Bagpipes in the war

[East_TN_Rebel]

Were bagpipes used by either side during the war? If so, does anyone have any details on what units may have had them?

Thanks,

Don McLain
East_TN_Rebel
(Ancestors were in the 31st East Tennessee Regiment/39th Tennessee Mounted Infantry. CSA)

[markj]

Greetings,

The obvious possibilities would be any Scots-themed regiments raised during the war. One in particular is the 79th New York "Cameron Highlanders":

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Hills/6579/history.html

Another unit might be the 12th Illinois "First Scotch":

http://www.rootsweb.com/~ilcivilw/reg_html/012_reg.htm

Indeed, during my periodic newspaper searches I uncovered an interesting article discussing the presentation of a unique Scots-motif "Thistle" flag to the 12th Illinois in late 1861.

There were likely other such regiments but, from what I've seen, there are far more "Rebel bagpipers" today than there ever were during the war. Better to stay away from that stuff unless you can definitely prove it. You might also want to check such works as Wm. L. Burton's "Melting Pot Soldiers" and Ella Lonn's "Foreigners in the Confederacy" and "Foreigners in the Union Army and Navy." I would be particularly careful in using Burton's book--it's a reasonably good overview but some of his material (at least that dealing with ethnic German units) is either debatable or even wrong.

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[10TnVI]

Before someone else reacts more violently-
there are no documented instances of the bagpipes being used in the American Civil War by any unit, north or south. It just didn't happen. No unit was 'piped into battle' Not even the 79th. Period- A bagpiper at a CW battle reenactment/LH is about as period appropriate as a full suit of plate armor on a brigade commander-sure there were both plate armors and brigade commanders- but not ever together on a CW battlefield.

[markj]

Hi Leland,

>"there are no documented instances of the bagpipes being used in the >American Civil War by any unit, north or south. It just didn't happen."

And your documented evidence would be.....?

I'm not saying you're wrong, and I would even tend to agree that units were not "piped into battle," but to say that Scots-themed regiments didn't use bagpipes in, say, parades or at reviews seems to be a bit of a stretch. You'll have to come up with more convincing evidence than a flat assertion.

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[markj]

Greetings,

Here are two specific regimental bibliographies for the 79th NYVI and the 12th Illinois:

http://www.carlisle.army.mil/usamhi/Bibliographies/CivilWarUnitBibliographies/ny/inf/79inf.doc

http://www.carlisle.army.mil/usamhi/Bibliographies/CivilWarUnitBibliographies/il/inf/12inf.doc

These should provide additional details regarding possible use of bagpipes in Scots-themed regiments.

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[va-yank]

Too bad the archives aren't available yet. This issue was covered pretty thoroughly in a previous thread. Those earlier posts re the 79th NY provided details of their full dress parade before leaving for the front. They marched to a brass band supposedly.

My guess is that very few Americana at the time of the mid 19th century had ever heard a bag pipe, and virtually none had played on these shores. It would be interesting to ask what evidence there is to refute this. I am sure there must be some exception, and that information might be interesting in itself. Can anyone provide any accounts of bagpipes being played in the U.S. before or at anytime during the American Civil War?

Fred, please sign your posts with your full name. The auto-signature feature in the user profile is the best way to do this. mc

[ElizabethClark]

Go back to the Revolutionary War and the French & Indian war, and you'll find Highland (British) regiments complete with pipers. Several regiments were stationed here in the States (before they were the states)... including the 72nd Seaforth, and the 74th as well, if I recall my husband's books correctly. the 72nd had men stationed in Canada during the American Civil War as well... though none ever "invaded" southward.

It's important to remember that quite a lot of the Scots immigrants to the US just after 1745 were political prisoners, refugees, etc... and the Proscription Act covered them: owning or making tartan, wearing kilts, playing bagpipes, and several other culturally related activities were punishable--quite severely punishable.

While such activities were overlooked more often in America (how often is the King's man going to inspect the backwoods of Cape Fear??), pipes and other niceties aren't likely to be seen outside of heavily concentrated Scots areas of the US.

I seem to recall something about there having been a piper at the Alamo (which would be a good reason for the Mexicans to keep attacking, if he wasn't tuned properly in all that arrid land.)

So, yes, pipes had been used in war previous to the CW... but their use in the CW (for battle or "hanging around camp) is not supportable to my mind (and I adore pipes, married a piper.) I would expect to see their use at Scottish social club parties (like St. Andrew's Day balls), but not many other places.

From a practical standpoint, trying to haul pipes into battle conditions is like dressing a three-year-old in a snow suit in July. It's possible, but not pleasant for anyone.

[rebyank]

There were many scottish clubs and organisations in chicago before and during the civil war. these clubs probably would have had plenty of people who had and played pipes. This is the area where the 12th ILL. came from. The 12th's commanding officer, John Mac Arthur, was a member of the scottish cultural society, and was president of the Illinois St. Andrews Society shortly after the war. A good chunk of the men in the 12th ILL. had been part of the Chicago Highland Guard, a militia unit before the war that wore kilts and feather bonnets. So I think that there is a very good chance that somebody in the 12th Illinois had and played pipes at some point during the war. I can't say either way as to the 79th NY, because I know nothing much about them, but I've been researching the 12th for 3 years.

Ian Baker

[markj]

Greetings,

I found these 18th Century American newspaper references to bagpipers--they may be of some interest. It appears that even some blacks were handy with the instrument:

http://www.polisci.ucla.edu/faculty/boneill/runaway.txt

This article discusses the post-"Forty-five" Proscription Act:

"Rowland Berthoff. "Celtic Mist over the South." The Journal of Southern History, Vol. 52, No. 4. (Nov., 1986), pp. 523-546.

It indicates that the Proscription Act was never fully enforced or obeyed and proscriptions on Highland dress and bagpiping were effectively revoked in Scotland even before the end of the American Revolution.

I had enough time to look on the "Making of America" (U of MI site) and found the following interesting work incorporating a description of George Washington's Inaugural Parade in New York:

Author: Griswold, Rufus Wilmot, 1815-1857.
Title: The republican court; or, American society in the days of Washington. By Rufus Wilmot Griswold.
Publication date: 1856.

It indicates that "...the Highland Infantry [marched in the procession], in full Highland uniform, with bagpipes" (page 139).

The above, of course, doesn't necessarily prove anything in regards to Civil War-era piping. However, I would certainly invite you-uns to investigate the Cornell and U of MI "Making of America" sites further since I saw numerous potential "hits" dealing with antebellum and wartime use of bagpipes.

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[10TnVI]

Tough job- document a lack of period documentation?I thought it worked the other way around.
I have not found them mentioned in the OR's, any regimental or individual history or newspaper account I've read or in any secondary source I have perused.
As someone below said, this matter was heavily discussed in the past and hopefully the archives can be salvaged.
So- Mark- refute my statement if you can- find documention for the use of bagpipes by any unit on either side during the American Civil War- Accepting that they existed is a given and that some people knew how to play them is a given, prove their use in military units during the war-

No rancour felt or intended
Leland


Hi Leland,

>"there are no documented instances of the bagpipes being used in the >American Civil War by any unit, north or south. It just didn't happen."

And your documented evidence would be.....?

I'm not saying you're wrong, and I would even tend to agree that units were not "piped into battle," but to say that Scots-themed regiments didn't use bagpipes in, say, parades or at reviews seems to be a bit of a stretch. You'll have to come up with more convincing evidence than a flat assertion.

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[Yellowhammer]

I am only aware of one reference to a Civil War regiment using pipes. When the 79th NY paraded through NYC on their way to the "seat of war," they hired the services of the pipe band of a local Scottish club to play for them.

In 1862, regimental documents for the 79th refer to a band but all indications point to a standard Federal brass band. This group was disbanded later in the war.

Mr. Jaeger poses a much more interesting question dealing with reenacting philosophy. Does something have to be documented to be true? The obvious answer, is no. However, the safer answer, in matters of authenticity, is yes.

Personally, I think bagpipes at any Civil War event, Scottish regiment or no, are undocumentable and therefore shouldn't be allowed.

John Stillwagon

[Justin Runyon]

I have to agree with John on this one. We covered this last year and I posted extensively as the 79th was a particular are of research for me a few years ago. I have one of the few copies I know of of the complete regemental history published in the 1880's so let me say this...

At this time, Myself, or no one that I know of has ever uncovered a period reference to the pipes being used in american military units during the CW. Of particular bagpipe references I know of two things that may confuse some persons or may have led to the horrible bagpipe abundence.

1. It is a fact that the 79th NY was piped out of the city in May of 61 by the pipe band of the New York Caledonian society. This was a civilian "club" and did not follow them to the seat of the war, out of NY county, or even probably a few hundred yards beyond Broadway.

2. The regimental History makes one more reference to Bagpipes. I paraphrase. Some guy, unknown to any member of the unit, just showed up at some pint during the war with pipes and wearing the kilts along with his civilian clothing. So horrible was he apparently that he was run out of camp and never heard from again..

So in a nut shell, if documentation shows up, thats great, right now there just isnt any though.

[Yellowhammer]

"New York Caledonian society!"

Yes! I was racking my brain and couldn't remember that!

Thanks,

John Stillwagon
Moderator

[markj]

Hi Leland,

Well, obvious places to look for confirmation would be the New York and Chicago papers. Here at Purdue, we have complete wartime runs of the "Times," as well as the "Tribune," so I can probably look in them as time permits. Of course, there were many other New York sheets including the "Sun" and the "Tribune," not to mention Chicago dailies such as the Democratic "Times." I just wish we still had the searchable NY Times database: We got a trial subscription and it was fantastic--pulled up a lot of heretofore unknown items.

Again, I'm not per se doubting what you say; my concern was more about your extremely broad declaration that bagpipes were "never" used at any time or place. "Never," as we both know, is a dangerous word because a thesis based on "never" essentially collapses if one even finds a single period example contradicting it. Other than your reference to the "OR," I'm still hazy as to what primary and secondary sources you've perused. However, please note that I actually agree with you in noting that, by and large, bagpipes at modern day reenactments are as historically accurate as playing "Ashokan Farewell" at an "authentic ball."

I guess a satisfactory answer to this question also depends on how we define "unit." Should the wartime NYSM (aka National Guard, State of New York), for example, be counted? Although NGSNY regiments were not front-line regiments, they were activated for field duty at various points during the war.

Cordially,

Mark Jaeger

[hardtack1864]

What about Irish pipes? Just a thought.

[ley74]

Folks, my virtual ears are bleeding. Can we move along to more important issues?

How about that 4th ID?

[JustRob]

Kevin O'Bierne and I have answered this question several times over the years.

The 69th NYSM had a brass band at First Bull Run. They played several "Dan Tucker-ish" songs and the Star Spangled Banner. There are also references to "the songs Davis wrote" (i.e. A Nation Once Again & Battle Eve of the Brigade). There was never a reference to pipes.

The ONLY reference to Uillean (Irish) pipes in the Irish Brigade (69th, 88th, & 63rd NYSV, 29th/28th MA, 116th PA) is at a New Year's Eve party in December of 1861. The piper and his son were civilians hired by a group of officers for the party. They were not heard from again.

In my six years of researching the Irish Brigade, that one civilian piper is the only reference I have ever seen regarding pipes during the war.

[ElizabethClark]

Mr. Baker wrote: There were many scottish clubs and organisations in chicago before and during the civil war. these clubs probably would have had plenty of people who had and played pipes. (snip) So I think that there is a very good chance that somebody in the 12th Illinois had and played pipes at some point during the war.

While it's an interesting thought, from a practical standpoint, probably not.

Get 300 American Scots together. One or two may know the pipes well enough to play without killing anyone. Pipes are not exactly a "sit around the fire and toodle" sort of instrument. They're quirty, quarrelsome, and rather a pain in the tush to learn... more-so in a time when they weren't being mass-produced in Pakistan, and there weren't a lot of piping schools in the States.

It's also important to remember that being of Scots descent doesn't mean you necessarily have a piping tradition. There are entire districts where Highland pipes aren't going to be established. And even the Victorian fervor for the Ye Olde Romantic Highlande Tradition didn't make pipes pervasive.

So, while there may have been one or two who piped, it doesn't necessarily follow that they did so in a military context. And if they did, there's more than likely going to be some recorded mention of it. Until that documentation exists, especially for such a controversial activity, it's best not to assume.

[East_TN_Rebel]

Folks,

What can I say? My very first post in these forums and I get a reply explosion. This information is very good to find. I appreciate everyones input on this subject. It had been a question that I had pondered for some time, being of Scottish descent as well as Southern descent. I am just happy I have tapped into such a well read group of folks.

Thanks,

[markj]

Greetings,

Thanks for all the interesting comments. This entire discussion, of course, once again raises the issue as to how much of the ethnic press has been systematically examined. The short answer is, of course, "Not nearly as much as one might hope for." At the time of the Civil War, something like 300 newspapers of all kinds were publishing in Illinois. Of these, it appears that approximately two dozen papers operated in Chicago during the 1860's, with one or more having an Irish/Fenian slant, for example. I doubt more than a handful of these papers have been reviewed in depth--that's why I get a little concerned about making broad generalizations. For my part, I'm primarily interested in ethnic German regiments so it's frustrating to note that relatively little has been extracted and transcribed from the "Dutch" press. Indeed, Indianapolis IN alone had at least two German-language sheets in operation between 1861-65.

Frankly, I was surprised that "Melting Pot Soldiers" didn't bother to discuss the 12th "Scotch" Illinois while mentioning the ill-fated 65th IL. This raises the inevitable question about what else the author either overlooked or ignored in his book.

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[billwatson]

Erik wrote:

"Some guy, unknown to any member of the unit, just showed up at some pint during the war with pipes and wearing the kilts along with his civilian clothing. So horrible was he apparently that he was run out of camp and never heard from again.."


Hey, how about that? He's still doing it.....


Sorry, couldn't resist.

Bill Watson
Stroudsburg, Pa.

[va-yank]

Ok, agreed, there are references to Black Watch pipers playing at the Battle of New Orleans, etc etc. Its established that now and again, prior to the British departing for good, a REAL highland regiment in our portion of the continent used their pipes.

Were the pipes were heard among Americans in the intervening years? In some parlor in New York? Probably. At some Scottish Club? Sure. At Bull Run in the summer of 1861 or 1862?

[shubal]

"The regimental History makes one more reference to Bagpipes. I paraphrase. Some guy, unknown to any member of the unit, just showed up at some pint during the war with pipes and wearing the kilts along with his civilian clothing. So horrible was he apparently that he was run out of camp and never heard from again.."

You know Bill, this does create a precedent for a 'reenactment' of sorts.

Peter Koch

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo Kameraden!

The "Proscription Acts" were a series of "acts" first passed in 1746 by Lord Chancellor Hardwicke. The one in question is the Disarming Act which imposed severe penalties for not only carrying or possessing arms, but also for
wearing the "plaid," "kilt," or any tartan cloth garment (by males) from August 1747.
Pipes were prohibited as "an instrument of war."
Penalty for the first offense was six months' imprisonment, and "transportation" to the colonial plantations for seven years (later often changed to military service), or banishment and being forbidden to return.
It was renewed for seven years by Parliament a few months before King George II's death in 1760, but fell into desuetude, and finally repealed in 1782.

The Irish, or Uilleann, pipes are hard to play in a band- similar to Woody Allen- a cello player in a marching band in one of his movies having to constantly move his chair forward...

When it comes to pipes in the Civil War, to paraphrase Alistair Cooke, "As with Kent State years later, it was not what happened, but what people convinced themselves must have happened..."

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt
Clan McMillan Mess

[Yellowhammer]

Can I make a suggestion:

For all you CW reenactors who want to wear kilts and trews and tams and Glengarries, play bagpipes, and wear Brit accoutrements and packs (regardless of whether it's appropriate or not), have I got a unit for you! http://www.brigade.org/

This is the website of the Brigade of the American Revolution. From there, you can find reenactment groups who portray units who, UNLIKE CIVIL WAR UNITS, really did go to battle in kilts, trews, glengarry caps, and playing bagpipes. There's also F&I, War of 1812, or just Highland Games to go to. Hell, you can even come to Alexandria and march in the Scottish Christmas parade!

While I say this as a neighborly jest, PLEASE, this thread is farby as anything I've ever seen. Numerous intelligent people have posted again and again that there weren't any Scottish pipes used during the war so either deal with it, or do another war.

[Justin Runyon]

Here here John.

Beating a dead horse mess

[markj]

Greetings,

For whatever it's worth, in case it hasn't already been posted on the previous thread:

CHICAGO DAILY TRIBUNE, January 21, 1862, p. 4, c. 9

Pipers Wanted for the
Scotch Regiment.

Apply personally or by letter at 101 Washington street, Room No. 8
Daniel Cameron, Colonel Commanding.
Parties raising Companies or parts of Companies are requested to apply as above. Every facility will be extended, and liberal inducements offered to parties recruiting in the country. The Scotch Regiment will probably be the last accepted by the Government from Illinois.
****

Yours, &c.,

Mark Jaeger

[markj]

Greetings,

The last part of this ad is interesting although it doesn't deal, per se, with bagpiping:

MOBILE REGISTER AND ADVERTISER, September 29, 1861, p. 4, c. 4

Home Manufacture

Messrs. J. A. DeOrnellas & Co., South-west corner of Claiborne and Stone streets, manufacturers of Jewelry, &c., are prepared to make any kind of work, such as Military Companies may require, are ready to furnish any emblem that companies may wish to have made to represent their country.
They also manufacture all kinds of CHAINS, such as Gentlemen's Vest Chains, Ladies' Chatelaines, Armlets, Guard Chains, &c. Full setts [sic] of Cameos, Ear-rings and Pins. Also, Etruscan Work, Diamonds set as solitaires or in clusters, Enameled, Engraved, chased or plain; Hair mounted in any style.
Having secured the services of the only Die Cutter in the city, they are prepared to make anything required in that line, from Patterns or Drawings. They have already made the Thistle [badge] for the Mobile Scotch Guard, and are ready to make Stars for Companies, of any material required.
Orders left at Walter Pearce & Co's, corner of Dauphin and Water streets, will be promptly attended to.
****

The "Mobile Scotch Guard[s]" was officially designated Company I, 2nd "Magnolia" Alabama Infantry and served as such in 1861-1862.

http://www.archives.state.al.us/referenc/alamilor/mil_org.html
http://www.archives.state.al.us/referenc/reghist.html
http://www.tarleton.edu/~kjones/localal.html

Yours, &c., &c.,

Mark Jaeger

[hireddutchcutthroat]

I looked through the websites of a bunch of those revey war websites, and I think they were standing behind the SCA when they handed out authenticity guidlines. Is there such a thing as "hardcore" Revywar?

[Yellowhammer]

This thread is embarrasing.