Loading While Lying

[Federal Bummer]

Several times in the field (events) I have noticed that when loading on the ground, soldiers (Living historians) cross their feet to position the musket. Neither article 310 in Caseys or article 301 in Hardees or even Gilhams make reference to this. They only say to place the butt of the peice between the feet. I'm looking for where this practice (manual and article) came from. Any help on a reference would be helpful.

[LibertyHallVols]

Steve,

I've never heard of crossing one's feet while loading from the prone position. Here is a pic of me loading prone at Vicksburg last year:
http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=5389&d=1182274390

It isn't a huge pic, but you can see my feet are not crossed. I'm sure my form isn't drill-manual-perfect, but I didn't cross my feet and it worked just fine.

Does that answer your question, or at least help???

[Canebrake Rifle Guards]

I don't know how the manual reads, but I was always taught to hold the heels together, toes splayed out (like the position of attention but lying on your back). Lay the butt of the gun in the fork formed by your feet and thereby controlling it. Just like John's photograph except I remember the gun positioned so that the barrel was facing the ground, the balance of the gun makes it easier that way.

Greg Starbuck

[Federal Bummer]

Greg

I was taught the same, but with the barrel up. Yet I have seen this done with the feet crossed many time at events of all levels. Just wandering if I was missing something in Casey's (been through it all and haven't seen it, but have been known to be blind in the past) OR it came from one of the militia manuals.

[flattop32355]

Just like John's photograph except I remember the gun positioned so that the barrel was facing the ground, the balance of the gun makes it easier that way.

It is easier to control in the prone positon with the barrel down, as the weapon doesn't want to roll as it does with barrel up. However, with the barrel down, one is more likely to move the hand over the muzzle to get at the rammer, so there is a safety factor.

The opposite is true when loading kneeling.

It would seem the general rule of thumb is "rammer closer to the body than the barrel" in all cases, standing, kneeling, or prone.

The other aspect is to turn on one's side to draw cartridge and to prime.

I'd be willing to take a wild guess and say that leg crossing was probably done in the war by some, though it wasn't prescribed.

[Micah Trent]

I too cannot find such reference to the crossing of feet. I know we practiced it in drill at Pickett's Mill. I am wandering though if it is possibly more of a post war practice more then anything, not ruling out the use of it during the Civil War. :confused:

[Pat.Lewis]

Well, putting manuals aside (as was so often done by veteran troops), I offer some evidence from the field. Here at Chickamauga Lt. Isaac Royse, 115th IL remarked about his unit's haphazard loading procedures defending Snodgrass Hill.

The men loaded and fired at will. Each man handled his gun, in his own way, getting in as many and effective shots as possible. Sometimes the whole line lay close to the ground, loading and firing without rising, in this way doing very destructive work without being exposed to the shower of bullets passing overhead. At other times, the men would step back a few paces from the crest, load their pieces, and then step briskly forward till a good aim would be secured, fire, and as quickly repeat the operation.

Now, that might not speak to a crossed/not crossed feet issue, but what it tells me is that here was a Lt. who wasn't so much concerned for what his men had been taught nor was he correcting their loading and firing procedure while things were going down. Crossed feet, uncrossed, standing behind the crest, lying down, it didn't seem to matter to Lt. Royce so long as his men were putting fire down that hill. Drill manuals are guidelines, not commandments, especially to veteran troops who need to innovate. If everyone did things by the book and never deviated, we would still be using the same book the Romans used.

[Duff]

I agree with Pat.
This may be something that was done but troops thought that it was unimportant and did not see any reason to mention it. I mean, when your describing a battle, I'm sure there are bigger things going on than how you have positioned your feet. Previous to this thread, I have never even thought of it before. I honestly don't know if I do it or not, I never thought to look, and never thought it was important.

I don't see why it wouldn't have been done, though. It stabilizes the weapon and makes it easier to load. If the weapon is easier to load, you shoot faster, and loading speed was paramount to CW era tactics. This in turn will lead to decreased emphasis on weapon safety.

[shubal]

I don't see why it wouldn't have been done, though. It stabilizes the weapon and makes it easier to load. If the weapon is easier to load, you shoot faster, and loading speed was paramount to CW era tactics. This in turn will lead to decreased emphasis on weapon safety.

And the drill manual way doesn't do this??
These things were written down for a reason and with some thought.
Now whether the officers and nco's enforced things is another matter.

[paul9thky]

Steve,

I've never heard of crossing one's feet while loading from the prone position. Here is a pic of me loading prone at Vicksburg last year:
http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=5389&d=1182274390

It isn't a huge pic, but you can see my feet are not crossed. I'm sure my form isn't drill-manual-perfect, but I didn't cross my feet and it worked just fine.

Does that answer your question, or at least help???

Not to be a smart ass, but if you're the person in the pick I think you are, you're accually loading the supine position (on you're back). prone is on your belly.
:)

Just nit picking for fun.

[CYoungJSU]

All,

I must concur with my good friend Patrick on this one. I do not believe it matters "how" the weapon was loaded. The soldiers main concern was self preservation and the officers' concerns were for the preservation of their commands. How the soldiers went about bringing fire down on the enemy and the loading procedures from the "prone" position is kind of a moot point. Manuals are all well and good, but historians must look at the primary evidence when available, thus making conclusions based on "real life" experiences and not what Hardee, Casey, Gilham, or others wrote for the drill field.

In 1913, Oscar P. Heath, a former member of Battery I, 4th United States Artillery, wrote a personal account of the Battle entitled "The Battle of Chickamauga: As I Saw It."

Heath states, ...wavering under the awful slaughter in their rank they halted, and, delivering a deadly volley into our ranks, they threw themselves at full length on the ground, and lying on their backs so as to expose themselves as little as possible they loaded their muskets, then turning over and resting on one knee they delivered their fire, then threw themselves on their backs to load as before. Our infantry followed their example and for the next half hour an almost muzzle to muzzle (we were about fifty yards apart) musketry fire was maintained (5).

Although Heath did not mention how the soldiers loaded when they "threw themselves on their backs to load," I believe the question should be centered around why they fought in this manner...

[Federal Bummer]

My concern with this thread was not what was done in combat. I'm one of the the first to say when sh$t completely hits the fan, to hell with the manual do what works best. My question was, is there any manual which actually prescibes this action?

[John McPherson]

Casey's Infantry Tactics describe the motion of "Fire and Load Lying" at the following link: http://www.usregulars.com/css0.html
under Title II; Lesson IV.

I've pasted the text below:

FIRE AND LOAD LYING.


309. At this command, the man on the right of the, squad will move forward three paces and halt; he will then bring his piece to an order, drop on both knees, and place himself on the ground flat on his belly. In this position he will support the piece -nearly horizontal with the left hand, holding it near the lower band, the butt end of the piece and the left elbow resting on the ground, the barrel uppermost; cock the piece with the right hand, and carry this hand to the small of the stock; raise the piece with both hands, press the butt against the shoulder, and, resting on both elbows, aim and fire.
310. As soon as he has fired, bring the piece down and turn upon his left side, still resting on his left elbow; bring back the piece until the cock is opposite his breast, the butt end resting on the ground; take out a cartridge with the right hand; seize the small of the stock with this hand, holding the cartridge with the thumb and two first fingers; he will then throw himself on his back, still holding the piece with both hands carry the piece to the rear, place the butt between the heels, the barrel up, the muzzle elevated. In this position, charge cartridge, draw rammer, ram cartridge, and return rammer.
311. When finished loading, the man will turn again upon his left side, remove the old cap and prime, then raise the piece vertically, rise, turn about, and resume his position in the ranks.
312. The second man will be taught what has just been prescribed for the first, and so on throughout the squad.

From what I gather, the legs are not crossed. The weapon is held between the heels during the charging/ramming procedure with the barrel facing the sky while the rifleman is in the supine position.

John McPherson
Snohomish, WA

[cap tassel]

Drill manuals are guidelines, not commandments, especially to veteran troops who need to innovate. If everyone did things by the book and never deviated, we would still be using the same book the Romans used.I agree, and it reminds me of the scolding guys get when they try to use some cover while during skirmish drill. Oh my gosh they're not keeping the lines straight.

[Rob]

Tell the "scolders" that keeping the lines straight is of secondary importance.

29. Skirmishers should be particularly instructed to take advantage of any cover which the ground may offer, and should lie flat on the ground whenever such a movement is necessary to protect them from the fire of the enemy. Regularity in the alignment should yield to this important advantage.

[Guy Gane III]

I agree with Patrick, on this. (Great reference, too!)

Let's all agree that 90% of the times that we kick rocks to an event, that we don't drill with the same people, same company commanders, same levels of knowledge in the applicable fields, etc., thus making it very difficult to get everyone on the same page at events. I tried it for 4 years as a company commander and you never get the exact same people to drill with; there are always new recruits, old comrads, other units, (fill in the reason), that tweak your experience each time out.

Now, I know there will be those out there, who will attest to their case being different. That's fine and that's right. We live lives outside of the Hobby - the Soldiers, lived a life confined within their position in the Army/Navy of 1861-1865.

I absolutely believe that in the heat of the moment, unless you have nerves of steel, you won't be focusing on what the hell a bunch of booklearning, math dandies made up for you to fight.

Am I wrong? :sarcastic

[Bob 125th NYSVI]

The idea of the (all) manual method was that by repetion in training will have the soldier doing it unconciously when asked to do it. Also what was illustrated in the manual was not so much as the 'one best way' to do things (it there was 'one best way' there would have been only one manual never updated) as the way that the military felt that it got the results it wanted from the activity.

I doubt very much in the middle of a battle when lives were on the line an offcier was going to worry too much about how his men were doing it as long as they were accomplishing what he needed done (in this case through enough lead at us Yankees to keep us beyond bayonet distance).

He might note mistakes and deal with it at the next drill opportunity.

However if the guy crossing his feet was also throwing out the most lead a good combat officer is also going to 're-write' the manual.

So train them how it says in the manual and only worry about the individual methods if it adversely affects performance.