Battery Forgeless artillery, horseless artillery, mule pulled wagonless infantry,
bugle clue less commanders...this is Theater Coley, a Reenactment. In your mind it's possible to watch Tolstoy's War and Peace in a THEATRE and come out with a better understanding of what it was like to live and die in that era....even with a minor scale battle of Borodino.

RJ Samp

RJ Samp

major

03-02-2004, 05:36 PM

Chris
We all strive for the best impression we can do. Some do it better than others and some are limited to what they can achieve by money and circumstances. IMHO a well done dismounted impression is better than a poorly done mounted one. I do the best I can within my means and for most that is enough. I just can’t afford the horse, trailer and all the upkeep that goes along with it. The pards in my cavalry unit are a great bunch of guys and I would really miss this if I left to do infantry or some other branch.
Terry

GBaylor

03-02-2004, 05:38 PM

Here, here, Chris!

I agree. The horse is the Alpha and Omega of the cavalryman's being. The cavalryman, doesn't eat, drink, or sleep until the horse is tended to first. One other point I'd like to make, that of horsemanship. As Chris pointed out in a previous post, it isn't merely enough to be correctly accoutered to be a good cavalryman, but knowing how to ride well is also essential. I suggest you read "Congdon's Compendium", written by the commander of the 12th Pennsylvania Cavalry on what was expected of a cavalryman.

It has always been my desire to attempt to duplicate as closely as possible the experiences of the common soldier of the "Late War". That means, in regard to cavalry, to have the best reporduction uniform, equipment, weapons, tack, and horse. Most importantly though, is to live like the common trooper, eat out of your haversack, use your saddle as a pillow, and your saddle blanket as sleeping blanket.

John Sweeney

CJSchumacher

03-02-2004, 05:58 PM

Terry,

I understand what you are saying...believe me...we've all been with units where friendships have meant a lot. Also, the means to keep, shoe, trailer...let alone buy a horse are the biggest obstacle. I've been fortunate over the years to have my father on that end.

My point is only that (even for those bad mounted types) you will never truly understand, appreciate, and hopefully educate the life of a cavalryman without the honor and responsibility of taking care of a horse.

Most that post on this forum understand this and feel the same. We don't "do the dance." Its about trying to capture some semblance of the experience.

Sweeney nailed it when he said use the saddle for a pillow and the saddle blanket as a sleeping blanket. How can a cavalryman without a horse possibly get this experience? You just will never know what its like to pick up a horses feet and scrape crap out of them, curry mud and crap off of them after they've taken a roll on the picket line, have sore legs from constantly banging into each other while riding in ranks, hear their satisfactory whinney after you've woken up and watered them before anything else that day...

I am in no way coming down on any dismounted types, but it is these things that cause the divide between mounted and dismounted. Unfortunately, you just can't understand unless you experience this and again, the horse should be the center of the equation.

GeraldTodd

03-02-2004, 06:41 PM

Coley Adair

03-02-2004, 06:53 PM

RJ,
You think like a farb, you act like a farb and you defend an over represented impression like a farb. Cavalry means horses, I'm looking at a bookshelf full of books that tell about cavalry using horses. You are guilty of researching to justify your impression rather than researching to develop your impression. Would you like for me to cite the thousands and thousands of instances when cavalry used horses? I took a horse to Port Gibson and placed him two miles into the march the night before so I could replicate what was done, so yes, I would march two miles overnight if that was what they did. To quote one my eastern buddies, "god forbid we let history get in the way of a good time." I'll make a deal with you, if you leave out your ancestor, I won't drag my 46 Confederate ancestors into it
Terry,
I don't know you and this is not a personel slam, bit I'll pass on something my father told me long ago. The white stuff on top of chicken shit, thats chicken shit too. I pulled your first post because it was reported, and I agreed with them, by several folks who said it was "farby". By that I mean you are promoting farby behavior.
If both of you gentlemen would look at the top of the page you will see that it says" Authentic Campaigner", not this good enough or well it's better than. There is a better hobby out there, this is my invitation to both of you, Come to Picketts Mill. I'll supply you both with mounts and give you a better understanding of "dismounted fighting." If you don't go, you don't know.

major

03-02-2004, 07:35 PM

Coley
That is an extremely generous offer and one I would love to take you up on but I will have just finished my vacation time by going to the N-SSA Nationals the weekend before and will have to work that weekend. Also it has been 35 years since I owned a horse and I am bound to be a little rusty especially trying to do mounted drill on a horse I just met. But I thank you for the offer.
Terry

Coley Adair

03-02-2004, 07:55 PM

Terry,
It is an open invitation, there will be other events. I reread my post and if it came off gruff towards you, I apoligize. I realized that we have never met and you might not know how to take me. I look forward to a time when we can discuss this in person. I stand behind what I said and will until research dictates otherwise. Good luck at the Nationals.

Pip63

03-02-2004, 08:21 PM

I am glad this discussion is taking place. I have read all the post and I am going to have to say that a cavalrymen without a horse is not exactly authentic. I have been reenacting for 7 years and of that 7, 5 of those years was spent in the farbest dismounted cav unit here in Mississippi. I know from experience what it is like to have the dismounted cav mentality. "Well since we are dismounted it's o.k. not to have horses, we don't need them". After years of hearing this I began to wonder why we were called cavalry if we didn't need horses. Shouldn't we be infantry instead? Well, I guess what I am trying to say is, that a hobby isn't worth doing if your not going to do it all the way. As I started to progress I came to realize this. I would have loved to stay as an authentic dismounted cavalrymen, but I knew that in the end i would be lacking one thing............. a horse. Being a 20 year old college student I knew this wasn't going to happen, so I went to doing something I knew I could do authentically; Infantry. Please excuse my blabbering, I can get off on a tantrum sometimes, but my advice to Mr. Popolis is to do what you know you can do authentically.

Phillip Lasseter
32 Miss Infantry

Tom Craig

03-02-2004, 09:28 PM

Gents,
One thing that we are starting to do better in this hobby is to include the "background" of war. Stuff like the QM department, wagons, and the like. I think that is an excellent advance in the hobby, and really helps to give more of the whole picture of the period. As part of that I would like to see at some point is an unhorsed trooper. By that I mean the poor Jonah who's horse has played out, and so must march on foot behind his comrades. While not trying to advocate for dismounted cavalry, this would be one venue where it would be appropriate. Of course it would mean the guy doing that impression would have to play keep up with his mounted comrades.

Again, not trying to advocate for dismounted cavalry, but there is one aspect that I have been curious about research wise. In the various journals and diarys from 1st Massachusettes Cavalry there are several references to ad hoc outfits of dismounted men being formed to collect them until they were remounted. In the majority of books on cavalry there is little reference to what really happened to a man once he had lost his horse.

Take care,
Tom Craig

lesterschumacher

03-02-2004, 09:36 PM

"Stand To Horse".......He's not a regular----but he's smart" This is a tribute to the soldierly bearing of the classic photo of the federal cavalryman as he "stood to horse",taken a month after the Battle of Antietam, October, 1862.

The war was only in its second year,but his drill is quite according to army regulations--hand to bridle, six inches from the bit. the steady glance as he peers from beneath his hat into the sunlight tells its own story. Days and nights in the saddle without food or sleep, sometimes riding along the 60 mile picket-line in front of the Army of the Potomac, sometimes faced by sudden encounters with the Southern raiders, have all taught him the needed confidence in himself, his horse, and his equipment.

Cavalrymen fought equally well on foot and on horseback (Federal and Confederate). They, however, arrived mounted. Often, Cavalry who could not get remounted after losing their horse were assigned in an engagement fighting in support of the infantry or fighting as infantry.

Good cavalry cannot be made in a month, or even in a year. John buford estimated two years.

Contemporary writings,letters,reports,manuals all describe by both enlisted and officer,Federal and Confederate, what a cavalryman is. .....Himself, his Horse, and his Equipment.

Since I don't have the technology to scan and load "The Cavalryman", I ask the community to re-search for the photo( Based on the information provided- it has been published in many CW photographic volumes) and load it to this thread.

Best Regards To All.......Lester (The Elder)

Lester Schumacher

Strawfoot

03-02-2004, 10:17 PM

"There is a better hobby out there, this is my invitation to both of you, Come to Picketts Mill. I'll supply you both with mounts and give you a better understanding of "dismounted fighting." If you don't go, you don't know."

John Popolis,

If you are serious, and have passion for this hobby, then you should take Coley up on this offer. There is no better mounted group in the hobby than The Critters, and the experience may change your life. I am not being dramatic here.

By the way, I could never do dismounted cav. I would not be able to stand the shameful ridicule and jeering I'd get from my brothers in the infantry arm of service.

Oh yes, we give it to them good.

Mike Phineas
Arlington, TX
Infantry, AoP

KyCavMajor

03-02-2004, 10:38 PM

in researching western theater cavalry I have come to the conclusion there were in fact cavalrymen without horses, a sigificant percentage, for extended periods of time, both Union and Confederate.Some in Garrison, some in the field.
A return for the 7th KY US Company G,in Dec 1863 shows 15 more men than horses. In fact there were only 38 enlisted men, meaning 23 mounted versus 15 dismounted. They were not in garrison,but thrown out as pickets, I will have to see the return again to name the exact post.
Wheeler's cavalry manned trenchs in Atlanta for extended periods, their horses far to the rear.
How many times did Forrest march dismounted men into Union territory to obtain mounts?
Russeu (Spelling?) in mounting his raid had to dismount some units to provide mounts for the outfits that were going as late as 1864.

There are, if we are to be honest, hundreds of such examples.

Now, please note, I am the proud owner of several horses and have never done "cavalry without horses" myself. Anybody need one? I have several for sale.

I DO believe there is a spot in the hobby for those not blessed with a mount that wish to do Cavalry... The thing is it needs to be done right. Right gear, right drill, same standards as anyone else for that matter. A confederate cavalryman without a horse should be indistiguishable from an infantryman in almost all respects. We except artillery with out horses after all. In our unit we are getting all our guns horse drawn, we have four of the six mobile now,but it will be a while before we get the gunners all mounted. Our dismounted stay with the guns. In camp they stand picket duty and clean the picket line, haul hay, ectera, under the supervision of horse owners,all the "joys" of horse ownership without the pleasure of actually getting to ride. To me this shows real determination. Some will progress into riding, they are taking lessons, trail riding, buying equipment, saving for the day they can obtain an animal. We bring extra horses to events to help them along. They are allowed to DRILL ONLY until they reach a point where they are safe.
I encourage anyone who wishs to start off as "cavalry without horses" to buy infantry gear for several reasons. Not the least is the aforementioned resembalnce to an infantryman and if they decide cavalry is not where they will end up, they have the gear to go infantry.
Just my humble opinion.

GeraldTodd

03-03-2004, 08:41 AM

It doesn't matter that cavalry often deliberately campaigned on foot - without being rearmed - without being redesignated. BUT, every one of those units at some point during their carreers performed as mounted cavalry.

The average "dismounted" reenactor has nothing to do with horses, wants nothing to do with horses, and reenacts as "cavalry" to escape the regimentation he perceives in the infantry, and to have the cool toys; piping, pistols, yellow hat cords, Garth Brooks hats, extra cylinders, multiple pistols, and basically do the cartoon cavalry thing.

You can all jump up and down denying it - but over 30 years - THAT is what I saw and heard - and nothing's changed. The dismounted is deliberately farb, and puts great effort and money into being farb.

The few exceptions are...I can't think of any. I know of no full-time dismounted unit that is authentic in camp, gear, and drill - or tries to be. Those that do are actually part-time mounted units. How can anyone argue that dismounted is historically correct when their basic impression makes extras in a C western look authentic by comparison?

A "cavalry" unit must be involved with horses. They may not be a full-time mounted unit, they may have to borrow and rent, they may only do a couple of events mounted a year, but to call themselves cavalry - there must be a horse in the equation. That's just how it is. This is the route you must take to keep up with the authentic side of the hobby.

The hobby is full of folks that want all the fun but don't want to do the work. You can drag out people by the thousands for a farb fest powder burner like Gettysburg, but you never see a large turn-out for outpost style events. No one wants to be a clerk. No one wants to deal with logistics. No one wants to do picket duty for two days. No one wants to do the mundane. No one wants to do what those men did most of the time. Despite all the hype that we're doing this to "educate the public and ourselves" no one wants to do the educational stuff - they just want to do the battles. Dismounted cavalry represents the extreme in this attitude. They've earned it and now they're stuck with it, and there's but one way out of it - and that's on the back of a horse.

Texian

03-03-2004, 11:45 AM

When I started reenacting back 1994 it was with a dismounted cavalry unit. Before I ever set foot on the field at the “Great Battles of the Civil War” in Memphis, Tennessee, various members of the unit presented the “justifications” for why we were cavalry and not infantry. For two years, every event I went to was accompanied by the looks and jeers of others, not because I was participating in an over-represented aspect of a small detail in the life of a cavalry soldier, but because I was a farb. I looked it because I dressed it, I walked it, I talked it, and I looked as though I didn’t care. Well, I did care, and decided that if I am to do cavalry, I am going to do it right. So, on less than $24,000 per year salary I began acquiring what I needed to improve my kit as I could afford to, borrowing a horse, and eventually buying a horse and trailer. No, I didn’t immediately purchase a new kit from Childs or the like, but I started reading the Watchdog, listening to the likes of Todd Kern and Nick Nichols on some of the other forums along with asking questions off line on how to improve me and my unit. My horse, well, he wasn’t a masterpiece of equine development, but damn he was good. In the first six-months of my true cavalry experience he showed me what I didn’t know, what you can’t know unless you’re at stand to horse in freezing weather, without farby gauntlets, and the two of you carrying all that you care to because most of the crap you might have considered taking along isn’t worth the bother. My unit, well, they were and are a bunch of good guys. I liked them then and I like them now. But, folks get into this for different reasons, and there is no changing them. Hell, may be it’s wrong to even try to change them, I know it was for me. I ended up taking a sabbatical from the hobby to decide what was most important to me and to spend more time with family. During that time more quality cavalry units have cropped up with the Critters and the Buttermilk Rangers, both good groups based on the standards of this forum. For me though I am developing a quality infantry impression now, because that’s what I want and need to do. But I’ll tell you, good cavalry appears vastly different from both poorly done cavalry and dismounted by leaps and bounds. They don’t do drive-bys. They avoid saber tinking like the plague. They walk different, because they’re stiff or sore when they finally do get to the show. They’re up early and to bed late, because they live their horse’s schedule, not their own. If they wear brogans, you’ll notice scuffing and wear that can only be achieved by a stirrup and long rides. If they wear proper riding boots and ride correctly, the same can be said as well. If a spectator asks them about the difference in their trousers or some other part of their kit, their response is not just a pat answer of increasing the wear, but to elaborate on the other benefits or deficiencies they’ve learned from the long hard rides. He smells different than his dismounted counterpart, and his kit, no matter how much care is taken, is littered with horsehair (This is rather obvious I know, but my wife brought this to my attention numerous times). And then there are the changes on the inside, having to rely on an animal and the impact that makes on you is the least of it. I wouldn’t trade that experience for anything in the world. And even though my life’s course has changed to where infantry is the way to go, I find it to be farby-thinking to justify doing an impression you can’t replicate no matter how hard you try simply because you just don’t “know”, you can’t replicate the details of the look, and you most importantly can’t think like someone who has or had a horse. You can’t get these things any other way, except by living with a horse. That’s my two-cents.
---Ed

GBaylor

03-03-2004, 12:26 PM

I think Ed just about sums it up.

John Sweeney

John Popolis

03-03-2004, 01:32 PM

Welp, I guess the bottom line is, where the original question was concerned, the dismounted cavalryman is equipped no differently than the mounted cavalryman, save horse and horse equipments.

I think he should do as Lester often suggests: dismounted mounted infantry. Get a top-notch infantry kit, slap on some spurs, and you're set to go!

Well, I think I've been able to digest the info so far. And while I'm not terribly pleased by some of the negative commentary/name-calling that has taken place, the sensible arguments... well, make sense. So I'll drop the thought of a dismounted impression.

But, given the route this discussion has taken:

O.k., so, cavalry has horses, mounted infantry has horses. Why would a mount-less impression of mounted infantry be more acceptable? They did the same amount of work with their animals, although many of the animals in the mounted inf. were mules, not horses. Unless tactics (thus, intent) makes that much of a difference... but in any case, a mounted infantryman will have as much contact (at least on the march) with his horse/mule as a cavalryman. Even the uniforms that the units wore (Wilder's "Lightning Brigade" of Federal mounted infantry, for example) wore cavalry uniforms.

So, how could a dismounted mounted infantry impression be any more acceptible? :confused:

CJSchumacher

03-03-2004, 02:03 PM

They did the same amount of work with their animals, although many of the animals in the mounted inf. were mules, not horses.

So, how could a dismounted mounted infantry impression be any more acceptible? :confused:

John,

The mule statement is a blanket statement and while, yes true for some units...may not be the standard. I'd just be carefull about lumping things as they almost always prove otherwise.

Wilder's men, actually, took to the habit of taking the yellow trim of of their mounted service jackets to specifically distinguish themselves from regular cavalry.

And the "dismounted mounted infantry" statement is made in jest. Its a long-running joke.

Chris

SCTiger

03-03-2004, 02:09 PM

On the subject of Mounted Infantry and the wearing of the Cavalry MSJ, I remember a talk at Chickamauga 140 that the Mounted Infantry didn't like being associated with the Cavalry, so they tore the gold trim off the MSJ's.

So the dismounted-mounted infantryman would look like a plain infantryman. Many of the pictures I had seen of the Union Mounted Infantry at Chickamauga NMBP at the Wilder Brigade display wore unadorned sack coats, brogans, sky blue pants e.g. everything that an infantryman would. So every infantryman could call himself "dismounted infantry" but Why!??!

Schumacher you beat me too it!

Greg Deese
Confused at this whole idea mess

CJSchumacher

03-03-2004, 02:20 PM

So the dismounted-mounted infantryman would look like a plain infantryman. Many of the pictures I had seen of the Union Mounted Infantry at Chickamauga NMBP at the Wilder Brigade display wore unadorned sack coats, brogans, sky blkue pants e.g. everything that an infantryman would.

Greg,

Good additional info. The Company of Military Historians did a great study on Wilder's brigad complete with a color plate of representative unit members. They in fact were issued as infantry, of coarse getting those cool spencer rifles. You're quite correct regarding the standard uniforming and the article also states how they carried their gear on horseback. Most men managed a way to cut the knapsack so that they could attach it to the cantle of the McClellan saddle. (I tried to figure a way to do this without cutting for my mounted forager impression at the Bentonville preservation march in 2000, before giving up and just carrying my knapsack on my back) They also took to the habit of hanging their cartridge boxes by the cartridge box belt on the offside pommel.

There's also the phenomenal picture of the guy on a grey with surcingle as a breaststrap holding a spencer with sky blues, sack coat, boots and black slouch hat in EoG.

Anyway, a really great unit...even if this is offtopic!

Chris

marlin teat

03-03-2004, 03:10 PM

For what it's worth,

A lot of the animosity toward dismounted cav. is second and third generation hand-me-down in this hobby. There are a few of us still around that remember the mid and early 80's when it seemed that everyone was a dismounted cavalryman. In those days it was the mainstream fashion to have as much yellow striping and feathers and as many pistols and sabers as a fellow could carry (remember, this was over 20 years ago).

Believe it or not the what we think of as "mainstream" began as a backlash to the dismounted cavalry much as the authentic movement has distanced themselves from the tent city campers. My first unit was a hostile split from a dismounted unit. The dismounts slowly fazed out when events began banning them and the unit that split off is still around somewhere in mainstream land.

I don't have a dog in this hunt, but I thought you should know the reason that the term "dismounted cavalry" stirs such passion.

KyCavMajor

03-03-2004, 06:04 PM

A poor kit is a poor kit. It does not matter if it is sitting on a horse or not.It is not that there was never any "cavalry with out horses", the arguements against doing run the gamut of "its always been done farby" and "there are no respectable units" to "only lazy reenactors do it". But to just say it CAN'T be done because it HASN"T been done RIGHT seems a little pessimistic.
I personaly would rather see a nice kit on a "cavalryman without a horse" than another well mounted, yellow trimmed polyester jacketed, east german surplus booted cowboy.
Mr Adair and others would still be a good impression if they didn't bring a horse, and would add a lot to any event.
There ARE many who view "cavalry with out horses" as an easy way out, not wanting to do the work. All the while wondering why people scoff at his Walmart,"hey, they had them, I saw a picture once" Hawkin rifle.
Perhaps the next generation of renactor can change the way it has always been done. I can remember when there was no good cavalry at all(its still pretty rare), no good infantry, and we are just starting to see better artillery.
I say if someone wants to try to change the world, God Bless em.

John Popolis

03-03-2004, 07:28 PM

O.k., as a joke dismounted mounted infantry makes more sense. Otherwise, it just seems like semantics.

I've got a book on Wilder's brigade, and it has quite a few pics of soldiers in MSJ's (not exclusively, of course). Although the author said the men had piping on their jackets, I couldn't see much, if any... I assumed I was just not used to looking for that kind of detail in a b&w photo.

As a general opinion, a really good mounted infantry impression should look like infantry, except you should have a horse. Is this somewhat accurate?

I think this is somewhat germane to the cavalry discussion because of the, admittedly superficial, resemblance between cavalry and mounted infantry. To do one right, the other will (probably) be wrong. Plus, I'm trying to sort out information and, hopefully, get some kind of object lesson from all this.

Anyhoo, thank you all.

GBaylor

03-04-2004, 07:39 AM

John,

Without trying to come across in demeaning way,there just is no way to portray (within the context of this forum) a cavalryman or mounted infantryman without the mount. That's not to say that other areas of the reenacting hobby wouldn't welcome you with open arms. It's akin to being a tanker without a tank (all dressed up and nowhere to go). There is no shame in doing infantry. I did it for over twenty five years in both reenacting and the real world. However, the folks who promote this forum are trying to take our section of the hobby to the next level (not was is merely acceptable, but what is correct and accurate as a whole). As has been posted previously, you can't achieve that as a full-time dismounted cavalryman or dismounted/mounted infantryman. If you ask advice from those who's mindset is thus, be prepared for the answers.

Respectfully,
John Sweeney

cavman63

03-04-2004, 09:25 AM

RJ, I do not know you. I have never seen your impresssion but take Coley up on his offer to mount you for Pickett's Mill, after you have spent a weekend tending your horse, mounting at all hours, riding hard to a fight dismounting to go in and scrambling through the thick woods to mount and get out quickly so you can repeat the whole process a dozen times or so in one day, then when its over tend your horse NOT yourself then my friend you MAY come to understand why we as MOUNTED cav find most dismounted an insult.
Patrick Mcallister
CritterCompany
ps. believe me we know what it is like to leave your horse FAR to the rear and have to haul yourself and all weapons into a fight then back "over yonder" to our horses. do you?

MountedRifle

03-04-2004, 09:28 AM

As one who is trying to break the mold on Cavalry and do an authentic Mounted Infantry impression the mount is essential. Equipped as infantry with the speed of a mount is the best of both worlds in my opinion. Some have said that Wilder's Lightening Brigade and others were the forerunners of the modern mechanised army. Those who want to be a part of what we are doing but don't have a horse, tack, saddles, etc. must be willing to learn. Also, those who whatever reason who cannot are referred to another group we work with who are strictly infantry.

Mark White
16th Missouri Mounted Infantry (Jackman's)
Lone Jack Mess

Linda_Trent

03-04-2004, 09:42 AM

I have seen unmounted artillery accepted at c/p/h events but, not unmounted cavalry.

Actually, this thread brings up another point, what is historically documented to the particular time, location, and company/regiment being portrayed?

Take, for example, the Struggle for Statehood event (hardcore, full immersion event). If a mounted cavalry unit applied to attend, they'd be asked to leave their horses at home.

According to the ORs General Jenkins and his men were coming out of winter quarters and they still didn't have their mounts which were on forage in North Carolina. So having horses would be farby at this specific event which depicts April 1-3, 1863. Jenkins and his men didn't get their mounts back for another month. Course many of Jenkins' men were also barefoot, ragged, and starving at this time as well, (documented by one of his own men, and also by Rutherford Hayes who encountered Jenkins' men shortly after their raid on Point Pleasant.), which is one reason that he attempted the raid on a heavily stocked Union post. Heaven forbid! Dismounted, barefoot, ragged and starving! :mouth_clo

Now the civilians will have period-type horses, cattle, and chickens, and a pig (the latter probably not an heirloom variety, but it was hard enough to just find a pig!), so it's not that we don't want, or can't have horses. Just that it would be incorrect for the time, place and regiment being portrayed. :regular_s

I'm not defending the dismounted cavalry, but I am saying that one needs to research, and there can be occasions, like SFS, where a cavalry can be temporarily (at least in the early spring) dismounted. Heck, I'd have never guessed that a cavalry would make a daring raid upon a Union post unmounted, but they did :tounge_sm

There are several links to Jenkins' raid and such from the Struggle for Statehood homepage at
http://struggleforstatehood.homestead.com/index.html

Just my two cents worth :wink_smil

Linda

Texian

03-04-2004, 10:37 AM

I personaly would rather see a nice kit on a "cavalryman without a horse" than another well mounted, yellow trimmed polyester jacketed, east german surplus booted cowboy.
Mr Adair and others would still be a good impression if they didn't bring a horse, and would add a lot to any event.
Two things...1) If I make the effort to put together a good kit, choose events wisely, and put faith into event coordinators that upon arrival my weekend of fun will not be corrupted by farbisms, both physical and cognitive, then "no" I don't want to see a cavalryman without a house, good kit or not, when his best excuse is simply portraying an over-represented portion of the war that in total is an exception not the rule. This board is about the rule. If he has a good cavalry kit then he is on his way to the rule, but without the horse he will never arrive. 2) I have no doubt in the quality of impressions of many on this board nor do I doubt their ability to contribute positively to any civil war event. However, it is my opinion that this line of reasoning has the cart before the horse. We don't talk about reenacting infantry without a long arm (unless you've got a shovel in Missouri or other such place), artillery without their big guns, signal corp without flags, surgeons without saws (the list could go on), what would be the point. Portraying an artilleryman without a big gun is an infantryman waiting for a musket, portraying a surgeon without his saw is once again one too many officers, and portraying a cavalryman without a horse, well, no matter how great his kit is, his mind, motion, and spirit will not surely follow because they don't know how in the first place.
Two more cents,
---Ed

GBaylor

03-04-2004, 11:58 AM

Linda,

I think you're missing the point. As I've posted previously, there are instances where cavalrymen were without horses, but to soley base one's impression as a "dismounted cavalryman/dismounted mounted infantryman" is just plain farb. The intention of the folks on this board is to promote the highest quality cavalry in our area of the hobby. If someone "must" play dismounted cavalry, it wont be at events that I attend nor I suspect any of the campaigner types I "ride" with. Like Coley told me last night, "for every account you show me where cavalry were without their horses, I can show you a thousand where they had them".

Most Sincerely,
John Sweeney

AzTrooper

03-04-2004, 11:58 AM

A dismounted trooper would not look any different than a mounted trooper would when he was dismounted, reason being for every four troopers, three would dismount and link their mounts together and the fourth would remain mounted and would then be a horsehandler, he would then take the mounts to the rear while the dismounted troopers enguaged the enemy. I do both mounted and dismounted depending on the event.We have a event here in Arizona that requires no health certificates or coggins papers so I refuse to bring My horse and risk exposing him to harmfull equine diseases. I have noticed that at least here, the folks running events often have no idea what the function of cavalry is, and unfortuneately it is the case with a lot of the troopers. To do a dismounted impression right and accurately is not that difficult but it is imperative that You read and understand cavalry tactics, because as a dismounted trooper, you need to remember that your fourth man (you would have already counted off in fours)has removed the mounts to the rear while the now dismounted men would form a skirmish line or threaten the enemys infantry flank while your infantry confronts them. I know that this is a oversimplification of the job that the cavalry performed but it is a area that a person doing a dismounted impression can be both accurate and effective . As was said before there needs to be enough of you "doing it right" to pull this off and in my limited experience it helps if You can work with the mounted units and if possible work with them after they have dismounted. When I attend a event dismounted, I dont think of myself as a trooper without a mount, rather I am a trooper that has dismounted for a fight with my mount being held by a horsehandler. Just dont get caught up into fighting like infantry, your job if different as a trooper. Read up on mounted tactics and if possible find a unit that understands and practices dismounted tactics and listen and learn all You can.
A good dismounted impression can be done well and correctly, but You will need to read and understand cavalry tactics and commands, find others with a desire to do a correct dismounted impression and work together at it.It can be done right.
Respectfully, John Rogers

hireddutchcutthroat

03-04-2004, 12:49 PM

When I started in this hobby in 1989 the unit I joined was a dismounted cav unit. At the time I thought "wow this is great, all the cool cav doodads without the bother of a horse." After a few months being dismounted really started to grate on me. I couldnt do ANYTHING that I was reading about. My blanket, food, canteen etc, was on my horse...that didnt exist. I wanted to do be a campaigner well before I new what a campaigner was. I also found the impression very limiting as to which events I could do in part because I was cav, and my cap was covered in a very specific units hat brass. It was no mystery at this point that the best option from here on out was a generic infantry impression. Now some of my pards are trying to get me to do CS cav with them, and I have a whole new respect for the intense amout of work that goes into taking care of a horse. It is a lot of work not just with the animal, but there is a lot of nuances with the personal impressions that very different than an infantryman. So I geuss Ive gone full circle, from doing farby dismounted US cav to authentic mounted CS cav.

I can say with all earnesty;the nicest thing about being an infantryman is that I dont need to get up at 3 am to feed my knapsack.

AzTrooper

03-04-2004, 01:26 PM

I just reread the previous posts in this thread and I have to say that I missed many good points that I have never thought about.To truly experience even remotely the day to day life of a trooper,you would have to know what it is like to get up early and take care of your mount before seeing to yourself. Waking up stiff and sore and bending over to pick out their feet,feeding them and grooming them and cleaning up after them is crucial if You want to, as closely as possible portray a trooper. At the end of the day in the saddle and caring for your horse and then using your saddle as a pillow and maybe using the blanket for a added measure of warmth is a major part of the life of a trooper. I guess I was guilty of referring to doing a dismounted impression ( and I am sorry to use labels) at a more mainstream type event... as opposed to experiencing it in its entirety as many chose to do, not in front of a crowd of spectators.... but for the genuine experience. Now after rereading many of the posts here I can see where both sides are coming from. Living where I do in Arizona, the types of events here differ so much from the events in other parts of the country and finances keep Me from being able to travel out of state for events. It is My sincere hope to move to PA. in the future and after doing so I would like very much to attend some different types of events. I do have my own horse and I do know what it is like to care for him and feed him, in fact he comes first every day, it is part of owning a horse, but I have never really got the chance to experience a immersion event and one day I would sincerely like to. I have had the oppertunity so live off My saddle out of choice at a few events but there were not many of us doing it, and it was a great experience.
In closing my comments all I can see that there is defineately a couple of different mindsets here and that there is no way that one answer is going to settle this debate.Plain and simple as we all know, people are in this "hobby" for different reasons and everyones opinion of what they consider as fullfilling to them will differ as well. I still stand by what I said in My earlier post that at some events, people who decide to do a good impression of a trooper that has dismounted (after given the order the order to dismount has been given) can do a good job, but from a purely neutral standpoint, it appears to me that its propriority would depend entirely on the type of event that is being attended. I suppose the authenticity standards of the individual event and those attending it would have everything to do with weather a dismounted impression is appropriate or not.
Respectfully, John Rogers

courier

03-04-2004, 04:23 PM

CJSchumacher

03-04-2004, 04:46 PM

Chris Schumacher,
Sir,could you please be kind enough to site the vol. and year of the "Company of Military Historians", piece on Wilders Brigade.I am quite interested in any material on them,not to mention the usual quality of the scholarly works that appear in that journal.Where could one obtain a copy?
Regards,Richard Harris

Rich,

Here is the website to find out how to attain membership and copies of the company of military historians:

COMH (http://www.military-historians.org)

The color plate is No. 387: Wilder's Lightning Brigade, (Indiana Volunteer Cavalry)

Its been a while since I have read it and therefore don't remember the volume, but you can inquire through the website for further information. Its a great read complete with first person accounts of how they did things.

[Edit: Later edited with volume number 25, Issue 2 in 1973 graciously provided by the esteemed living historian extraordinaire...Mr. Ryan B. Weddle...thank you, thank you...Suhh.]

All,

I hope this issue is now somewhat more put to bed. Obviously, cavalry means horses and anything else is not "there" no matter how good the impression...sorry, but its the truth.

Two words...SPECIALTY IMPRESSION. Sure, there are rare instances and it happened from time to time, but dismounts are right up there with baloon corps, zouave, medical, vivandiere, etc.

Lets stick to PEC...that's hard enough as it is and neverending no matter what branch of the service!

Chris

GeraldTodd

03-05-2004, 08:39 AM

Actually, this thread brings up another point, what is historically documented to the particular time, location, and company/regiment being portrayed? ...

What is appropriate is what is appropriate, if the situation calls for cavalry without mounts, then the mounts get a weekend off. I'm sure there are a few folks that wouldn't do it because those folks won't get out of the saddle for anything - some refuse to even temporarily dismount and fight on foot - I believe there are few, if any, of that ilk amoung authentic cavalry (there's darn few authentic cavalry as it is!) that is just plain poor attitude.

You're also not talking about some carnival type farb fest but an event of some quality with enforced standards - portraying cavalry that happens to be dismounted in this situation is just part of the job for those that portray cavalry. If the unit being portrayed was known to not have any tentage during the paticular situation - folks would leave their tentage home - no difference.

RJSamp

03-10-2004, 06:16 PM

"What is appropriate is what is appropriate, if the situation calls for cavalry without mounts, then the mounts get a weekend off. "

Classic dismounted cavalry action July 2nd 1863, Battle of Gettysburg. East of town the 10th NY Cavalry rides up a couple of miles (yep, MOUNTED Coley), and dismounts in the woods and bottom of Cress Run. A dismounted squadron is sent up to the top of Brinkerhoff Ridge and they get up on this big plateau and skirmish with the Stonewall Brigade. A whopping 27 carbines are on the skirmish line, that's an 1863 cavalry squadron of two companies.

A 333 rifle Virginia Regiment comes up and sweeps the squadron off the plateay, like brushing crumbs off the dinner table. 2 killed, 6 wounded, no horses lost and the 10th NY Cavalry finally was rallied back at Cress Run. All played out.

A few more cavalry units ride up several miles at the trot, dismount down by the Cress Run, and march up to the ridge......

The morale of the story. This is a 5 mile long by 1 mile+ wide battlefield. The CSA infantry NEVER saw any horses other than artillery or cavalry officers. They didn't see them dismount, they didn't see them remount. The horses were never fired upon, nor did they play a part in the tactical aspects of the skirmish. You do this at a 1 mile by 1 mile battlefield....and you can't even portray the formation of the infantry, let alone the dismounting of the cavalry.

Their is a time and a place for many different aspects of the hobby.......

and horseless dismounted troopers, as Gerry has pointed out, have MANY appropriate times and places to faithfully portray ACW troopers.

How about the Battle of Westport, where over 90% of the soldiers were cavalry, and over 90% of the fighting was dismounted. Again the distances involved are often so great (2+ miles of walking to the front, with large bluffs or hills between you and the enemie's LOS) that there is no need to inaccurately portray the dismounting of horses within rifle range of the enemy. When you need cavalry to be mounted, like McGhee's Charge down the Wornall Road (near the Loose Park Duck Pond) then you mount 40 troopers and engage in a pistol fight (not sabers)....

but the other 10,000 cavalry troopers are dismounted, and the horses are WAY off to the rear, out of LOS.

A farb's a farb......and a progressive or a mainstreamer or a campaigner aren't farb's. I've seen plenty of MOUNTED, superb riding, excellent horsemastership, cavalry, FARBS in my day..... Doesn't take more than 50 pounds of cooking equipment and a fly set out on a company street or a plastic cooler in plain sight to make me wretch.....

Horses are expensive, time consuming, can be dangerous, and can wreck a marriage..... None of us will EVER be authentic. Some will be more than others....way more. But just because someone decides to become a trooper without a horse doesn't make them a farb.... too many documented episodes of cavalry troopers fighting as cavalry, with carbines, dismounted to keep trashin' 'em. Like the 3rd Indiana Cavalry troopers who joined up with the Iron Brigade on July 1st, 1863....

Still waiting to see that dismounted impression because your horse was just DESTROYED under neath you.....think about that one.... 1.5 million horses died in the war (and I dont' think that number includes mules....).....how's your authenticity?

Get past the gear already....

RJ Samp
time to bring my sister's string of overo paints to the next reenactment.....that'll wake 'em up...

Dear Mr. Samp. While your posts concerning the CW bugle reflect your serious interest and research in the subject, some of your posts skate back and forth across the line between the pursuit of authenticty and militant farbism (and I will not mention your postings on other fora that read as critical and condescending of the "authentic campaigner" movement.)

While any "impression," including so-called "specialty" impressions like Zouaves or Sharpshooters, can be done as "authentically" or as "farbily" as any U.S. or C.S. line infantryman- the overall issue with "dismounted troops" is similar to Zouaves and Berdan Sharpshooters.
Meaning, that across the general CW hobby, they tend to be done poorly without much regard for uniform, gear, activities, or even whether they were at a particular battle or not. (And even when "authentically potrayed," event commanders often lack the historical knowledge and experience to use them in their actual, documented, historical roles.)
While there may be exceptions out there, the "state of the art" across the CW Hobby, of "dismounted cavalry," is dismally poor when it comes to uniform, gear, activities, and any semblance or resemblance to historical CW cavalry tactics or the Manual.
My hat is off to any and all who do do it "historically correct" and to "authentic campaigner" standards.

The danger for anyone to espouse a mantra that some people use, of "We cannot be 100% authentic!," borders and crosses the line of Militant Farbism because when everything is possible, nothing is possible.
I have read, and heard, this used as a justification not for the "Journey toward," or the quest to achieve the perhaps 90-some percent that is achievable or doable under some circumstances- but rather the excuse for engaging in a hobby that is perhaps only 10-12-30 percent (based upon one's chosen, and valid for them, Mental Picture).

While that may not be your intent, your wording and expression sends that message.

Please continue to post your fine bugle related posts, but please post your well thought out historical arguments without the seeming Militant Farb type comments.
If that was indeed your intention, please consider this a friendly warning to please post them on other fora where they more closely match their philosphy and standards, and consider what you post on the AC Forum.

Thank you for your cooperation and assistance.

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt