Technical discussions and information about Henry and Spencer Rifles

[MarkTK36thIL]

Where's CHS when you need him?

Were Spencer rifle bayonets sized differently than muskets? Will an original fit?Spencer Rifle Bayonet (http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,19526.0.html)

[trippcor]

No one is making a repro bayonet for the spencer however it is very similar to a standard Springfield Bayonet. According to Curt Schmit on another forum he was able to get a Springfield bayonet to fit a Spencer. From what I could find only about 11,000 bayonets were producted for the Spencer. I have no idea if an original will fit a repro gun. But at $750 or so a pop I don't think many of us will have one.

[thad gallagher]

Found this website showing an Enfield bayonet on a Spencer Rifle.

http://armscollectors.com/mgs/spencer_repeating_rifle.htm

So if the Blakeslee cartridge box wasn't common in the field until late '64, what was the common practice to carry your spencer ammunition without one? Did one keep the rounds loose in their regular issue box?

[trippcor]

I will need to go and check back with some of the Critters but I believe their research showed that many men carried their rounds in a standard cartridge box that they removed the tins from and used the actual boxes the rounds were issued in to organize the rounds in the cartridge box. Coley told me that they have tried it that way in the field and it seems to work well.

[brown]

Tripp,
Harvey Cash showed me a similiar account from Wilder's Brigade of the men removing the tins from their old cartridge boxes, and also using pockets to hold rounds, b/c they often carried more rounds than their cartridge box could hold.

[44 Henry]

First I would like to say that it is great that someone is planning on doing another Henry Impression in Civil War reenacting. The Henry Rifle has been a hobby of mine for over 30 years. The two greatest resourses dealing with the Henry Rifle and its uses during the Civil War are the book by Ren Barker entitled Company "D", 66th Illinois: Birge's Western Sharpshooters in the Civil War, 1861-1865 and the book “The Henry Repeating Rifle” by Andrew L. Bresnan that can be found at http://www.rarewinchesters.com/articles/art_hen_00.shtml
Both of these resources are excellent. The down side is that Barker’s book is out of print.

In 1989 at Franklin and through the early 1990s a National Henry Rifle Company was formed and participated in several national reenactments including Bentonville, Franklin, Chickamauga, Spring Hill, Resaca and several others. It was great to have 15 to 20 Henrys at an event. Unfortunately the Henry Rifle for use in reenactments has been misunderstood for a long time. The Henry and the Spencer were considered the assault rifle of its day and was used as such. So to buy a Henry and fire no faster than a muzzleloader is a misuse of the Henry and it’s firepower. The research will bear this out. An example was Allatoona Pass, GA where the 7th Illinois fired over 31,000 in 2 hours of fighting with having less than 200 Henrys. Depending on the reenactment the ammunition required should be in the neighborhood of 300 to 500 rounds. It sounds like a lot of ammo but if you are engaged in a battle you will know exactly what I mean. In researching Henry tactics you will find that the rapidity of fire is what is mentioned frequently. It is mentioned how fast they worked the levers on their rifles, firing 90 rounds non-stop, and working the levers like pump handles. Plan for the unpredictable by having enough ammo for the event. To be caught short of ammo means all you have is a useless fancy club with an empty Henry.

Blanks can be very expensive when using a Henry rifle. The use of plastic blanks is not a good choice however several have used the plastic blank and I guess they will work if nothing else is available. Plastic blanks do have several problems and safety concerns. These concerns include the following: 1. the extractor will rip through the rim of the plastic case at times causing a case stuck in the chamber. 2. plastic residue will accumulate in the barrel causing a dangerous and difficult to clean mess, 3. When the chamber heats up with firing the plastic will have a tendency to again stick in the barrel, 4. Plastic rounds have been known to cook off in a hot barrel, 5. Another big issue especially if we want to look authentic is the plastic round itself, it just doesn’t look right nor does it sound like a Civil War rifle.

Blanks loaded in brass cases can be very expensive. If you are going to buy blanks make sure that they are FULL LENGTH blanks, the length of a live round. Some manufacturers sell blanks for use in pistols such as for the SASS Cowboy shooters. These will not function in your .44-40 Henry as they will be too short and will cause the Henry to jam. Starline makes the proper length case but are again very expensive. If buying from Swanson make sure the price that is quoted is for the FULL LENGTH blanks, the length of a live round. Another concern when using black powder in your blanks is the fact that fouling will be a big problem after 20 to 30 rounds. If using plastic rounds with smokeless powder that fouling problem is not an issue but they do not sound like a Civil War weapon going off, another reason why not to use plastic.
The current made Henry as produced by Uberti has only a 13 round magazine capacity. The real Henry had a magazine capacity of 16 for the shorter earlier .44 Henry cartridge and 15 round capacity for the redesigned Henry cartridge of 1864. Several of us have converted our Henrys to shoot a blank loaded in a .44 Magnum brass to make the Henry a true 16-17 shooter counting the round in the chamber. If you load your own blanks using the .44 Magnum cases the cost is only about $23 per 100 blanks. Used Henry rifles can be purchased for between $750 and $900 depending on where you look. The SASS web site has used ones for sell from time to time. A warning concerning acquiring a new Henry is to be careful of the magazine slot, these can be very sharp and can cut you. A small file can cure that problem. Also when buying a Henry it is best to get one with a sling on it or if you buy one without a sling mount you might want to put one on. It comes in very handy on a long march.

Carrying blanks at the event can be done by using a haversack, any make of cartridge box or a Henry cartridge box. Henry cartridge boxes were not common nor were they an issued item. Most Civil War soldiers using a Henry carried rounds in whatever way was best suited for them. Cartridge belts were not in wide use either, in fact maybe only one or 2 were even used.

If you are going to carry a Henry rifle you should know how to take care of it in the field. In fact I have replaced firing pins, main springs, etc. in the field at events. So have the tools to work on your Henry with you or you might be down and out.

I hope the above information is useful as there is no need to reinvent the wheel if it is not necessary. I am looking forward to attending this event.
Andy

[Peachfuz]

Found this on the N-SSA board regarding the Armisport Spencer: http://www.n-ssa.org/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=10451

[44 Henry]

First I would like to say that it is great that someone is planning on doing another Henry Impression in Civil War reenacting. The Henry Rifle has been a hobby of mine for over 30 years. The two greatest resourses dealing with the Henry Rifle and its uses during the Civil War are the book by Ren Barker entitled Company "D", 66th Illinois: Birge's Western Sharpshooters in the Civil War, 1861-1865 and the book “The Henry Repeating Rifle” by Andrew L. Bresnan that can be found at http://www.rarewinchesters.com/articles/art_hen_00.shtml
Both of these resources are excellent. The down side is that Barker’s book is out of print.

In 1989 at Franklin and through the early 1990s a National Henry Rifle Company was formed and participated in several national reenactments including Bentonville, Franklin, Chickamauga, Spring Hill, Resaca and several others. It was great to have 15 to 20 Henrys at an event. Unfortunately the Henry Rifle for use in reenactments has been misunderstood for a long time. The Henry and the Spencer were considered the assault rifle of its day and was used as such. So to buy a Henry and fire no faster than a muzzleloader is a misuse of the Henry and it’s firepower. The research will bear this out. An example was Allatoona Pass, GA where the 7th Illinois fired over 31,000 in 2 hours of fighting with having less than 200 Henrys. Depending on the reenactment the ammunition required should be in the neighborhood of 300 to 500 rounds. It sounds like a lot of ammo but if you are engaged in a battle you will know exactly what I mean. In researching Henry tactics you will find that the rapidity of fire is what is mentioned frequently. It is mentioned how fast they worked the levers on their rifles, firing 90 rounds non-stop, and working the levers like pump handles. Plan for the unpredictable by having enough ammo for the event. To be caught short of ammo means all you have is a useless fancy club with an empty Henry.

Blanks can be very expensive when using a Henry rifle. The use of plastic blanks is not a good choice however several have used the plastic blank and I guess they will work if nothing else is available. Plastic blanks do have several problems and safety concerns. These concerns include the following: 1. the extractor will rip through the rim of the plastic case at times causing a case stuck in the chamber. 2. plastic residue will accumulate in the barrel causing a dangerous and difficult to clean mess, 3. When the chamber heats up with firing the plastic will have a tendency to again stick in the barrel, 4. Plastic rounds have been known to cook off in a hot barrel, 5. Another big issue especially if we want to look authentic is the plastic round itself, it just doesn’t look right nor does it sound like a Civil War rifle.

Blanks loaded in brass cases can be very expensive. If you are going to buy blanks make sure that they are FULL LENGTH blanks, the length of a live round. Some manufacturers sell blanks for use in pistols such as for the SASS Cowboy shooters. These will not function in your .44-40 Henry as they will be too short and will cause the Henry to jam. Starline makes the proper length case but are again very expensive. If buying from Swanson make sure the price that is quoted is for the FULL LENGTH blanks, the length of a live round. Another concern when using black powder in your blanks is the fact that fouling will be a big problem after 20 to 30 rounds. If using plastic rounds with smokeless powder that fouling problem is not an issue but they do not sound like a Civil War weapon going off, another reason why not to use plastic.
The current made Henry as produced by Uberti has only a 13 round magazine capacity. The real Henry had a magazine capacity of 16 for the shorter earlier .44 Henry cartridge and 15 round capacity for the redesigned Henry cartridge of 1864. Several of us have converted our Henrys to shoot a blank loaded in a .44 Magnum brass to make the Henry a true 16-17 shooter counting the round in the chamber. If you load your own blanks using the .44 Magnum cases the cost is only about $23 per 100 blanks. Used Henry rifles can be purchased for between $750 and $900 depending on where you look. The SASS web site has used ones for sell from time to time. A warning concerning acquiring a new Henry is to be careful of the magazine slot, these can be very sharp and can cut you. A small file can cure that problem. Also when buying a Henry it is best to get one with a sling on it or if you buy one without a sling mount you might want to put one on. It comes in very handy on a long march.

Carrying blanks at the event can be done by using a haversack, any make of cartridge box or a Henry cartridge box. Henry cartridge boxes were not common nor were they an issued item. Most Civil War soldiers using a Henry carried rounds in whatever way was best suited for them. Cartridge belts were not in wide use either, in fact maybe only one or 2 were even used.

If you are going to carry a Henry rifle you should know how to take care of it in the field. In fact I have replaced firing pins, main springs, etc. in the field at events. So have the tools to work on your Henry with you or you might be down and out.

I hope the above information is useful as there is no need to reinvent the wheel if it is not necessary. I am looking forward to attending this event.
Andy Bresnan
National Henry Rifle Company
7th Illinois Veteran Volunteer Infantry
ICSS
66th Illinois Infantry WSS

[country rifle]

Fellow Enthusiasts,

Has any thought been given to converting the newly acquired Henrys so that they will be correct as true 16 shooters?

The repop Henry rifles right out of the box will not be 16 shooters and thus incorrect for use in an 1860's envrionment.

A little food for thought.

Sincerely,

Robert Leinweber
ICSS

[Dan Wambaugh]

Rob,

How exactly is that accomplished? Is that an at home "in the workshop" process or something that would require the rifle to be sent to a gunsmith? I for one would certainly be interested in getting the rifle as authentic and get any bugs worked out before the event. Knowing that you have been carrying a Henry for 10-15 years I know I speak for everyone who is considering plunking $900+ on a Henry when I say any advice or information you can offer will be greatly appreciated.


Best,

Dan

[country rifle]

Fellow Henry Enthusiasts,

The process to convert the repop Henry into a true 16 shooter is a fairly simple one.

It requires a slight modification to the carrier and the bolt to allow the use of a smaller cartridge which more correctly mimics the size of the original 44 Henry cartridge.

The first few conversions were done by gunsmiths in their shops. However, our riflemen are very resourceful and after looking it over carefully other conversions have been done by our own riflemen. A good drill, tap and die set and a Dremel tool are the main items.

Depending on your level of mechanical prowess, possession of basic tools and intestinal fortitude most folks could probably do it themselves.

Sadly the fellow who would really be the best source of help on all matters Henry, Andy Bresnan, was blocked by the Mod from posting historical and safety oriented information. According to the Mod it was deemed as "drifting into farb land."

Mr. Bresnan is the resident Henry historian of our unit with well over 20 years of research and experience with the Henry Rifle. Suffice to say that he knows the metallic creature inside and out. He can save you folks a lot of headaches with his level of knowledge concerning historical, mechanical and practical matters of the Henry.

I defer to Mr. Bresnan's expertise as it far exceeds my own.

Sincerely,

Rob


Robert Leinweber
ICSS

[Dan Wambaugh]

Rob,

That is a shame. I personally consider the Henry to be the most complicated CW firearm that saw wide use, and I feel that we will definitely need to draw on the experience of folks like yourself and Mr. Bresnan if we hope to put two dozen guys who have never handled the rifle into the field. I'm wondering even if most of the fellows know to bring a pair of gloves to the event. Even though this won't be a real "shooting" event those rifles can heat up amazingly fast, I once had a 6" long burn scar for the better part of a year on my face and neck after my Sharps barrel pressed into me at an event, and that was only after 15-20 rounds.

I personally will be grateful for any advice offered on these rifles from you folks who have been handling them for two decades. That's WAY too much money to spend on a wall hanger that I'm afraid to shoot!


Best,

Dan

[JimKindred]

Fellows,


A little more food for thought, just bare in mind that to modify these new rifles voids any warranty offered.

Fellow Enthusiasts,

Has any thought been given to converting the newly acquired Henrys so that they will be correct as true 16 shooters?

The repop Henry rifles right out of the box will not be 16 shooters and thus incorrect for use in an 1860's envrionment.

A little food for thought.

Sincerely,

Robert Leinweber
ICSS

[country rifle]

Fellow Henry Enthusiasts,

Even more food for thought.

I cannot comment on what will or will not void any warranty offered since I have not been in contact with Uberti or other such companies to confirm their policies. To date none of our riflemen have had any issues arise which would have involved the warranty. I would encourage each owner to verify that for himself.

However, some riflemen have procured an extra carrier as well as an extra bolt in order to have a converted configuration as well as an original configuration. The parts are not that hard to switch out and allow a rifleman the versatility to have a sixteen shooter for re-enacting or return it to its original configuration for live shooting.

Henry rifles used in the American Civil war were sixteen shooters. Sometimes a seventeen shooter depending on the ammunition used.

Sincerely,

Rob Leinweber


Fellows,


A little more food for thought, just bare in mind that to modify these new rifles voids any warranty offered.

[country rifle]

Fellow Henry Enthusiasts,

Actually we do maintain a very simple website. It is more of a way to make sure that we have some sort of a presence on the web. However, it is not any type of gathering point for our members.

http://www.geocities.com/country_rifle/icss.html

Nearly all of are planning, organizing and communications takes place via email and cell phone. Make technology work for you not the other way around.

This allows us to spend more of our time researching and re-enacting as opposed to spending time on a website.

Our particular organization is a cooperative effort among riflemen from all over the country. Different riflemen attend different events based upon what appeals to them. Sometimes we have had riflemen from West Virginia and sometimes we have had men from California. Our core group is located primarily in the states of Illinois, Indiana, Wisconsin, Michigan and Minnesota.

I am a bit puzzled by the request of wondering what a Henry Company looks like. To clear up any misconceptions a Henry armed unit would basically look exactly like all of the units around it. No special badge or insignia. The only difference would be the presence of a Henry of course and the lack of a bayonet.

Hope this helps.

Now back to the Henry discussion.

Sincerely,

Robert Leinweber
ICSS

[country rifle]

Fellow Henry Rifle Enthusiasts,

A good piece of Henry information is free and available on line.

It is an excellent way for any of you who will be new to Henry ownership to get an idea of the piece of history you will be holding in your hands.

It is a lengthy read but it is jammed full of information and worth the time of anybody who is serious about Henry rifles.

You can thank Mr. Bresnan for making this available to the masses free of charge.

http://www.rarewinchesters.com/articles/art_hen_00.shtml

Warning! This may be considered material which may lead to a drift into "farb land." LOL!

My apologies for the momentary loss of restraint.

Enjoy!

Sincerely,

Robert Leinweber
ICSS

[trippcor]

I have started this thread as a spine off from the Spencer and Henry Rifle WIG sponsored Bummers buy thread. The thread had moved off in two directions and I wanted to separate technical questions and information about the weapons (both original and reproduction) from the discussion about the Bummers Buy.

[M.Latham]

Yes, they are different in bore diameters.

1855-1861 Springfield/ Harper's Ferry = .781-.783

Spencer rifle = .821

Sharp's rifle = .818

Spencer bayonets are also somtimes confused with Sharp's rifle bayonets.

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

I was at the movies with my wife, seeing the new comedy "The Curious Case of Benjamin Button."

;) :)

Moderator hat on...

Rarely if never, does the full story and discussions of AC Forum moderators in taking action get shared here... If anyone feels a decision or action was wrong, please feel free to contact the site owner or administrators please.

Moderator hat off...

Let's see... catch up...

1. NUG, an Italian or Pakistani repro M1855 socket bayonet will NOT fit on a Spencer Rifle due to the diameter of its barrel. One can either shop in a trial-and-error effort to find one that does.
OR, as I did for mine, "Dremel" out the inside diameter of the repro bayonet to fit the Spencer. (That is tricky as one does not want to start with a too-thin socket wall thickness for obvious reasons...)

2. It would appear that Spencer rounds (as were Henry rounds with the exception of the rare or even non-issued "Henry box.") were often carried in standard .58 cartridge boxes retroffitted by replacing the tins with the appropriate size drilled out wooden blocks as was done for a number of the new metallic cartridge rifles and carbines).

Of course that is a mine field as to what may have been done in say 1863 versus what was done in 1868 using the same boxes.

The only known surviving image of Spencer armed Sharpshooters in the field is one of the 7th ICOVSS, and of course, one cannot see "inside" of their boxes.

3. I recall reading a posting once upon a time, of CAS/SASS Henry or Winchester lads removing the follower "head" and replacing it with a shorter one to allow the extra round. But I do not remember where or when that was. (a greater problem with the longer modern .45 Long Colt rounds or even .44 WCF over the nominal pointed or post 1864 blunt 1.35 inch long .44 Henry RF).

And I will not even mention shortening the magazine spring....

Curt

[country rifle]

Fellow Riflemen,

The conversion of a modern Henry to a true 16 shooter does not require any modification to any other parts except the carrier and the bolt.

Such items as the "magazine spring" and "follower head" remain untouched.

That is what makes it so nice and quick with regards to swapping out parts to put it back into factory configuration with minimal cost in parts.

Rapid fire and authenticity at a price anyone can afford.

Sincerely,

Rob Leinweber
ICSS

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

"Rapid fire and authenticity at a price anyone can afford."

Authenticity...

What are the modifications again needed to shoot .44 Henry RF?

Just a-funnin'.

;) :)

Curt

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

Moderator hat on...

Let's rein this back in...

The M1860 was had a 15 round magazine capacity.

Where this has strayed across the No Farbery Line is in the post that either:

1. Did not know a Henry was a 15 round and not a 16 round rifle

or

2. Wanted to expand the magazine to add one more blank round for greater rapid fire.

I had given my answer based upon problems experienced in that the modern Henry repro's are not "authentic" .44 Henry RF but rather .45 Long Colt (CF) or .44 WCF (aka .44-40).
The magazine and the carrier/bolt is sensitive to overall cartridge length (case plus bullet), and gets complicated when .45 Long Colt, .44 Magnum, or .44 Special brass is used (subject to overal cartridge length).

"Modifying" for an additional blank round to give one an extra shot would be akin to modifying a Colt revolver for a seventh shot to get "one more shot off."

Curt

(Then as now, a cartridge could be placed in the chamber, making a Henry a "16 shot" arm. Does research and documentation show it was it done?)

[44 Henry]

Let me post the correction to your post. Teacher Hat on(for 33 years)

1st there was never a M1860 in regards to the Henry Rifle. The designation M1860 is a modern designation used by today’s manufacturers and importers.

2nd the Henry rifle had a magazine capacity of 16 rounds plus one in the chamber for 17 when using the early Henry ammunition which was slightly shorter. The Henry had a 15 round magazine capacity when using the later cartridges of 1864 plus one in the chamber giving it a 16 round capacity.

Lorenzo Barker of the 66th Illinois Infantry WSS book is an excellent source of Henry information.

Andrew L. Bresnan
National Henry Rifle Company
7th Illinois Veteran Volunteer Infantry
66th Illinois Infantry WSS
ICSS


Hallo!

Moderator hat on...

Let's rein this back in...

The M1860 was had a 15 round magazine capacity.

Where this has strayed across the No Farbery Line is in the post that either:

1. Did not know a Henry was a 15 round and not a 16 round rifle

or

2. Wanted to expand the magazine to add one more blank round for greater rapid fire.

I had given my answer based upon problems experienced in that the modern Henry repro's are not "authentic" .44 Henry RF but rather .45 Long Colt (CF) or .44 WCF (aka .44-40).
The magazine and the carrier/bolt is sensitive to overall cartridge length (case plus bullet), and gets complicated when .45 Long Colt, .44 Magnum, or .44 Special brass is used (subject to overal cartridge length).

"Modifying" for an additional blank round to give one an extra shot would be akin to modifying a Colt revolver for a seventh shot to get "one more shot off."

Curt

(Then as now, a cartridge could be placed in the chamber, making a Henry a "16 shot" arm. Does research and documentation show it was it done?)

[Mike Nickerson]

..... Authenticity...

What are the modifications again needed to shoot .44 Henry RF?

Just a-funnin'.

;) :)

Curt

Speaking of authenticity, I'm surprised that it looks like it's going to be a lop-sided purchase of Henrys vs. Spencers. A good estimate of the large weighting of Spencers over Henrys has been posted, yet the majority seems to be leaning toward the "Hollywood" side of the repeating rifle choice. This seems a little funny to me, given the AC's normal "tough love" approach to authenticity!

Mike Nickerson

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

Moderator hat on...

Not so much. The Gold Standard still remains. If a Henry or Spencer is what is researched and documented for the unit, time, and place being portrayed...

For example, I sometimes "do" Company "C" of the 7th Ohio ICVSS- a Spencer rifle armed unit.

Moderator hat off, teacher hat on...

Yes, there is no "M1860" designation for the Henry Repeating Rifle. Much like the "M1858" Remington revolver (M1863), or the "M1816" musket
(M1822), or the "Zouave" rifle (Remington M1863 Contract Rifle) and the legion of numerical and alphabet "typology" we use for identification and clarification- it is not right. Just modern hobby jargon.

And yes. What is documented as common practice of loading an "extra" round into the chamber to expand the magazine so as to be emulatable by reenactors/living historians?
An extra round can be added say, to a Spencer rifle's or carbine's chamber...

Hats off... ;) :)

Curt

[thad gallagher]

I have a couple points I have been pondering on- would a soldier have gotten rid of his cap pouch after getting his Spencer, since he would not need it for firing? Or would he have kept it so he would not have been charged with losing it?

How or what would he haved carried to clean the Spencer- such as the barrel with no ramrod. Would one have gotten a seperate cleaning kit for that time, or did they Spencer come with such implements

Does anyone have a copy of the image of 7th Ohio sharpshooter? I have been searching with no luck.

Are there any good technical, type manuals or reference books on the Spencer?

Sorry for the bombardment of questions, I have been striking out trying to find research materials.

All the best.

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

The image of the 7th Ohio ICVSS shows no cap pouches.

I do not know who has the original image that turned up in the early
1990's.
I have had a copy on the wall since then.

Curt
Company "C," 7th Ohio ICVSS

[GreencoatCross]

http://www.geocities.com/srhackettbr/7thovss2.jpg

Ta Da!

[Will Eichler]

Thad,

The best I've come up with is the book by Marcot on the Spencer, but that is out of print and goes for $70.00. I'm now saving pennies for that as well as for the rifle. Additionally, there is a chapter on the Spencer in John D. McAulay's :Civil War Breech Loading Rifles: A Survey of the Innovative Infantry Arms of the American Civil War" which I was recommended by Dan Wambaugh and have on order. I have two other books by McAulay and love them. He and I are from the same small town in the thumb of MI.

I too am looking for any info on cleaning the durn thing. I'm slowly getting items amassed as far as packaging the ammunition goes.

Best,

Will

[fortdonelsonrelics]

Tripp,
Harvey Cash showed me a similiar account from Wilder's Brigade of the men removing the tins from their old cartridge boxes, and also using pockets to hold rounds, b/c they often carried more rounds than their cartridge box could hold.

The only named 'Spencer' boxes that I have seen are the 'Navy' ones with oversized outer flaps that were shipped with the initial Navy order.

And in Marcott's book, he mentions a Cavalry Box, much like the Burnside, Smith, etc.

There is no mention of Infantry boxes. But like the quote above, for Infantry, I have only seen mention of regular boxes. Both Harvey Cash and Robert Becker confirm this.

John Walsh

[44 Henry]

There is a copy of the Manual of Arms for the Spencer Rifle located in the Marcot book. 23 pages of the manual of arms are copied in the book. Also there are detailed pictures of different types of ammunition as well as boxes. I used an original Spencer Rifle for several years reenacting in the 1980 as well as a Spencer Carbine. I also loaded my own blanks and used the S&S upper block for center fire conversion. The Spencer can be a lot of fun. Also keep in mind that there were about the same number of Spencer rifles as there were Henry rifles used in the war. Spencer rifles number about 12,500 ever made with around 10,000 used in the war. There were around 14,000 Henry rifles made and about 10,000 used in the war.
Andrew L. Bresnan
National Henry Rifle Company
7th Illinois Veteran Volunteer Infantry
66th Illinois Infantry WSS
ICSS

[Ross L. Lamoreaux]

I have a couple points I have been pondering on- would a soldier have gotten rid of his cap pouch after getting his Spencer, since he would not need it for firing? Or would he have kept it so he would not have been charged with losing it?

How or what would he haved carried to clean the Spencer- such as the barrel with no ramrod. Would one have gotten a seperate cleaning kit for that time, or did they Spencer come with such implements

Does anyone have a copy of the image of 7th Ohio sharpshooter? I have been searching with no luck.

Are there any good technical, type manuals or reference books on the Spencer?

Sorry for the bombardment of questions, I have been striking out trying to find research materials.

All the best.

Returns of the 75th Ohio Volunteer Infantry from 1864 showed that after one company was armed with Spencers and turned into mounted infantry in Florida, they turned in their Enfield rifles, cap pouches, and cartridge boxes to be redistributed to the remaining companies in the regiment who were not mounted. There is no mention found of receiving new accoutrements, so there must be some more paperwork out there to be discovered regarding the issuance of new boxes and other accoutrements.

[thad gallagher]

Thank you all, for your guidance and information. Looks like I will be adding to the library.

I did find this manual of arms online, can anyone tell if it is the same one from the Marcot book?

http://www.geocities.com/Pipeline/7475/spencermoa.html

While perusing around I also found this at the Blockade Runner site. You have to scroll down a bit, Spencer Repeating Rifle Hand Book. It says it is a manual they made on the Spencer. Has anyone read it, and is it worth getting?

http://www.blockaderunner.com/Catalog/catpg9.htm

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

Thanks Herr Brian for the image!

I, of all people, should have had one on file to share. ;) :)

Contracts for Spencer rifles typically include language about the "usual appendages" or "regular appendages," or "appendages."
Details are skimpy at best.

However the December 25,1862 Navy letter of inspection from Captain Jonathan Chauncey was more specific:

"They have been packed in boxes of 10 each, with all the accompanying implements, such as bayonets, brushes, cleaning rods and screwdrivers, and are ready for delivery."

The initial delivery included "120 cartridge cases (leather) at $.75 each." and '20 cartridge cases (leather) at $.75 each."

These were at the rate of one box per rifle.

"Spencer" boxes are fuzzy in bistory and rare. A few boxes (aka pouches)are "known" that contain a tin that holds six 7 round packets of Spencer ammo for a total of 42. Others are known with the tin being divided down the middle to separate the six into two sets of three. At any rate, they are believed to be "Spencer" boxes because the measurements of the two belt loop box corresponds to the dimensions of a a full box of SPencer cartridges.
The boxes for the Navy Spencer contract were provided by Spencer not made by them.

And then there are the .58 style boxes believed to have had wooden blocks instead of tins- much the way the "Spencer" cavalry box was made.

Curt

[Will Eichler]

Thad,

In response to your question about the Spencer book. A friend acquired a copy of it for me from another seller. Much of the book was filled with period propaganda from Spencer in the form of letters form officers and government officials praising the weapons.

That said, in the vein of figuring out how these things were care for in the field, I only found one small bit of use. In the back of the book was list of parts and appendages for the Spencer. On the list (dead last) were the Brush and Thong (listed separately and then joined in pricing - .56 cents for the Infantry Rifle) and the screwdriver (.21 for the Infantry Rifle). That seems to be all the care items Spencer shipped.

I did find a Spencer screwdriver on Dixie's Website but have not personal knowledge of the correctness of this item. I have no idea what the brush and thong looked like or where to go to get one. (MODS - feel free to pull the one sentence if it goes too close to recommending a vendor not on the approved list!)

Anyone have any more reserach on this? I haven't sprung the $70 or so for the Marcott book yet. Want to pay for the rifle first!

Best to all,

Will

[Spencer Guy]

Will
Perhaps the brush and thong that is mentioned in Marcot’s book is a predecessor to today’s boar snake tool. It is a simple enough arrangement with a brush on the end with a pull through string and a tail of weaved cloth. This could easily be something someone thought up in the 1860’s.
Terry

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

The info on Spencer "tools" is somewhat vague due the period practice of listing these things as "appendages."

It is generally believed that the "bore brush" or "brush and thong" as a field expedient issued as appendages for the rifles and carbines (versus, in theory, a cleaning rod for garrison). Years ago, Dixie sold these as well, but they have become pricey and collectors' items lately.

Here is a Spencer screwdriver tool. They are also similar to one of the styles of Remington tools, except the Remington tool end is not as radiused (round).

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y104/Michael1787/CWSpencertoolcopy.jpg

Curt

[Mike Nickerson]

Bump for discussion

Mike Nickerson

[oldrebel]

How do you crimp the ends of the 44 mag casings to make the blanks for the Henry ? I guess this would also work fort the Henry in 44-40 ?

[44 Henry]

Unless the Henry rifle is modified to take shorter rounds the .44-40 casing will not work as they are too short and will not feed through the action. The next round in the magazine will jam the carrier. With a modified Henry rifle shorter rounds can be used for blanks, in fact they are closer to to the correct size of a .44 Henry rimfire in length and you will be able to get 15 or 16 in the magazine depending on how much the crimp is. The other great advantae is that you will be able to make your own blanks for around $25 per 100 instead of $60 per 100 plus postage bringing the total to over $65 per 100, a $40 savings is a big deal to me. The reloaded rounds sound much better than the Swanson blanks I have heard as they are way too loud for what a Civil War Henry would have sounded like, in other words the Swanson blanks do not sound authentic. A Henry cartridge was only loaded with 26 to 28 grains of bp.
http://44henryrifle.webs.com/
Victory thru rapid fire,
Andrew L. Bresnan
National Henry Rifle Company