CS Richmond Rifle - did AOT have them?

[reb1912]

Dear Pards

Would any of you gents know how high the probability of a confederate soldier in the AOT having a CS Richmond Rifle 1863 was? Im doing a late war impression and I favour the Richmond Rifle and I can't seem to find solid evidence for the rifle being in the hands of the AOT. About 25.000 small arms was produced in Richmond Armoury. If anybody is able to help it would be much appreciated.

[MuleyGil]

Longstreet and his men served out West for a while. Battlefield pickup, maybe?

Gil Tercenio

[reb1912]

Longstreet and his men served out West for a while. Battlefield pickup, maybe?

Gil Tercenio

Yes. I came to the same conclusion and would go for that explenation, but it would be interesting to know if AOT were supplied directly by Richmond.

Thanks for the reply :) .

[Alamo Guard]

Hmmmmmm I suppose there might have been one or two floating around. I know Granburys Texans used Lorenz's and Mississippi Muskets.

[Nighthawk]

Christian-

By Richmond Rifle, do you mean a Richmond rifle musket? There was a Richmond Rifle made during the war, but it was referred to as a Richmond Mtd. Infantry Rifle. It was a two bander with the low hump lockplate, brass buttplate and nosecap. It had the standard Richmond rear sight with a "pinched" blade front sight. No provision for a bayonet at all. I have seen a couple of originals that varied slightly from this configuration too. My best advice is to research the unit you've chosen and use what they were using.

[reb1912]

Christian-

By Richmond Rifle, do you mean a Richmond rifle musket? There was a Richmond Rifle made during the war, but it was referred to as a Richmond Mtd. Infantry Rifle. It was a two bander with the low hump lockplate, brass buttplate and nosecap. It had the standard Richmond rear sight with a "pinched" blade front sight. No provision for a bayonet at all. I have seen a couple of originals that varied slightly from this configuration too. My best advice is to research the unit you've chosen and use what they were using.

Thanks for the replies!! I guesse your right. Thing is I've searched for info about the 16th tenn, but other than regular regimental history (ie. when founded and paroled), I haven't stumbled on any info about rifles and accroutments related to them.
The rifle is a three band Euroarms infantry musket CS Richmond Rifle replica (http://www.euroarms.net/Avancarica/AVIMG/2370-RICHMOND_01.jpg)

[LWhite64]

From the Diary of Flavel C. Barber, published as HOLDING THE LINE. In December of 1862, he wrote from Mississippi: "My company and Captain Matthews' were furnished with new rifles, mine made in Richmond, and supplied with the sabre bayonet..." It would be hard in some cases to tell if a unit had Richmonds by just looking at Ord Reports, etc, because most likely they would show up as Springfields or US muskets, same goes for Cook and Brother showing up as Enfields. Remember that these are CS copies of an existing style, so are not original per se.

Lee

[Gallo de Cielo]

Christian,

The above post by Paul to research your specific unit is probably best. The regimental histories that you're starting with are good but dig deeper. Check the OR's and then more importantly, try to wade through the CSR's for the regiment.

On a broader note, I recall a conversation with Bob Serio (of Missouri Boot and Shoe fame) in which he detailed the arrival of a considerable number of Richmond rifle muskets as far out as the Trans-Mississippi. The CS forces engaged at Prarie Grove were some of the main benefactors of that supply.
So is it plausible that that weapon wound up in the hands of AOT soldiers? Yep. I wouldn't regard it as a common thing and would only do it per unit/time specific documentation.

Regards,

Fred Baker

[Tom Ezell]

On a broader note, I recall a conversation with Bob Serio (of Missouri Boot and Shoe fame) in which he detailed the arrival of a considerable number of Richmond rifle muskets as far out as the Trans-Mississippi. The CS forces engaged at Prarie Grove were some of the main benefactors of that supply.

Hindman's 1st Corps, Army of the Trans-Mississippi got a shipment of 3,000 weapons, half Enfields, and half Richmond rifle-muskets, while at War Eagle Creek just before they marched on the Prairie Grove campaign in November, 1862. A pard has one of those Richmonds in his collection, marked to B Co., 26th Arkansas. So there were some Richmonds out in the Trans-Mississippi, but that wouldn't help with AoT research... nor does the fact that a whole lot of inspectors simply noted that the troops had ".58 cal. minie rifles."

Tom

[CYoungJSU]

All-

A "Reports of Inspection" from the Archives for Polk's Corps (Dating from May 6-9, 1863) indicate some leads to the AOT ordnance, especially that of the 16th Tennessee.

Inspection of Ord & Ord Stores
Transportation & in Lt. Gen. Polk's Corp
Shelbyville, Tennessee

Withers' Division:
Anderson's Brigade
Manigault's Brigade
Deas' & Walthalls Brigades are on Picket duty

Cheathams' Division
Maney's Brigade
Preston [Smith's] Brigade
Wright's Brigade:

[I]16th Tenn. Reg't.
Enf. Rifles 385
Eff. Men 376
Cartridges 54,976
need 1(one wagon)
Serg't mounted, no saddle or [bridle?]
Wagons in Reg't. good

51st Tenn. Reg't.
Guns in Reg't. 249
Cartridges 30,840 or could be 30,640
Serg't mounted

38th Tenn. Reg't.
Guns in Reg't. 268
Cartridges 21,388
Serg't. mounted


These are just a few examples given in this report. Obviously, Wright's Brigade also contained the 8th and 28th Tennessee Regiments. I have not given the full report but only a portion of what I have noticed while reading.
Relating to the earlier question about the 16th Tennesse Regiment and Richmond rifles, it appears that if one is to portray them in mid '63, he should be shouldering an enfield (rifle/rifle-musket). Unfortunately, I cannot recall the exact film roll where this is located. Please be patient and I will try and dig it up.

Christopher Young

[ScottMcKay]

Hmmmmmm I suppose there might have been one or two floating around. I know Granburys Texans used Lorenz's and Mississippi Muskets.Dusty, actually its Lorenz' & Mississippi Rifles, but that is up to Pickett's Mill, where my research show them issued Springfield & Enfields immediately thereafter (eventually being totally equipped with Enfields).

[reb1912]

Wow!!! That's is some heavy information, guys. Thank you all a bundle!! This is why this forums rules!!
Now I have something to work with to better my impression (unfortunatly it looks like my Richmond only will see service on special occassions), and especially it coulnd't be more specific than what Mr. Young wrote. Thank you. I guess its back to the trusty ol' Enfield. :D

[roundshot]

According to Todd's "American Military Equipage," Trans Mississippi infantry raised in 1862 were by October of that year "supplied by the Confederacy with Richmond rifle muskets." These included the 26th, 28th, 29th, 30th and 32nd Arkansas Regiments. Bob Williams

[JimKindred]

I would go easy using Todd's as a reference, it isn't the most reliable source. I think so much of it that I use it for a door stop.

You also have to consider what month and what year you are trying to use to establish when units were equipped with certain weapons, it changes through out the war in some units. I would recommend digging into the OR’s for information dealing with this subject. A quick search turns up several mentions of Richmond rifles and muskets.

[ScottMcKay]

Christian,

Fred Baker is correct that you may find your answer (one way or another) by doing regimental research, and as Fred suggested, the CSRs are your best vehicle.

The main records (microfilm) are held in the National Archives and are available for viewing/xeroxing. But most state/library archives have the CSR microfilm rolls of their related state regiments. If you live near Nashville, the Tennessee State Library has the records of their state regiments.

If you persue this route, I would suggest you check out the first part of the first roll of your regiment's series of rolls; there, it will list it's officers and their positions. Look for the Ordnance Officer then look up his individual CSR (listed aphabetically within the regigmental CSR). If you are luck, you will very probably find ordnance receipts & invoice that detail what your regiment of choice were issued.

If the 16th Tennessee Infantry is your main impression, you might consider tailoring your weapon to reflect the result, rather than choosing a weapon for desire, then strive for documentation to support that choice.

The following link is a mix of accounts, ordnance records & inspection reports of the 10th Texas Infantry. I present it as an example of what type of information may unfold if you dig into your regimental CSRs:


http://members.aol.com/cbbelt/Ordnance/

[CYoungJSU]

Christian-

I have a little more information on this particular unit for you. Online, you can get some early war information by reading Carroll H. Clark's diary. He enlisted in Co. I, 16th Tennessee. In Article 4 of his diary, he states that:

Our guns were flint lock muskets and carried cartridges made of one large ball and three buckshot. Our cartridge boxes held forty cartridges and fastened to a belt and cap box by side of it, which were very convenient and unless a fellow was badly excited could load and shoot rapidly. Our guns were dangerous at close range. The rain continue for many days and we had some trouble in keeping our ammunition dry, but I must return to our march down the little valley.

Also, in Thomas A. Head's Campaigns and Battle of the Sixteenth Regiment, Tennessee Volunteers, in the War Between the States, With Incidental Sketches of the Part Performed by Other Tennessee Troops in the Same War. 1861-1865, another reference to these early war weapons can be found. Head relates,
It had rained continually throughout the night, and, having flint-lock muskets, which had been loaded the evening before, the loads becoming wet, and the first thing the men did in the morning was to extract the cartridges form their guns and put them in good order. The had all kept their powder dry, and having rubbed up their guns and examined their flints they awaited the signal for attack (43).

The above references are before the regiment was transfered to South Carolina and then to Corinth, Mississippi, it being in Virginia during the engagement at Cheat Mountain. So, what we obviously know is that in 1861-early 1862 the regiment was armed with flint-locks, but they were armed with enfields by summer 1863. This leaves a gap between the flint-locks, enfields, and what the regiment possibly carried in the 1864 campaigns. That means that the best means would be looking at the CSR's like the previous posts have stated. Unfortunately, I have not had time to research the F&S of the 16th to try and trace down some request or ordnance returns for the regiment. The problem with the 16th's CSR's is that most, if not all, regimental returns end after April 1864. That means that we have to dig a little deeper. I'll let you know what I find. Thanks for your interest.

Head, Thomas A. Campaigns and Battle of the Sixteenth Regiment, Tennessee Volunteers, in the War Between the States, With Incidental Sketches of the Part Performed by Other Tennessee Troops in the Same War. 1861-1865. Nashville:Cumberland Presbyterian, 1885.

Rice, Frank. My Grandfather's Diary of the Civil War., 20 April 1999. http://www.rootsweb.com/~tnvanbur/vbdiary.html (11 March 2004).

Also, for everyone else to ponder over. Here is something very interesting related to the "Inspection Article" I posted earlier. The 1st Arkansas was a mounted rifles (dismounted) regiment.

McNair's Brigade:
1st Ark. Reg't.
Eff. men 273 (?-due to being stamped over)
Guns in Reg't 293 (?-due to being stamped over by War Dept. Rebel Archives stamp)
27 of above are Sharp Rifles
Need 3,000 Sharp Rifle Cart.
Cartridges 37,240
Not mounted. good wagons
Sent Return to Richmond

Just an interesting tid-bit. Not to be taken way out of context PLEASE!!

Christopher Young

[Curt Schmidt]

Hallo Kameraden!

Yes, are we talking about rifles with the heavy 33 inch barrel, or the rilfe-musket with the thinner 40 inch barrel here?

The "rifle" machinery and parts that were not destroyed at the Harpers Ferry fire went to Fayetteville. There are "Richmond" looking early Fayetteville RIFLES that were made of HF parts with the early "Richmond" high humps.

Or, are we talking about the so-called Richmond C.S. "Musketoon" that was essentially (to borrow the federal term) an "artillery rifle" with a 33 inch rifle-musket barrel (not the heavy rifle barrel). These look like the rifles, except when the lighter barrel is observed.

I believe that the original post meant rifle-muskets and not rifles, or the musketoons?

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt
Former CW Gunmaker Specializing in M1855's, "Richmonds," and "Fayetteviles" ;-)

[reb1912]

Hallo Kameraden!

Yes, are we talking about rifles with the heavy 33 inch barrel, or the rilfe-musket with the thinner 40 inch barrel here?

The "rifle" machinery and parts that were not destroyed at the Harpers Ferry fire went to Fayetteville. There are "Richmond" looking early Fayetteville RIFLES that were made of HF parts with the early "Richmond" high humps.

Or, are we talking about the so-called Richmond C.S. "Musketoon" that was essentially (to borrow the federal term) an "artillery rifle" with a 33 inch rifle-musket barrel (not the heavy rifle barrel). These look like the rifles, except when the lighter barrel is observed.

I believe that the original post meant rifle-muskets and not rifles, or the musketoons?

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt
Former CW Gunmaker Specializing in M1855's, "Richmonds," and "Fayetteviles" ;-)

´Hi Curt

It's a repro of a CS Richmond 1863 Rifle Musket 40" barrel low hump. Theres a picture of it in one of my posts.

[reb1912]

You are to kind friends. By your posts I've learned a lot, that I probably would've had a hard time locateting, as I live in Denmark, Europe. This also means that I definately won't be able to visit the National Archives and look for ordenance reports. But I know have a fairly good image of the kind of rifle musket that would fit my impression. Thank you all!

[ScottMcKay]

Christian,

You can order the microfilm rolls for the 16th Tennessee Infantry directly through the National Archive Microfilm Department.

[lwtaggart]

Paul Davies quotes in his book 'CS Armory Richmond' that Longstreet's boys received new issue Richmond rifles before going west. Not so sure they all would have had them. All though 1863 did reach some of the highest production numbers for the weapon it would have been a stretch to fit them all.

George Taggart