"candle box"

[Dutchman Dick]

I have seen an item available from several sutlers, usually listed as a "candle box". It consists of a tin box which, when opened, allows a small candle holder to fold out. When closed, there appears to be enough room for one or more candles plus some matches. Is this an authentic item, or just the typical "sutler row" well-they-COULD-have-had-this-if-they-had-thought-of-it farb stuff?

Also, who sells a truly authentic match safe suitable for a knapsack?

[Andrew Kasmar]

Hi,

E.J. Thomas has a original for sale, but it is $75.00 . S&S Sutlery has some match safes for sale, and Ezra Barnhouse Goods also has match safes for sale.

[Dutchman Dick]

Hi,

E.J. Thomas has a original for sale, but it is $75.00 . S&S Sutlery has some match safes for sale, and Ezra Barnhouse Goods also has match safes for sale.

Thanks! Now, what about the "candle box"?

[Charles Heath]

Also, who sells a truly authentic match safe suitable for a knapsack?

Perhaps the larger question is why anyone would want a match safe the size of a knapsack. ;)

[P. M. Cunningham, Tinner]

Best I have ever been able to tell is that the item in question is a fantasy piece. I have asked both sutlers and manufacturers about the "candle box" and no one has ever been able to produce documentation on what the item is based upon.

There are several smaller orginal "candle boxes" that are documented to the period but these are only 2 1/2" x 1 1/2" x 1/2" roughly. They hold a single (small!) candle and matches. What the original terminology and use was I still have never run across.

Patrick Cunningham

[jhuether]

I have ran across a few examples of "candle boxes," however all of them have been made of wood. Most have had some sort of divided interior and in a larger range of sizes. I believe that I have a few photos somewhere, but am in the middle of a move, so don't have access to my computer.

Jason

[Mcouioui]

Best I have ever been able to tell is that the item in question is a fantasy piece. I have asked both sutlers and manufacturers about the "candle box" and no one has ever been able to produce documentation on what the item is based upon.

There are several smaller orginal "candle boxes" that are documented to the period but these are only 2 1/2" x 1 1/2" x 1/2" roughly. They hold a single (small!) candle and matches. What the original terminology and use was I still have never run across.

Patrick Cunningham


I totally agree with you!
Attention, I do not say that did not exist this candle box or support candles...
I say... Did the soldiers possess this type of equipment in their bag? I think that the answer is... NO!
Several reasons in that:
It is necessary to transport him.
It is expensive.
The people of period, live with the sun.
Camps at night, do not need a lighting, except camp fires to be alive maintained for morning and guard. (They are not Christmas trees one CW camp ;))
Etc.
And had they often candles and when they had it, had they it all? I think that there also the answer is... No!
It is "the floklore" for me as object...

[August77]

Perhaps the larger question is why anyone would want a match safe the size of a knapsack. ;)

Charles,
Maybe he is looking for a knapsack the size of a match safe, although easier to carry I'm pretty sure you will need to pack light (no pun intended)!!!! :tounge_sm

[Mcouioui]

Magnificent :) :) :)

[rogue]

Please check the attached photos. Is this the type of "candle box" the thread is referring to? This was carried by Captain Stephen V. Shipman of the 1st Wisconsin Cavalry. I obtained this in 1960 along with a number of other goodies from a dealer who bought them from Shipman's grand- daughter. It is made of metal and has a japanned finish. Original candle still in place, and a match in the match section. There is a partial label on the cover, but I cannot make out what it says. The grand-daughter was Swedish, so?
Steve Sullivan

[Andrew Kasmar]

Hi,

Very cool orginial. Thanks for posting the pictures.

[P. M. Cunningham, Tinner]

It is the type I was refering to in my post. Nice to see that one and have the history behind it. Been 10 or 15 years since that one was borrowed and loaned out to me :tounge_sm.

Patrick Cunningham

[Charles Heath]

That reminds me to ask Keith Bartsch about his candle lantern project from the pre-Reoccupation of Fort Sumter days. Keith was seeking industrial mica for the flameproof "glass," but I don't recall if the price scared him off, or the project was shelved for other reasons. Now that he has survived the Oklahoma Bar Exam, Keith has resurfaced. This is a good thing, and a great way to recycle lawyer jokes.

Seems to me nearly every time the knapsack matchsafe argument comes along the general consenus swings to these were postwar items and not acceptable for CW era events, but new data could have come along in the past year or so to refute this. Any thoughts? I'd be happy if someone would repop the wooden matchsafes, or just find a box of them sitting in a warehouse leftover from some 1950s domestic fish hook manufacturer. For clarification, please visit the Arabia.

[August77]

Dave Taylor had one for sale recently, similar to the one Mr. Sullivan posted. I believe it had an inkwell in it as well. I thought about buying it, but it was a little more than I wanted to spend. I have pictures somewhere and will post them when I find them.

[NoahBriggs]

Its accuracy may be up for grabs, but it does a great job of focusing light on that 2am suturing job on a 36-hours-in-a-day field hospital rotation. Sort of a "poor man's" dark lantern.

Mine is not like that Transformers-inspired original. :wink_smil Mine opens up book-style and out pops the holder in the center. There is enough room for a matchbox and spare half-burned candle.

[August77]

Seems to me nearly every time the knapsack matchsafe argument comes along the general consenus swings to these were postwar items and not acceptable for CW era events, but new data could have come along in the past year or so to refute this. Any thoughts?

I think a lot of that little stuff originally pictured in Lord's can be questionable as far as being "period", but I have yet to find anything concrete to definitely say the "knapsack matches" were around during the war or otherwise. It's probably best to leave them out of any war time impression for now. IMHO, I would bank on them being a post-war keepsake for veterans organizations. Certainly don't want to hijack this thread, but would be interested in other's thoughts as well.

[rogue]

Here I go, kidnapping again, but I could not resist.
Mr. Briggs and Mr. Heath both mentioned topics that recalled one of the goodies I picked up way back then that was identified to Captain Shipman. This is a neat folding candle lantern. No labels nor makers mark. Folds into a 4X4X1 inch piece of work. Painted black with embossed decorations.
Steve Sullivan

[August77]

Mr. Sullivan,
Now that is a nifty little item!!!

Attached are the images of the one Dave Taylor was selling. It may still be available for all I know.

[Charles Heath]

Certainly don't want to hijack this thread, but would be interested in other's thoughts as well.

Bill,

Check out the other half dozen threads on this subject, as the discussions may still be around, if they didn't get wiped out in the various forum crashes. Matches and matchsafes are one of those common subjects oft revisted, and the many threads about making repop matches are usually pretty darn good.

[Dutchman Dick]

Please check the attached photos. Is this the type of "candle box" the thread is referring to? This was carried by Captain Stephen V. Shipman of the 1st Wisconsin Cavalry. I obtained this in 1960 along with a number of other goodies from a dealer who bought them from Shipman's grand- daughter. It is made of metal and has a japaned finish. Original candle still in place, and a match in the match section. There is a partial label on the cover, but I cannot make out what it says. The grand-daughter was Swedish, so?
Steve Sullivan

Now THAT'S neat! Not exactly the same as the "sutler row" item I've seen, but the same concept.

Would you be willing to make some detailed dimensioned drawings and take some more photos? Looks like something I could probably duplicate myself, if I had that information.

[Charles Heath]

And had they often candles and when they had it, had they it all? I think that there also the answer is... No!

William,

Candles and lamp oils were definitely issued, and this incredibly useful website explains why in considerable detail:

http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/RS_OneDay.php

[Spinster]

That reminds me to ask Keith Bartsch about his candle lantern project from the pre-Reoccupation of Fort Sumter days. Keith was seeking industrial mica for the flameproof "glass," but I don't recall if the price scared him off, or the project was shelved for other reasons.

Shelved because we could not find mica in a large enough size--at the time, all we were seeing was little 3 x 3 inch squares, or thereabouts, all meant to fill some sort of peephole for ultra-efficent wood stoves.

Yes, its been four years since law school ate up Col. Bartsch, and those fine tin lanterns lined up in my kitchen STILL don't have any glass in them. Rather than actually get off my tookus and go get some glass cut to fit, I simply to pick events by the almanac, and only go to ones where the moon is more than half full.....

[Mcouioui]

William,

Candles and lamp oils were definitely issued, and this incredibly useful website explains why in considerable detail:

http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/RS_OneDay.php



Thank you for the link ;)
Otherwise, I repeat him, I do not say that it did not exist or was not used...
I just don't think that all the soldiers had him...
The officers, the hospitals, the intendance, etc. Yes, obviously, maybe...
But, the simple private in campaign, transported he a candle box, I do not think...
It is as many object in the hobby, on 20 lads if one or two have that on them yes, if 20 have him...

[JerseySkilletLicker]

Terre,
I remember Keith talking to me about them some years back...sure wish they had come to fruition when I was in business. I also carried Mr. Cunninghams little candle box, it was a thing of beauty like all his goods. I guess what I miss the most are the little items that would pass through my business only once, maybe twice and like an idiot I always thought about keeping one but never did.
Give my regards to Keith!

Joe

[Stonewall_Greyfox]

Thank you for the link ;)
Otherwise, I repeat him, I do not say that it did not exist or was not used...
I just don't think that all the soldiers had him...
The officers, the hospitals, the intendance, etc. Yes, obviously, maybe...
But, the simple private in campaign, transported he a candle box, I do not think...
It is as many object in the hobby, on 20 lads if one or two have that on them yes, if 20 have him...

I think you give soldiers of the period little credit for getting the things they "wanted"...throughout the war you had people procurring what they felt was "needed"...sometimes soldiers made due without...sometimes they adapted their kits to carry what was wanted...and many times soldiers disgarded or sent home the items which they felt weren't necessary on campaign.

Paul B.

[Dutchman Dick]

Its accuracy may be up for grabs, but it does a great job of focusing light on that 2am suturing job on a 36-hours-in-a-day field hospital rotation. Sort of a "poor man's" dark lantern.

Mine is not like that Transformers-inspired original. :wink_smil Mine opens up book-style and out pops the holder in the center. There is enough room for a matchbox and spare half-burned candle.

That's the one I was thinking about when I started this thread.

[Mcouioui]

I think you give soldiers of the period little credit for getting the things they "wanted"...throughout the war you had people procurring what they felt was "needed"...sometimes soldiers made due without...sometimes they adapted their kits to carry what was wanted...and many times soldiers disgarded or sent home the items which they felt weren't necessary on campaign.

Paul B.

Dear Paul

You are maybe right, I am too excessive in my comment …
I react more on the fact than often in the hobby, when somebody sees an equipment on a period photo or reads an information about this equipment in a book and when it uses this equipment in the hobby, everybody makes the same matter.
A little as for frying pans or boiler for example, on 20 persons in a mess, all the world does not have to have a frying pan, a boiler and it is the similar for candles and candle box.
I do not know if my bad English translates well my thought :(
Effectively the use of candle box, also depends so on period, of whom, of the family, necessary on campaign, etc. You are right …

Kind regards.

William

[ley74]

For those who have not seen it, Don Smith's friend who fashioned the 1858 canteen oil lantern is also nifty. Works like a charm (whale oil is tough though).

There is also a division, I believe, over what would have been carried and what would have been accumulated. The difference being the march verses a static camp. Lord knows, when caught on the march with what you have in your pockets and may have access to, the darndest things will work. Paul said it, the fieldcraft these boys developed is difficult to translate into the twenty-first century, with its i-phones and such.

Mrs. L - Shoot me an email if one of the "glass-less" laterns needs a home. You will be justly rewarded.

[AZReenactor]

Wha the!?! If it isn't accurate then you might as well be using a an electric lantern with a Xenon bulb. ;-)

Its accuracy may be up for grabs, but it does a great job of focusing light on that 2am suturing job on a 36-hours-in-a-day field hospital rotation. Sort of a "poor man's" dark lantern.

Mine is not like that Transformers-inspired original. :wink_smil Mine opens up book-style and out pops the holder in the center. There is enough room for a matchbox and spare half-burned candle.

[Dutchman Dick]

Now, this leads to another question: does anybody sell newly made, authentic Civil War-type matches, or are we pretty much stuck with strike anywhere Ohio Blue-Tips (which are becoming increasingly hard to find)?

[Andrew Kasmar]

Hi,

Now, this leads to another question: does anybody sell newly made, authentic Civil War-type matches, or are we pretty much stuck with strike anywhere Ohio Blue-Tips (which are becoming increasingly hard to find)?
__________________
Richard Knack


I have been looking for the same thing.

[Ross L. Lamoreaux]

I know that matches of those type are still being used today in Europe, mainly Germany. I've never ordered any, but have a few friends who get them sent to them from family in Germany. I guess you'd have to check around different German sources and then see who is willing to ship them overseas (not even sure the current legalities of such enterprise).

[Horace]

As it happens, I just ran across one of these lanterns online, for sale in used condition. I did a search and couldn't find any documentation or examples. I do some reading and writing by candlelight while in campaign scenarios, and the usefulness of a simple reflector/wind break came to mind pretty early on. It's a real challenge to read or write by just a candle stuck in the ground. I decided to buy the lantern, and later the same day this thread appeared.
Large numbers of campaign diaries exist. Do we think that all of them were written in the daytime? It seems to be a given that the same desire for a small, reflecting, fairly windproof device would have existed if all these diaries exist. If keeping a diary helped keep up your morale on campaign, a small device like this would not be any burden to keep with you on the march. A surgeon or clerk would definitely want something like it.
The repro device in question works on the same principle as the original that Steve Sullivan posted his pictures of. It's just less elaborate and about 2 inches higher.
The idea that an infantryman absolutely would not carry one is extreme. I don't think it falls into the category of 'useless haversack stuffer'. It ain't one of these foot high deals with an iron hook to hang from your wall tent.
I generally look for what I can get rid of rather than add to a campaign kit. An opportunity to read and write are about the only luxuries I bring to the field, which I think is true of many soldiers then. I weighed the novelty aspect versus the actual usefulness and decided to try using one.
Mr. Sullivan’s meticulous photos verify that this type of device was around.

Todd Bemis
1st Texas Infantry, Co. A

[ephraim_zook]

"Strike Anywhere" kitchen matches do not seem to be available in Penna or NJ. Who lives where they are still available? I have a bro & sis -in-law in Wyoming who are my supply source, but they can only bring them if they drive out east. Flying with them or shipping them is apparently taboo.

thanks

Ron Myzie

[Charles Heath]

Ron,

If you aren't able to find them in grocery stores, try a stove shop. The Diamond strike anywhere kitchen matches are in good supply still in NY, some parts of PA, and, as hard as it is to believe we can buy anything down here, this is one of the few items that can actually be purchased in MD.

For those who didn't read the matches thread the last few times around, see the matches thread.

[crabby]

For strike anywhere matches try Hardware stores too. That is where I get mine.

Crabby

[Dutchman Dick]

Here I go, kidnapping again, but I could not resist.
Mr. Briggs and Mr. Heath both mentioned topics that recalled one of the goodies I picked up way back then that was identified to Captain Shipman. This is a neat folding candle lantern. No labels nor makers mark. Folds into a 4X4X1 inch piece of work. Painted black with embossed decorations.
Steve Sullivan

You ought to see if Pat Cunningham could copy that one as well, considering the wonderful job he did copying the folding candle-holder/matchsafe combo!:D

[bazoo]

Hello
I've this one in a book antique tin and tole vare from MEGould .
But I think Yesyes is right 1 could be good , a lot is a mistake .
http://img396.imageshack.us/img396/3762/numriser0011we2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img396.imageshack.us/img396/numriser0011we2.jpg/1/w672.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img396/numriser0011we2.jpg/1/)
Bisous
Luc géraudie

[coffey]

I for one think some candle boxes could have been made out of cartridge box tins but im still researching so if any one know if thats true please let me know.