fancy tobacco pouches

[jwoodli]

I was wondering how prevalent fancy (silk, embroidered, colorful, etc.) tobacco pouches would have been. I can't seem to find a good thread that has already addressed this topic. I have seen two nice originals at the Atlanta History Center, and they seem to have been unique and treasured pieces of "flare" for a soldier. Is there a period of the war where these would have been more common than at another time? Are there any good photos with soldiers in possession of a pouch? I kinda want to add one of these (not just a practical pouch, but a fancy one) to my impression, but am afraid of being branded a 'dandy'.
Thanks.
Dylan Woodliff

[Charles Heath]

Neal Sexton used to make some nice ones. Take the time to look him up, or seek out the nice do-it-yourself article. In addition to those two resources, Spiros had a few of the ugly rubber variety in his case at the shop a while back.

[Carolann Schmitt]

Mid-nineteenth century women's magazines frequently published patterns and directions for making tobacco bags, tobacco pouches, and similar items. I did an on-line search of the entire run of Godey's Lady's Book and was a bit surprised at the results. I found twelve different patterns for fancy tobacco bags, but all of them were in issues published after the war: July 1867, December 1868, September 1869, February 1870, November 1872, January 1875, May 1875, June 1876, March 1877, June 1879, January 1880 and March 1880.

I believe there was a pattern for a tobacco bag published in an issue of Peterson's Magazine from 1861 or 1864. I do not have online access to Peterson's and will have to look for that pattern manually.

I have not personally seen the examples in the Atlanta History Center. Are they documented to 1861-1865?

More research is needed, but the search of Godey's seems to indicate fancy tobacco pouches and bags were much more common in the post-war era than they were during the war years.

Regards,

[MarkTK36thIL]

Check the social groups for Smoke and Chew. I added some examples a little while back.

[jwoodli]

Interesting. Thanks for the responses. The pouches at the Atlanta History Center are represented as being sent to soldiers from home during the war, but I cannot verify the actual provenience of these pouches. One of them is embroidered with "Macon Light Artillery" I believe, and is of a four-panel design; the other is a two-panel design made of red bocade silk, has a crimped fringe, and both are about the size of two hands clasped together.
What about feelings of such a person being branded a 'dandy'?

[tenfed1861]

If you contact Kara Bartlet at Corner Clothiers,she may be able to help you.She does make "sweetheart" pouches that are pretty nice.She could help give you info.

[Ian McWherter]

What about feelings of such a person being branded a 'dandy'?

I'd say if you really want to add one of these pouches to your soldier impression and can find the supporting documentation (i.e. soldier's description, original example with soldier provenance) then go for it and don't let what others think bother you. Civilian men of the mid-19th C. wore and carried many items that today's uber man might find ridiculous. Heck, if one even goes so far as to take a little pride in his appearance, wear a cravat, polish his boots, put on a clean shirt, etc. (basically what my grandfather his father and so on, all blue collar working men, did everyday) at a reenactment everyone comes crawling out of the woodwork to call you a dandy.

Does anyone want to contribute some actual historical documentation to this thread, or do vendor recommendations suffice for the historic record? I'm interested in seeing actual historical descriptions and examples of soldier "fancy" pouches. If vendors want to contribute to this thread by discussing the original examples they copied and put a plug in for their goods, fine, at least we get some information. If nobody has anything to contribute, then we must turn to the now painful realm of book learning, my God:rolleyes:.

[VIrginia Mescher]

Mid-nineteenth century women's magazines frequently published patterns and directions for making tobacco bags, tobacco pouches, and similar items. I did an on-line search of the entire run of Godey's Lady's Book and was a bit surprised at the results. I found twelve different patterns for fancy tobacco bags, but all of them were in issues published after the war: July 1867, December 1868, September 1869, February 1870, November 1872, January 1875, May 1875, June 1876, March 1877, June 1879, January 1880 and March 1880.

I believe there was a pattern for a tobacco bag published in an issue of Peterson's Magazine from 1861 or 1864. I do not have online access to Peterson's and will have to look for that pattern manually.

I have not personally seen the examples in the Atlanta History Center. Are they documented to 1861-1865?

More research is needed, but the search of Godey's seems to indicate fancy tobacco pouches and bags were much more common in the post-war era than they were during the war years.

Regards,

I did a quick online search of Peterson's and other publications and found the following (Peterson's seemed to have great many tobacco users): Peterson's Sept. 1853 had the following quote in a pattern for a "ladies' work-bag." "We must observe that bags of the most ornamental descriptions are now greatly used by Parisian belles, for holding the handkerchief, purses, &c. They are very small, and are made in crochet, netting, or embroidery. We would not whisper the atrocity to even the winds, nevertheless it is a fact, that these same exquisite pieces of workmanship are the rage among gentlemen for tobacco-pouches. The only difference is, that the lady's reticule is lined with silk or satin, and the gentleman's blague with lamb-skin." [The pattern for the ladies' work-bag was rippled crocheted pattern in black, yellow and scarlet.]

Peterson's December 1858, a braided, lined tobacco pouch with metal clasp closure.

Peterson's November 1859, a "crochet tobacco-pouch, ornamented with flowers in relief." This one had many crocheted flowers around the pouch and tassels hanging off the sides and from the bottom.

Peterson's February 1862, "Tobacco pouch, braided in gold and red cloth." This one just had the outline of the pattern for the pouch and the braid pattern with no instructions.

Peterson's July 1862, "Tobacco bag." This pouch was made of Russian leather with a braided design of blue velvet and lined with white kid.

Peterson's March 1865, "Tobacco Bag." This bag was a rounded pouch made of velvet, silk, cloth, or cashmere and lined with leather. The pattern for each side was included as was the design for the embroidery which was done in beads. The seams were covered with braid.

Peterson's May 1866, Tobacco Bag." This was a crocheted bag don in blue, red or green, lined with chamois.

Peterson's July 1866, "Tobacco Pouch in braid and embroidery." There was only a pattern with no directions for this rounded pouch.

Peterson's December 1866, "Tobacco-pouch." This one was a four piece paneled pouch of cashmere or velvet with steel bead tassels. It was lined with leather.

Peterson's January 1867, "Turkish Tobacco-pouch." This one was a four paneled pouch style bag with colorful embroidery on each panel and joining the panels. It was made of colored cashmere and lined with white kid or chamois. The instructions started out stating, "Oriental designs are now all the rage in Paris and London. One sees them in carpets, rugs, shawls, everything." It continues to describe the difference between Persian and Turkish designs before the instructions begin.

Peterson's June 1867, "Oriental Tobacco Pouch in Chain Stitch." There was only a illustration of the design with no instructions. The design in the middle of the pouch had various kinds of pipes and styles of pouches embroidered and there was a chain stitch looped pattern along the edges of pouch. There were tassels on the sides and bottom.

Peterson's June 1867, "Tobacco Bag." This bag was done with velvet, cloth or silk and had a cardboard bottom but did not indicate a leather lining.

I'll stop giving the details for the pouches but there were additional patterns and instructions in the following issues of Peterson's. May 1869, June, 1869, Aug. 1869, May, 1870, October 1871, April 1885 (2 patterns), August 1885, August 18887, and February 1889. The online access ended there. Some of the patterns were simple but others were elaborate with embroidery, braid, tatting, or other needlework.

[PanzerJager]

I Know the SC relic room has several tobacco pouches that are attributed to civil war provenance although I have not seen them in person. On this web page, http://www.psrs-csa.com/thismonthsnewsletter.htm if you scroll down and search there used to be a photo of the pouches in the collection, which currently the link doesn’t seem to be working, perhaps some one who has seen the pouches or saved the photo could post for reference, the descriptions below are copied and pasted from the web address above:

Tobacco Pouches of SC Confederate Relic Room & Museum

Details – Tobacco Pouches of SC Confederate Relic Room & Museum
1). 2.10 or B2.15. museum number
date range – 1864
Height 5 ½"
Width 4 ¼"
Black cotton covering with black silk top section and interior, red piping trim along all 4 seams; multi-colored flower pattern embroidered along 2 sides (red, green, yellow, blue); blue and red dots embroidered on other 2 sides; drawstring appears to be made of twine
(I brought this one – it had the embroidered flowers)
2). 2.7.28.27.159
date range – 1861-1865
H – 4 ¾", 9" with tassels
W – 3 ½", 16 ¼" with tassels
Black silk outer covering, gold silk rope drawstrings with 2 gold tassels, 2 gold tassels attached at the bottom of the pouch, 4 overlapping hearts sewn along pouc’s lower half in grayish silk.
3). UNOC 504
date range – 1861-1865
H – 7 ½"
W – 4 ½"
Black silk; embroidered design and W. B. Williams; soft leather interior, piping (used to be red)
4). 1.11.75 or B3.3.15 De Treville
date range – 1861-1865
H- 5 ¼"
W – 5 ¾" at widest
Ribbon top, green outer silk; no side seam on outer edge; black velvet center; red embroidered drawstring

[jwoodli]

Thanks for all the responses. I sewed one up the other day trying to mimic one of the pouches at the Atlanta History Center (the red one in a photo on the Smoke and Chew social group).
Are there any good photos of these AND soldiers...?
Thanks.

[Drygoods]

[QUOTE=Ian McWherter;122822]Heck, if one even goes so far as to take a little pride in his appearance, wear a cravat, polish his boots, put on a clean shirt, etc. (basically what my grandfather his father and so on, all blue collar working men, did everyday) at a reenactment everyone comes crawling out of the woodwork to call you a dandy. QUOTE]

Ian, I think that you made a great statement but many forget the fact that today people choose to little like an unmade bed. The idea of the "grunge look" has been around for twenty years, and over that time none of us think twice at seeing a person with dirty hair, three days of uneven facial beard, torn jeans, and a wifebeater T-shirt, as though they just stepped off the set of COPS. Even in LH, you see folks unwilling to clean themselves up to look accurate. Tragically, our modern views bleed over into what we think accurate history. People who looked grungy then, or kept themselves in such a state, were either insane or the lowest of white-trash. I'm sure that these little statements might insult a few folks, but as Ian pointed out, people took pride in their appearance, often dressing to the best of their affordability, and even if you were poor, you at least brushed your hair and your suit. I dunno know why, this sense of low dressing seems to be a fashion among men. Consider if you saw a woman wearing dirty, torn clothing, uncombed locks, hairy armpits, and an unwashed face most people would say ewww what a s***k. Being clean doesn't make you a dandy, being clean makes you look responsible, educated, and employable. Ok, enough of my preaching, but I will say that men who use a colorful smoking pouch are likely to be more accurate with LH since they are willing to take the time to see to the small details of their impression....why, they might even own a proper oval hairbrush, and use a straight razor with ease! Why not use a silk tobbacco pouch? It's accurate.

Again, I'm sorry if I annoyed folks with my comments, but if you want to see a good looking couple, look at the McWherter's, and they ain't dandy's.

[M_Kupsch]

Mrs. Peebles,

I would totally agree with you if a person was doing a civilian impression, additionally depending on the scenario. But if that person is doing an impression of a soldier on hard, active campaign then I am sorry, but sprucing up and trying to look good was the last thing on a soldier's mind.

[PanzerJager]

Mrs. Peebles,

I would totally agree with you if a person was doing a civilian impression, additionally depending on the scenario. But if that person is doing an impression of a soldier on hard, active campaign then I am sorry, but sprucing up and trying to look good was the last thing on a soldier's mind.

This is getting a bit off topic but I wouldn’t say that is entirely true. While there are plenty accounts of being on active campaign the soldiers being filthy and grimy there are just as many accounts from letters and diaries of soldiers saying as soon they got the chance and while on campaign, they where changing and washing clothes, cleaning up and trying to get rid of the acquired dirt. Actually, I just read an account this afternoon in Not War But Murder by Ernest B. Furgurson that during the cold harbor, one of the officers on staff stated how it was in wonder, and I am paraphrasing here, but each day Hancock had on a clean white shirt of which no one knew where they came from. Granted he was a officer and had more means then an enlisted man but I just read it today and it related.

Regards,

[VIrginia Mescher]

I think we are all missing a major point. There is evidence of tobacco pouches or bags. We have originals and patterns. They did use tobacco and needed something to transport it in as not all tobacco was in plug form. It would be nice to have soldier's letter commenting on his tobacco pouch but how many men would have gone into go into detail about what the pouch looked like. If he had gotten one from home, he probably would have just thanked the sender but not described it.

As to whether or not a soldier would be carrying a fancy tobacco pouch, I really don't think that this is a matter of how much of a dandy a soldier was or how dirty a soldier would be on active campaign duty.

A tobacco pouch would be something that a wife, daughter, girlfriend or mother could have made him and sent it to him in a box or package from home. It was also something that could have been purchased at a fancy fair or fund raising fair. If it was sent from home, I would think that it would have been kept as a prized remembrance of loved ones and of how life used to be. No matter how rough the present was, something as small as a tobacco pouch was would be easy to tuck away in a pocket or pack. It was more than just something to hold tobacco; it was a piece of home that happened to hold tobacco. Yes, it might be "dandified" but it was love that went into the making of it.

I'm not saying that the pouch would stay in a pristine condition. Depending on when it was made and when it was received, by the end of the war, it might have shown wear and gotten dirty. If it had thread or bead tassels they might have come off and depending on the fabric used, it might even have gotten holes in it so that the kid or chamois lining would show. That is how a tobacco pouch might end up looking, not the one we would imagine seeing just after it was made.

There could be various ways to use a fancy tobacco pouch in an impression. If it is new, it could have just come from home. If the soldier wants to use it, the pouch will get naturally dirty, depending on how much it is used and become part of an impression. If the soldier does not use tobacco, the pouch will still experience some natural wear and tear just being in a pocket or pack. It won't stay in its new condition long.

[M_Kupsch]

Mrs. Mescher,

You are dead on. I have a really nice tobacco bag made by Kara Bartels. Well, it was really nice but over the years of taking it with me into the field for various events, it is now well worn, has burn holes in it and looks like a veteran soldier owned it.

[Ian McWherter]

Of course fancy tobacco pouches existed, I've seen numerous originals and have Peterson's text illustrating many more. Just because this was a privately procured item, doesn't necessarily mean that any one or all of the styles of pouches available at that time would have been carried by soldiers. Its impossible to say, unless we can find original examples of these pouches that have known soldier provenance, which was my original point. If those originals in the Atlanta History Center were carried by soldiers that's the kind of documentation I'm looking for, not whether these existed or not (which of course we all know did). I prefer to have every article of my citizen or military impression documented in detail, I don't like going out on a limb with anything, may have or may not just doesn't cut it for me.

[VIrginia Mescher]

Of course fancy tobacco pouches existed, I've seen numerous originals and have Peterson's text illustrating many more. Just because this was a privately procured item, doesn't necessarily mean that any one or all of the styles of pouches available at that time would have been carried by soldiers. Its impossible to say, unless we can find original examples of these pouches that have known soldier provenance, which was my original point. If those originals in the Atlanta History Center were carried by soldiers that's the kind of documentation I'm looking for, not whether these existed or not (which of course we all know did). I prefer to have every article of my citizen or military impression documented in detail, I don't like going out on a limb with anything, may have or may not just doesn't cut it for me.

I'm not sure if this will help but here are some excerpts from diaries or memoirs. Unfortunately they are just general references to soldiers carrying tobacco bags or pouches.

From Diary of Belle Edmundson
"September, Tuesday 13, 1864
Maj. Crump, Maj. Cheatham, Mrs. Reynolds, Lou, Mary Lou & I have spent a very pleasant day. Eddie arrived from West Point this morning - Lou made him a beautiful Tobacco bag, Mary Lou made Maj. Crump one."

From A Virginia Girl in the Civil War, 1861-1865: Being a Record of the Actual Experiences of the Wife of a Confederate Officer by Myrta Lockett Avary
"He had on a bedticking shirt, a tobacco-bag of bedticking hung by a string from a button of his shirt — a button which, by the way, was doing more than double duty."

From Four Years Under Marse Robert by Robert Stiles
"In less than two hours after the order was given, the wagon was gone and the men left in "campaign trim." This meant that each man had one blanket, one small haversack, one change of underclothes, a canteen, cup and plate of tin, a knife and fork, and the clothes in which he stood. When ready to march, the blanket, rolled lengthwise, the ends brought together and strapped, hung from left shoulder across under right arm; the haversack--furnished with towel, soap, comb, knife and fork in various pockets, a change of underclothes in the main division, and whatever rations we happened to have in the other--hung on the left hip; the canteen, cup and plate, tied together, hung on the right; toothbrush, at will, stuck in two button holes of jacket or in haversack; tobacco bag hung to a breast button, pipe in pocket."

From Red-tape and Pigeon-hole Generals: As Seen from the Ranks During a Campaign in the Army of the Potomac by Henry Morford (1864)
"Pipe in mouth, their troubles are puffed away in the gracefully ascending smoke. Many a non-user of the weed envies in moody silence the perfect satisfaction resting upon the features of his comrade thus engaged. Non-users are becoming rare birds in the army. So
universal is the habit, that the pipe appears to belong to the equipment, and the tobacco-pouch, suspended from a button-hole of the blouse, is so generally worn that one would suppose it to have been prescribed by the President as part of the uniform."

[Charles Heath]

The tobacco bag portion of this thread could be the catalyst for a future workshop from that fine gal in southern Pennsylvania, or some other source. Just a thought.

I'll be pondering what should be worn for a well-digger cooking a pig, and a freshly released Old Capitol Prison inmate with a right fair piece of road to walk at an event shortly thereafter. Those are my next two high end "fashion plates."

[Jimmayo]

This tobacco bag came from General Dearing's possessions.

[Carolann Schmitt]

The tobacco bag portion of this thread could be the catalyst for a future workshop from that fine gal in southern Pennsylvania, or some other source. Just a thought.

So noted. It would also be a good workshop for a certain well-regarded civilian group. Or a good subject for a future competition at a conference. :)

[Shockoe Hill Cats]

While this thread is specifically addressing the provence of "fancy pouches", I might point out that not all tobacco was carried in pouches. What about the paper? A lot of nice period packaging labels can be found (e.g. Thos. C Williams & Co., Wm. H. Goodwin & Co., etc.)

However, one that came to my mind was that "My heart is true to Dixie" pouch housed in the MoC. Does anyone have a EoG copy handy? I can't recall if it was identified to a particular soldier or not. Worth a look.

I prefer to have every article of my citizen or military impression documented in detail, I don't like going out on a limb with anything, may have or may not just doesn't cut it for me.

Amen! More people should be as industrious as us; I mostly only carry N.Y.-manufactured stuff with labels or other "dating" that coincides with the working years of my impression. And to be honest, it takes a little more research and detailing but the overall result is well worth it.

[M_Kupsch]

Jason,

Glad you made mention of that particular tobacco pouch. The one Kara made me is based on that same pouch...and it was definitely owned/carried by a soldier.

[jdanner723]

I am wondering where I might be able to obtain one of the patterns mentioned earlier on in this thread. Particularly the ones that appeared in Peterson's. I've done a google search and most of the links seem to be editions of Peterson's that are for sale in antique stores.

[redkimba]

Are there any on-line websites to see examples of the Peterson's tobacco bags such as the ones listed below? I had thought to make one for a gift box, but can find only post-war examples (and my resources are limited)

Kimberly Scott

**

Peterson's December 1858, a braided, lined tobacco pouch with metal clasp closure.

Peterson's November 1859, a "crochet tobacco-pouch, ornamented with flowers in relief." This one had many crocheted flowers around the pouch and tassels hanging off the sides and from the bottom.

Peterson's February 1862, "Tobacco pouch, braided in gold and red cloth." This one just had the outline of the pattern for the pouch and the braid pattern with no instructions.

Peterson's July 1862, "Tobacco bag." This pouch was made of Russian leather with a braided design of blue velvet and lined with white kid.

Peterson's March 1865, "Tobacco Bag." This bag was a rounded pouch made of velvet, silk, cloth, or cashmere and lined with leather. The pattern for each side was included as was the design for the embroidery which was done in beads. The seams were covered with braid.

Peterson's May 1866, Tobacco Bag." This was a crocheted bag don in blue, red or green, lined with chamois.

Peterson's July 1866, "Tobacco Pouch in braid and embroidery." There was only a pattern with no directions for this rounded pouch.

[VIrginia Mescher]

Are there any on-line websites to see examples of the Peterson's tobacco bags such as the ones listed below? I had thought to make one for a gift box, but can find only post-war examples (and my resources are limited)

Kimberly Scott



Kimberly,

If you live near an university, check their library database and see if they have the American Periodical Series (APS) online. If so, that database has Peterson's and should have all the examples you mentioned from Peterson's. This database is only open to staff, students or faculty off campus but most university libraries are open to the general public and you can use them on site.

Most local or community libraries don't have APS but it would not hurt to check there also.

I don't know of any other online source of Peterson's.