Confederate Musketoon

[riverratmess]

I'm the director of the New England Civil War Museum in Rockville, CT. I am in the process of re-indentifying a number of items in our collection that have not been properly labeled or id'ed.

We have this Confederate musketoon and all I know about it is that it was supposedly carried by a member of J.E.B. Stuart's cavalry. Anyone seen one like this before?

[ContinentalMorganGuard]

I'm no expert but it looks like a cut down Belgin rifle.

[brown]

I'm no expert, but it certainly looks European. Esp. the hammer reminds me of the Austrian tubelocks. Cheek piece, interesting "sling swivel" and side plate for the lock screws, and the distinctive trigger guard should help.
Maybe Lee White can look at Claude Fuller's cataloged piece #666, the Austrian carbine, and tell us if he sees any relationship.

How many holes are filled-in under and in front of the bolster from the conversion? Is there a date/partial date on the lock or are my eyes playing tricks on me (and how many and what numerals are they? you know what I'm thinking if it is just "84x" or "85x"). Is there a mark on the lock behind the hammer?

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

Without having the gun in hand...

It appears to be an Austrian M1842 (Kammer-Karabiner) carbine in .71 (rifle).
These were originally tube-lock, but were modernized and converted to percussion cap after 1854. They are sometimes refered to as "Fruewirth" carbines after two Austrian gun-makers, Johann and Ferdinand.

U.S. and C.S. agents bought numbers of these in Europe.
Some were also in a batch of 10,000-some of six types that George Schuyler was able to buy in 1861 in Bohemia that arrived in 1862 and were issued to Fremont's Western command.

Of course, due to changes in the World, they can be "Austrian" with no ACW association too. ;) :)

Curt

Following Austrian custom, the lockplate stamp "857" is the last three digits of the year of manufacture- 1857.

[Prodical Reb]

It appears to be a 1842 Ausrtian tube lock Cav carbine converted to percussion cap. You can see an 1842 Ausrtian tube lock musket on pg 35 of EoG Union book. As to who done the converting I would say it was done in Austria and imported to the Confederacy via a blockade runner.

[brown]

Both sides bought in Austria, but does anyone have the numbers of how each side did in their Austrian purchases? I can't pull it up at the moment, but I seem to remember larger numbers heading north.

[brown]

This number does not include musketoon, or even tubelocks/conversions/etc, but according to Joe Bilby (http://www.washingtonbluerifles.com/bilbylorenz.htm), "Yankee and Rebel buyers eagerly snapped up Lorenz-style rifle-muskets; the Union recorded purchases of 226, 924 and the Confederacy bought as many as 100,000. "
That may or may not inform an discussion on likelyhood of CS use of this piece b/c the numbers do not cover all Austrian weapons or the specific pieces in question, nor does it preclude CS use of battlefield pick-up or otherwise captured US purchased Austrian weapons.

The same article addresses the tubelocks in small measure, if such a topic is of interest, near the bottom of the article.

And Mr Bilby's article "The Lorenz" is worth a read, anyhow: http://www.washingtonbluerifles.com/bilbylorenz.htm

[brown]

Do we have a winner in the M1850 Austrian carbine, of which 10,000 were purchased for the US Army by Schuyler? check out the first entry on page 90. http://books.google.com/books?id=QK39J3Tlt2sC&pg=PA88&lpg=PA88&dq=austria+tubelock+civil+war&source=bl&ots=ErFZ1JLgxw&sig=WBq_iX6zaDrNfozW3EHBWLwKnew&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result#PPA90,M1

Is there any rifling?
Even the conversion in this picture is the same, the hammer the same, the trigger guard.

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

Ahem, ahem....
"M1850" carbine? ;) :)

Here are a few pics of an Austrian M1842 carbine in pitted condition:

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y104/Michael1787/austrian20carbine0002.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y104/Michael1787/austrian20carbine0004.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y104/Michael1787/austrian20carbine0007.jpg

Schuyler acquired 10,051 foreign carbines of six types for $66,193,00.

I would have to go through the Huse referecnes, as off the top of my head I remember Huse securing M1854 "Lorenz" rifles. But there was some negotiating between Boker and the Fruewirths.

Curt

[brown]

Curt,
Could these titles be the difference between modern references? They look alike to me. Does the one you posted have the filled holes from the conversion to percussion?

[Citizen_Soldier]

Greetings,
A number of Austrian tube-locks were imported by Fremont into the western theater of operations in the autumn of 1861, some of which were issued with the tube lock ignition still in place. I'm away from files but I think the Cinncinatti depot converted many of these to percussion along with rifling them. More can be found in Edward's book on Civil War guns...there's a ton of material in there on Austrians....even though it's a somewhat dated source.

Darrek Orwig

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

Herr Lindsay...

IMHO... what I think might be happening is that some authors look at a stamped date on a gun and make that a model year. A parallel would be say a contract M1861 being made in 1864 being referred to as a "M1864" Springfield.
Reenactors do it too. I sometimes see M1842's being sold as M1847's."

I think you are thinking of conversions or alterations from flintlock to caplock, where there are the lockplate holes for the former frizzen spring or remnant of the pan.

Curt

[riverratmess]

First off, thank you everyone for all your help.

On the lockplate, its stamped 852.
There's what also appears to be a maker's mark on it which resembles a double headed eagle with a crown on top of it.

On the barrel nearest the hammer it's stamped,
5. E.
69.

It's also definetly rifled. The rifling seems to be a lot more distinct then other originals I've seen.

In regards to it being an 1842 Austrian tube lock Cav carbine converted to percussion cap. It does bear a striking resemblance except this one doesn't have any brass on it.


I think when I re-display it I'm taking off the "Used by Confederate cavalry" and just put what it is. I have no documentation to back that claim up whatsoever. Its a shame past directors didn't put it through the ringer like I am.

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

If I recall correctly without looking it up.. I believe the M1842 carbines were all iron mounted, and the 14.5 inch barrels were "multi-groove" rifling of the Delvigne system with 12 grooves.

Initially they had no provision for mounting a ramrod, that being carried separately. However as with the images I posted, ramrods were sometimes retro-fitted.

Curt

[fortdonelsonrelics]

All the ones I have seen are all iron mounted, some with very distinct rifling as previously mentioned. I have attached an image that somewhat outlines this.

In regards to the conversion, I have also seen these with the "Belgian" or cone converstion as well, with the hammer designed for such.

John Walsh

[Prodical Reb]

applying some logic, I can't see Union Cavalry men using this type of arm with all of the breech loading(Sharps, Maynard, Burnside, Smith, etc) and repeating (Henry, Spencer, Colt) weapons issued. I just can't believe Union Men were that hard up for this 2nd rate weapon. I could however see a Confederate Cavalry man carrying and using it until the close of the war. as they didn't have the "modern" ;) weapons unless stolen, picked up or confiscated from a Union source. I wouldn't have any 2nd thought connecting it to a CS use. It would be great to have documents in hand proving CS lineage. Maybe it is there at the museum and just not re-discovered yet. You could start with where the Austrian came from (eg. who donated or who was it purchsed from' and try to work back. Who knows you may get lucky, but chances are you won't )

[fortdonelsonrelics]

applying some logic, I can't see Union Cavalry men using this type of arm with all of the breech loading(Sharps, Maynard, Burnside, Smith, etc) and repeating (Henry, Spencer, Colt) weapons issued. I just can't believe Union Men were that hard up for this 2nd rate weapon.

The key term here is 'Western'. Alot of the Western Federal Army (including Cavalry) were issued, what would be considered 2nd rate weapons during the initial stages of the war, especially early 1861 through early 1862.

Henry, Spencer, and Colt shouldn't be included in this context as many were initially private purchases, most occuring around 1863 and were not issued as a rule until late war.

John Walsh

[fortdonelsonrelics]

1st Regiment Illinois Cavalry:

May 6th, 1861: 100 Sharps Carbines
July 1861: 139 Horse Pistols
July 1861: 146 Musketoons

In several of the early Illinois units I see alot of up to 1863:

Halls Carbines
Sharps Carbines
Smith Carbines

Then going into 1863 you see more:

Burnsides
Merrills
Cosmopolitans
Sharps
etc.

John Walsh

[fortdonelsonrelics]

http://www.kansasguardmuseum.org/2ksvls.html

In the month of October, 1861, A. C. Davis, of Wyandotte county, Kansas obtained authority from Major General Fremont, then commanding the Western Department, to raise a regiment of Cavalry in the State of Kansas, and reported to the Governor for instructions.

2nd Kansas Cavalry:

"On the 16th of March, arms, consisting of Hall's carbines, Austrian carbines and French revolvers, were issued to the men, and company M, Captain John E. Stewart, reported and was assigned its place in line."


John Walsh

[Prodical Reb]

The key term here is 'Western'. Alot of the Western Federal Army (including Cavalry) were issued, what would be considered 2nd rate weapons during the initial stages of the war, especially early 1861 through early 1862.

Henry, Spencer, and Colt shouldn't be included in this context as many were initially private purchases, most occuring around 1863 and were not issued as a rule until late war.

John Walsh

John
I agree w/you. I thought about putting 63 and later in my post but then I decided not to. Silly Me:cry_smile. Early war both sides had a lot of 2nd rate weapons. This wasn't limited to one theater or another (East, West or Frontier-west of Mississippi). Everybody was pretty short on good, rifled .58 cal fireams. Johnny-on-the-spot Euro arms salesman dumped many old weapons in the haste to arm both sides at first. This is a great example! Althoiugh it was a rifled carbine.

By '63 (Gettysburg - 1st day Union Cav armed w/breech-loaders held off CS infantry) the Northern Arms mfg's had started cranking out the modern weapons to be widely issued to Cav troopers. The South never had this industrial/technological base to pull from as the North did. Thus the CS trooper was limited to whatever he could get his hands on and used to the end. (of the war or weapon's servicability which ever came first)