Rear Rank One in Stacking Arms

[huntdaw]

So am I missing something? I read the manuals and it seems they say that the only guy who puts the rear rank #1's musket on the stack is that man and he is the only one that takes it off. Isn't that what they say? He reaches through and leans it on the stack. At the order to Take Arms, he reaches through and removes his weapon from the stack.

Now if that is so, how come I keep going to authentic events and keep having folks argue with me that the front rank #2 reaches back, takes it and stacks it for him and then hands it to him when breaking the stack? Isn't that less efficient? Doesn't that make it take more time to make or break the stack? Is it not written that way in any of the manuals? Has anyone read the manuals?

I'm not being facetious here. It happens so much - just the other day at Pickett's Mill for instance - that I am beginning to doubt my ability to comprehend what I'm reading. Please tell me if I am wrong and I will apologize and never say another word about it. But, if I'm right, I want to know so I can continue the crusade to get folks to do this simple thing correctly.

I also would suggest that every event has a stacking drill prior to going live. It will make things go much easier and help those that are not usually in that front rank 2 slot know what their role is.

And don't get me started on the proper way to challenge while on guard and what the parole is really for. But that's another thread.

[lambrew]

Hardee's states that the odd number rear rank man places his own rifle on the stack, he also takes it off. So if I read it right, your right.

Respectfully....
Sean Collicott

[justthemiller]

It is true that the "rear rank #1" is the only person to touch his musket whether it be placing it in the stack or taking it from the stack. Also, it is the same be it Casey's, Gilhams, or Hardee's Revised. Those that state otherwise are not reading the manuals properly. In Casey's manual it is on page 95 starting w/paragraph 423. In Gilhams it is on page 145 staring w/paragraph 222 and unfortunately I've seemed to have misplaced my copy of Hardee's Revised but it is the same I assure you. Take care.

[BrianHicks]

Mr. Comer,

You are correct on the proper manner in which the stack arms is supposed to take place. And yes... this continues to persist as a problem were others want to handle the rear rank #1's weapon.

Another continuing problem is when the Sgts place and retrieve their weapons from the stacks. As I recall, although not specifically stated in the Drill Manuals, Katz tels us that the Sgts place their weapons on the stack after the command to break ranks is given, and they retrieve their weapons prior to the ranks being called back to attention in the ranks. (and yes.... I know, Kautz wasn't published during first few years of the war, but what he did publish was a compilation of the practices that had been used during the war.)

[pvt_jb]

This is another area of School of the Soldier that is so simple but yet has become so messed up. I get tired of going to events and having to be that guy in the ranks that wants to correct everything. At times I just cringe and keep my mouth closed which is becoming harder to do.

Personally, I believe it is a hold over from groups that did that crazy reenactor "Kentucky" swing. Which I have never found in any drill manual even in a Kentucky militia drill manual. At least not as I have always seen it done. I guess it is a step forward that that version is slipping away and that some versions of the "poke through" method have taken hold.

But is it too much to ask that everyone at least read School of the Soldier once (and I mean actually read it not just look at the commands). By doing that it would solve so much of this stuff.

Now you have gone and stirred me up!!:D

[KCLoewe]

Jeremy,
I think you hit the nail on the head. I have never read anywhere of anyone but the odd file of the rear rank touching his musket. My onloy guess is it's from the "kentucky swing" mantality. I think you are asking too much that everyone read the manual they or their unit uses! This is really simple stuff, but then again so is everyone stepping off at the same time!

[Rob Murray]

I also would suggest that every event has a stacking drill prior to going live. It will make things go much easier and help those that are not usually in that front rank 2 slot know what their role is.
Micheal, Nice thought. Sometimes it works. Sometimes it don't. A while back, I was at an event where most of the company was clueless on how to stack arms. After watching and along with the other NCOs attempting to help them get it right, I finally went to the Capt. and said "Sir, don't make 'em stack arms in the dark, coz it aint gonna happen". He stood there in utter disbelief, I said "sorry Sir", saluted and took my place in the ranks. Needless to say we didn't stack in the dark.

[john duffer]

Brian

I believe it's actually SCOTT's TACTICS that mentions about sergeants staking.

[trippcor]

Mr. Comer,
Good thread and one of my pet peavs as well. It drives me nuts when this is done wrong.

[Silas]

Since the subject is stacking arms, I keep seeing Federal units which know perform the Scott/Gilham/Casey stack very well. However, when they unstack arms, they lean the stack forward to free the rear rank two's musket. Essentially, they reverse or undo the movements which they peformed to create the stack.

When I show them how to unstack by lifting all three weapons together to unlock them, they think I'm nuts. I may actually be nuts, but these manuals are pretty clear about lifting all three weapons in unison instead of leaning the front rank weapons forward and removing the third.

As part of my written plans for the AoT battalion which were sent to the company commanders a week ago, I included this particular language :

- Stacking Arms / Breaking Ranks

For some reason this seems to be one of the toughest things relative to drill in all of reenacting. The only method to be used is the "swing" method found in Hardee's Revised. Each man in the battalion shall be able to stack properly. Practice stacking in the dark on Friday night if necessary, but it must be done correctly by daybreak Saturday morning.

Stacking is extremely important. It gives the men an opportunity to rest. Whenever the battalion stops and it appears we will have a break for more than five minutes, we will stack arms and break ranks. To maximize periods of rest, the men must be able to stack, break ranks, reform and unstack without confusion.
Stacking matters.

[LibertyHallVols]

Personally, I believe it is a hold over from groups that did that crazy reenactor "Kentucky" swing. Which I have never found in any drill manual even in a Kentucky militia drill manual. At least not as I have always seen it done.

For clarity's sake, I don't know where the term "Kentucky Swing" came from (perhaps its a dance?), but the method of stacking arms DOES, in fact, exist!

From Hardee's 1862 edition:

Stack arms

The men being at order arms, the instructor will command:

410. At this command, number two of the front rank will pass his piece before him, seize it with the left hand about the middle band; slope it across the body, barrel to the rear, the butt three inches above the right toe of the man on his left, muzzle six inches to the right of his right shoulder.

411. Number two of the rear rank will turn his piece, lock square to the front, and pass it to his front rank man, who will seize it with his right hand about the middle band and incline it forward, resting the neck of the bayonet on that of his own bayonet and close to the blade. Number one of the front rank will turn the barrel of his piece square to the front, slope it across the body, place the neck of his bayonet, above the necks, and between the blades of the other two bayonets, holding the piece with the right hand at the middle band, the butt three inches form the ground at his right toe.

412. Number two of the front rank will throw the butt of the rear rank man's piece about thirty inches to the front, at the same time resting the butt of his own piece on the ground on the left, and a little in rear of his left toe. At the same instant, number one of the front rank will rest the butt of his piece on the ground, a little on front of his right toe. Number one of the rear rank will incline his piece on the stack thus formed. (bold print mine for emphasis in the topic of this thread)

[john duffer]

The "swing' was bundled with 1855 Hardee's in some cases to give a method for staking three banders and I believe "Kentucky Swing" came into reenactor use because it was included with a Kentucky Militia manual. It's my belief that Hardee either borrowed this from Ellsworth or both borrowed it from another source. Notice that Hardee generally uses "even number / odd number" except for the staking section where it's "number one / two". Upton switches from the Scott/Casey stack to the Ellsworth/Hardee stack postwar.

[Stonewall_Greyfox]

To follow up on John's post with the excerpt from Hardee's Manual (1862); the following is the excerpt from Gilham's Manual for the Militia.

To Stack Arms.

222. The men being at order arms, the instructor will command:

Stack - ARMS.

At this command, the front rank man of every even numbered file will pass his piece before him, seizing it with the left hand above he middle band, and place the butt behind and near the right foot of the man next on the left, the barrel turned to the front. At the same time the front rank man of every odd numbered file will pass his piece before him, seizing it with the left hand below the middle band, and hand it to the man next on the left; the latter will receive it with the right hand two inches above the middle band, throw the butt about thirty-two inches to the front, opposite to his right shoulder, incline the muzzle towards him, and lock the shanks of he two bayonets; the lock of this second piece towards the right, and its shank above that of the first piece. The rear rank man of every even file will project his bayonet forward, and introduce it (using both hands) between and under the shanks of the two other bayonets. He will then abandon the piece to his file leader, who will receive it with the right hand under the middle band, bring the butt to the front, holding up his own piece and the stack with the left hand, and place the butt of this third piece between the feet of the man next on the right, the S plate to the rear. The stack thus formed, the rear rank man of every odd file will pass his piece into his left hand, the barrel turned to the front, and, sloping the bayonet forward, rest it on the stack.

223. If the company be armed with rifles, or any piece without the bayonet, arms will be stacked by the same commands, and in the following manner: At the command stack arms, the front rank man of every even numbered file will pass his piece before him, seizing it with the left hand near the upper band; will place the butt a little in advance of his left toe, the barrel turned towards the body, and draw the rammer slightly from its place; the front rank man of every odd numbered file will also draw the rammer slightly, and pass his piece to the man next on his left, who will seize it with the right hand near the upper band, and place the butt a little in advance of the right toe of the man next on his right, the barrel turned to the front; he will then cross the rammers of the two pieces, the rammer of the piece of the odd numbered man being inside; the rear rank man of every even file will also draw his rammer, lean his piece forward, the lock-plate downwards, advance the right foot about six inches, and insert the rammer between the rammer and barrel of the piece of his front rank man; with his left hand he will place the butt of his piece on the ground, thirty-two inches in rear of, and perpendicular to, the front rank, bringing back his right foot by the side of the left; the front rank man of every even file will at the same time lean the stack to the rear, quit it with his right hand, and force all the rammers down. The stack being thus formed, the rear rank man of every odd file will pass his piece into his left hand, the barrel to the front, and inclining it forward, will rest it on the stack.


Bold Text modern addition for emphasis on the procedure centered as the topic for this thread.

Note: As commented by the original poster (Mr. Comer), the manual clearly states, that the rear man maintains control of his weapon during the entire process.

Paul B.

[Joe Walker]

In 1983 myself, along with a few pards read aloud from the Kentucky State Militia manual how to stack the so-called "Ky stack" and performed same. It seamed to spread from there. In 1992 I was given a copy of an 1861 version of Goetzel's Hardees. Interesting enough, it didn't have the "swing" stacking in it. However, the Lieut that owned the maunual struck through the old stacking article and in it's place he inserted his own hand-written instructions for the so called KY stack.

I have seen the Ky manual and it is in there- plus, it was added to Goetzel's Hardees not in the first version.

Joe Walker
Waco Guards

[deovindice11]

Most of the guys in my unit have enough trouble marching in time, let alone stacking correctly ha ha

[AZReenactor]

Dustin,
That is a real shame. The good news is though that a little diligence at drill and you all can fix that shortcoming right quick.

[paulcalloway]

Caseys states it as follows:

The stack thus formed, the rear-rank man of every odd file will pass his piece into his left hand, the barrel turned to the front and sloping the bayonet forward, rest it on the stack.


It's pretty clear from that text that the only one touching that rifle should the rear rank one.

...

We also had a stacking dispute in our company as well on whether the front rank two shifts his left hand from his own rifle to the front rank one's rifle to steady the stack.

The manual is clear that the front rank one never quits his piece with his left hand but instead receives the front one's rifle with his right hand, plants it 32" out (with his right hand) and leaves his right hand on that same rifle while the rear two inserts his rifle into the stack. --- basically under and through the armpit of the front two.


At the command stack arms, the front-rank man of every even-numbered tile will pass his piece before him, seizing it with the left hand above the middle band, and place the butt behind and near the right foot of the man next on the left) the barrel turned to the front. At the same time the front-rank man of every odd-numbered file will pass his piece before him, seizing it with the left hand below the middle band, and hand it to the man next on the left; the latter will receive it with the right hand two inches above the middle band, throw the butt about thirty-two inches to the front, opposite to his right shoulder, inclining the muzzle toward him, and lock the shanks of the two bayonets: the lock of this second piece toward the right, and its shank above that of the first piece. The rear-rank man of every even file will project his bayonet forward, and introduce it (using both hands) between and under the shanks of the two other bayonets. He will then abandon the piece to his file leader, who will receive it with the right hand under the middle band, bring the butt to the front, holding up his own piece and the stack with the left hand, and place the butt of this third piece between the feet of the man next on the right, the S plate to the rear.

[BrianHicks]

Brian

I believe it's actually SCOTT's TACTICS that mentions about sergeants staking.

Ahh... there you have it.

Thank you Sir!

[pvt_jb]

For clarity's sake, I don't know where the term "Kentucky Swing" came from (perhaps its a dance?), but the method of stacking arms DOES, in fact, exist!

From Hardee's 1862 edition:
John,

I realize that there is a "swing" type version of stacking arms and after reading my post I do appreciate you clarifying it for me.

The point I was making going for is what is practiced as the KY swing is not what is written in the various manuals that use a "swing" type stack such as the example you posted. This includes at least one KY Militia manual that I have seen. One part that is practiced incorrectly, as I so often see it, besides what has been mentioned already is moving on the preparatory command for both stacking and unstacking.

[JBuschlen]

Hardee's pre-1862 edition No. 413 and Casey's No. 428 make it clear that no movement occurs until the command of execution. Presently, I do not have access to the 1862 edition of Hardees with the swing, does this method follow suit with the afore mentioned?

Humbly,
Jeremy Buschlen

[markj]

A peripherally interesting item about the "Wolfe" or "Smith" method of stacking arms is attached below. No specifics, but while Ellsworth claims to have independently invented this method c.1855, it appears to have been in use for some years before Ellsworth appeared on the scene.

Scroll down about 3/4 in the 17 July 1860 NY Times article to see this item. I have also attached some interesting items about "General Persifer F. Smith" (1798-1858), who allegedly invented the aforementioned method of stacking arms.

Yours, &c.,

Mark Jaeger

[John McPherson]

Silas offers an interesting and compelling rationale to support his interpretation of the taking of arms from the stack. I, too, am familiar with the method described by Casey in his Infantry Tactics. I think that the question posed by some and discussed by Silas has more to do with the interpretation of the word "raise" in the following instruction:

"these two men will raise up the stack to loosen the rammers, or shanks of the bayonets. "

Silas interprets the word raise as the physical lifting of the pieces from the ground. In this point, I differ. My experience with the taking of arms from a stack has led me and others familiar with this method to interpret the word raise not as a lifting of pieces from the ground but instead a tilting of the pieces of the front rank men from an angled posture to that of a vertical position. The butts of the pieces never leave the ground; in addition no man has to step out of position to facilitate the disengagement of the pieces. If all of the weapons utilize the same bayonet type and all of the men in the stacking file understand and are fully competent in the stacking procedure, the entire process moves quite efficiently and w/o hassle.

Thoughts, clarifications? Great posts by everyone!

John McPherson
Snohomish, WA

[LibertyHallVols]

Silas interprets the word raise as the physical lifting of the pieces from the ground. In this point, I differ. My experience with the taking of arms from a stack has led me and others familiar with this method to interpret the word raise not as a lifting of pieces from the ground but instead a tilting of the pieces of the front rank men from an angled posture to that of a vertical position.

John,

A couple of points to think about in your argument:

1) Hardee's manual instructs the "stacker" in 410 to hold the piece three inches above the right toe, as follows:
410. At this command, number two of the front rank will pass his piece before him, seize it with the left hand about the middle band; slope it across the body, barrel to the rear, the butt three inches above the right toe of the man on his left, muzzle six inches to the right of his right shoulder.
Therefore, would it not make sense to return the pieces to their position "above the ground" in order to break the stack?

2) It is not necessary to move one's feet in order pick up the stack. The stack is made with one's feet in-place and can be broken the same way.

Interesting thoughts, though. I will be interested to play with this a bit at my next event. Ultimately, like the great "Right Oblique Debate" (or was it left?), these things are best answered by trying it while reading the manual, rather than reading the manual and trying to imagine it. :wink_smil

[Strawfoot]

I think a greater concern should be assuring that the front rank number 2 man does not try to control the stack by holding his and the front rank 1's rifle simultaneously at the base of the bayonets.

As an NCO, I've stepped in on several occassions to prevent guys from getting their left hands skewered by the rear rank number 2's bayonet.

It's refreshing to see an actual discussion about drill authenticity, rather than gear type, or the material make-up and construction of some shell jacket. I've often lamented that even the greenest, rookie regiments of the WBTS could drill rings around any of us. This is not just due to our lack of cohesion and practice, but study in the manuals as well.

At fifty feet, even the farbiest looking set of clowns who can drill their asses off will make an authentically dressed, yet cluelessly drilled re-enactor company look bad.


Mike Phineas
Arlington, TX

[Silas]

John McP, go to the explanation in Baxter's which is a more complete statement of the movements of the Scott/Casey/Gilham method of taking or unstacking arms. Here's the link : http://books.google.com/books?id=nK_aJx-jkjMC&pg=PA75&vq=stack&source=gbs_search_r&cad=1_1#PPA75,M1

Baxter is an under reviewed source for fleshing out and supplementing details found in other comparable schools of the soldier. The illustrations are superb.

[Silas]

Here's a little explanation with a side by side comparison to Baxter and Casey. First, I note the full text of each concerning the manner of taking arms.

Baxter :

TAKE ARMS.
At this command the front rank man of every odd file will remove his piece from the stack — the front rank man of every even file will seize his own piece with his left hand, and that of the man on his right with his right hand, both below the middle bands. The rear rank man of every even file will advance the hollow of his right foot towards the right heel of his file leader, and with his right hand seize his own piece below the middle band— both men will raise the stack, close together, turn the knuckles in, which movement unlocks the bayonets readily — the front rank man will pass the piece in his right hand over to the man on his right, and all taking the position of ordered arms.

Casey :

TO RESUME ARMS.
427. Both ranks being re-formed in rear of their stacks, the instructor will command :
Take — ARMS.
428. At this command, the rear-rank man of every odd-numbered file will withdraw his piece from the stack ; the front-rank man of every even file will seize his own piece with the left hand and that of the man on his right with his right hand, both above the lower band ; the rear-rank man of the even file will seize his piece with the right hand below the lower band (if the rifle musket be used the piece will be seized at the middle band) ; these two men will raise up the stack to loosen the rammers, or shanks of the bayonets. The front-rank man of every odd file will facilitate the disengagement of the rammers, if necessary, by drawing them out slightly with the left hand, and will receive his piece from the hand of the man next on his left ; the four men will retake the position of the soldier at order arms.

Now, here is a phrase by phrase examination of each :

B : TAKE ARMS.
C : Take — ARMS.

B : At this command the front rank man of every odd file will remove his piece from the stack —
C : At this command, the rear-rank man of every odd-numbered file will withdraw his piece from the stack ;
The line about the front rank man in Baxter is an error in the original text. The last man placing his musket on the stack was the rear rank man of the odd file. Subsequent lines will show that the front rank even man's musket is still in the stack after the first musket has been removed.

B : the front rank man of every even file will seize his own piece with his left hand
C : the front-rank man of every even file will seize his own piece with the left hand
There's the front rank even man seizing his musket that supposedly had already left Baxter's stack. Obvious error in the text.

B : and that of the man on his right with his right hand, both below the middle bands
C : and that of the man on his right with his right hand, both above the lower band
The difference in text still causes the hand to land in the same place. This is a difference without a distinction. I call this, The Hug. The only way the front rank even man can seize the two muskets without inserting his hand inside the stack, which is going be closed like an umbrella, is to reach around the stack and give it a big hug.

B : The rear rank man of every even file
C : the rear-rank man of the even file

B : will advance the hollow of his right foot towards the right heel of his file leader,
C : [nothing]
Baxter provides some extra text that helps explain the movement.

B : and with his right hand seize his own piece below the middle band
C : will seize his piece with the right hand [at the middle band]
Baxter and Casey phrase this line differently, but pretty much say the same thing. I added "at the middle band" as this is the instruction from his manual about what is done if the rifle musket be used. If it's the shorter rifle, the text has the man seizing the piece "below the lower band."

B : both men will raise the stack close together,
C : these two men will raise up the stack [nothing]
"Both men" or "these two men" means the front and rear rank even men. The "close together" language cannot mean that the stack is leaned to the left oblique of the front rank even man. I read the phrase, "raise the stack close together" to mean that the men of the even file lift and while so doing, they bring their hands together which causes it to close like an umbrella.

B : turn the knuckles in, which movement unlocks the bayonets readily
C : [nothing]
This is the big difference. The turning of the knuckles causes the bayonets to unlock almost like a miracle.

B : [nothing]
C : to loosen the [ ] shanks of the bayonets.
In Casey, I remove the word, "rammers" as this pertains to the short rifle, not the longer musket. This phrase and the previous one from Baxter really belong together, but it makes the differences easier to see if separated. Both phrases concern the same thing : loosening the shanks.

B : the front rank man
C : The front-rank man of every odd file
Same meaning. Baxter is more concise.

B : [nothing]
C : will facilitate the disengagement of the rammers, if necessary, by drawing them out slightly with the left hand,
This text concerns the short rifle, not the longer musket, and does not apply to the discussion.

B : will pass the piece in his right hand over to the man on his right,
C : will receive his piece from the hand of the man next on his left
Once again, the meaning is the same.

B : and all taking the position of ordered arms.
C : the four men will retake the position of the soldier at order arms.
Again, same meaning with Baxter being more concise.

In conclusion, I don't agree that the stack should be leaned to remove the the rear rank two's musket. The entire stack should be raised off the ground and closed while it is being raised. Had Casey included the turning movement of the knuckles - or better yet, had he gone to the more advanced "swing" method - there wouldn't be this discussion.

The downside of doing the raise, close and turn movements is that The Hug must occur first. We all know that guys at reenactments aren't big on giving hugs while in the ranks. People might talk ....

[Benedict]

What about the videos on this page? http://www.122ndnewyork.com/manual/stack.html

Our group drills according to Casey, but with the exception of stack arms - that is still the "Kentucky Swing" . . . But I hope that will be changed the next time we meet!

[Bill]

This would probably be considered a farbism; but my unit has modified the instructions for breaking the stack slightly. Like most units, we have a mix of Enfields, Springfields, reproduction and original bayonets. We found, that unless everyone was very careful, the stocks on the Springfields, above the upper band, were getting damaged by the screws on the Enfield upper band.

We lift the stack slightly to release the bayonets, but the #2 Rear Rank Man reaches forward and slides his weapon out of the stack, almost the opposite the way it was put in the stack. Each man handles his own weapon.

This method is very quick and has eliminated the stock damage.

[John McPherson]

Silas's clarification of the Take-ARMS! procedure with the line by line comparison of Casey's version with that of Baxter's version encourages me to reassess how I've interpreted the procedure. Casey's description did not describe the specific hand movement while Baxter's went the next step. FYI Silas, Lawrence, Josh, & I will work this new/old interpretation out next weekend as we get ready for the At High Tide as the "Lost Towney Mess." We'll see you across the field; we'll be with Sykes's Regulars.

Thanks for taking the time to post your details!

John McPherson
Snohomish, WA

[flattop32355]

We also had a stacking dispute in our company as well on whether the front rank two shifts his left hand from his own rifle to the front rank one's rifle to steady the stack.

We were also ordered that, if we were the rear rank one, that our leaner should be placed in a near vertical position, with the butt tucked into the stack, rather than angled out, as are the other three rifle muskets.

At no point in this discussion, or in reading the manuals, do I see a justification for this practice.

However, at the event, we were asked not to question/comment on/challenge the orders of our officers, and such request was complied with by all in our company.