English Blue Grey Kersey

[DBURT]

Hi Everyone

A couple of questions on the English imported blue grey kersey.
Does anyone know which firm in Manchester England produced this
cloth ?
And what did the British army use it for,when the standard British coat was scarlet ?

Many thanks
Dave Burt Co G 18th VA ACWS UK :confused:

[markj]

Hi Everyone

A couple of questions on the English imported blue grey kersey.
Does anyone know which firm in Manchester England produced this
cloth ?
And what did the British army use it for,when the standard British coat was scarlet ?

Many thanks
Dave Burt Co G 18th VA ACWS UK :confused:

Greetings,

I e-mailed an English uniform researcher acquaintance of mine about your question but he wasn't aware of a Manchester firm that produced this type of cloth. Are you perhaps thinking of the Irish enterprise of Peter Tait?

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[DBURT]

Greetings,

I e-mailed an English uniform researcher acquaintance of mine about your question but he wasn't aware of a Manchester firm that produced this type of cloth. Are you perhaps thinking of the Irish enterprise of Peter Tait?

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

Hi Mark

According to surviving records the first shipment of this English Army Cloth used for enlisted clothing was purchased in Manchester England by Major J B Ferguson in April 1863.This is according to the New Richmond Depot catalogue by Chris White
I always thought S Issac Campbell of London produced this Cloth.
Iknow Tait Also used the same Cloth,but did his firm produce it or was it imported from England
Dave Burt ACWS England

[Tom Ezell]

A couple of questions on the English imported blue grey kersey. Does anyone know which firm in Manchester England produced this cloth ?

And what did the British army use it for,when the standard British coat was scarlet ?

Abimelich Hainsworth company, textile producers in England, still produce the same blue-grey cloth that was shipped through the blockade, and also used in the making of the Tait jackets. County Cloth's old "K-7 Kersey" came from this source.

This material is currently being produced for the manufacture of overcoats for several British Guard regiments.

As for the standard British coats, they weren't all red. Various regiments in the Queen's service differed widely from one another in their uniforms. There was a great deal of uniformity within the regiment, but from one to another, there were often significant differences... Compare, for example the uniform of the Coldstream Guard with that of the Black Watch to the Queen's Household Cavalry. With respect to the dress uniforms, many of the Queen's regiments are still that way.

Way over in Limerick, I understand that the oiginal records of the Peter Tait Company are still stashed somewhere, if anyone has an interest in that direction...

Tom

[markj]

Hi Mark

According to surviving records the first shipment of this English Army Cloth used for enlisted clothing was purchased in Manchester England by Major J B Ferguson in April 1863.This is according to the New Richmond Depot catalogue by Chris White
I always thought S Issac Campbell of London produced this Cloth.
Iknow Tait Also used the same Cloth,but did his firm produce it or was it imported from England
Dave Burt ACWS England

Hi Dave,

Thanks for the info. You might want to contact Mr. Ron Field, a countryman of yours, as he is currently working on a book about Confederate uniforms, equipage, &c., &c. Here is his e-mail:

RDFSWELL@aol.com

Tell him Mark Jaeger sent you. I'm currently supplying him interesting information from the Jackson, Mississippi "Weekly Missippian."

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[DBURT]

Mark
Many thanks for giving me Ron Fields email address.
I got a reply from him this morning, and he thinks that the blue grey Kersey was used for British army trousers at that time.
I think I might have found out who the Manchester Firm was who major JB
Ferguson bought the first lot of material from,Ithink it was Alexander Collie &
Co, who had a factory in Manchester at the time.
Of course if anyone has any further information......
Dave Burt ACWS UK

[Clark Badgett]

I am not real sure but I think Brit overcoats as well as trowsers may have been made of the B/G cloth. I seem to remember seeing it somewhere in some article I read about Brit uniforms and equipage many years ago, but for the life of me can't recall which one.

[Jimmayo]

Has anyone compared the English Army Cloth from England with the product being manufactured in the US? I have seen it in two thickness from several different vendors.

[SCTiger]

Jim,

Did the Coleman 6th SC Tait jacket originally have wooden buttons in place of the current SC state buttons that now decorate it? It seems to me that I viewed an earlier picture of the same jacket and it had wooden dish buttons.
Has someone altered the jacket?

Also I have done alot of searching but, I have found no other photos of the ACW era English Blue Grey Kersey. There have been many stories in both theaters that SC troops were identifiable by these unique uniforms, to possibly include the 26th SC in the Mississippi Campaign.

[Blum]

Here is the url of the firm :

http://www.abimelech.co.uk/index2.html

[Iron Scout]

Greg,

Just as a point of clarification, Coleman's jacket is a Type III. The jacket, when discovered in a building in Chester, SC, already had the SC buttons attached. There's no way to know what originally came on it unfortunately.

As for the good QM Major in England, we must remember that Ferguson was sent to England by Lawton to handle the QM purchases for the central depot in Richmond. He also arranged shipments into Texas too I believe. He was extended a line of credit from the Erlanger loan out of Paris and began dealing with several "houses", Alex. Collie being one. Collie, like I&C, were dealers per se and didn't always manufacture their own goods but rather contracted them from the makers themselves. They were the true "middlemen" if you will. Now, Ferguson arrived on the scene in 1863 and immediately got involved in a turf war with Caleb Huse who was purchasing for the Ord Dept since 1861. Even in 1862, Huse purchases lots of English and some French ordnance goods but also shipped QM goods like, trousers, blankets and overcoats on his own. This was part of the rub. If you'll consult the last volumes of Confederate Correspondence in the ORs you'll see that in 1862 he shipped some 8000 pair of trousers and a similar number of overcoats. In the first few months of 1863, he already has 13,000 pairs of trousers purchased and awaiting shipment. From all of this, I believe English trousers and other goods, but not jackets, were making their way into the Confederacy before many people think. Hope some this helps.

Regards,

Neill Rose
PLHA
L&W

[DougCooper]

Neil is right - as has been covered before, US Navy OR's mention captures of blockade runners with imported blue gray cloth (wool) in both bails of uniforms and raw cloth in late 62 on the Texas Gulf Coast. These are fascinating reading - will attempt to find the old thread. Some of the cloth received left Houston for the east but was prevented from crossing the River by Dick Taylor, and was made up into uniforms in the early Spring of 63 by troops in Louisiana. Several descriptions survive.

BG kersey was being made up into uniforms in the TMD as soon as it began arriving.

Remember also that some RD 2 jackets in the cloth exist, such as the Marsh jacket in EoG (NC officer) that dates from before May 63 (owner wounded at Chancellorsville).

[hireddutchcutthroat]

I always thought S Issac Campbell of London produced this Cloth.
Iknow Tait Also used the same Cloth,but did his firm produce it or was it imported from England


Im not certain that S. Issac and Campbell made anything. I am under the understanding that they were more or less a surplus dealer.

[SCTiger]

So it's possible that the English BG Kersey could have been seen in the TMD, Charleston, and the ANV all at once? Albeit in different forms from early 1863 onward. I will try to locate my Union reference about those SC boys in their "bluish" uniforms.

Thanks Neil.

[tmdreb]

That's right, Greg. From the evidence we have at this time, it looks like it was most likely in the TMD first, in late '62, and made its arrival in the East a little bit later, around the Winter and Spring of 1863. However, a while back, I did find a reference to a uniform shipment to the East from Europe in 1861, (and posted it here) but there were not enough details given as to the type of cloth used.

Personally, I think we need to see more of the stuff on CS reenactors in all theaters, but there are still those around who seem to think that if it's not jean, it's farb.

[markj]

I am not real sure but I think Brit overcoats as well as trowsers may have been made of the B/G cloth. I seem to remember seeing it somewhere in some article I read about Brit uniforms and equipage many years ago, but for the life of me can't recall which one.

This doesn't say anything about the cloth used in the coat but it may nonetheless be interesting:

MILITARY SURTOUT--The new great-coat adopted in the British army is thus described: Double over the shoulders, no cape, partly double down the back and in the sleeves to below the elbows, two capacious porkers behind [sic], the edges piped with red, a band also piped confining the coat to the wearer's back at pleasure, shoulder straps for the belts are also piped, and the forepart of the skirts made to loop back to the waist when on the march.

(Source: Petersburg VA Daily Express, 12 February 1861)

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[1stMaine]

Comrades,

Abimelich Hainsworth produces a blue-grey army cloth today which is used for the British Army's Guards Regiments overcoats. The British Army used a bluish-grey material for it's overcoats from the Napoleonic period onwards, with only a few deviations in color for specific regiments.

As to the English Army cloth being used in the ANV, I am convinced that it was available and used for uniforms as early as the summer of 1863. After Gettysburg, a large portion of Longstreet's corps was reclothed prior to moving west. The Texas Brigade received issues at this time, and contemporary accounts comment upon it being a bluish-cast. In fact, the Texans were fired upon at Chickamagua by other CS forces, being mistaken for Federal troops because of the bluish cast of their uniforms. I don't have the book here right now, but I'll post the references later if folks want them. A lot of them can be found in Harold Simpson's book "Hood's Texas Brigade, Lee's Grenadier Guards".

Regarding Peter Tait and Co., Tait did not produce any cloth, but DID produce clothing, especially shirts, and like I&C, outsourced some work. Tait was a supplier, in fact, FOR Isaac & Campbell, and in that regard, could very well have been the source of clothing shipped over to the south by the latter firm.

respects,

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Comrades,


As to the English Army cloth being used in the ANV, I am convinced that it was available and used for uniforms as early as the summer of 1863. After Gettysburg, a large portion of Longstreet's corps was reclothed prior to moving west. The Texas Brigade received issues at this time, and contemporary accounts comment upon it being a bluish-cast. In fact, the Texans were fired upon at Chickamagua by other CS forces, being mistaken for Federal troops because of the bluish cast of their uniforms.
,

The blue shade of the ANVs uniforms caused quite abit of confusion on both sides at Chickamauga. There were instances were US troops held their fire due to the fact that they thought Longstreets men were friendly. (Having their colors cased didnt help either)

[Peachfuz]

To back what Mr. Rose stated above, and that English goods (cloth in particular) was available in the East as early as mid-’62 here is an exert from a letter from James Henry Reid while at VMI dated 8/18/62.
“One of my roommates Read S has gone to Lynchburg (you have probably seen him before this) on furlough. Please send by him some undershirts for it is very cold up here. I was on guard about 2'oclock last night & had nothing but my white clothes on, I very near froze. I would write for my thick winter coat but Gen. Smith recd a letter yesterday from Charleston saying the cloth had run the blockade & arrived safely. It will be here in a few days, so I will try & stand it as my order for Jacket, pants & overcoat is 3rd in the list & Mr. Vanderslice will soon make it. Gen. Smith says he has $30,000 worth of cloth about 15,000 yards or more because it did not cost $2 per yard in Europe. "