Western English Army Cloth/Blue Gray Jackets?

[John "Red" Turner]

Gents,
Has anyone seen documentation of English Army Cloth/Blue Gray jackets (aside from Tait or Houston Depot jackets) used in the Western Theatre of operations. I tried to find some info using the threads but had no luck.

Thanks for your time and information.

Very Respectfully,
John Turner

[Hardtack Herring]

Well,

Longstreet Corps was wearing almost all Blue Grey Jackets at the Battle of Chickamauga.

[Andrew Kasmar]

Hi,

Besides for officers frock coats made out of English Army Cloth, Tait jackets, and the Houston Depot; I do not believe that the cloth was used in any other depot or contract. With exception to what Mr. Herring said about Longstreets men at Chickamauga, which were wearing Richmond Depot II jackets made out of English Army Cloth.

[OldKingCrow]

Longstreets men at Chickamauga, which were wearing Richmond Depot II jackets made out of English Army Cloth.


Can you support "Richmond Depot II" ?

I thought Les Jensen coined the term.

[Andrew Kasmar]

Hi,

From what I have read, it would seem that Longstreet's men were wearing Richmond Depot style jackets that did not have trim, as the early Richmond Depot jacket had. Although from my understanding, these jackets were not refered to as "Richmond Depot II", it is the best way to describe the jacket. Also, from what I have read the "Richmond Depot III", was not issued until the spring of 1864. Which make the "Richmond Depot II" the only logical jacket that these men were mainly wearing at this point. If there is evidence that would suggest that Longstreet's men were wearing a different style jacket, I would be very interested in learning about it.

[Secesh]

While Longstreet's men were wearing blue-gray jackets, to the best of my knowledge there is nothing to support that they were issued by the Richmond Depot. George Otott, who commanded our unit for many years and is a fountain of knowledge on the 1st Texas, claimed to have documentation for a thesis he was working on showing that the uniforms, or many of them, were actually a governmental purchase from North Carolina, who had an overabundance of surplus uniforms (approx. 90,000 still in warehouses by War's end). You seem to not realize that Longstreet's Corps made several stops on the way to Chickamauga, and may have been resupplied at any of those....There is also evidence to support, especially for the Trans-Miss (Texas), that some of the States were also contracting for the delivery of English goods to be run thru the blockade. If I am not mistaken, North Carolina was one of them...

[David Fox]

The Athens Depot...after the 1862 Kentucky campaign (took)... the wool...acquired in Kentucky...and (began) producing clothing from it" ("A Survey of Confederate Central Government Quartermaster Issue Jackets, Part I" by Leslie D. Jensen at pg. 162 of the "Journal of the Company of Military Historians", Vol. XLI, No. 4) who knows what cadet (blue-grey) grey cloth was policed-up by Bragg in Kentucky, which had made a start under Buckner to make it regulation for the Commonwealth's impressively numerous State Guard before and early in the war. Dave Fox

[OldKingCrow]

Tom great post.

Ever put any thought to "Script I's" being found in Western CS camps as result of originally being on NC produced garments ?

[Andrew Kasmar]

While Longstreet's men were wearing blue-gray jackets, to the best of my knowledge there is nothing to support that they were issued by the Richmond Depot. George Ottot, who commanded our unit for many years and is a fountain of knowledge on the 1st Texas, claimed to have documentation for a thesis he was working on showing that the uniforms, or many of them, were actually a governmental purchase from North Carolina, who had an overabundance of surplus uniforms (approx. 90,000 still in warehouses by War's end). You seem to not realize that Longstreet's Corps made several stops on the way to Chickamauga, and may have been resupplied at any of those along the way....There is also evidence to support, especially for the Trans-Miss (Texas), that some of the States were also contracting for the delivery of English goods to be run thru the blockade. If I am not mistaken, I believe North Carolina was one of them...

Hi,

Upon re-reading my first post, I made it sound like Houston Depot did not usually make the jackets out of the English Army Cloth. That is not what I was meaning by the post, and I have changed my original post to what I really was trying to say. North Carolina and Texas both imported the English Army Cloth for their troops, and there is lots of information on the fact that both North Carolina and Houston Depot made their jackets out of the English kesery. As for the Southern government buying up extra jackets from NC; I was unaware of this information, and would be interested in learning more about it. Thanks

[Secesh]

Thanks Chris! I appreciate it!

[Dan Wambaugh]

David,

I would hesitate to consider "cadet gray" cloth and English Army Cloth to be the same thing, and I feel it is very unlikely that, without documentation stating that the state of Kentucky was importing English Army Cloth before or during the war, and that it would have been there for Bragg to acquire during his campaign.

A few years back Jordan Ricketts showed me pictures of the original swatch cards used by the state of Kentucky for the purchasing of the materials for the equipping of their troops, and though my memory is a little fuzzy I believe that a material completely different from English Army Cloth was specified as their "cadet gray." Hopefully we can get Jordan to post on this thread as he has forgotten more about Western material culture than I could ever hope to learn!

At any rate, just stating that we should be careful not to confuse what is termed as "cadet gray" with the English Army Cloth that was imported by the central and state governments during the war.


Best,

[lukegilly13]

This is my understanding of Longstreet's move to the Western theater.
Longstreet begged Lee several times to be sent west and Lee would not accept it. In fact, Longstreet probably would not have been transfered had he not contacted Sec. of War James Seddon and then enforced his political pull with Senator Louis Wigfall to put a little pressure on President Davis. This was in September of '63. When the move finally did happen, it was just under 800 miles and Longstreet did so by the use of 15 or so railways. I believe the trip took just less than 1 month. As I recall, the life expectancy of a uniform in the field would be 3 months. Now, the question remains, when was the last time that Lee's army was supplied by the Richmond Depot during the Gettysburg Campaign? As Longstreet's chore did travel through the Carlinas in his journey to bail out Bragg.....what would make one think that he stopped to be resupplied? I think there is sufficient evidence to argue that lots of confederate soldiers in Gettysburg were wearing jackets believed to come from the Richmond Depot (at least meeting the description we all know of the RD....eppaulets, belt loops, etc). So, as it is true that Longstreet's men COULD of had access to the NC depot....we KNOW they had access to Richmond. Now, certainly the ANV was stretching their supply lines a little thin when on the PA campaign...but when was the last time we have evidence of the ANV drawing from the Richmond depot on this campaign? I'm afraid this information may have gone up in smoke.
To sum up my post...do we have hard evidence of how recently Longstreets men were supplied by the Richmond Depot before early September of '63? If so, do we have solid evidence of a resupply while making the move? If not, then we have no reason to believe they weren't still wearing the richmond uni's that we know they had at Gettysburg.
I'm sure it's out there somewhere....could someone post a description of Longstreet's men at Chickadusty?

[Andrew Kasmar]

Hi,

Here is a quote from one of Bragg's artillerymen:

"Our first impression was partly caused by the color of there uniforms (dark blue-grey jackets, light blue trousers).... the superior style of their equipment, in haversacks, canteens, and knapsacks. The contrast between them and General Bragg's motley, ragged troops was striking in the extreme!"

This is a quote from one of Kershaw's men:

"dark blue rounded jacket, closely fitting, with light blue trousers: closely resembled those worn by the enemy."


(The quotes are from Don Troiani's Civil War Infantry, and according to the book, the uniforms came from Richmond Depot.)

This leads me to believe that Longstreet's men had been equiped by some depot, either Richmond or North Carolina before going on this campaign. An interesting thing to note, is the fact that neither account talks about shoulder straps or belt loops, which are notable features of the Richmond Depot jacket.

[CSchneider]

While Longstreet's men were wearing blue-gray jackets, to the best of my knowledge there is nothing to support that they were issued by the Richmond Depot. . . . the uniforms, or many of them, were actually a governmental purchase from North Carolina . . .

Just to clear things up (and I apologize for getting off topic), but I do not believe that the uniforms Longstreet's two divisions were wearing at Chickamauga, Chattanooga, or Knoxville, were North Carolina products. I hear Longstreet and North Carolina uniforms tossed around once in a while, and I think the notion comes from a reference to a later issue. From Zeb Vance's own words, via Confederate Industry pages 97-98:

On January 2 following two months of unusually severe weather and with continued separation from military railroad transportation, the reports from east Tennessee became bleaker. Longstreet wrote that his command was, "in great distress for want of shoes and clothing, and in that way so much reduced that we cannot make other details and remain so near the enemy and live by foraging." (Ibid Jan. 2, '64) The beleaguered Tennessee commander soon forwarded a second requisition to outfit his cavalry arm of 6,000 men.
Jefferson Davis called on Lawton for a full report regarding this situation. The chief quartermaster denied any deficiencies in his department, explaining that the main problem was supplying Longstreet's corps was, "due to the fact that I had looked some little time back to supplying it from the depots in the State of Georgia" (Lawton to Davis Jan 7, '64) The Richmond depot was emptied by the fall requisitions of Lee's Army, especially in Ewell's corps and those of Samuel Jones in southwest Virginia. Also, he told Davis, there were major failures in foreign supply, for "the loss of one hundred thousand pairs of shoes and blankets off Wilmington since Sept. has left us in a sad condition in reference to these all important articles." (Lawton to J.E. Johnston Feb. 9, '64)
Lawton characterized Longstreet's second requisition as being "of a more extravagant character, and [one that] demands blankets, overcoats, shoes and entire suit of clothing for every man and officer in the corps." He argues, based on an interview with an officer from east Tennessee, that one-third of the requisition would "relieve the wants of the troops." (Lawton to Davis Jan. 7, '64) With empty warehouses Lawton scaled the cavalry request down by two-thirds and found English brogans and double blankets in quarantine at Wilmington to satisfy this minimal demand.
At this critical moment, North Carolina's Governor Zebulon Vance provided help in saving Longstreet's command by making a timely advance from state stores, a move that Lawton may have anticipated. As Vance wrote, "In the winter succeeding the battle of Chickamauga I sent to General Longstreet's corps 14,000 suits of clothing complete" (Dowd 490) Many of these were made in Salem by Francis Fries. This was the principal supply that Longstreet received during the trying east Tennessee campaign, although on December 12, '63, Lawton ordered Aurelius F. Cone, of the Clothing Depot, to forward to Knoxville 4,000 trousers, 3,000 field jackets, 4,000 pairs of shoes, and other supplies to refit an additional two regiments.

To the initial question, there is the Alfred May uniform, which is made of blue grey and royal blue kersey. Its ID'd to the Carolinas Campaign, so not really "Western," but involving the remnants of units that had been out there.

-Craig Schneider

[FloridaConscript]

Wash ives of the 4th Florida references recieving dark grey jackets with blue cuffs post Missionary ridge (Ives was 4th Fl). lee white also has some info suggesting some english army cloth came through mobile in october of 63 I believe.

Bryant Roberts/ likes Wash Ives

[Andrew Kasmar]

Hi,

That is all very interesting, Mr. Schneider, thanks for posting the information. For my part I believe the uniforms that were seen at the Battle of Chickamauga were the Richmond Depot. Just my 2 cents.

[Andrew Kasmar]

Wash ives of the 4th Florida references recieving dark grey jackets with blue cuffs post Missionary ridge (Ives was 4th Fl).

Hi,

From my understanding, the jacket that you are referring to was a dark grey wool jean jacket. Dan Wambaugh, makes a reproduction of this jacket, so you may want to ask him what information he has on it.

[Secesh]

According to J.B. Polley ( a member of Hood's Brigade), in his book "Hood's Texas Brigade", the Brigade stopped in Wilmington, N.C. for 2 days, where it changed trains for the firdt and only time on the trip to Bragg's Army. They also made one final stop in Atlanta before uniting with Bragg. Polley makes absolutely no mention of receiving uniforms prior to getting on the train. He does allude to the fact that their gear and clothing was worn and they had little in the way of rations...

[DougCooper]

Gents,
Has anyone seen documentation of English Army Cloth/Blue Gray jackets (aside from Tait or Houston Depot jackets) used in the Western Theatre of operations. I tried to find some info using the threads but had no luck.

Thanks for your time and information.

Very Respectfully,
John Turner

John - put in English Army Cloth in the search window - many, many threads come up, of which this is just one: http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3936&highlight=English+army+cloth

[LWhite64]

The idea that the uniforms were issued in NC came from Glenn Tucker in his Chickamauga: Bloody Battle In the West, but it was a guess. In his correspondence with the park he speculates that since NC made so much and since the Confederacy didnt have anything thats how Longstreets men got the new uniforms, remember that the book was written years ago and the Ragged Rebel myth was in full swing. But it didnt happen, Gov. Vance was night inclined toward Longstreet's men after they rioted in Raleigh on the way down, plus he was so tight with his clothing it took extraordinary persuastion to get him to let go of 14,000 during the winter of 63-64 for Longstreet's men who were then in dire need. I looked at the QM records of many of Longstreet's men and they were issued clothing BEFORE they left Virginia, so thats what I would go with.

Lee

[Secesh]

Gov. Vance did take State's Rights to the extreme....

[OldKingCrow]

So Longstreet's men supplied in Va, traveled across/down the Southern Seaboard, then rioted in a Southern metropolis all the while dressed in blue garments (in which hardened CS officers and soldiers later confused them as Federals) and there is no mention, no account, no newspaper clip of the Blue coated Rebs until they get to North Georgia ?

[LWhite64]

Well I dont think that Blue Grey clothing stood out along the eastern coast. A number of years ago, Dave Hunter of the North State Rifles wrote a good article on this very subject. Also to note, after the riot by Benning's men in Raleigh, they were getting Longstreet's men through the state as fast as they could.
As far as accounts go, other than Tucker's secondary account, where does it say that Longstreet's men got clothing in NC?

[Andrew Kasmar]

Lee WhiteWell I dont think that Blue Grey clothing stood out along the eastern coast.

Hi,

I totally agree, troops wearing English Army Cloth or other blue grey uniforms on the East Coast would not stand out.

[OldKingCrow]

I didn't claim they got them in NC.....I simply asked a poster who said they were RD2, how they support / know they are RD2's.

I was at the Chickamauga NMP ANV/AOT event. I am assuming the Longstreet troops there were accurate, research based, representations. They looked like Federals.

I now have learned from Mr. White blue jacketed / blue trousered CS troops where the norm on the eastern coast, so a train load pulling into town full of blue clad soldiers, who then rioted at one point would not have raised an eyebrow.

Please know I am not challenging or applying critical thinking to the word of Lee White.

[lukegilly13]

Should we move this thread? I think this is an excellent discussion about Longstreet's men....but the thread was concerned with Blue/Gray kersey in the west. Even if Longstreet's men were issued Richmonds in bgk or NC's in bgk...those are still eastern issues.....

Never mind...he said "used" in the west.`

I think we are overlooking something...in the east, the BGK was being compared to various shades of gray....the darker logwood or walnut dye and the lighter summac or natural blend jean, satinette, cassimere.....it looks very blue in contrast. However, when compared to federals, bgk doesn't look so blue. I agree with Mr. Rideout that a piledging group of fancy dressed confederates would raise an eyebrow...and I think it did. But who had a camera?

[Andrew Kasmar]

Hi,

Are there any images of either Longstreet's or for that matter any CS troops on the Chickamauga Campaign?

[lukegilly13]

Well yes Andrew there is. In fact, it's been debated on his forum...the problem is..the most famous one from the LOC is of prisoners....lot of sacks...few overcoats....give me a second and i'll post it.

http://lcweb2.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?ils:2:./temp/~pp_klDD::
LC-B811- 2654[P&P]
http://memory.loc.gov/service/pnp/cwpb/02100/02117t.gif

[Andrew Kasmar]

Hi,

Thanks for posting the picture.

[Secesh]

In Peter Cozzen's book "This Terrible Sound", he reprints a portion of an Ohian's diary, who comments on the men of Longstreet's Corp which they captured. The Ohioan states that up to that time they were accustomed to seeing Rebs in grey or butternut, non-descript "come as you may clothing". He said that it wasn't the blue grey color of their uniforms ( which at first glance, in his words, made them appear as Federals), but rather the uniformity of their clothing. Every man had a blue gray, short roundabout, sky blue trowsers, knapsacks, and kepis. To me, this does not sound like an issue from the Richmond Depot, but rather from a State. We know from existing examples that the so-called RD2 jackets came in a plethora of colors and materials, yet these men were all clad in the same. I have my doubts that Richmond would go to such trouble to make sure every man was identically outfitted. In "Letters to Amanda, the Letters of Marion Hill Fitzpatrick", Sgt. Hill Fitzpatrick writes to his wife that he drew a new uniform, but makes it clear that the men were being given different shades / colors. This is just several months after Chickamauga. However, I think that if a state, in this case N.C., is importing their own material from England, it's quite likely that a vast quantity of their uniforms are going to be cut from the same, showing much more uniformity. In fact, I do recall reading somewhere that of all Lee's men, the North Carolinian's were the best and most uniformally outfitted. J.B. Polley does not state why his Brigade stayed in Wilmington for 2 days, but it is possible that they were there to be outfitted for the Chickamauga Campaign. Reqs may have gone thru Richmond for these uniforms, but as I believe Les Jensen pointed out, it doesn't mean that the Richmond Depot necessarily filled the request. It would have been filled by the closest Depot / facility.

[Secesh]

Lastly, my g-g-g-grandfather fought at Chickamauga with the First Texas, and the dark, blue gray jacket he was wearing still survives and is in my personal possession. In the collar it clearly states "Made in North Carolina".

[Secesh]

Just kidding....

[Andrew Kasmar]

Lastly, my g-g-g-grandfather fought at Chickamauga with the First Texas, and the dark, blue gray jacket he was wearing still survives and is in my personal possession. In the collar it clearly states "Made in North Carolina".

Hi,

You got me all interested!!!!!!!!:D

[Dan Wambaugh]

Folks,

Getting a bit off topic here but looking closely at Luke's image (which, by the way, according to the LOC listing is from the summer of '64) I can't help but notice how much wrist is being exposed by the men's short jackets. This could be caused by a number of factors but the tightness of the jackets, especially on our "hero" on the left just screams to me poorly finished jeancloth. Having recently run a number of experiments with jeans I see a lot of similarity here, and who knows, perhaps the troops were in such dire need that the cloth went straight from the loom to the cutting table!

Just an interesting tidbit I thought.


Best,

Dan

[roundshot]

According to Simpson's "Hood's Texas Brigade" citing Joe Hoskin's "A Sketch of Hood's Texas Brigade," while at Fredericksburg in August 1863 "many of the soldiers were issued new uniforms from the Richmond depots and received shoes from England that had been run through the blockade." I have seen another Texas account that verifies receiving English clothing before departing for GA. This does not rule out the possibility that some of this may have been ready-made English uniforms, but the fact that the Richmond Depot received large quantities of BG Kersey in June makes the "Richmond" pattern by far the most likely style.

The original Joskins MS was privately owned by an individual in Austin, TX according to Simpson's note

[Secesh]

Well, perhaps, but again I must defer to J.B Polley's memoirs. He states that the Brigade took a month to reach Bragg's army, which means that they would have boarded trains in early to mid-August. There is an excellent chance, that being the case, they missed the re-outfitting that occurred for the rest of Lee's Army from the Richmond Depot, hence the need to re-outfit and re-equip in North Carolina. For every reason given for a Richmond Depot issue there is a valid one pointing to North Carolina. By the way...prior to stopping in Atlanta, Georgia, where they stayed overnight, the Brigade stopped in Wilmington, North Carolina for 2 days. Let us bear in mind that Wilmington was a major Atlantic Ocean port for the Confederacy( hmmm...blockade runners, warehouses, manufacturing...), a vital lifeline for the Confederacy to it's trading partners in Europe (especially England), was one of the last CS ports to fall to Federal forces, and according to the 1860 census was nearly the same size as Atlanta. It is also noted that it was important point of entry for munitions, clothing, and medical supplies from Europe. Wilmington would have been a logical place to re-equip a Brigade for a vigorous campaign...

[roundshot]

Polley may say a month, but according to Simpson's sources the Texas brigade did not depart Richmond until September 9th. There is also documentation that the Hampton Legion received their new B/G outfits prior to leaving Richmond as well. I'd say we are letting speculation outweigh actual first person documentation as far as when these uniforms were issued.

[Secesh]

J.B. Polley WAS first person...he served as a "High Private" in the 1st Texas Infantry....Also, not wanting to steal Hampton's thunder, but they were not a part of the Texas Brigade at this point of the War. They had been replaced by the 3rd Arkansas Infantry, under Col. Van Manning, the Brigade now being composed of the 1st, 4th, & 5th Texas Infantry Regiments, and the 3rd Arkansas Infantry. This would be the make-up of the Brigade until Appomattox.

[David Fox]

To back up this tread a tad, the oft-quoted statistic that North Carolina had 90,000 uniforms horded at war's end was again mooted. I've never swallowed this, Tar Heel that I am. I believe the source of this statistic is Union general Stoneman who claimed in reports to have distroyed this many uniforms in store, perhaps in Salisbury. Two things: who counted and, more important, in the four years of war, is there ANYTHING of his alleged accomplishments Stoneman didn't exaggerate on a heroic scale? I know in recent decades uniform buttons, attached to scorched cloth, from the Richmond warehouses burnt in 1865 have been circulated. Anyone familiar with like buttons from Stoneman's 1865 arson? Let's see: 90,000 jackets w/ a minimum of five buttons each...that would be at least 450,000 buttons.... Dave Fox

[Secesh]

Then again, what happened to all the additional uniforms sitting in CS depots / warehouses at War's end...? Surely the U.S. Government didn't torch all of them. Perhaps sitting in some long, lost corner of a Federal warehousing facility...???

[roundshot]

Secesh: I am well aware that the Hampton Legion was not associated with the Texas Brigade at this time. My only point in mentioning any of these sources (including the one in Simpson) is that they were in Longstreet's Corps and mention receiving their unique uniforms prior to leaving Richmond. I would admit that your Wilmington scenario makes sense, I just have seen no documentation of such issues taking place. It is possible also that some of the clothing issued from Richmond to Longstreet's men may have indeed come from Gov. Vance's bountiful stocks. Again, I just haven't seen any documentation of this other than Tucker.

[Secesh]

I agree with you. I simply make this arguement to point out that it erroneous to state that they were wearing untrimmed RD2 style jackets when there is a lack of hard evidnce to poit to such. The evidence I think is circumstantial and vague at best...

[OldKingCrow]

It is possible also that some of the clothing issued from Richmond to Longstreet's men may have indeed come from Gov. Vance's bountiful stocks.

Each CS state had, for lack of a better term, a "depot" location, in addition to many having hospitals in Richmond serving the needs of its soldiers.

Richmond newspapers, maps and city directories make ample reference to them. I have posted on them here. There were material shipments of all sorts from the respective CS States to these "State Depots". I have often wondered if uniform garments made thier way as well. My spidey senses tell me more than likely but I cant hook it up yet.

[Stonewall_Greyfox]

Lastly, my g-g-g-grandfather fought at Chickamauga with the First Texas, and the dark, blue gray jacket he was wearing still survives and is in my personal possession. In the collar it clearly states "Made in North Carolina".

WOW!!! This is very cool, for several reasons...any chance of getting a few pics of the jacket (especially of the tag)?

As your'e no doubt aware, labels of origin are...rare, especially when it comes to a large number of CS originated items.

Paul B.

[CSchneider]

Again, to get a few facts straight, Longstreet's guys did not leave Virginia in August, and it took nowhere near a month to arrive in Georgia. I can dig up some first person sources if need be, but with what I have on hand in front of me (Collier's old history of the 3rd Arkansas), the 3rd left Fredericksburg on September 8, reached Richmond on the 10th, and boarded trains on the 11th. I think if someone were to find an account of clothing being issued sometime prior to the second week of September (any dates on those issues Lee?) we can be pretty sure that the issue was not from N.C. It certainly wouldn't guarantee it was from Richmond, but it would make it much more likely.

And I don't think being issued matching clothing from Richmond would be unlikely. When thousands of yards of one particular cloth had just arrived, it seems likely that it would have been used and that a large issue would have included garments made from that cloth. For example, A.T. Barclay of the 4th Virginia wrote about the Stonewall Brigade receiving a large supply of kersey uniforms in late May 1863. I doubt he would have been so specific if Richmond had supplied a pile of garments of mixed materials. If guys had been issued clothing in a more piecemeal fashion, sure, then I can see there being a great variation in material.

-Craig Schneider

[Secesh]

Paul -
I said I was just kidding in my post following the one you paraphrased!

[NC5thCav]

Here are two quotes that I found a while back. Both concern NC uniform issues to AoT units. Neither of the sources back up the NC uniforms being made of bg kersey.

“North Carolina was a widely used jacket. As North Carolina troops saw action on both the eastern and western fronts. it is perhaps one of the only ones that may have been universally issued to both Armies. The jackets used by the Army of Tennessee were of jean cloth, with again the standard osnaburg lining, with a six-button front. It was similar to the Columbus, but slightly shorter in the body. The Army of Tennessee had these issued at Dalton, Georgia, in the winter of 1863/64, and again at Palmetto, Georgia, in September 1864."

"North Carolina maintained a private depot in Richmond where State troops were issued clothing from. As an illustration, the 4th North Carolina was issued on April 4th 1863, 2,000 jackets, 500 pairs of drawers, 635 shirts, 2,030 pairs of pants, 1,500 pairs of socks, 1,980 pairs of shoes and 100 caps, all in new condition. The regiment at this time numbered not more than 500 men. Considering the campaigning that the unit had in front of it that year, and the fact that most would have travelled light, it is a wonder what they would have done with all of these clothes. Longstreet's two divisions were said to have been issued with North Carolina uniforms of a dark grey blue kersey prior to their movement to Tennessee in September 1863. There is a myth, however, attached to this issue of 'blue' North Carolina jackets to Longstreet's troops. The belief is that these jackets were, firstly from North Carolina stocks, secondly, are made from 'English' cloth. It is true that some of Longstreet's Corps did wear clothing that appeared very dark blue. At Chickamauga in September 1863, soldiers from both armies made comment of this fact. Some western Confederates at first took them to be Federals, both from the colour, and the uniformity. Even Grant made comment of it owing to a chance meeting with one of Longstreet's soldiers at Chattanooga creek. The Confederate was wearing a jacket "of little different shade from our own uniform."

However, in looking to explain this one must examine the facts. North Carolina buttons have been found by relic hunters all over northern Georgia. North Carolina did have stocks of 'English Army cloth', imports had begun in June 1863 when the States blockade runner Advance had brought it in. Examples of jackets made from similarly imported cloth appear a dark blue-grey, very different to the usual Confederate grey. Confederate authorities also imported the same material during the same period. There is, however, no case for saying that any North Carolina depot jackets were made of 'army cloth.' Jackets made of similar fabrics that have been placed with North Carolina troops have been either attributed to the Peter Tait contract or Richmond depot. Surviving North Carolina depot jackets appear to have been made from jean cloth or satinette of grey and brown hues. It would seem that of the 100,000 uniforms on hand at the end of the war, much of these may have been the imported cloth. Longstreet did have an issue from the 10,000 North Carolina state uniforms 'loaned' to both himself and Johnson in February 1864. As there were none of that State's troops in Longstreet's divisions, a proportion must have gone to Johnson."

The above text was found at: http://www.acws.co.uk/archives/military/depots.htm

"According to my research 10,000 suits to the AOT in late 64'. 14,000 suits to Longstreet's Corp Spring 64'. and another 10,000 turned over to the Quartermaster for general distribution in late summer 1864."

The above is from from Cadet Gray and Butternut Brown by Tom Arliskas.

Below is a portion of a histroy of the 58th NC writen by Jeffrey Weaver. It describes the regiment at Chattanooga in October of '63 and mentions Longstreets men being supplied with NC clothing.

President Davis called on the Army of Tennessee quartered on the summit above Chattanooga on October 9, 1863 and inspected the soldiers. Davis rode along the entire line, in range of Union cannon at Chattanooga, below. Glenn Tucker, author of Chickamauga: Bloody Battle in the West, wrote in his chapter on Horseshoe Ridge that the 58th North Carolina, recruited from Northwest North Carolina and led by Colonel Palmer was reviewed by the generals. North Carolina Governor Vance had supplied Longstreet's corps with new gray uniforms, while the 58th was in rags and barefoot. The 58th had passed out of state and were orphaned and not given new uniforms. Kelly's Brigade was ordered not to cheer as Governor Vance and the dignitaries passed in review, so they took off their ragged caps and waved them to the generals, who were touched by the ges- ture.

http://members.aol.com/jweaver301/nc/58ncinf.htm#2

[FloridaConscript]

To go back to Ives:
The mostr widely known published accounts of his letters are a little off. The ones I had access to in the SCV camp in Jax Fl where I grew up were definately paraphrased. I had a buddy who had been to Tallahassee and read the originals. In the published version, it referenced jackets of light and dark grey cloth.... which lead folks to think dark jean. My buddy says it was more like issued dark jackets (kersey) and light jackets (jean) with blue collar and cuffs. it has been years since I looked at all that stuff. I'll be home in 2 weeks and I'll see what I can dig up.

Bryant Roberts/ florida civil war before it was cool

[lukegilly13]

Gentleman, I know I had read this before...but finally I found the source:
Page 67-68 of Cadet Gray and Butternut Brown.
"Uniform descriptions from Chickamauga, like Stones River, are unfortunately few, or yet undiscovered, but Longstreet's Coprs, just arrived from the Army of Northern Virginia, stood in sharp contrast to the soliders of the Army of Tennessee. Longstreet's men were issued new uniforms in Virginia, described as:
...dark blue round jacket....confederates resembled the enemy....
More importantly: on page 68
"Longstreet's Corps at Chickamauga, "We drew new uniforms as we passed through Richmond." We know that Longstreet's Corps was sent west in September 1863 to reinforce Braggs Army of Tennessee. They arrived by train wearing new Richmond Quartermaster Depot uniforms. Corporal Wm. A. Brown of Stanford's Mississippi Battery remembered on the morning of Sept. 19, 1863...............The jacket and cap color was described as "dark steel gray, the same color and fabric worn by the officers." Consensus among researchers is that these jackets and caps were made of imported English cloth of a darker blue-gray shade. By mid-Dec 1863, two months later, this uniform was reduced to rags. Longstreet's men had to wait another five months before a second issue of clothing came to them."

Sounds like they arrived in Richmond Depots of English Army Cloth....after 5-7 months, were replaced by something else.

[FloridaConscript]

From Soldering in the Army of Tennessee by Larry J Daniel page 11

from W A Brown's diary, one of Braggs cannoneers:
"OUr first impression was partly caused by the color of their uniform, but more by its uniformity, and the superior style of their equipments, in haversacks,canteens, and knapsacks. This contrast between them and Gen' Bragg's motley, ragged troops was striking in the extreme. If this command was a specimen of Lee's troops, they are certainly superior to the troops of the Army of Tennessee, IN DRESS."


interesting

Bryant Roberts

[Andrew Kasmar]

Washington Ives of the 4th Florida Infantry, noted on 21 October 1863: "Our regt is just drawing some excellent clothing; jackets of gray, blue cuffs..." A few days later, he described them in more detail: "...The coats are dark and light gray (mostly with blue collars and cuffs ...it is worsted cross between cassimere and jeans, very warm and disireable... "

This quote is from the A SURVEY OF
CONFEDERATE CENTRAL GOVERNMENT
QUARTERMASTER ISSUE JACKETS

by Leslie D. Jensen

Hi,

It says that the jacket's fabric was a like, and I quote, "it is worsted cross between cassimere and jeans". Which then would rule out kesery cloth I am pretty sure.

[roundshot]

These are quotes from the original Washington Ives Diary. You decide, but his entries do leave one with a different impression about these uniforms. Note he clearly says "jackets of kersey" below, while the pants are other stuff:

October 21st, 1863, "Our Regt. is just drawing some excellent clothing. Jackets of kearsy, blue cuffs, pants, worsted indescribible, shoes, caps, shirts, etc."

October 31st, 1863, "The army has just drawn comfortable winter clothing and blankets. The coats are dark and light gray (mostly with blue collars and cuffs) the pants light and dark gray, similar goods to the jackets, but what kind of goods it is, I never have seen or heard, (I don't know) or even a person who could tell what kind of goods it is except it is worsted, a cross between cashmere and jeans, very warm and durable."

November 1st. 1863, "The pants and jackets are of superior army goods. The caps and underclothing are miserable but that is not as bad as having poor pants, shoes, etc. Quantities of new English blankets have been issued, a single one is large enough to cover a double bed, and the texture is far superior to the blankets usually brought south with

[Andrew Kasmar]

Bob WilliamsThese are quotes from the original Washington Ives Diary. You decide, but his entries do leave one with a different impression about these uniforms. Note he clearly says "jackets of kersey" below, while the pants are other stuff:

October 21st, 1863, "Our Regt. is just drawing some excellent clothing. Jackets of kearsy, blue cuffs, pants, worsted indescribible, shoes, caps, shirts, etc."

October 31st, 1863, "The army has just drawn comfortable winter clothing and blankets. The coats are dark and light gray (mostly with blue collars and cuffs) the pants light and dark gray, similar goods to the jackets, but what kind of goods it is, I never have seen or heard, (I don't know) or even a person who could tell what kind of goods it is except it is worsted, a cross between cashmere and jeans, very warm and durable."

November 1st. 1863, "The pants and jackets are of superior army goods. The caps and underclothing are miserable but that is not as bad as having poor pants, shoes, etc. Quantities of new English blankets have been issued, a single one is large enough to cover a double bed, and the texture is far superior to the blankets usually brought south with

Hi,

Thanks for posting the whole quotes; I have never seen the whole thing before. His driscription of kesery is very interesting; I have worked with kesery, wool jean, and cassimere, and to me that would be a strange way to discribe the kesery cloth. Mr. Williams, do you know where I can find his whole dairy? Thanks

Andrew

[roundshot]

State of Florida Collection in State Archives at Tallahassee, I believe.

[FloridaConscript]

Andrew,
You can set an appt to view the originals. Or at least you could 10 years ago....


Bryant Roberts

[FloridaConscript]

I had forgotten he mentioned the English blankets. Have to keep my eye out.....


Bryant Roberts

[JStiles]

Some info to support issuance of clothes, etc from Richmond:

General Lee had, before we left Virginia, caused to be issued to us clothes and shoes. Frequently, Bragg's men proposed to exchange a "Bragg" jacket for a "Lee" jacket..."

RT Coles, Adjutant- 4th Alabama Infantry, Law's Brigade

Jerry Stiles

[floridawar]

Back to the west, it appears the majority of comments favors a nondescript, un-uniform appearance for western troops through the battle of Chickamauga. In that period I have always found intriguing the comment by Longstreet's staff officer G. Moxley Sorrell, made while describing the organization of Bragg's army compared to Lee's (memoirs of a confederate staff officer, p. 199)

"The personal appearance of Bragg's army was, of
course, matter of interest to us of Virginia. The
men were a fine-looking lot, strong, lean, long-limbed
fighters. The Western tunic was much worn by
both officers and men. It is an excellent garment,
and its use could be extended with much advantage."

I have assumed that the "western tunic" is a reference to homespun or state produced frock coats.

James Marshall
Tampa, FL

[roundshot]

By the term "western tunic," I have always suspected that Sorrel was referencing an oversmock or what is often styled as a "guerilla shirt" type garment, much like those associated with Quantrill's men or as seen in several photos of Missouri soldiery. Google the term "western tunic" now and you will see some current women's fashions in this style.

[floridawar]

Bob Wrote: " I have always suspected that Sorrel was referencing an oversmock or what is often styled as a "guerilla shirt" type garment, much like those associated with Quantrill's men or as seen in several photos of Missouri soldiery. Google the term "western tunic" now and you will see some current women's fashions in this style."

Aha, I could buy that, especially considering comments by Ives and others about the "nakedness" of Bragg's Army, as when Ives described the soldiers as one man, one hat, one shirt, one pr. pants and shoes, etc. prior to the battle. My earlier assumption was based on Sorrell's earlier comments about the regulation "tunic" vs. the popular frock coat for officers etc.

James "Archie" Marshall
Tampa, FL