John Henry Kurtz Auction

[LeatherHead]

AC readers will want to go to the Heritage Auction site HA.com to view the online auction catalog of the John Henry Kurtz Civil War collection. The live auction is in Gettysburg next Friday, November 21, 2008.

On the HA website, one can view every item, most with multiple photographs and authoritative descriptions. The pictures can be viewed in several sizes and pixel count, and are downloadable. When the "largest" picture is full screen, just a part of the item can be seen, with scrolling feature, to study it in incredible clarity and detail, often down to thread count. Downloading the image at this biggest enlargement captures it and it can then be viewed from your computer hard drive or CD with the same high quality. The comprehensiveness and convenience of this computer imagery on-line far exceeds anything possible in print format. You can make your own permanent Civil War soldiers' goods reference for the investment of your time and a few CDs.

Most of the listings (except firearms) went on eBay earlier this week.

I'm surprised this hadn't yet been brought to ACers' attention.

Have Fun!

Dean Nelson
1st MD Infantry, CSA, N-SSA

[Nighthawk]

Dean,

Thanks for the heads up! This is really quite a catalog, and the photos themselves are an education. See you on the firing line!

[LibertyHallVols]

I ordered the printed catalog from the website for $50. It arrived two days ago and is probably about the best $50 I've ever spent! Combined with the high resolution photos from the website, the catalog is a first-rate research guide and compendium of Federal material culture.

To put it simply:
WOW!!!!!!!!!!

[bizzilizzit]

AC readers will want to go to the Heritage Auction site HA.com to view the online auction catalog of the John Henry Kurtz Civil War collection. The live auction is in Gettysburg next Friday, November 21, 2008.

Dean Nelson
1st MD Infantry, CSA, N-SSA

Auction takes place the 20th and 21st - "Other" CW stuff on sale before John Henry's on the 20th - Lincoln collector's on sale, I believe, on the 22nd. Viewing in the 19th.
Elizabeth Topping

[August77]

This is an amazing collection and a pretty important auction to attend for folks like us. Plenty of stuff you don't get to see everyday. My catalog arrived a week or two ago and I got to say it ranks up there with some of the better reference books I own. You actually get both catalogs for the John Henry auction and the other CW items. Like John Wickett said, well worth the $50.

The auction is broken into 3 sessions as follows:

Session 1 - Thursday, November 20, 6:00 PM ET (Lots 57001-57283)
Session 2, The John Henry Kurtz Collection - Friday, November 21, 9:00 AM ET (Lots 57284-57619)
Session 3, The John Henry Kurtz Collection - Friday, November 21, 1:00 PM ET (Lots 57620-57956)

HA also advises that 'Lots are sold at an approximate rate of 100 lots per hour, but it is not uncommon to sell 80 lots or 125 lots in any given hour.'

Viewing begins on Wednesday, November 19 at 3:00 PM.

[DougCooper]

I guess it was too much to hope that the collection was to be donated. I am sure there are good reasons for the auction, but it is sad to see it broken up forever.

[coastaltrash]

I'll tell you what, some of the pictures in that collection are simply breathtaking. There is one of a set of federal infantrymen around a kettle. Wish I had an extra $2500.

[BobbyHughes]

I think that some of the artifacts belonging to famous people should certainly be donated, like Billy Mahone's field glasses and boots.

Looking at some of the images of Federals eating or preparing meals were fascinating! Anyone notice the REALLY big sergeant stripes on a few of em? Looked like field produced stripes to me. And speaking of stripes, I thought the 1st Sergeants stripes up for sale looked alot like some of the stuff sold by mainstream vendors, backings and all!!

Simply a wonderful collection of items!

[AZReenactor]

Pat, do you mean this one (http://historical.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=6015&Lot_No=57314#Photo)?

It is an awesome image.

At least it's possible to turn off the pan and zoom and copy the digital images (http://images.ha.com/lf?source=url[file:images/inetpub/NewNames/300/4/2/1/7/4217183.jpg],continueonerror[true]&source=url[file:images/inetpub/webuse/no_image_available.gif],if[(%27global.source.error%27)]&sink) in decent quality.

[coastaltrash]

Troy,
Yup, that's the one. There are several others like it in that sale, I sat here last week and flipped through justs aw struck. Looking at those NCO stripes, you have to wonder if they are from around the Atlanta time frame when guys were cutting up scrap to make the stripes and old sack coats to make trouser stripes.

http://historical.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=6015&Lot_No=57300

http://historical.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=6015&Lot_No=57301

http://historical.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=6015&Lot_No=57315

[DougCooper]

Wow - the CS Captain's jacket http://historical.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=6015&Lot_No=57182#Photo

and Rosser's camp desk http://historical.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=6015&Lot_No=57140#Photo are very cool.

The number of New York State jacket photos and other western state jacket photos are superb -

check the Ohio photo http://historical.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=6015&Lot_No=57624#Photo

and the 15th Iowa photo, complete with a 17th Corps badge. http://historical.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=6015&Lot_No=57663#Photo

[Yellowhammer Rebel]

I as well noticed the "mainstream" style 1st Sgt stripes and also the canteens. There were several canteens that had corks that were attached by chains. Several also had covers of different colors ranging from light blue all the way to dark blue wool covers as well as covers of the "norm" that we are used to.
I am just wondering about some of these things and was hoping that someone could answer my questions. I think that someone has addressed the sgt. stripes already but I was wondering about the canteens as well.

Thanks for your help,
Andrew Schultz

[August77]

I as well noticed the "mainstream" style 1st Sgt stripes and also the canteens. There were several canteens that had corks that were attached by chains. Several also had covers of different colors ranging from light blue all the way to dark blue wool covers as well as covers of the "norm" that we are used to.
I am just wondering about some of these things and was hoping that someone could answer my questions. I think that someone has addressed the sgt. stripes already but I was wondering about the canteens as well.

Thanks for your help,
Andrew Schultz

Arched type chevrons were not the only style chevrons that existed and yes there were blue canteen covers (and chains existed especially on NY Depot canteens). I think we should be careful on 'this side of the hobby' as we tend to latch on to certain things just like the majority of mainstream reenactors do with different pieces of equipment. Although arched chevrons, jean/satinette/blanket canteen covers, etc. are correct, we begin to follow only one line of thinking and ultimately over represent certain items. Just my opinion though.

[GreencoatCross]

All,

Totally agree with Mr. Lomas on this one. The items, ALL of the items, in the Kurtz collection are proof positive that "PEC" is a lot more varied and much more interesting than many think. In my opinion the mainstream ideals of "PEC" is "BALONEY." Really....how many original canteens are covered with Federal blankets anyway?

As I noticed a few months ago when this auction was first brought to my attention, there is a particular style of jacket made by a particular contractor that seems to turn previous conceptions about the garment upside-down. I will task Pat Landrum to find this garment!

Advocate of blue canteen covers,

[bizzilizzit]

I guess it was too much to hope that the collection was to be donated. I am sure there are good reasons for the auction, but it is sad to see it broken up forever.

Before he passed, John Henry was working on a deal with the US Army to buy his entire collection - he did want to keep it together! The Army ran out of money last year and may have purchased it this year, but the collection was passed to his brother when he died, who decided to auction it off.
Elizabeth

[LibertyHallVols]

Advocate of blue canteen covers,

You ain't alone there, Brian!

I agree with you on the jacket, canteens, and several other points! My Federal impression(s) will be undergoing some changes based on what I've been seeing.

[BenjaminLDavis]

Is it just me, or does that feller from the 15th Iowa bear a
more-than-passing resemblance to Holler?

[coastaltrash]

Hate to disappoint you Brian, but I lack the time to crawl through that entire listing to find what you're talking about. Wish I could drop a bank roll on it though!

[LibertyHallVols]

Hate to disappoint you Brian, but I lack the time to crawl through that entire listing to find what you're talking about. Wish I could drop a bank roll on it though!


See lot number 57508, JT Martin Jacket:
http://historical.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=6015&Lot_No=57508

There's some interesting construction on the interior of that collar. It apears that the interior collar is simply folded to match the shape of the outer collar, rather than being cut from an identical pattern piece. Anyone else notice this?

[CompanyWag]

Now that you mention it, that is an interesting detail.

I just folded a piece of paper in half lengthwise and tucked in the end to match the angle of the collar. The result was a crease that matches the angled seam on each end of the inner collar with no apparent seam along any edge. Pretty neat detail. I wonder if the resulting seam was merely folded flat and sewn or was clipped to reduce bulk at the fold? I'd also like to peer into the worn hole on the edge to see the interfacing.

Paul McKee

[CompanyWag]

Arched type chevrons were not the only style chevrons that existed and yes there were blue canteen covers (and chains existed especially on NY Depot canteens). I think we should be careful on 'this side of the hobby' as we tend to latch on to certain things just like the majority of mainstream reenactors do with different pieces of equipment. Although arched chevrons, jean/satinette/blanket canteen covers, etc. are correct, we begin to follow only one line of thinking and ultimately over represent certain items. Just my opinion though.

I thoroughly agree with the above statement. However I should caution that just because a certain example appears in a well established collection, it does not neccesarily mean it is either a commonly used pattern or even an original example. Because someone has money and collecting connections doesn't guarantee a turd can't turn up among the roses. The first sergeant's chevrons may deserve a closer inspection.

Paul McKee

[August77]

I thoroughly agree with the above statement. However I should caution that just because a certain example appears in a well established collection, it does not neccesarily mean it is either a commonly used pattern or even an original example. Because someone has money and collecting connections doesn't guarantee a turd can't turn up among the roses. The first sergeant's chevrons may deserve a closer inspection.

I completely agree! I guess I should have expanded in my post saying there is enough photographic evidence on top of a supposed original pair to show the use of 'straight' chevrons. Even without leaving the confines of that auction you have the CDV of Sgt. Bicknell (57661) and the tintype identified as Edwin Chamberlain (57685).

[GreencoatCross]

John Wickett wins the prize. Does anyone have access to complete contract records for John T. Martin? Just how many of these infantry jackets were produced by his firm? One of my thoughts on this particular garment is that it was not intended to be an officer's garment but was instead an enlisted infantry jacket adapted for use by an officer (note the buttons).

It bears striking resemblance to the Schuylkill Arsenal infantry jacket but has some very noticeable differences. The cuffs appear to be non-functional and the buttonholes and buttons are simply for show (look real close in the photos and you will see this too, unless I'm going nuts). The lining looks like the silesia or alpaca that is used in uniform coats (not plain, striped, or plaid domet flannel as used at SA). Although we can't really tell with the photos, it appears to be machine sewn and lacks the extensive internal hand-sewing of an SA infantry jacket.

Anyone else have any thoughts on this?

[CompanyWag]

...One of my thoughts on this particular garment is that it was not intended to be an officer's garment but was instead an enlisted infantry jacket adapted for use by an officer (note the buttons)...

Absolutely. Officer's clothing would not show contractor or inspector marks unless it had been converted from enlisted clothing.

Paul McKee

[FranklinGuardsNYSM]

My initial interpretation of the inner collar is that it was pieced by hand, and we're looking at the seam of where that occurred. I hope that this jacket will be on display at the auction and that we'll get some answers.

The second internal pocket is interesting. There looks to be a good amount of hand-work, such as on the pockets and the attachment of the lining and the bottom facings. The breast quilting also appears to be L-shaped and machined, as opposed to the SA's straight-and-handsewn.

[CompanyWag]

My initial interpretation of the inner collar is that it was pieced by hand, and we're looking at the seam of where that occurred. I hope that this jacket will be on display at the auction and that we'll get some answers.

That was initially my thought as well, but a closer look at the inside view of the collar (near the center where the wear/moth hole is), the collar edge is flattened out and apparently shows no seam or even top stitching. If true, this is an interesting labor-saving detail as used by the Martin firm.

Paul McKee

[LibertyHallVols]

John Wickett wins the prize.

Great! What did I win??? :D I have a great idea for a prize!! :wink_smil
(Where's Don Pardo when you need him!)

On the coat:
My initial thought when I saw this detail was that it was a labor-saving measure. I don't think it is piecing because it would be a small triangular piece at each end of the collar... yet, if you follow the diagonal seam, it doesn't go all-the-way to the corner of the collar piece. If it were pieced, it would go all-the-way.

Also, collars are pretty small pieces, so it shouldn't be that hard to find a scrap large enough to make a collar piece. I would find it hard to imagine a seamster/seamstress making the effort.

It appears to me that two pieces, perhaps even simple rectangles, were joined together, forming a center seam, then placed right-sides-together with the outer collar. Then, they were (perhaps) turned inside (at which point the fold would have been formed) and stitched down as we see it today. I would imagine that excess material was probably trimmed away from the seam allowance before setting the lining.

[FranklinGuardsNYSM]

I follow ya. Still, seems like that would be an awful lot of bulk, as that would amount to four layers of wool at the front of the collar. That would also preclude the inclusion of an in-the-seam hook-and-eye collar closure, assuming this jacket or any of its siblings were ideally meant to have one. In the blown-up view of the jacket front, I feel like I'm looking at a barely discernible seam at the top of the collar, visible most before it curves around toward the back, keeping with the usual outer collar folded down at the edges, and a raw inner collar attached around the edges often encountered on these. (Photos attached of the Byam jacket of probable SA manufacture.)

The photos in the auction gallery are great for their size, but frustrating because they're not really "high-res." Hard to tell what's actually part of a garment, and what's a line of pixels.

[LibertyHallVols]

I follow ya. Still, seems like that would be an awful lot of bulk, as that would amount to four layers of wool at the front of the collar.

Very true. Perhaps the folded section was sewn together and clipped like a dart. I think only a hands-on examination would be able to show for sure. I'd love to get my hands on it, even for only a few minutes!!! :rolleyes: If anyone has a chance to examine it at the auction, I (and many other, I'm sure) would love to hear any observations on this feature!

Nomatter how that collar was put together, that is one interesting jacket!!!

[LeatherHead]

I was able to examine John Henry's J.T. Martin infantry jacket maybe 5 years ago. From memory, it was identified to a Union light artillery enlisted man whose name I have written down somewhere. With the jacket laid out right in front of you, it is quite evident that the JTM product was altered in its time of use at the cuffs, the lining and the collar. The wool of the body has lost its knap from wear and in person now almost looks like gaberdene. The small eagle staff buttons were not the 1st set on the coat but appear to have been on it during its use.

The JTM cuff featured working pairs of button holes and typical openable slit. The modification sewed the slit closed, "blinded" the button hole (I think) and re-sewed the now-non-functioning buttons at the end of the original button hole.

The JTM collar was opened at the top seam by cutting & removing stitching for most of its length, possibly to remove JTM stiffening. That seam was simply pinched shut and, I recall, overcast stitched to close it.

The jacket retained most of its JTM lining, but received another full lining of the fabric that lines most regulation Union enlisted uniform coats; sometimes that (now) black/green fine twilled cloth is called "alpaca" and is thought to be a wool/silk mixture. The front panels of that added lining were padded and the presence of the JTM lining and 2nd lining made for a heavy garment, quite bulky-looking. The 2nd lining featured extra pocket(s).

Some of the JTM-machined long seams gave out under use and were repaired from the outside by hand overcast stitches.

That's what I recall from my time with it, to reduce the speculation a bit.....

yours in the hobby....

Dean Nelson
1st MD Infantry, CSA; N-SSA

[DougCooper]

Before he passed, John Henry was working on a deal with the US Army to buy his entire collection - he did want to keep it together! The Army ran out of money last year and may have purchased it this year, but the collection was passed to his brother when he died, who decided to auction it off.
Elizabeth

Sounds like John Henry. Sure do miss him.

[GreencoatCross]

Dean,

Fantastic information, thank you very much for sharing!!!

[Canebrake Rifle Guards]

Before he passed, John Henry was working on a deal with the US Army to buy his entire collection - he did want to keep it together! The Army ran out of money last year and may have purchased it this year, but the collection was passed to his brother when he died, who decided to auction it off.
Elizabeth

The Army really wanted to buy it. The fellow that tried to make it work is an old colleague of mine. Typically government agencies are not prepared for such large aquisitions, but when JH decided to try to work a sale, Carlisle Barricks hunted around their budget and found money that could properly be used to acqure the collection. However they were not able to consumate the deal within that fiscal year, and as you know, unspent budget money is generally taken away. So when JH was ready to make the deal, it was a new fiscal year and the money they had potenially to buy the collection was now gone. JH passed away and the collection devolved to his brother.

Greg Starbuck

[Uncle Pig]

Interesting that in this post:

http://historical.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=6015&Lot_No=57308

The men are wearing Canada hats that are normaly associated with Michigan units but they are lister as the 6th Maine?

Also Found this one:

http://historical.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=6015&Lot_No=57651

[FranklinGuardsNYSM]

Never mind the hats, check out the form on that Support Arms!

Obsessed much? You bet.

[Slouch]

I went to the auction last Friday. It was NUTS! Most items were inside of displays, but they would take anything you wanted out of the case for you to hold, unfold, measure, photograph, etc. I had the feeling they would have let me try on the original frock coats had I asked :eek:. The auction staff were very cooporative. They gave us free auction cataloges, one from the Thursday and Friday auctions. They are just as nice as Echo's of Glory.

[garyjd]

I too was able to see the preview for the lots and it was pretty breathtaking seeing so many great things all at once. I'm sure most of this stuff will now disappear into private collections. ~Gary

[bizzilizzit]

Before he passed, John Henry was working on a deal with the US Army to buy his entire collection - he did want to keep it together! The Army ran out of money last year and may have purchased it this year, but the collection was passed to his brother when he died, who decided to auction it off.
Elizabeth

From what I've been told, the US Army was able to purchase quite of bit of John Henry's collection, so some of it may end up on display, somewhere, at some point, for others to enjoy.
Elizabeth Topping

[Son of Eire]

Anyone take photographs at the auction that they'd care to share?

[Blanket Head]

Elizabeth,
Unfortunately you are incorrect in the statement that US Army was able to purchase some items from the Kurtz collection. I work for the Museum (the Army Heritage Museum) at Carlisle that was in the process of working the possible donation from John Henry. And as previously mentioned we were unable to come up with the funds he was requesting. We were able however to see the entire collection first hand (and even had a couple of pieces of headgear on exhibit for three months) before handing it back over. It was indeed a one of a kind collection that probably would have been best suited in the public's domain for the rest of eternity; but alas red tape can always be a killer.

Regards,

Kaleb Dissinger