Flash boom thump?

[Hank Trent]

Got to puzzling about this while watching the artillery fire at AHT.

Let's say a typical artillery piece is firing shells at a typical distance. You're approximately where the shell would land. What happens in what order?

Do you see the muzzle flash, hear the boom of the firing, and then the explosion of the shell? Or some other order?

I was "shelled" with ground charges at a battle last year, which they detonated a second after I heard the boom, so I still found myself bracing after hearing the boom of enemy artillery, waiting for the "shell" to hit nearby.

But then I wondered, due to the speed of sound and the velocity of a projectile, if that was right, or if there would be little or no gap between the sound of the firing in the distance and the explosion nearby.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[Slouch]

really depends on the distance, type of gun, type of projectile, etc.

I was just reading "Four Years in the Confederate Horse Artillery", where at one battle he notes seeing the smoke from the muzzle, then the scream of the shell, followed shortly by the boom from the cannon. This was from a federal Parrot.

[LibertyHallVols]

1) Flash - Travels at the speed of light.
2) Boom - Travels at the speed of sound (I don't think CW projectiles were supersonic, but perhaps I'm wrong).
3) Thump? Maybe not! What if the projectile made some sort of noise as it travelled through the air? Those who've been to an N-SSA event can attest to the zipping, buzzing, or whistling of minie balls. I've never heard live artillery fire... anyone else?
4) Thump... or maybe "Boom", or whatever sound(s) you'd hear as it exploded/impacted.

Just a thought...

[Hank Trent]

really depends on the distance, type of gun, type of projectile, etc.

I was afraid "typical" would be too vague. Let's say, I dunno, a 12-lb Napoleon firing a shell against infantry at 800 yards. Does that sound reasonably common at a battle that might be reenacted? Or pick something similar that would be typical. I don't really know that much about artillery types.

Good point about the sound the projectile might make in the air as well. I've been shot at by modern small-arms fire, and the zipping/whining sound is noticeable, but never heard any kind of live artillery fire.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[Tom Craig]

I don't have much expertice myself, but I do know that numerous period accounts talk about the sound of shells whizzing or screaming through the air depending on the type of shell that it was.

From annectdotal reenacting experience I can say that at any sort of distance you definitely see the flash of the cannon (or rifle for that matter) muzzle well before you hear the sound of the explosion.

Take care,
Tom Craig
1st Maine Cavalry

[huntdaw]

Some years ago I was at Stone's River and happened to be directly across a field from a gun crew doing a demo at the visitor center. The distance would have been about 500-600 yards I suppose. I'm not a real good judge of distance but my perception of the size of the gun and crew would put it in that range.

Anyway, I didn't know they were going to do a demo and just happened to be standing in the woodline where some Confederate forces had been when they fired. Since I was looking directly at the gun I saw and heard very well what happened. I saw the flash and smoke and 2-3 seconds passed until I could hear the report. No thump nearby or whistling over head though, thankfully.:)

It was a pretty neat experience all in all and was done at more historically accurate ranges than what we see at a lot of events. If they had known I was there, they may not have done the demo as safety conscious as the NPR is.

[Rear Rank 2]

It was modern artillery, self propelled 175mm (since replaced by the 8 in.) and towed M-198 155mm that I called in. the rounds hit target before the sound of the guns from behind. Prior to impact the rounds could be heard going over.
Just my 2 cents worth.

[Jefferson Guards]

Some great video footage of live firing of period artillery at service ranges. I believe it answers some of the questions posed here:

http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=pbocorp&p=r

[BrianHicks]

As previously stated, the Flash travels at the speed of light.

You'll see the gun flash first.

The speed of the sound from the muzzle blast?

Speed of sound equals: 1129 feet per second. Depends on how far away you are. If you are 800 yards, (2400 feet) you'll hear the muzzle blast in just over 2 seconds after you see the flash.

The boom of the round exploding? Depends on the range to impact, and the weapon firing.

Here are some basic muzzle velocities:

M1857 12-pounder "Napoleon" = 1,440 ft/s

12-pounder Howitzer 1,054

10-pounder Parrott rifle 1,230

3-inch Ordnance Rifle 1,215

12-pounder Whitworth breechloading rifle 1,500

As you can see, the round will fly at just faster than the speed of sound (except for the 12 pounder howitzer), so the sound of the muzzle flash at 800 yards, will be just a fraction after the sound of the impact with most artillery fire.

[Johnny Lloyd]

Hank-

It takes some time for the sound of an explosion to reach the distance you are at. It depends how far away you are from the impact area how quickly you hear it.

Depending on the shape of the projectile, you can also hear the sonic whizz as it flies through the air above your head.

I have some practical experience in this. :wink_smil

All the best -Johnny Lloyd

[lukegilly13]

I remember reading, I think in "Company Aytch" where the soldiers were experiencing sniper fire and they kept saying "up goes smoke". It seems they were teasing a young private who was clinging to the ground hiding behind his hat. They were seeing the smoke, then hearing the round/impact, then hearing the shot. I'm guessing artillery would be the same only closer together.

[Carolann Schmitt]

In addition to the video Brian posted, a few years ago the History Channel did a show on the long-range artillery matches at Grayling, MI. The show had cameras and microphones on the firing line and at the target area. The sound and visual images are very impressive. The show also features some good examples of the effect of various artillery shells on their targets, and some very good shooting by John Wells and the 3rd US Artillery.

Anyone who has attended a N-SSA national skirmish knows there is a distinct difference in the sounds of a blank round and a live round.

And bronze mortars ring like a bell when they're fired...:)

Regards,
Carolann
Knaps Battery E, N-SSA

[Hank Trent]

This is great information! So long story short, it looks like ground charges that fire after a short delay from the sound of the artillery are not actually the way it would happen, but probably have something to do with hand-eye coordination of the operator and/or other reasons.

So typically (with lots of exceptions and variations, of course) it would be:

Flash
Whistle
Boom from the muzzle and explosion of the shell about the same time.

In other words, there would probably not be a flinch reaction to the sound of an enemy cannon, but there might be to the whistle or the flash/smoke if it could be seen.

Good information.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[Minieball577]

In addition to the video Brian posted, a few years ago the History Channel did a show on the long-range artillery matches at Grayling, MI. The show had cameras and microphones on the firing line and at the target area. The sound and visual images are very impressive. The show also features some good examples of the effect of various artillery shells on their targets, and some very good shooting by John Wells and the 3rd US Artillery.

Anyone who has attended a N-SSA national skirmish knows there is a distinct difference in the sounds of a blank round and a live round.

And bronze mortars ring like a bell when they're fired...:)

Regards,
Carolann
Knaps Battery E, N-SSA

Carolann touched on another aspect that I have been thinking about, and that is the distinct "Ring" of the bronze guns. Not only do the bronze Coehorns ring like a bell, but so does the Light Model 1857 Napoleon 12 Pndr Field gun, the closest in the attached image, we shoot regularly. This is something I have never heard when we have fired it with blanks.

Speaking of the Grayling MI long range match, that is coming up at the end of this month, and is open to spectators. More information can be found at the following website, http://www.museumandcollector.com/grayling.html

http://www.museumandcollector.com/pics/Artillery20shoot2007_20039.jpg

[jrd28thmp]

I'm with Battery G, 1st Penna Lt Art'y, and we are fortunate enough to crew an M1857 Napoleon, and from the research we have done, stumbled upon, and observed at events, my guess is you would see the flash and smoke before you met your maker, as far as i know, the projectiles fired from a napoleon did not make the characteristic whistling sound, they did not go fast enough, in fact, after one or two bounces of the solid shot projectile, it was going slow enough that, if you were far enough away, you would be able to witness the projectile skipping toward you, obviously, not that you could stop it...as far as the spherical case shot fired from the same weapon, again, there would be the smoke and flash, but the ideal explosion would be 50 feet above the head of the enemy, to rain shrapnel down, so at that close of a distance, i don't think the explosion would be audible unless you survive...hope this helps

[Thomas Alleman]

I have been to Grayling,MI live shoot and it is a frightful sight to see a 3 inch gun fire canister, it utterly churns the grounds up and the farther it goes the more pop up targets it hit. I saw them hit targets at 1000 yards and smooth bore hit barrels at 500. The sounds are one you will never forget. So when you see a gun go off, some will die. We never take hits like we should. Also if you get to go to a live shoot do it.

[3rdUSRedleg]

I have been to Grayling,MI live shoot and it is a frightful sight to see a 3 inch gun fire canister, it utterly churns the grounds up and the farther it goes the more pop up targets it hit. I saw them hit targets at 1000 yards and smooth bore hit barrels at 500. The sounds are one you will never forget. So when you see a gun go off, some will die. We never take hits like we should. Also if you get to go to a live shoot do it.

Sir;
That is one of the better most post I have seen on this website!!

With respect to your posting,

[marine05]

Mr. Hicks is correct,

MV for a Parrot 10 pounder is appoximately 1300 ft/sec, speed of sound as he stated is appoximately 1129 ft/sec or 4.7 seconds/mile. So at about 1 mile you would see the smoke/flash, then incoming burst, followed by the report. However depending on where you are along the GT line you may see the smoke/flash, then hear the report, noise of flight and impact in that order.

In addition barometric pressure affects sound as well, with fog causing sound to travel a bit faster, for if I remember correctly denser air cause sound to travel more quickly.

Parrot shells did make sounds going through the air and if I recall correctly Whitworth shells screamed.

With modern artillery I have experienced both outgoing and incoming artillery (outgoing good, incoming bad!!), at 22K meters you're not likely to hear a M198 howitzer's report unless you are at some point on the GT line. If I heard the round go overhead I knew I was not the target, if I heard impact without sound of flight, I was worried. Mortars you can hear the bloop as they fire plus round at is flies toward the target.

Good conversation and topic!!

S/F

DJM

[Duff]

I have also read in several first person accounts that Whitworth projectiles made a very distinct sound.

Also, one must remember that the friction in the air will slow the projectile down exponentially as it travels through the air. So, depending on the distance, the projectile may be going much slower than its muzzle velocity.

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

Once Upon a Time, from having fired an original 3 Inch Ordnance Rifle for three years and a smoothbore for one in the N-SSA, I would add that...
Yes, being behind a projectile, to my ear (a tin one at that though), the various shapes do make an interesting sound moving through the air away from you.

Curt

[Marc]

Hallo!

Once Upon a Time, from having fired an original 3 Inch Ordnance Rifle for three years and a smoothbore for one in the N-SSA, I would add that...
Yes, being behind a projectile, to my ear (a tin one at that though), the various shapes do make an interesting sound moving through the air away from you.

Curt

I have fired live also 3' ordnance, 10lb Parrot and orginal Napolean and Curt is correct they all have a distinct sound sound depending on the projectile being fired.

Nothing sweeter to hear than a Napolean live fired, muzzle dipping and that wonderful ring tone.

I believe from reading the diaries etc that the Whitworth cannon had a very distinct sound.

Reading in the wars after, all artillery had their own sound ie; German 88 etc

[Mbond057]

Just to add a little perspective to the topic from the Arizona desert.

I own a 12 Pdr Bronze (Mordecai Barrel) Mountain Howitzer with 4.625” bore with a 2.75” tapered chamber. Firing only 8oz blank rounds sounds like thunder before you get the “Pinging” that carries across the field.

I have live fired canister from the MH using 1 pound of 1Fg powder. At 120 yards it devastated the targets. Even the 2 X 4 supports on the target were shredded like tooth picks. It chewed up the desert dirt for 10 yards on each side of the target. Because I was using a homemade desert shooting range, there was Saguaro Cactus’s near by and I couldn’t increase the distance without damaging the cactus so I really haven’t experienced shooting at further distances.

I can assure you that you weren’t having a pleasant day if you happened to be on the business end of a canister delivery.

[artillerybuff]

I have fired live also 3' ordnance, 10lb Parrot and orginal Napolean and Curt is correct they all have a distinct sound sound depending on the projectile being fired.

Nothing sweeter to hear than a Napolean live fired, muzzle dipping and that wonderful ring tone.

I believe from reading the diaries etc that the Whitworth cannon had a very distinct sound.

Reading in the wars after, all artillery had their own sound ie; German 88 etc


Hello all,

We live fire our artillery pieces with full service loads which has included two 10 Pdr. Parrotts (1 lb. powder w/ 10 lb. bolts), a 12 Pdr. Field Howitzer 1 lb. powder w/ 12 lb. shot puts), two 6 Pdr.'s (1 lb. powder w/ 6 lb. shot puts), two 24 Pdr. Coehorn Mortars (8 ounces powder w/ 18 lb. shells) and a 12 Pdr. Mountain Howitzer (8 ounces powder w/ 12 lb. shot puts and Canister).
{note, we never exceed the table of fire and all of our pieces are either soild steel, steel lined, or properly cast and machined bronze; one lb. in a MH as previously posted is double what the piece was designed for and we won't do it, not even with blanks!}.

In years past we have allowed people to be approximately 400 yards down range in a target bunker while we fired at targets at 600 yards so they could hear the rounds going directly overhead. It is the most awesome experince to say the least! We hope to be able to do this again at our next live fire in January 2009 here in the Imperial Valley.

My question to you Marc, is what load and ammo do you use in your Napoleon? I know the table of fire calls for a whopping 2.5 lbs., but since we are only shooting 600 yards I thought we might be able to cut that load by half? We have a new piece being made to use in January, and it will be easily capable of handling full spec loads, but I was wondering what you guys used and how accurate it was etc. Usually we just go directly from the original Table of Fire, but would appreciate your expertise and sharing of your practical experience before we start expending expensive powder & ammo.


Many thanks~

Anthony Variz

PS: Regarding the original question -- While muzzle velocity does exceed the speed of sound with most CW field artillery, it has been my experience that this velocity is not maintained for very long as the rounds slow down. We have timed our rounds from time of fire to impact at range and they appear to be WELL below 1,000 FPS down range, and this is with full service loads. My best guess is the sound and impact will be very close depending on the range.

[Marc]

Hello all,


My question to you Marc, is what load and ammo do you use in your Napoleon? I know the table of fire calls for a whopping 2.5 lbs., but since we are only shooting 600 yards I thought we might be able to cut that load by half? We have a new piece being made to use in January, and it will be easily capable of handling full spec loads, but I was wondering what you guys used and how accurate it was etc. Usually we just go directly from the original Table of Fire, but would appreciate your expertise and sharing of your practical experience before we start expending expensive powder & ammo.


Many thanks~

Anthony Variz

.

We fired the Napolean with 2lbs of powder at targets 1200 yards away. We were not very accurate with the Napolean, but the rifled guns hit the target every time. This was on a farm and also at Ft Indiantown Gap a few years ago. Hope this helps.

Marc

[Brian Wiswell]

I was in a trench when CW artillary was using live (round ball) rounds and firing over our heads. i didn't SEE the muzzle blast because I was below grade level (way below)! I heard the muzzle blast and then heard the round wizz over head as it went to its target. Gave me a good idea what the boys were hearing back in the Civil War.

This was all done at an old military firing range during one of our Live Fire events here in California. Pretty cool.

Brian Wiswell

[artillerybuff]

I was in a trench when CW artillary was using live (round ball) rounds and firing over our heads. i didn't SEE the muzzle blast because I was below grade level (way below)! I heard the muzzle blast and then heard the round wizz over head as it went to its target. Gave me a good idea what the boys were hearing back in the Civil War.

This was all done at an old military firing range during one of our Live Fire events here in California. Pretty cool.

Brian Wiswell

That would indicate the rounds were traveling slower than the speed of sound in that particular situation, which is what I have observed as well.

Anthony Variz

[Abrams]

I found an excerpt from 'General Lees Army' by Joseph T Glatthaar that gives an account that might be of aid to this discussion. On pages 320-321, the following passage gives some insight to this question from a Louisiana Lieutenant:

A Louisiana Lieutenant recieved his baptism by fire at Yorktown, and artillery loomed largest in his immediate memory as well. "I think the most unpleasant remembrances of the Strife are these same schrapnell shot," he declared to his mother. "They get to us some seconds before the report of the powder that sent them so that the first thing we know of them [is] a shrill whistle unlike any thing you or I ever heard, before, then, the sharp bell-like crack of the bomb--the whistle of the little balls like bumble bees--then the report of the Gun." It all came so close together, though, that "it takes a very fine ear to distinguish which is first."

So it sounds like it all comes very close together, but first the whistle of the shell coming, then the explosion of the shell, the wizzing of shrapnell, and finally the report of the cannon firing.

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

As an aside, here are some muzzle velocities of Civil War ordnance (I assume the numbers are at the muzzle, as velocity decreases quickly over distance):

From "Characteristics of Principal Civil War Smoothbore and Rifled Field-Artillery Weapons" form Harold Peterson's NOTES ON ORDNANCE OF THE AMERICAN CIVIL WAR:

Models of 1841-1844

6 pd gun.............1,439 fps
12 pd gun...........1,486
12 pd howitzer.....1,054
24 pd howitzer.... 1,060
32 pd howitzer.... 1,100
12 pd mountain howitzer.... 650

Model of 1857

12 pd Napoleon....1, 440

Rifles

10 pd Parrott.......1,230
3 Inch Ordnance...1,215
20 pd Parrott.......1,250
12 pd James........1,000
24 pd James........1,000
6 pd Wiard..........1,300
10 pd Wiard.........1,230
12 pd Whitworth...1,600
12 pd Blakely........1,250
3 Inch Armstrong...1,350
6 pd Whitworth......1,550
12 pd Whitworth....1,500
3 Inch Armstrong...1,300

Reminded of the "The bullet that gets you is the one you hear after you are shot."

Curt

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

As an aside, here are some muzzle velocities of Civil War ordnance (I assume the numbers are at the muzzle, as velocity decreases quickly over distance):

From "Characteristics of Principal Civil War Smoothbore and Rifled Field-Artillery Weapons" form Harold Peterson's NOTES ON ORDNANCE OF THE AMERICAN CIVIL WAR:

Models of 1841-1844

6 pd gun.............1,439 fps
12 pd gun...........1,486
12 pd howitzer.....1,054
24 pd howitzer.... 1,060
32 pd howitzer.... 1,100
12 pd mountain howitzer.... 650

Model of 1857

12 pd Napoleon....1, 440

Rifles

10 pd Parrott.......1,230
3 Inch Ordnance...1,215
20 pd Parrott.......1,250
12 pd James........1,000
24 pd James........1,000
6 pd Wiard..........1,300
10 pd Wiard.........1,230
12 pd Whitworth...1,600
12 pd Blakely........1,250
3 Inch Armstrong...1,350
6 pd Whitworth......1,550
12 pd Whitworth....1,500
3 Inch Armstrong...1,300

(The speed of sound is 1129 fps in dry air at 68 Degrees)

Reminded of the "The bullet that gets you is the one you hear after you are shot."

Curt

[John Rouse]

I thought the excerpted paragraph below, from Wiley's The Life of Billy Yank (pg. 78) is relevant to the discussion.

The sound of artillery missiles, to which soldiers gave such nicknames as "camp kettles," "cook stoves," "lamp posts," "iron foundries," "tubs" and bootlegs," was most frequently referred to as a scream. After Antietam a surgeon wrote: "You can have no idea of the horrible noise the shells make-when one passes over your head with its scream as if 50 Locomotive Whistles were blowing at once, no man can help dodging."

Humbly Sentient,

John Rouse

[fedguy]

I have had the honor to be present (very close, as in right next to the gun) during the live firing of a Rev War 4-pounder. The sound of the ball leaving the barrel and travelling downrange was akin to the doppler effect sound of a jet just before you hear the exhaust note as it passes you. The sounds used in Gettysburg during the preliminary cannonade to Pickett's Charge, especially the one that fires just as the camera is panning past, were remarkably similar.