4th Michigan (canada hat )

[recruiter4thmichigan]

Okay i came here looking for some help, I am wanting to find someone who can help me out by making these hats for myself and others. I have asked other Suppliers of hats and i get told to talk to the same person, when i did i was told they didnt want to do them because they didnt want to buy the felt needed. Here is what i am looking for, the (canada Hat ) is a simple felt hat that is rolled up in the bottom, the color is of a medium maroon color, the tassle is ski blue in color with the bulb of the tassle attached to the very top of the hat, the tassle cords should come to the bottom of the ear or to the bottom of the jaw. My question does anyone know of someone that will make these hats out there. There are anumber of people interested in buying this hats if someone can and will make them. Thanks ever so much for any help in this matter.
Steve Bucher
4th Michigan Co A

[Secesh]

A photograph of such a hat would help immensely....

[lukegilly13]

I believe this to be the hat you are refering to:
http://www.4thmichigan.com/images/Canada_Hat_4th_Michigan.jpg
from the Dale R. Niesen Collection

[recruiter4thmichigan]

Yes Sir that would be the hat i am looking for .There are also more photos at the following website www.4thmichigan.com

[lukegilly13]

Although that is not a very detailed image, I believe that it would not be extremely hard to reproduce if one could get access to the materials. Is there any trim (like a braiding around the folded bottom) or do you know of any color (modern) images of an original?

[recruiter4thmichigan]

These hats were made in several different variations some with out a border and some with , all depends on when they were made and who made them it seems. From what i can tell it looks like the early hats didnt have a colored edge around them, but some of the what seems to be later made ones did. From a colored on photo the hat is like i stated a medium maroon color with a ski blue tassle

[lukegilly13]

There are several wool felt suppliers out there. If you have detailed images showing the construction of the hat...this looks to me like a basic hat to reproduce. You might experiement with some cheaper fabric until you get the pattern and the look you want.
I have ordered wool felt from a supplier in the past...they ahve maroon in-stock and I contacted then for a price. I'll let you know as soon as they get back to me.

[lukegilly13]

The problem with the fabric is that the minimum order is $100. It only runs between $7.50 and $9.50 per yard. This is from New York Felt.

[recruiter4thmichigan]

Well if i knew how many hats that would make and had some one that could make it i would buy the felt myself thats not a problem

[lukegilly13]

Sent you a PM with an idea for you:
Sorry it took so long...I have a 10 week old baby and he got a little fussy!

[Minieball577]

Steve, isn't there an original hat from the 4th Michigan in the State museum in Lansing? I am near certain that there is.

[recruiter4thmichigan]

Yes indeed there is a hat there but we cant seem to agree that it is correct, look at the hat and look at photos from then and it seems different. , this being said it would be interesting to see how that hat is sewn together

[lukegilly13]

Here is another picture of the hat:
http://www.civil-war.net/cw_images/files/images/157.jpg
Unfortunately you still cannot see anything about the construction. courtesy of Library of Congress.
Also a good picture of camp shoes and check out that shirt!

[lukegilly13]

http://www.4thmichigan.com/images/4th%20Mi%20m.s.a.%205.jpg
Here is one with trimming

[unionprivate]

Forgive me for interjecting here, but instead of making an announcement on this forum, why not call, email or visit a hat vendor!? Such examples would be Dirty Billy, Greg Starbuck or Chris Semancik. Get in touch with these guys, as it would be most beneficial to speak directly to the source. They could tell you price, design, turn around time, availability, quantity, etc.

[lukegilly13]

Here is an image from Chris Daley's website of a Zouave Fez turned up. With the exception of the yellow tassel instead of sky blue....is this pretty close?
http://www.cjdaley.com/146th3.jpg

[Minieball577]

From what I recall of the originall in the Lansing Museum it was not too unlike the 146th NY fex you have posted here. I don't recall the color of the tassel.

[JustRob]

Greg Starbuck was most obliging when I approached him about a special cap of my own. He was a pleasure to work with.

[Rmhisteach]

You could also contact Ni............ oops I forgot . You could contact that one vender from New Jersey. He has a funky smoking cap I sure he could make one of those hats.
:)

RM

[Beaner]

Time for me to step up and join the discussion. Steve has talked to many of the individuals being suggested. No one has indicated that they are willing to help out. The 4th Mi. has been trying to get the Canada hat made for several years. The hat is very similar to the one in Lansing which has been I.D. to a New York unit. The unit was a sister unit to the 4th, serving in the same brigade as the 4th. There are original colored tintypes of the hat. We cannot present them here. They are in a private collection and the individual who owns them doen't want them published. there at least 20 individuals looking to have these hats made. We have an event upcoming that features the 4th and would like to have these hats represented at the event. Any help will be appreciated. Personal background, I owned and maintained the 4th
Michigan.com until this past year. I would be more than happy to answer any questions you might have.

Dave Prince
Event Coordinator
Skirmish at the Mill 2008

[lukegilly13]

Dave,
I have been enjoying this research for a few days now.....it is easy to find pictures...difficult to find details! I have contacted a few guys who have made hats for me in the past. Don't know what the response will be but I will let you guys know. The question that keeps coming up:
Are they stiffened (like the top of a bowler, top hat, etc) or are they soft and flexible like a modern New Era baseball hat material? Also, are they seemless on the crown or are there several seems that intersect at the tassel?

[zouavecampaigner]

Dave,

I've always been interested in the 4th MI's so-called Canadien Caps. What can you tell me about the sky blue tassels that I've seen the reenactors wear? A dark blue fez or red fez with proper dark blue tassel will photograph the exact same way in a wetplate or tintype. Though, I've never seen an original 4th MI fez/Canadien cap up close. A number of NON-zouave regiments received red fezzes with dark blue tassels and fatigue hats, especially 2-year NY regiments and MA regiments. There are photos of guys in both wearing fezzes (almost ALWAYS listed as "zouaves" on eBay to con ppl out of more money). Hardtack and Coffee even talks about how MA gave red fezzes with blue tassels to all it's troops early on.

Regards,
Shaun Grenan
Gettysburg, PA (formerly of Detroit, eh!)

[zouavecampaigner]

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t250/shaunfalco/firezouaves.jpg

A photo by Robert Szabo of members of Co. E, 1st NY Fire Zouaves at 145th Manassas. Check out Eric's fez (middle row, b'hoy on the right).

Regards,
Shaun

[recruiter4thmichigan]

By a colored photo of the 4th michigan that we have seen the color of the tassle is ski blue. Wish we could post the photo but like Dave says it belongs to a collector. This hat ure has been a very hard hat to find anything about, maybe in time one wil show up. But for now we need to do our best with what we have to remake this hat.

[recruiter4thmichigan]

One more thing, the tassles i have seen on hat that reenactors wear are not the correct type for the Canda Hat, the tassles on this hat are larger then others, and the bulb of the tassle is attached right to the very top of the hat. The tassles also hang from the bottom of the bulb to the bottom of the ear, now some even go to the bottom of the jaw

[zouavecampaigner]

Steve,

you can't always go by a tinted image to get the proper colours.

Also, the tassels as seen on zouave fezzes can be adjusted to ride close in, or left to hang down. Check out this fellow, smack dab in the center of a group of 11th NY POWs, and his pard to the far right. http://www.myrtle-avenue.com/firezou/musicalhall.jpg

[Minieball577]

My understanding of the 4th michigan was that it was intended to be a quasi-Zouave regiment initially, or at least had a few companies that were (?) so that would lend some credibility to the fez theory, if it could be corroborated.

[recruiter4thmichigan]

You are so very true with that Sir, the colors were up to the person who took the photo and then painted them. There are others that i know who take photos and others that have down research and everyone still ssays the tassles are of a light blueish color thus me stating they were ski blue, Once i can find someone to reproduce these hats i will have some period photos taken of it to compare and see what differences there are and if we need to adjust it we will. We wont reall know exactly what the hat really looks like until someone finds one in there closet, garage , barn ect, Sure would be nice to find one. On another note it would also be nice to find out what happened , and where our Gettysburg flag went !

[Eureka Independent]

Hi Steve and All,

You might check out the Sketchbook of the American Revolution, even though it is for a sisiter hobby, It does have some information that helps shed light on some projects.

If I remember correctly there is some information on the "Canadian Cap"

Hope this helps

All the best

Don S

[zouavecampaigner]

Steve,

take a look at this. Here are 2 New York Zouaves, in fezzes with dark blue tassels, and yet, they photographed seemingly a light colour.

http://memory.loc.gov/pnp/cwp/4a40000/4a40900/4a40902r.jpg


Also, for Ellsworthy inspiration, there were indeed militia that were the basis of Co. G which originally wore "red cap, blue jacket, and red pants", and the Adrian Guard Zouaves, who copied Ellsworth's US Zouave Cadets from their pre-war tour.

Regards,
Shaun

[lukegilly13]

How long would it take dark blue wool yarn to fade? Being on top of the fez it would be exposed to direct sunlight and all the elements! Also, due to the nature of the tassel, all sides of the yarn might at different times be exposed.

[Beaner]

Shaun,
Great to hear from you. I know you have researched the 4th. Company G of the 4th Mustered in as Zouies. Harrison Daniel's Diary confirms this. Your imput is greatly appreciated. These pictures are close to what the 4th had. We have seen more than one color tintype of soldiers with the hats. The tassel is definitely sky blue. The top of hat is stiff. The fold of the bim is varied. Most of the pictures show it to be approximately halfway to the top. The tassel falls to at least the bottom of the inner ear. The color of the hat is medium maroon. Anyone willing to manufacture these will be greatly appreciated. There at least 20 individuals interested in these hats. There are other projects in the offing where they will needed.

Please help us,
Dave Prince

[Secesh]

Has anyone thought to contact Greg Starbuck...??

[zouavecampaigner]

The top of hat is stiff. The fold of the bim is varied. Most of the pictures show it to be approximately halfway to the top. The tassel falls to at least the bottom of the inner ear. The color of the hat is medium maroon.

Dave,
call me a doubting Elmer, but it sounds to me like you're talking about a red fez with dark blue tassel. I've seen them tinted maroon on photos, when they're, in reality, scarlet. Also, how do you know that the top is stiff? Again, sounds like a wool felt fez. An (in)famous period painting of 2 of White's Tigers in camp show a "stiff topped-fez", but when you compare it to drawings and paintings done in the same style in France or the Crimea, etc. of French Zouaves, they show the same "stiff-top" to the fez, and yet, we know that their chechia (as, in the rest of the world, "fezzes" were worn by Arabs, and were stiff, and "chechias" were worn by the Zouaves, Turcos, Chasseurs, etc., and were not stiffened) was NOT like that at all, even though multiple artists show it that way. I've got an original chechia, as well. Also, there are tinted images, for example, showing the 114th PA with a red sash, or the 5th NY with a sky blue tassel, and some others I've experienced over the years. Alas, not all tinters were Troianis.

I would put one of my fezzes on and get a tintype to try it out, but mine all fit right, so that I don't have to roll the end up to make them tighter :)

Luke,
As for the tassel fading, I'm sure it would have some fading, but the original fire zouave one at the MOC is nice and dark blue. Also, the originals I've handled in the GNMP collection show little sign of fading at all, let alone a change from dark blue to sky blue. Also, we know the 4th had forage caps as well as fez caps/canadien caps, and from personal experience, I would venture a guess that the fezzes were put away in inclement weather/scorching sun. I've worn a fez in the hot sun for 3 days, and I had burn blisters on my forehead, nose, and cheeks, and looked like someone from the burn unit. It was not something I ever, EVER want to do again.


Regards,
Shaun

[zouavecampaigner]

Dave,

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t250/shaunfalco/sgzou.jpg

Me as a French Zouave (4th Zouaves, Siege of Paris), with a chechia imported from Europe. It's a maroon red with dark blue tassel. Check out how it photographed.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t250/shaunfalco/sgzou2.jpg

And now, here I am as a member of the 74th NY Zouaves, OR the Philadelphia Zouave Corps, OR the Avegno Zouaves, among others (confusing, ain't it?). Anyway, it's a Dirty Billy fez, which is maroon with a yellow tassel. Note how the colours photograph. I had another glass plate taken in this same uniform a few years ago, and the jacket's trim came out dark (seemingly red, rather than the yellow it actually is). It's all in the process, I guess! Heck, in one of our earliest 114th PA photos of 5 of us, all in dirty billy fezzes, 3 yellow tassels came out "dark", and 2 came out "light". Talk about a HUH moment!

(Both images by Rob Gibson)

Regards,
Shaun Grenan

[kent miller]

Steve: 4th Michigan Company C in of the ACWHRS in Ontario might have the answer. I know two contacts in our organization who might be resources. I will forward email addresses later today.:)

[tomarch]

This is going to sound crazy, but if the hat is called a "canada hat" and I assume the 4th contained a large number of lumberjacks, wouldn't the hat be a knit cap w/ a tassel (like a touque) insead of wool felt like a zouave fez? I looked a a few photos in my copy of Millers Photographic History and that's what they suggest to me..

[Erik]

I suspect that there might have been a few canadian lumberjacks in the 4th, but that's okay. That part of Canada West ( as it was known then) was pretty settled and produced more farmers, laborers and clerks.
The Canada cap seems to be an adaptation of the Voyageur's cap widely seen during the opening of the North West. This, IMO, derives from the French peasant cap commonly worn as a work hat in France and Quebec. It bears similarities to the French Bonnet de Police or forage cap.
Made of wool with a turn up all round and a tassle.
The resemblance to the fez is of course a ready assumption as when the hat is made more comfortable / stylish to the American or Canadian recruit it takes on this aspect.
I shall take a look at Voyageur articles and National Historic Sites to see what cultural background would inspire such a cap.
I do not think it was a knitted cap after looking at the photographs.
Just my 1.05 cents worth.

Erik Simundson

[recruiter4thmichigan]

I agree with Erik on what this hat was made of , it is felt (wool)for the largest mass of them , some photos do look like they may have been knitted, But what we want made is a felt hat with a wool tassle, everyone may speculate on what they are or were but from the things we know right now we are trying to get these hats made , I think we know as much as we are going to know for the time being until someone finds one of these hats! I wish some one did have one then all our questions would be answered.

[zouavecampaigner]

Steve, Dave, and others,

here is some more food for thought. I love the 4th MI website, btw guys, bang up job! Here are 2 fez-wearers from the 4th, as on your site:

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t250/shaunfalco/4thMIfez1.jpg
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t250/shaunfalco/4thMIfez2.jpg

NOW, take a look at these 2 23rd PA Zouaves in their fezzes. The one's even got a badge on the front of his dark blue fez. Compare that to the 4th MI fellow with a badge on the front of his headwear.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t250/shaunfalco/23rdpv2.jpg
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t250/shaunfalco/23rdpv1.jpg

Regards,
Shaun

[Erik]

I have taken a look at the various resources describing the head wear of Voyageurs and found an interesting document which describes the Canadian Cap.
It is not a fez, but a distinctive hat worn in Canada. The cap is depicted as having a fur band which in our use is discarded. I think that there are other versions of this hat commonly worn during the 18th and 19th centuries. I shall continue my hunt for authentic references which connect with the 4th, but I believe this to be the smoking gun which ties it together. Change the cloth to Maroon, put a sky blue tassle on it, lose the fur and you have the Canadian Cap under discussion.
It is not a fez.
Here is a copy of the pertinent page.

"Canadian Cap


B. Moore, We Proceeded On, 2001.

Wool Canadian Caps with their fur bands have been around since at least the middle 1700s. These are nice looking warm hats and they are easily constructed. The cap is made from four or more wedge shaped pieces of wool or blanket material sewn into a beanie. These pieces can be doubled and/or lined with linen, fustian or cotton. You can take your measurements from the segments of a favorite baseball cap. Either a separate band, about 3” wide, can be sewn around the bottom, or your “football” sections can be lengthened and then turned up on the sides about 3”. Fur is sewed on this band and it forms a large fur band around the cap.




The Canada Cap is well documented for use in the 18th and into the 19th century. The artist F. VonGermann depicts the cap being worn circa 1766 by a British soldier at Michilimackinac. Two decades earlier, celebrated English artist William Hogarth, wearing a Canada cap, captures himself in a self-portrait. From before the French and Indian War through the Revolutionary War the Canada cap is evident. It is said Benjamin Franklin himself donned one and wore it when he lived in Paris.
Another example can be seen in the Eastman Johnson painting Washington Crossing the Delaware (1851). Later, in the 1860s another celebrated artist, cartoonist Thomas Nast, established the look of “Santa Claus”. Santa may be the most popular wearer of the Canada cap (Koster, Grand Portage National Monument).


When the bottom fur band is pulled down the band forms earflaps with the fur next to the skin. Fox and raccoon were common, but coyote also makes a good fur band. Many times the cap had a fur “pom,” tassel, wool pompom, feather(s) or tail on top in the center. These are easy simple caps to make and The Book of Buckskinning II, the Manuel for Interpreting Lewis & Clark, and Beth Gilgun’s Tidings From The 18th Century all give details on how to make a Canadian Cap."

The original article is well cited and I feel serious research has happened here.
I shall see if I can convince the Company laundress to replicate one for me. I may have some difficulty with the sky blue tassle as they appear to be of the wieght and size of the tassle on an officer's sash. Let us see where I go with this.

Erik Simundson
Company C

[2nd Lt. Samuel Teague]

Boy that picture has a lot going on in it...camp shoes, leggings, this canada hat. What an awesome unit to impersonate. Just a thought, couldn't you order hawkin's zouave fezes and just flip them up? I have a 5th NY fez and the flipping process isn't difficult if you break your hat in. Just my two cents...

Matt Wood
Formerly of the 26th NC

[zouavecampaigner]

Erik,

one man's fez is another's Canadien cap? :tounge_sm

But seriously, we don't even have overwhelming documentation of the color of the hat and tassel, as, personally, I don't believe a tinted tintype is enough documentation to identify the proper colour of an item. Scarlet or even Madder Red items are seen tinted maroon in photographs, but that doesn't mean they were maroon, it just means that's what they were coloured that in an image.

Regards,
Shaun

[Erik]

Well the shape and construction of the hat seem to have been accepted as a traditional pattern, low crown, wool felt, turn up, braided or not braided, with a large tassel coming to the ear bottom or middle of the ear.
The color (whoops almost typed colour) seems to be the sticking point.
The reference to the Adrian Guards and mimicing Ellesworth's zouaves could be a good direction to pursue. If no other evidence is available it could come down to a best option.
The Adrian Guards wore a red cap, other companies copied Ellesworth zouaves, the 4th Michigan wore a low crown cap based upon a style familiar in Canada West and Michigan with a turn up, tassle of a different color than the cap, tinted tintypes show a red or dark red cap with a sky blue tassle and an approved vendor has expressed an interest in making one.
I would say that with out a reference in text or a credible artifact linked to the 4th as to color then you give it up or have a sample made and see how it looks and how it photographs.
It is regrettable that the soldiers of the time did not record pertinent details such "we were all issued Canada caps in dark red ( actually maroon) wool made with six/four pieces of cloth with a 3" band topped with a sky blue tassle that hung 1/2" above the ear lobe. Each cap was lined with natural colored linen which makes them cool in the summer heat. All the boys were proud to wear such distinctive cap and were saddened when Brigade Order number 6582 issued on July 30th, 1861 forbid the wearing of the Canada cap substituting the issue forage cap type 1."
They didn't. That is why these things after much searching and referencing are called impressions.
If we want the cap then somebody has to make a decision.
Just my 2.12 cents ( the dollar dropped ).
Erik Simundson

[lukegilly13]

To me, the first image I posted appears to have a seam up the middle on top.....but to me, his hat seems to be knitted. Other images however do not appear to have a seem. Could there of been both? Is there any reason to believe that these soldiers chose their headgear by personal preference of design?

[zouavecampaigner]

Erik,

somewhere there must be a letter referencing the colours of the hats, at least, or a QM report, I hope! Then again, they may just call them "caps" or even, as seen in some newspaper accounts of zouave uniforms, "zouave caps", which can refer to kepis or fez caps. We know that, earlier in the war, fezzes were issued as fatigue hats to numerous units in NY and MA, so I don't think it's a stretch to say that MI may have received them as well (like I mentioned previously, anytime an image of a fez-wearing soldier in a sack coat or state jacket is put up on eBay, they're listed as zouaves, when that's almost never the case). We'll just have to keep digging! This is enough to make me want to head back home to Detroit, just to swing by Adrian!

Also, were not most tuque's tassel-less? At least many Quebec milice ones from the F&I period were. They're more like a Phrygian or Liberty cap. When we did the War That Made America for PBS, the historians had us remove any tassels on them.

Regards,
Shaun

[zouavecampaigner]

To me, the first image I posted appears to have a seam up the middle on top.....but to me, his hat seems to be knitted. Other images however do not appear to have a seem. Could there of been both? Is there any reason to believe that these soldiers chose their headgear by personal preference of design?


Luke,
are you referring to the light "seam" running horizontally across the middle of the hat? I would say that's not a seam, but, instead, the trim on the bottom of the cap which was folded up for a better fit.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t250/shaunfalco/4thMIfez1.jpghttp://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t250/shaunfalco/manassas.jpg

Regards,
Shaun

[KathyBradford]

Shaun,

From that same great 4th Michigan picture, this is the guy on the right. Notice the seam that runs from the center top down toward his left eye. It follows Erik's description of the hat made from four wedges with a band.

http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w129/preservationparcels/sewing/seamoncapofCoDFourthMichiganInfantr.jpg

This is fascinating. I went through the 4th's Roster last night, and there are a bunch of my family's names in there. Thank you for this very good discussion and the documented examples.

[zouavecampaigner]

Kathy,

very interesting, but can we be sure that is, indeed, a seam, and not something from the photo's quality being misinterpreted? Also, Luke was referring to the first image he posted, which wasn't that one. I see what you're referring, too, however. If they were 4-panel construction, with 4 "V"'s, if you will, of material sewn together, might not there be more photos of guys wearing them that show the seams? I have a cap like that, made in red, with a red tassel, for a camp hat, and you can usually see at least 1 seam no matter how I wear it. I'll have to dig it out now, and try some pics at different angles now...

Regards,
Shaun

[KathyBradford]

Shaun,

You're right. It's hard to be sure of anything, but it has all the characteristics of a seam on sturdy wool felt. The shadow is perfect if that is a seam, and sturdy wool would bend exactly like that. The shape of the hat matches that of one with four sections, much like a mitre cap.

Depending upon the curvature of the sections, that type of cap can lay smoothly against one's head, or it can have bulges where the seams meet. The whole picture is posted on the Fourth's website here, and the owner has requested that it not be copied without his permission. Keep clicking on it, and it enlarges to a very visible size.

http://www.4thmichigan.com/images/Co._D_of_the_Fourth_Mich._Inf._on_picket_duty__cro pped_.jpg

The hat you showed in post #47 from the same picture has an interesting shadow across the front of the top. Instead of a gradual shadow that would indicate a smooth, contiguous piece of fabric, there seems to be a more abrupt change at the front of his head, much like a seam would cause.

From the same website, this picture from the Dale Niesen collection shows the shape of that type of hat with larger curves. See how it bulges at both "corners" of the front, but it has a flatter look down the front?

http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w129/preservationparcels/sewing/Canada_Hat_4th_Michigan.jpg

This type of 4-8 section hat was extremely common all the way back at least to the 1600's, with and without tassels, and it was sometimes called a "workman's cap." The beauty of these is that they could be sewn from all types of fabric rather than shaped and formed on a hat block, a more demanding and time-consuming process.

You're right that it's hard to see the seams on most of these. From the shapes and shadows that I've seen on all of these, though, none have been inconsistent with the sectioned form of construction.

The similarities are striking, and I hope this discussion draws more definitive answers and pictures.

[Erik]

Shuan,
You are quite correct as to the standard early French touque being without a tassle. The article that referenced the Canada Cap had a section on Touques showing many period illustrations some by Krieghoff. None show a tassle.
Back to the cap, I would love to see some QM returns but suspect these are state issue or even private purchase and probably did not survive to be reissued in Federal service. The mixture of issue forage caps supports that assumption.
There has got to be someone in Michigan familiar with searching state archives that can step up.

Erik Simundson

[Erik]

Michigan, nothing heard, over.

Erik Simundson

[Erik]

All,

Well here is the fly in the ointment.
As found in American Military Equipage, 1851-1872, Volume II State Forces, by Frederick P. Todd, ISBN 0-684-16862-6(v. 1) 1983.
Page 920, 4th regt
Initially issued state fatigue dress, some comps wore blue Canadian cap with blue tassle, full pants with russet leather gaiters;M1842 musket. 1861: some Enfield rifles issued. 1862-1864: Springfield rifled muskets; U.S. reg inf clothing.
Souces are quoted on page 922 and are predominately Michigan State Adjt General and MS military records held in Lansing.
Well, where do we go now?
Lord states in vol. 1 that the 4th Mich were raised as Zouaves, for what that is worth.

Erik Simundson.

[lukegilly13]

Luke,
are you referring to the light "seam" running horizontally across the middle of the hat? I would say that's not a seam, but, instead, the trim on the bottom of the cap which was folded up for a better fit.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t250/shaunfalco/4thMIfez1.jpghttp://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t250/shaunfalco/manassas.jpg

Regards,
Shaun

I was talkin about the seam that Kathy commented on (vertical from the very top down). The first picture was the large picture that she reposted. That particular hat to me seems to be of heavier knitted material.

[Erik]

Kathy,
Have you noted my post that quotes from American Military Equipage?
Is dark blue wool felt easier to get? (that is probably a really dumb question, if it was half the union reactors would be running around in their drawers)
If you can turn some why don't you take a crack at making a four panel, dark blue cap with the three inch turnup and sky blue tassle for me, size 7 1/4.

Erik simundson

[KathyBradford]

Is this the shape you had in mind, Erik? I don't have wool felt on hand, but this is made from wool flannel that I shrunk today. The tassel is Mrs. Lawson's hand spun, hand dyed indigo wool yarn. All input is welcome.

http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w129/preservationparcels/sewing/Michigancap-1.jpg

http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w129/preservationparcels/sewing/Michigancap2-1.jpg

http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w129/preservationparcels/sewing/Canada_Hat_4th_Michigan.jpg

[Erik]

You have hit the nail right on the head. Flannel doesn't
matter for the sample but it might be best to seek wool felt for any production.
Does the tassle have a bulb or finial at the top?
I don't care for the puffy look to the crown in the original as compared to the general shape of those in Brady's Camp pictures, but that may be a result of turning up the band.
Should we go to PM or email now that we are going of topic with the production of a sample?

Erik Simundson

[lukegilly13]

VERY good repro! I think you nailed it!

[recruiter4thmichigan]

looks pretty good so far the only thing i can see and say is that yes it needs to be made from felt and lined some way , the tassle needs to be just alittle longer and fuller with a bulb on top. But the sample does look pretty close

[Erik]

Steve,
I will fund this one sample for Co. C and get some black and whites.
Are you content with the references to date?

Erik

[KathyBradford]

Thank you for the input, gentlemen. The tassel does have a bulb that snugs right against the convergence of the seams. It's interesting that it's not visible in the two pictures. I reshaped the pattern to remove the extra room, and the next step is to find the correct wool felt. Most of the feltmakers add a percentage of rayon, but I've found two suppliers who have 100% wool. Their prices reflect the better materials, and they range from $5.95/yard for synthetic to $43/yard for 100% wool. I've requested sample swatches of the 100% wool, and the next question regards colors. If these are going to be for a group, do you have a concensus on color for the wool felt and for the tassels?

Getting closer,

[Erik]

Kathy,
As far as Company C 4th Mich is concerned, no other color than dark blue for the cap and sky blue for the tassle will be allowed to be worn as that matches the references and in retrospect the appearance of the period photographs. As the Captain, commanding, I will not allow any bands on the turnup until such color can be determined.
I understand the cost of the natural wool felt, but what does the cap require in yards, tassle and labor. In other words, as soon as possible, a unit cost.
I will take one as a camp hat.
The cost of quality cloth does not frighten me or the work to finish it.

Erik Simundson

[GreencoatCross]

Kathy,

Interesting experiment; I wonder if you could somehow keep costs down by "felting" craft or rug-hooking wool, such as the 100% virgin wool available through Woolrich. I have seen one mid-19th Century "fez" made from woven fabric finished this way. "Boiled" wool also comes to mind.

As for true wool felt at a good price and great width you should get samples from Central Shippee. You will want their "T2" style of 100% wool felt which, if memory serves, costs around $27 a yard and is 58" wide.

If you're making these interesting caps let me know; I'm currently living in Michigan and have been getting into pre-war and early-war state garb.

Take care,

[KathyBradford]

Brian,

Projects like this are a lot of fun. The process I used to treat the wool flannel was to scrub and agitate it in very hot water and then dry it. It felted quite a bit.

Central Shippee was one of the two sources for the 100% wool felt, and they've raised prices to $43/yard.

It's an interesting hat, and I'd like to make more of them. Did you have any specifics in mind? It's extremely warm, and that's a good quality for Michigan.

[GreencoatCross]

Kathy,

Wow, I had no idea Central Shippee raised their prices. I still want to make myself a seamless overcoat or two using their felt, I guess I'll have to save up some extra cash for the yardage!

The cap I'm interested in is the 4th Mich. style; dark blue body with a light or medium blue tassel. I can get some yarn and fabric to you if you'd like. The flannel I have is Woolrich's "rug hooking and craft" fabric so I think it should make up into a decent felt-like material. If you'd like, we can discuss this in emails. Mine is floatingeyeofdeath@netzero.net.

Thanks,

[zouavecampaigner]

Looks great, Kathy! I'd love to see some of the 4th MI boys get all kitted out a la the Brady photos for some wetplates with your help!

[Beaner]

Kathy,

The sample Canada Hat is excellent! As Steve stated tassle needs to be a little longer. Our hats would need to be medium maroon with skyblue tassles. We do have tintypes that show the hat to be maroon. In response to another question these hats were private purchase. Some of the hats were of a knit fashion. Possibly these were knitted by sweathearts at home. Kathy I am talking to the owner of the tintypes to see if he would be willing to send a copy of them. As a 4th Michigan Historian I have researched these hats since 2000. Several of us have had this discussion for many hour over the years.

Dave Prince

[pvt_jb]

It must be just me but I can not see the hat Kathy made :cry_smile.

Being born, raised, and living in Michigan I would love to see it and find out info on purchasing one too.

Thanks,

[KathyBradford]

Terre Lawson has graciously agreed to make more hand-spun, hand-dyed indigo yarn for tassels in the next three weeks. My understanding is that this is a once a year project, so we need to get a commitment from everyone who wants one from this year's run. Her yarn is beautiful, and it will be great to have tassels that match.

If anyone wants a cap with her yarn, please post here or send an email to PreservationParcels@hotmail.com I'll need to know

Name
maroon or dark blue wool felt
hat size (see chart below if unsure)

I'll post a running list of names to make sure nobody is left out.

Each one will be made with top quality 100% wool felt, lined with linen, and topped with an eleven inch-long, very full tassel. (The tassel will be longer and fuller than the picture.)

At this point, it looks like the price will be $65, postage paid, and from each cap, $16.25 will go to preservation. It seems only fitting that it would go to support a Michigan preservation project or a place that was meaningful to the 4th Michigan. I'm open to suggestions.

I'm going to post this separately, too, and if you know anyone who wants one of these but doesn't read this forum, please pass along the word.

Thanks to all who have been part of this process.

[LibertyHallVols]

It seems only fitting that it would go to support a Michigan preservation project or a place that was meaningful to the 4th Michigan. I'm open to suggestions.


Would Fort Wayne, Detroit be appropriate?

Thanks!

[pvt_jb]

It must have been my work computer. I can see them now.

John, you took the words from my mouth. The Historic Fort Wayne Coalition would be a wonderful place to make the donations too. We are currently working on several projects that could always use more funding. Such as reglazing the windows in the 1848 barracks or putting up a new casemate cover. Being a member and the webmaster I can assist with setting this up.
www.historicfortwaynecoalition.com
info@historicfortwaynecoalition.com

I also will put my name on the list for a hat.

Jeremy Bevard
Dark Blue Wool Felt
Size: 7-3/8

[KathyBradford]

Thanks, John. Chris Hubbard mentioned Ft. Wayne, as well. It looks like our own AC member Jeremy Bevard is the webmaster for their very nice site, http://www.historicfortwaynecoalition.com/

Their active coalition of several groups working to preserve the place gives it a promising future, and my personal fondness for star forts has me leaning that way, too.

Edited to add:
Thanks, Jeremy. We were posting at the same time, and you were faster.

[4th Michigan Historian]

Shaun,
While I was looking into Colonel E.E. Ellsworth's Zouaves as the underlying influence for the use of the "Canadian hat" or "fez" as headgear by some men of the Fourth Michigan, I was informed that Ellsworth and his men never wore them. Cursory investigation shows that they were outfitted with chasseur caps for the unit's duration. So with regard to the headgear of the Fourth, one cannot attribute the use of "fez" styled headgear to the "Ellsworth effect".

Respectfully,

George Wilkinson
Dexter, Mich.

"I am tuff A nuff to cross hell on a wooden bridge to whip a trator"
Private Newell White, Co. B, Fourth Michigan Infantry (Aug. 5th,1861 letter home)

[4th Michigan Historian]

Steve and Dave,
I would like to thank you both for your discretion (while at the same time recognizing the frustration) in being unable to share any of those images that you have referred to in your posts. I realize that by posting an image or so, the two of you might be able to convey a clearer picture of the hats design and colors, and proceed more rapidly towards having them made. And I will do so just as soon as I am able to post attachments to this thread.
While reading the other posts in this thread I started wondering...when using images from another web-site, shouldn't permission be asked and credit always be given? Just curious......

Respectfully,
George Wilkinson
Dexter, Michigan

[KathyBradford]

Updated information at http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/showthread.php?p=118572#post118572

[pvt_jb]

Heres my question. Blue or maroon? I asked for blue based on the research that Erik found in the American Military Equipage.

I know that Steve and Dave are using the colored tintype for the maroon choice.

Any other items to consider before I make my final answer?

[LibertyHallVols]

Yeah, I'm stewing over this question, as well. I'm interested in learning more about color choice and how folks arrived at a decision. I've seen a lot of discussion about hand-tinting on tintypes to support the dark red. What about the blue?

Thanks!

[pvt_jb]

Looking at the photos provided (especially the one that is first posted) it appears the cap is the same shade of black/gray as the coats. Does this mean the cap is dark blue? I don’t know.

I was talking with Will Eichler this morning and he had a good idea. What if we took a period photo of a color wheel? We can then compare this period photo of the color wheel to the period photos of the caps. This may then tell us if it was red/maroon or blue.

Here are the questions for that.
Are the photos posted glass or tin (if this would affect the results)? Does anyone already have a color wheel shot in period photography by chance? Will thought he knew where he could go to get this done but not sure on the length of time it would take.

[KathyBradford]

Ashley Middleton (Diochra here) had posted a color wheel with comparative shades from historic photographic methods a while back. Unfortunately, I can't find it here any more. I've sent a PM requesting that she might make it available, if possible. It would be yet another piece of the puzzle.

Thanks for continuing to pursue the right answers.

[pvt_jb]

I found this thread: http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/showthread.php?t=443&highlight=Diochra

But the link provided in the post no longer works.:cry_smile

Perhaps someone has it somewhere else.....

[pvt_jb]

I found another interesting image with what appears to be the same style hat in a different Michigan regiment. It is of Peter and Alexander Dibean of the 5th Michigan, Co D in 1861. A link to the photo is below. Again, it appears that the hat is the same color as the coat. Perhaps this hat will work for multiple Michigan (at least earlier war) impressions. I also love the “Michigan Sack Coats” they are wearing but that is for another thread.

http://www.michiganinthewar.org/photos/peter.htm

[Beaner]

Folks,
I have just to talked the individual who owns the images and he has give permission for them to be published for historical reference only on the 4th Michigan Website as well as the Wolcott Mill Event site. They are maroon and not blue. The preference for Wolcott Mill is Maroon. There is an addtional photo in the Hecker collection at the Monroe Historical Museum. This is also Maroon. I feel if we are going to recreate these hats they need to be the correct color. Once these pictures are on the website they can't be reproduced without permission of the owner. Kathy I will be sending you copies of the photos so you can reproduce the hat. He has asked that we do not reproduce these photos. Please honor his wish. This is a very important reveal and must be respected as such.

Dave Prince

[pvt_jb]

The preference for Wolcott Mill is Maroon.

The uniform regs for Wolcott Mill did list dark blue as an option but I see that has been changed now.

I feel if we are going to recreate these hats they need to be the correct color.

I know we all agree on this fact.

I know I asked for a blue hat but I am rethinking this but have not made up my mind quite yet. Still hoping for more info. However, unless something big comes to light I will most likly change to maroon to match the majority...when in Rome:sarcastic.

I can't wait to see that colored tintype.

[KathyBradford]

Dave,

Thank you for sending the pictures. The colored one convincingly shows a maroon cap with a tassel in nearly the same blue as his trowsers. The shape of the cap on the right side confirms the seams from earlier discussion. It bulges ever-so-slightly at just the right place. We're on the right track.

It was very generous of the owner to share these great pictures. They won't go any further.

Thank you.

[KathyBradford]

Sometimes gold is hidden in plain sight. Here is yet another of Virginia Mescher's great articles, and it has many comparisons of fabrics photographed in modern color, wetplate, and black and white. Examples start on page 10.
http://www.vintagevolumes.com/photo_article.pdf

Also, Ashley Middleton's color wheel comparisons are here.
http://sewingbird.1skinnygirl.com/gallery/colorwheel.htm

Just a little more fuel for the fire.

[pvt_jb]

Kathy,
This is outstanding information Kathy! Thanks for finding it and thanks to those who did the research and writing.

I immediately noticed in Virginia Mescher’s article and Ashley Middleton's the reds photographed darker then the blues.

Dave,
Are those pictures on the Wolcott or 4th's site?

Thanks!!

Because of threads and info like this it makes the subscription worth every penny. I LOVE the AC!

[Beaner]

They will be posted this weekend on both sites.

Event site is: http://www.fourthtexas.com. Click on the Skirmish at the Mill or Wolcott Mill link

the 4th Link is: http://www.4thmichigan.com

We we also be adding addtional eye whitness accounts and letters on these sites.

Dave Prince

[zouavecampaigner]

Shaun,
While I was looking into Colonel E.E. Ellsworth's Zouaves as the underlying influence for the use of the "Canadian hat" or "fez" as headgear by some men of the Fourth Michigan, I was informed that Ellsworth and his men never wore them. Cursory investigation shows that they were outfitted with chasseur caps for the unit's duration. So with regard to the headgear of the Fourth, one cannot attribute the use of "fez" styled headgear to the "Ellsworth effect".

Respectfully,

George Wilkinson
Dexter, Mich.

"I am tuff A nuff to cross hell on a wooden bridge to whip a trator"
Private Newell White, Co. B, Fourth Michigan Infantry (Aug. 5th,1861 letter home)

George,

the 11th NY Fire Zouaves wore red fezzes with a blue tassel, as well as blue fezzes with a blue tassel.

Regards,
Shaun

[4th Michigan Historian]

Shaun,
Thanks... I stand corrected (with specific regard to the 11th N.Y.). I should have been more specific. I was actually referring to Ellsworth's Chicago Zouave Cadets, as they would have been the most likely candidate to influence the Michigan men (and the powers to be) with their tour through the Michigan area (as well as other states) in 1860. But as you and I know the Chicago cadets wore a French influenced Chasseur kepi in red with the exception of Ellsworth and possibly a couple of other officers who wore blue. But in all honesty, I don't believe that the 11th N.Y. Fire Zouaves (even in their more "honest" Zouave attire) deserve the credit for influencing the Fourth Michigan Infantry's headgear choice. But you might feel otherwise and I would welcome your views
Respectfully,

George Wilkinson
Dexter, Mich.

"I am tuff A nuff to cross hell on a wooden bridge to whip a trator"
Private Newell White, Co. B, Fourth Michigan Infantry (Aug. 5th,1861 letter home)

[recruiter4thmichigan]

As far as the preservation donation , yes it could go to a good cause of the Historic Fort wayne, but what about donating it to something that should be close to everyones heart, The Tomb of the Unknown Soldier. I being a veteran would love to see this tomb saved and not replaced. Just a thought !

[zouavecampaigner]

Dave and others,

do you have any first-hand accounts of the uniforms of the 4th Michigan? Did anyone ever give descriptions of the colours of the caps and tassels at all?

Regards,
Shaun

[Beaner]

Picture update.

I've posted a 6th plate color photo on the Wolcott event site. I haven't been able to format the others. Once they are formatted I will post the link.
Dave Prince

[pvt_jb]

Here is the link. The pic is about a third of the way down.


http://www.fourthtexas.com/federal_orders.htm

[4th Michigan Historian]

Shaun and others,
For ten years I have been collecting original period items of the Fourth Michigan Infantry and have been avidly researching the regimant as well. But after all that time I have yet to see the Canadian hat mentioned specifically in any source at all, either from the items in my personal collection or elsewhere. I have over one hundred original letters as well as three diaries in my collection, and at least three times that number in digital copies from various museums, libraries, and family or private collections. And yet not once have I seen the hat directly referred to. I have seen a couple of possible indirect references but no description was given there either. Other than possibly the National Archives in Washington D.C., I believe that I have the largest digital image collection of the men from the Fourth Michigan. But in all of those images, I have never seen a single example where blue is used where tinting a Canadian Hat has been done. If it's out there, I would certainly like to know about it. But I will say that the only images that I have seen where the Canadian hat has been tinted have all been in a maroon with a medium blue tassle.
I am currently the new web-host of 4thmichigan.com and I am considering posting about forty different Canadian hat images based on some of those digital images that I mentioned. However I am concerned that copies would be made from those images on the site (once they are posted), without the courtesy of permission being asked and the proper credit being given, and will have to consider that first. I hate to have to watermark those images for the sake of those that don't follow website protocol in obtaining their copies. Any suggestions?
By the way, how about a good suggestion for a preservation cause that would be near and dear to the men of the Fourth Michigan Infantry? Try saving the battlefield of Shepherdstown Ford. Check out these sites for more information..... www.shafonline.org or www.battleofshepherdstown.org.


Respectfully,
George Wilkinson
Dexter, Michigan

"I am tuff A nuff to cross hell on a wooden bridge to whip a trator"
Private Newell White, Co. B, Fourth Michigan Infantry (Aug. 5th,1861 letter home)

[zouavecampaigner]

George,
I would just watermark them. That's what I've done in the past on my site, and the owners of the images thought it was best.

Interesting that no first hand accounts have been discovered (yet) of something so near-and-dear to the men's hearts. They're out there...somewhere! I wish I was still in MI so that I could hit up various archives and museums.

Regards,
Shaun

[pvt_jb]

Hi George,

If you are concerned about the images just put a watermark on them. We had to watermark a few photos that are on the Historic Fort Wayne Coalition website because they are owned by the Detroit Historical Museum. They are done in a way that I do not feel it detracts from the photo at all. If you want to see them a link is below (the watermarked ones are further down the page).

http://historicfortwaynecoalition.com/Gallery%20Pages/historical.html

[4th Michigan Historian]

Just some thoughts regarding my image posted at :

www.fourthtexas.com/federal_orders.htm

The tinting of a photograph by a photographer and or his "artist" was done to emphasize the life-like portrayal of the sitter, in this case a soldier from the Fourth Michigan Infantry. The addition of color would transfer a grayscale portrait into a more realistic composition of the scene / and or sitter captured by the camera's lens. So with that in mind, when color was added, the artist was not at liberty to turn a blue uniform green, or gray hair black, or more specifically a blue hat maroon. The photographer's work would obviously be subject to approval by the sitter and so he was working within the parameters that would honestly portray, and thus please, the customer (soldier) with the colors that were available for him to use. This was especiually so with regard to the addition of color, since the soldier incurred an additional expense for that choice. So tinting a soldier's blue cap into a maroon cap would most likely leave the photographer stuck with the customer's unwanted image!

Continuing in thought..... A northern photographer who's typical customer was a Union soldier, would have relied on blue and gold as the most common colors to use by him (or his artist), with probably red and green to follow. I say that since most of his customers were wearing State and Federal issued uniforms of blue. The gold paint would be required to tint the brass buttons, regimental and company devices, branch of service insignias, as well as belt plates, epaulettes, etc. So I wonder if blue was indeed the most common color used by the photographer's artist, why have I never noticed a single blue tinted fez in the dozen's of "Canadian hat" images that I've seen? And I do not exaggerate when I say that I have seen at least seventy "Canadian hat" images and at least fifteen of those were enhanced in color by the photographer or his artist. Even in those images that I have seen that were identifeid to regiments other than the Fourth Michigan Infantry, red or maroon was the dominant color choice.

So in summary, I believe that unless a period document, letter, diary, etc. is located that spells out the use of a blue cap with a blue tassle, we are speculating that a blue hat with blue tassles was the description of the headgear worn by some of the men of the Fourth Michigan Infantry. And if we rely on the shading in a grayscale ( or even sepia) image to determine that the cap was blue as well as the tassles, we are speculating much more . I find a great deal less speclation in a digitally scrutinized view of period tinted images with reasonable provenance ( identifying them as a soldiers from the Fourth Michigan Infantry) which reveals a maroon body and medium blue tassles.

Author and fellow Fourth Michigan enthusiast, Marty Berterra and I have both agreed with a 90% certainty that the regiment wore Canadian hats, or fezs if you prefer, with a maroon body and blue tassles. But of course the opinions and research of others would be welcome with respect to the blue/ blue color scheme.

Respectfully,
George Wilkinson
Dexter, Michigan

"I am tuff A nuff to cross hell on a wooden bridge to whip a trator"
Private Newell White, Co. B, Fourth Michigan Infantry (Aug. 5th,1861 letter home)

[zouavecampaigner]

George,

great tinted image! I read your post above, and totally get what you're saying.
However, I see from the posted image that the light-blue trowsers were tinted, and some colour added to the cheeks. The cap and coat, however, were not tinted, nor was the tassel. If the tassel was, indeed, sky blue, would not it be safe to say that, as the trowsers were tinted that colour, the tassel would have been tinted as well?

Again, I only have your wonderful posted image to go off of, but the cap and sack coat are of the same shade in that image. That, of course, does not mean they're the same colour, but it makes one pause to wonder.

Also, as I stated before, a red fez with blue tassel was a widely issued fatigue hat in the early-mid war ear to men of the Union army. As someone who's worn his fair share of fezzes, they get to be all shapes from wear and weather, especially the ones that are made from a "floppier" wool felt, rather than the stiff wool used by some of the sutlers/vendors for reenactors.

Regards,
Shaun Grenan
Gettysburg, PA

[4th Michigan Historian]

Shaun,
Unfortunately I can not post a more "accurate" representation of the scanned image that we are discussing. I don't want it to appear as if I am enhancing the image in any way, so I have avoided using my Photoshop CS3 program to do anything but scan and brighten the photograph. The second (and enlarged photgraph) that is seen below the "seated view" image does reveal some of the color, but even it is still short of an exact representaion.

But if I could upload a more honest rendition of it, you would find that the tassles are indeed tinted a light blue and the hat is a shade of soft maroon (which was done by applying the same rose colored tint used on the cheeks). I wish that you could see the actual image so that you could understand the difficulty in sharing the image's color.

But I have shown it to a few individuals (some of whom are on the "Maroon hat" buyers list) and apparently all of them seem to have agreed with the description.


I understand that this is still insufficient evidence for some readers though and welcome further questions and comments.

Shaun... if you will send me your email address, I will send you a couple of hat comparison photos that may shed some light on the hat's stiffness.

Respectfully,
George Wilkinson
Dexter, Michigan

"I am tuff A nuff to cross hell on a wooden bridge to whip a trator"
Private Newell White, Co. B, Fourth Michigan Infantry (Aug. 5th,1861 letter home)

[claynpendleton]

Here is a link to another image of a member of the 4th Michigan wearing such a hat:

http://www.ngb.army.mil/Images1/today/0602.jpg

-Clay Pendleton