The Yellow Rose of Texas.

[Deuceswilde]

Very often I hear a version of this song played that differs from the melody found on the 1858 score. When asked about it, the performers will answer with a vague "It is the old version" or "that's the way it used to be played." The problem I am having is that I have not been able to locate a documented source for this alleged "old style" melody. I will admit that my resources are pretty limited, but because this other version is the one I hear most often played at events by groups who (erroneously) claim to be giving an accurate impression, it would stand to reason that it would be easy to find. So, I ask of you fine ladies and gents, does anyone have a documented source of this variation? I would post notation examples but it seems I am not allowed to add attachments. Hopefully folks understand what I am talking about.

[FranklinGuardsNYSM]

In a world in which, to some people, "history" is the old episodes of "Star Trek," many undead historians learn their period tunes from Mitch Miller and the Gang rather than from primary sources.

Sorry you can't post attachments yet -- send me a Private Message, though, and you can e-mail me the score that you have -- but this is what I've found, and it doesn't really differ from the "popular" version of the past century.

http://scriptorium.lib.duke.edu/sheetmusic/conf/conf04/conf0451/conf0451-2-72dpi.jpeg

Curious as to how the 1858 score differs, and what the shrugging masses claim is the "old" version.

[Danny]

Very often I hear a version of this song played that differs from the melody found on the 1858 score. When asked about it, the performers will answer with a vague "It is the old version" or "that's the way it used to be played." The problem I am having is that I have not been able to locate a documented source for this alleged "old style" melody...

Joel -

Well, from one source * anyway, the earliest known record of the lyric is an 1836 handwritten manuscript, a poem, written just after the battle of San Jacinto (April 21, 1836). It is signed by a "H.B.C.", with these lyrics and spelling:

There's a yellow rose in Texas
That I am a going to see
No other darky knows her
No one only me

She cryed so when I left her
It like to broke my heart
And if I ever find her
We nevermore will part

She's the sweetest rose of color
This darky ever knew
Her eyes are bright as diamonds
They sparkle like the dew

You may talk about dearest May
and sing of Rosa Lee
But the yellow rose of Texas
Beats the belles of Tennessee

So it must have been later, not earlier, that "soldier" replaced "darky", and "She's the sweetest little flower...." replaced " She's the sweetest rose of color...." . And probably also the stuff about Beauregard, Bobby Lee or "Sing of General Lee". And probably not until the retreat of Hood from Tennessee 1864 was the stuff added about going back to Uncle Joe in Georgia added.

At any rate the first published score was 1858, the one you refer to. (for those that don't have it you can download the 1858 sheet music as a pdf from http://levysheetmusic.mse.jhu.edu. No Civil War references in the lyrics of that version either.

So whatever your Pards are claiming about "the earlier version", it would have to be some sort of folk (unpublished) version of the song, verbally passed on and sung before 1858. Where's their source?

IMHO, for authentic impression then it seems safer to play the 1858 published version or one of the knock-offs published soon after, at least til mid-war period. That's what folks played on parlor piano and heard on Minstrel stage anyway.

Dan Wykes




*http://www.amaranthpublishing.com/yellow.htm

[Deuceswilde]

The 1858 version is identical save the font and title layout. Lyrics were not my concern. The melody that is played is completely different than the known examples. http://www.banjohangout.ws/users/photos/large/22187-2551132772008.jpg
http://www.banjohangout.ws/users/photos/large/22187-1541132772008.jpg

[Danny]

...Lyrics were not my concern. The melody that is played is completely different than the known examples...

Joel -

OK, see what you mean. Well at least we know that at the time it was common to use different tunes for any given set of lyrics ("Blue-tail Fly" and "Amazing Grace" supposedly are examples). Since "Yellow Rose..." had no published score (that we know of) before 1858 it could have been sung to anything. Bully.

But with undetermined origins the older tune is simply a humbug, a reenactorism without merit. The tune works well enough though - hope someone can identify it's source independent of the "Yellow Rose..." lyrics.

Dan Wykes

[Annette Bethke]

Here is a link to the Yellow Rose of Texas article on the Handbook of Texas.
http://www.tshaonline.org/handbook/online/articles/YY/xey1.html

[Hank Trent]

I know it's not about the lyrics, but I can't figure out how the lyrics could even be sung to the tune of the "old version" posted above (which I don't believe I've ever heard played, if I'm hearing it in my head correctly from the score).

Is it supposed to be starting out with the words "There's a yellow rose..."? If so, I get

There's a yellow (pause) rose in Texas (missing word for the quarter note)

And then it's all messed up until the fouth measure when "no one only me" fits perfectly. And then it's all messed up again.

I know the question isn't about the lyrics, but I'm not sure if the implication is that the normal lyrics fit the "old version," or is the "old version" just supposed to be a use of the same title for an unrelated tune?

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[Danny]

Here is a link to the Yellow Rose of Texas article on the Handbook of Texas.
http://www.tshaonline.org/handbook/online/articles/YY/xey1.html

Annette -

I saw that link too but rejected it because it is misleading in describing "A handwritten manuscript of the song" and "...at least one scholar believes that it could have been composed by an uneducated person, possibly one of Morgan's slaves." In other words that site implies that that the original was scored music and not just words. Quite an accomplishment for anyone on the Frontier at that time to be able to compose music, especially an uneducated person. So I think that site is in error, I think it was only a poem.

The trick is to see that manuscript in the A. Henry Moss Papers in the Center for American History, to see if it was a music score, which would be the answer every question on this thread.

Dan Wykes

[Annette Bethke]

I work just down the street from the center and several of the staff in my office go there frequently. I'll put the word out next time someone goes to see if they can look it up and see what is there. I'll also see if they can find the document listed in the bibliography of the HBT article.

[Joe Walker]

Annette-

Around Texas you may have heard that version "When I get to Austin" sung to the tune of "Yellow Rose". Some have called it the "early version" but I think it is a later version for early 20th century square dances.

Joe Walker
Waco Guards

[Annette Bethke]

A staff member is going to the Center for American History on Wednesday. He will pull the Moss file and see if he can get a copy of the manuscript and any associated details. He will also look through the file to see if there is any mention of the words being put to music and if so, what tune.

[Deuceswilde]

Thanks for all the replies. Because of the difficulty of tracing the origins, I an confidant that it is not PEC, and feel that Danny is correct by the reenactorism. The singing is the other odd part. They cram all of the lyrics in to part A. Part B is instrumental, and of corse played loud and at 100 mph. My notation of the melody is very simple as I was working from memory. I have not found any documentation on this arrangement to work from. I am by no means a competent composer composer. I apologize for the following link but is is the closest I could find quickly to illustrate the lyric pattern.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tSUeYLA8go

[Joe Walker]

This Youtube version is the one I call "When I get back to Austin". I was told many years ago it was the "old version". Personally, this "reel" didn't strike me as being period. If it is the "old version" I would be surpized, but informed. I play this version with a minstrel medicine show here in Texas.

Joe Walker
Waco Guards

[Danny]

... I apologize for the following link but is is the closest I could find quickly to illustrate the lyric pattern.

In that U-tube, by the time they get to the B part it sounds like an iteration of "Soldiers Joy" B part. If so, that's a tried- and- true standard, an almost generic tune for fiddlers then and now. Not too much of a stretch to suppose the old-timers would slap "Yellow Rose..." or almost any other lyric on such a tune... particularly by the end of the night.

Still, that has to remain conjecture. The UT records pull may confirm...

Dan Wykes

[Joe Walker]

Danny-

You're right, old Uncle Dave did that a lot.

Joe Walker
Waco Guards

[Danny]

...You're right, old Uncle Dave did that a lot.Joe Walker...Waco Guards

For the uninitiate, that's Uncle Dave Macon, a 20th century performer who learned singing styles and stage antics directly from the remaining Minstrels of the 19th century, only starting his own performing career quite late in life.

Dan Wykes

[Annette Bethke]

A copy of the original poem has been requested; it will take a few weeks as they are backed up. There was no music in the files, nor mention of any tune for the poem. The manuscript also is not dated. As soon as I have a copy of the original manuscript I will scan it for you to see.

[Danny]

A copy of the original poem has been requested...I will scan it for you to see.

Annette -

Just a mention that we singers of this heritage Southern ditty appreciate your extra effort :)

- Dan Wykes, with Joel, Marc, Hank, and the "Dixie Dewdrop"*

*Uncle Dave Macon

[Annette Bethke]

Just an update on the copy of the poem. It is ready to pickup but I can't get over there to get it until next week. Sorry for the delay.

[Dale Beasley]

Yellow Rose of Texas....I left her in El Paso:(

[Annette Bethke]

Bet you thought I forgot; sorry, other things took over for a bit. So here are scans of copies from the Center for American History here in Austin.

[Annette Bethke]

Now that I have had time to really look at the document, it appears the document is written as a song as part way down is written "Chorus"; so it would appear it's not a poem in this version.

[Danny]

". . . and if I ever find her, we never more will fart." ??

Annette -

I don't quite get that part ;) . . . but thank you so much for posting the excellent hi-res scans. I think it's interesting to remind us of the voice of the song as written: ". . . no other darky knows her, none only me . . ." If a popular tune for white Texans and other Southerns, imagine how quickly that voice was dropped.

Anyway, no answer to which tune the writer had in mind for these lyrics, which as you say were definitely intended as song lyrics and not just a poem as those other educated sources would have us believe.

Dan Wykes

[Annette Bethke]

LOL. Yes, I thought it said fart too, but I believe it should be part :). I really hate trying to read period script, especially when it's not in a professional or legal document. Also, if you try to sing it to the tune we know now, there are parts that don't quite fit.

I just opened the scans here at home...I'm so sorry, they looked great at work. I'll get better scans up soon.

[Danny]

... if you try to sing it to the tune we know now, there are parts that don't quite fit... just opened the scans here at home...I'm so sorry, they looked great at work. I'll get better scans up soon.

Annette -

The scans are very good quality, no need for better - some home desktop photo programs or the Windows viewers don't display full quality as a default. If you have Photoshop at home, use that and you'll see it's fine.

Actually I'm finding the archive words still do fit the tune we know now, the 1858 published document. The author needed to cram all on one piece of paper so didn't indicate breaks. One possible clue though was the way the author took pains to underline certain word pairs or sets. He could have just underlined everything but made more work of it for some reason. I'm thinking it was to emphasize the way it was sung, which in fact does make sense with the 1858 published version if you keep a metered beat using those joined word pairs and sets.

I transcript the earlier handwritten here with the original unique underline choices:

There's a yellow rose in Texas
That I am a going to see
No other darky knows her
None only me

She cryed so when I left her
It like to broke my heart
And if I ever find her
we never more will part

Chorus

She is the sweetest rose of color
This darky ever knew
Her eyes are bright as diamonds
They sparkle like the dew

You may talk a bout dearest may
and sing of Rosa Lee
But the yellow rose of Texas
Beats the belles of Tennessee

Where the Rio Grande is flowing
and the starry skies are bright
She walks a long the river in the
quite Summer night

She thinks if I remember
when we started long ago
I promised to come back a gain
and not to leave her so

Oh now I am a going to find her
for my heart is full of woe
and we will sing the song together
we sung so long ago

Dan Wykes

p.s. notice how the last verse as originally written takes on the meaning that the Yellow Rose and the author will "sing the song together we sung so long ago" In other words their song, not this song. Lends a more romantic, possibly more personal and real slant to the little song.

[Hank Trent]

You may talk a bout dearest may
and sing of Rosa Lee
But the yellow rose of Texas
Beats the belles of Tennessee

That's the part I was wondering about, to see if it was actually in the manuscript... And by the way, the scans showed up beautifully for me as well.

Is this the manuscript that they claim was "written just after the battle of San Jacinto (April 21, 1836)" from Post #2 in this thread? What date are they claiming for the manuscript?

Because I believe it's no earlier than the late 1840s. Either that, or two other songs need to have their dates of origin changed as well.

"talk about dearest May"--that's surely a reference to the song Dearest Mae (http://hdl.loc.gov/loc.music/sm1848.100130), generally first dated to 1848.

"sing of Rosa Lee"--that's surely a reference to Rosa Lee (http://levysheetmusic.mse.jhu.edu/levy-cgi/display.cgi?id=020.144.000;pages=1;range=0-0), generally first dated to 1847.

Dearest Mae and Rosa Lee were sometimes paired together (http://levysheetmusic.mse.jhu.edu/levy-cgi/display.cgi?id=017.009a.000;pages=2;range=0-1), so it's no surprise to see them both mentioned together in another song.

The "belles of Tennessee" may also be a reference to the first line of Rosa Lee, "When I lived in Tennessee..."

So I think if this manuscript is to be dated earlier than the late forties, there also needs to be evidence that both Rosa Lee and Dearest Mae were famous enough to use as a common reference, at an earlier date as well. Otherwise, the coincidence of making reference to two common songs from the future is too great.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[Annette Bethke]

Yes, this is the handwritten pages from the Austin History Center that is referenced in quite a few pieces on the song. There was no dated information in the file referenced to this document other than what is mentioned in the Handbook of Texas. A quick search for an E.A. Jones didn't bring up anything either.

Glad the scans are coming through ok for y'all after all.

[Danny]

"talk about dearest May"--that's surely a reference to the song...Dearest Mae... /
"sing of Rosa Lee"--that's surely a reference to Rosa Lee...Hank Trent

Hank -

Good observation.
Folks, read the lyrics (.txt) attached, and click on these here for a listen* :

Rosa Lee (also known as Don't Be Foolish Joe):
http://albert-baur.googlegroups.com/web/Rosa%20Lee.mid?hl=en&gsc=CvBuVwsAAACZfZhXlBg4kVvxIQu24W-d

Dearest Mae (also known as Dearest May)
http://albert-baur.googlegroups.com/web/Dearest-Mae.mid?hl=en&gsc=CvBuVwsAAACZfZhXlBg4kVvxIQu24W-d

Dan Wykes

*I know, I hate .mid files too, but at least you get the idea from these renditions above. The original compositions were likely meant to be played slower

[sthabig]

I have heard the version sung by Bobby Horton that includes Gen. Lee and Uncle Joe which had been mentioned earlier which brings me to the question...who creates the most authentic (what I mean by that is music that existed and was sung during the war and not after) music?

Thank you,

Tyler Habig