Revolver cartridges

[Dutchman Dick]

I have some questions concerning the construction of LIVE rounds (for N-SSA "skirmishing", CAS, or just plain fun) for my Colt 1860 Army and my Starr 1858 DA repros. Yeah, I could just do it any way that works, but what the heck - I'm interested in some authenticity here as well even if the live rounds can't be used in a reenactment...

1) Were round balls ever used in original combustible revolver cartridges?

2) Was there a "standard" revolver bullet shape on the Union side (like the Minie was at least somewhat standardized, at least in theory), and if so, who makes a mold for it (if anyone)? I ask, because it seems like every revolver manufacturer back then had their own molds. The ones for the Starr seem rather odd to me, being a one-handled affair with a cylindrical piece containing the mold cavity, and a sprue cut-off plate. I guess they figured the lead would shrink enough on cooling for the bullet to just drop out...

3) Did the union arsenals make revolver ammo, or was it purchased from the revolver manufactureers and private contractors (again, the "proprietary bullet" thing)?

4) What sort of adhesive(s) were used?

5) Is a "correct" cutting pattern available for the cartridge papers?

6) Anything else I need to know? I planned to use cigarette rolling papers, BTW.

[Jimmayo]

This should help some.

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

All of the N-SSA lads I know do not use cartridges, but rather charge from a charger.

IMHO...

In brief and to over-generalize:

1) Were round balls ever used in original combustible revolver cartridges?

Ever? Yes, initially with complaints with chargers for the Colt M1847, orders were made for a round ball cartridge. This continued for a few years, until about 1855 when Benet suggested to Chief of Ordnance Craig to add a concial ball in addition to the round ball ones to be made with separate ball and cartridge.
Craig liked the conicals better.
Oddly enough, Benet went with conicals for teh .36 and tissue wrapped rund ball for the .44 revolvers.

Problems continued along, but it was a pricing mattr between what arsenals could make and what Colt was asking for cartidges. In 1860, Craig called for samples, and tests. Recommendations by Symiongton were ignored, and the 1861 Ordance Manual reflected the desire for "elongated ball" pistol cartridges.

On the other hand, Colt and competitors offered molds that threw a conical as well as a round ball- the thinking being the appeal to the "civilian" market."
The style of conical was not used by the Colt Cartridge Works in "Belt" or "Poice" size revolver cartridges.


2) Was there a "standard" revolver bullet shape on the Union side (like the Minie was at least somewhat standardized, at least in theory), and if so, who makes a mold for it (if anyone)? I ask, because it seems like every revolver manufacturer back then had their own molds. The ones for the Starr seem rather odd to me, being a one-handled affair with a cylindrical piece containing the mold cavity, and a sprue cut-off plate. I guess they figured the lead would shrink enough on cooling for the bullet to just drop out...

By and large, the "Colt" style conical was the "standard," but there really is not a definite, absolute ''standard" bullet univerdal ot all arsenals and contractors. While the profiles are similar, they vary a little in ogive and point, as well as groove, and base.

Dixie Gun Works offers several pistol ball type sin their "hair straightener" pliers molds. Rapine Moulds offers a few in more "sophisticated" molds such as their ".44 Colt Conversion" bullet (the conversion using the old Colt bullet).

3) Did the union arsenals make revolver ammo, or was it purchased from the revolver manufactureers and private contractors (again, the "proprietary bullet" thing)?

Some of the arsenals did, but the Ordnance Department also bought from contractors such as Colt, Bartholow, Chadwick, Hazard, Johnston & Dow, Leet & Hart.


4) What sort of adhesive(s) were used?

Gum.

5) Is a "correct" cutting pattern available for the cartridge papers?

Not that I know of commercially. The 1861 Ordnance Manual lists the trapezoid dimensions for the "arsenal" style cartridge (very close to a "Minie cartridge") consisting of:

Height: 2.75 (44) 2.4 (36)
Long base: 3.25 (44) 2.5 (36)
Short base: 1.6 (44) 1.6 (36)

The cylinder case paper was a 1.73 by .945 rectangle. The powder cylinder a 2.89 by 1.15 by 2.55 trapezoid.

NUG, the "typical" contractor or civilian cartridge was formed from a single trapezoid that was not like a musket cartridge but rather had a single paper cartridge portion than tapered toward the flat base with it stop secured in the conical bullet's groove.

6) Anything else I need to know? I planned to use cigarette rolling papers, BTW.

Be sure that you mike the mouth of each chamber as they can vary on Italian guns. That will help you arrive at what diameter bullets you need moreso than a universal catalog recommendation.
This is IMPORTANT for accuracy AND because the bullet needs to be oversized enough to close the chamber against flash from the mouth to prevent chain fires. OR, you can reduce that risk some by greasing in the mouths (although the grease sometimes gets propelled forward by firings)

Curt

[Dutchman Dick]

This should help some.

I'm afraid the thumbnails didn't come through that time. Try again?

[Dutchman Dick]

Hallo!


4) What sort of adhesive(s) were used?

Gum.

5) Is a "correct" cutting pattern available for the cartridge papers?

Not that I know of commercially. The 1861 Ordnance Manual lists the trapezoid dimensions for the "arsenal" style cartridge (very close to a "Minie cartridge") consisting of:

Height: 2.75 (44) 2.4 (36)
Long base: 3.25 (44) 2.5 (36)
Short base: 1.6 (44) 1.6 (36)

The cylinder case paper was a 1.73 by .945 rectangle. The powder cylinder a 2.89 by 1.15 by 2.55 trapezoid.

NUG, the "typical" contractor or civilian cartridge was formed from a single trapezoid that was not like a musket cartridge but rather had a single paper cartridge portion than tapered toward the flat base with it stop secured in the conical bullet's groove.

Curt

Gum? As in gum arabic?

Also, where can I find a copy of the 1861 ordnance manual? Sounds like it's got LOTS of interesting info in it (I've seen references to it in other posts in regards to various pieces of information).

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

Gum arabic.

Although at this instant, I have water glass floating around (no pun intended) in my head that I cannot remember the reference(s) for so I won't go there.

I am out of the loop, and did not check aorund, but I believe there is no one offering a repro of the "1861" Ordnance Manual (Third Edition).

Originals can be "pricey."

I believe Morningside Books did a run some years ago, and before that Ordnance did a few thousand around 1970.
Once in a year of Sunday's one turns up.
You may want to check some on-line book search companies.

Morningside also did a few copies of the 1863 Confederate Ordnance Manual back in 1995 that turn up every month of Blue Moons. It is partly a pirated copy of the Federal version.

Now if someone would release a repro'd U.S. Quartermaster Manual... ;) :)

Curt

[Dutchman Dick]

Is the book that Fall Creek Sutlery sells the same one? It says third edition, 1861, 15 chapters, 33 plates, 558 pages not including the plates. $24.00. If it's the same one you're talking about, I'll buy it!

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

I stand corrected.
The listing appears to be a new reprint I was not aware of.

Curt

[Dreamer42]

Richard,
PM me about steps. I reload (load?) and shoot my '51 Navy with combustible cartridges using cigarette paper and they work great. Strange looks from the salesman behind the counter, though. Cartridges...yeah, sure.
Works great for the Enfield when hunting, too.

- Jay Reid
Dreamer42

-9th Texas Inf.
Franklin ‘04
Banks Grand Retreat ‘07
Outpost III
Chickamauga ‘08
WWII Reenacting
USMC 1943-1944
G.I 1941-1945
Owner: 1942 White M3A1 Scout Car

[Dutchman Dick]

Happy New Year, all!

I was going through some old boxes over the holidays, and ran across a copy of Kirst's "Self Consuming Paper Cartridges for the Percussion Revolver". I had forgotten I even had it (from what I had written on the flyleaf, I bought it back in 1990!). I also just won a couple of neat items on Ebay: "Round Ball to Rimfire (Vol. III)", which is mainly about pistol and revolver ammo in the Civil War, and an ORIGINAL iron mold fror casting one .44 conical and one .44 round ball.

re: the mold - The sprue-cutter is marked "Colt's Patent", and it is marked "44" on one of the blocks. I just won it, so I haven't received it yet. From the photo, it looks to be a bit pitted, but at less than $50, including shipping, I consider it a steal (I've seen dug relics of the same mold selling for more than that!). If I can get it to cast a useable ball, then I will use it to make my cartridges. Also, I may consider, if there is enough demand, casting SMALL orders of balls for members of TAC who want truly authentic .44 conicals. Price will depend on just how much of a PITA it will be to get a decent ball - trimming, etc. I will post photos so you can all see the results ()will have to wait for warm weather, as I cast outside for safety!)

[Poor Private]

For those of you who are interested in "live" firing of Muzzleloaders, check into/out www.muzzleloadingforum.com This forum is strickly centered around Black Powder usage. There was a couple of threads on it concerning the use of cartridges for pistols,and how to make them. This forum cover everything from old wheellocks thru civil war period BP weapons. Inline BP is a no-no. There are several knowledgable people who inhabit that forum.

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

CW era .44 ammo can vary from say, off the top of my head, from .452 to .468. I believe, or remember, Colt factory rounds were .461. I would assume the Colt molds to be the same but don't remember at the moment. Plus a worn mold often throws larger balls.

Modern Italian reproductions can vary as well. I believe .454 is the recommended ball size for most.

See how you fare...

Curt

[Dutchman Dick]

Thanks! BTW, I am also looking for details on making authentic pistol ammo packets. I know that much of the arsenal-made stuff came either in paper wrappers (early , early war), or pasteboard boxes, according to Round Ball to Rimfire (vol. 3). Anybody got the details on the pasteboard boxes (dimensions, construction, weight/thickness of the pasteboard, labels, etc.)?

[Dutchman Dick]

Hallo!

I am out of the loop, and did not check aorund, but I believe there is no one offering a repro of the "1861" Ordnance Manual (Third Edition).

Originals can be "pricey."

Ordnance did a few thousand around 1970.
Once in a year of Sunday's one turns up.
You may want to check some on-line book search companies.

Curt

I managed to find one of the 1970 Ordnance hard-cover facsimile reprints for a little over $50.00, shipping included. It's #1080 of only 2000 printed. Nice book! However, I can't seem to find the information on pistol cartridges. Am I looking in the wrong section, or did I overlook something? I DID find the info on musket cartridges, but that's about it.