150th Cycle Meeting

[turfwriter]

For those of you wondering about 150th cycle events, I attended a "meeting of minds" on this topic in Winchester, VA last weekend. Looks like plans are underway for some truly special experiences. Here's the skinny:


Anders Hosts 150th Cycle Meeting

WINCHESTER, Va.— Whether you call yourself a mainstream reenactor, a progressive reenactor or an authentic campaigner, it’s time to take ownership of the hobby and make the 150th anniversary Civil War events all you want them to be. So said Chesapeake Volunteer Guard Commander S. Christian Anders and 16 other hobby leaders, representing over a thousand troops from New England to Ohio to North Carolina, at a March 21 “meeting of the minds” in Winchester, Virginia.

Anders — who spearheaded “September Storm,” “At High Tide” and other quality reenactments — is currently working on his next event, “Return to Manassas,” scheduled for August of 2010. Also recognizing the unique opportunity that the upcoming sesquicentennial presents, he put the call out to those interested in planning similar events for that cycle. As Dave Pridgeon, Commander of the Shenandoah Legion, noted, “We’ve got to provide ‘magic moments’ for our guys, and we can’t count on someone else to do it.”

With over 27 years of event organizing experience between the attendees, this collective body has set out to make the 150th Cycle all it can and must be.

Topics discussed at the meeting included: the definition of a meaningful Civil War experience, the size, timing and type of events desired, the specific battles to be portrayed, securing appropriate ground for such events, enforcing standards, and even the civilian and sutler components. In an effort to improve the experience for all reenactors, Anders and company also sought to identify what succeeded and what didn’t in past events, from the administrative department to actual on-site logistics.

A Five-Year Plan was discussed and many possibilities proposed, from “immersion” events to large-scale battle reenactments, at locations from Pennsylvania to North Carolina and out to Kentucky.

In the end, it was agreed that “sweat equity” — including commitment and ownership from the troops — would be crucial to the success of these reenactments. This level of dedication, combined with an alliance grounded in the Common Sense Resolution, is expected to create a winning proposition. (For more information on the latter resolution, visit www.chesapeakevolunteerguard.org.)

The response was overwhelming.

“The fact that so many took the time and expense to come together for the betterment of the hobby speaks volumes about the type of leadership we have,” Anders commented. "This effort will provide a truer Civil War experience for not only the men we represent, but the hobby at large. By taking ownership and keeping the ‘moneychangers’ out of the ‘temple,’ we can focus on providing an experience above all others — for the good of all involved, the boys in the ranks, the attending public and the Original Boys of ’61.”

A second meeting is tentatively scheduled for Aug. 22, 2009 in Winchester, Virginia. For more information, e-mail 150thcycle@gmail.com.

[Hardtack Herring]

The Liberty Hall Fifes and Drums are excited about this series of events!

Thanks for taking charge!

[John of the Skulkers Mess]

"...out to Kentucky."

That far? Golly.

:confused_

Are you the writer of this article? And what/where will it be published?

[Old Reb]

message deleted by poster

[Justin Runyon]

Put on Glorietta Pass or something Tom, Ill come down there.

[boozie]

KAN-TUCK-KEE? I'll cross the big scary river anytime. Good quality events and good people!

[Old Reb]

message deleted by poster

[Pvt_Sullivan]

The Liberty Hall Fifes and Drums are excited about this series of events!

Thanks for taking charge!

What series of events? All I see in the release is a list of events that have already occurred and one that is being planned by Chris Anders (no offense intended) and a promise to have a meeting in six months.

Now is the 'hobby' going to make a series of events that organizations and individuals could be convinced to support? Right now, there is no general agreement that is going to make that happen that I see.

Why isn't the Campaigner part of discussion about a plan for the 150th Anniversary of the Civil War occurring here on the AC now?

I throw something out... the denizens of South Carolina are working to create an immersion event during early 2011 to commemorate the actions in Charleston, SC that were one of the flash points of the Civil War.

Individuals can't do it all on our own, but if a broad plan is created with two or three history-heavy events each year hosted by groups dedicated to the task and coordinated with Local, State and Federal government... the 150th anniversary could be truly memorable and a great tribute to our ancestors who fought the war.

[Wild Rover]

Let me try to clarify a few items for you.

First, the event we looked at as a collective group included events out to Kentucky. That does not mean if at the August meeting other events in other locations will be forwarded and selected.

Now as to what events, I can tell you there are the following-

3 for 2011
3 for 2012
2 for 2013
3 for 2014
2 for 2015

Now we are not announcing the exact details of each yet, as we are firming up locations (as best you can 6 years out) but that is again the purpose. Plan to work and then work that plan.

To be honest, moving the base to Glorietta Pass for an event doesn't seem very likely.

I would bet against that.

The 150ths are here my friends, Mr Pridgeon has been preaching that for a long time.

And I agree with the posters here, if a 3-4 event cycle of immersion events is warrented, then the time to start work is yesterday.

Pards,

[Old Reb]

message deleted by poster

[dusty27]

Chris,

Can you provide a list of attendees at this meeting?

[Wild Rover]

Tom,

Never meant to say we will be the only show in town, or that folks have to do what we plan, why would I?

Good Lord I hope others put on events everywhere.... it is just that we are working together to combine resources to be able to tackle more ambitious projects, plan further out and hopefully deliver more.

Not sure what we did to ruffle feathers folks, but rather that at least folks are meeting and discussing and working together to try and keep at least a resemblance of history when the 150th cycle takes off. Rather than just consuming that which others offer.

Sort of what Tom said.


Pards,

[Old Reb]

message deleted by poster

[Wild Rover]

Well now that we have split the country into the two required kingdoms, what do we do about Canada?

Will trade you Mexico for such.

Pards,

[jtrotta]

Drawing lines in the sand hardly sounds like an effective and efficient way to grow and improve our hobby. There aren't many of us out there afterall. I applaud the efforts made by those trying to get the ball rolling for the 150th cycle. Good events take planning and procrastination rarely has positive results.

[Old Reb]

message deleted by poster

[PogueMahone]

Anders Hosts 150th Cycle Meeting

WINCHESTER, Va.— Whether you call yourself a mainstream reenactor, a progressive reenactor or an authentic campaigner, it’s time to take ownership of the hobby and make the 150th anniversary Civil War events all you want them to be. So said Chesapeake Volunteer Guard Commander S. Christian Anders and 16 other hobby leaders, representing over a thousand troops from New England to Ohio to North Carolina, at a March 21 “meeting of the minds” in Winchester, Virginia.

Anders — who spearheaded “September Storm,” “At High Tide” and other quality reenactments — is currently working on his next event, “Return to Manassas,” scheduled for August of 2010. Also recognizing the unique opportunity that the upcoming sesquicentennial presents, he put the call out to those interested in planning similar events for that cycle. As Dave Pridgeon, Commander of the Shenandoah Legion, noted, “We’ve got to provide ‘magic moments’ for our guys, and we can’t count on someone else to do it.”

With over 27 years of event organizing experience between the attendees, this collective body has set out to make the 150th Cycle all it can and must be.

Topics discussed at the meeting included: the definition of a meaningful Civil War experience, the size, timing and type of events desired, the specific battles to be portrayed, securing appropriate ground for such events, enforcing standards, and even the civilian and sutler components. In an effort to improve the experience for all reenactors, Anders and company also sought to identify what succeeded and what didn’t in past events, from the administrative department to actual on-site logistics.

A Five-Year Plan was discussed and many possibilities proposed, from “immersion” events to large-scale battle reenactments, at locations from Pennsylvania to North Carolina and out to Kentucky.

In the end, it was agreed that “sweat equity” — including commitment and ownership from the troops — would be crucial to the success of these reenactments. This level of dedication, combined with an alliance grounded in the Common Sense Resolution, is expected to create a winning proposition. (For more information on the latter resolution, visit www.chesapeakevolunteerguard.org.)

The response was overwhelming.

“The fact that so many took the time and expense to come together for the betterment of the hobby speaks volumes about the type of leadership we have,” Anders commented. "This effort will provide a truer Civil War experience for not only the men we represent, but the hobby at large. By taking ownership and keeping the ‘moneychangers’ out of the ‘temple,’ we can focus on providing an experience above all others — for the good of all involved, the boys in the ranks, the attending public and the Original Boys of ’61.”

A second meeting is tentatively scheduled for Aug. 22, 2009 in Winchester, Virginia. For more information, e-mail 150thcycle@gmail.com.



1) Who attended this meeting? Who do they represent?

2) How/when was this meeting announced? General announcement or invitation only? Who determined who got invited?

3) The format is that of a press release or newspaper/magazine article? Which is it? If published, where?

[nrandolph]

Chris,

Hey! This fits in well with my Seward impression when I'm retired from the active CW miltary. If we could only put together an event where the Union and Confederacy join forces to kick the French out of Mexico......

Neil Randolph
1st WV

[Steve Acker]

Good to see everyone is applauding people who are willing to put effort into the hobby. Thanks to those who met and began this discussion, a discussion that, if we stay positive and not get geographically petty, could provide us with quality experiences.


Message not deleted by poster


Steve Acker

[Old Reb]

Mr. Acker
I deleted my post for they expressed a personal opinion, and had nothing to do with the original post other than being a reaction. If your comments are directed toward me, then I suggest we take this discussion off this public forum, because I am not going to engage you in a meaningless discussion that would lead to further hard feelings between different geographical sections of the hobby. But if you wish to continue, I am more than up to the challenge!

[Steve Acker]

You'll recieve a PM in some time today because I agree any personal comments are best suited for personal dialogues.


Steve Acker

[dusty27]

Why can't someone who attended post the names of the attendees?????

[Bushrod Carter]

Steve! you obviously don’t understand the age old adage in our hobby that (insert my geographic area here) is better than (insert your geographic area here)! This has been a time honored institution in our hobby and some learned scholars may even be bold enough to suggest its roots can be traced back to the Civil War itself! And like so many of our brothers in arms are want to say when arguing why something is done the way it is: “Well, we always done it that way.” Ahhhh, makes this sound like a reenactorism to me.

Anyway, I’m with you, Steve. I applaud anyone who takes the bull by the horns and begins the process.

Some may question their motives, or may even question why their own name wasn’t among the who’s who list of invitees/attendees. Leaders will make things happen. The others will play catch up or simply desire to become a thorn in the side of those who spent the time and energy to produce something they feel is for the good of the hobby.

So, my question to everyone out their in Campaigner land is - Do you want to follow and work with a leader, or would you rather just be told what to attend?

[Mcouioui]

To change subject... ;)
French Mess thinks go à Gettysburg le 150th. But in federal :), to see the charge in face :)

[dusty27]

Chris,

With an event of "several thousand with spectators", I have some questions for you. I'm not trying to be pissy, just want to know your thought process.

1) How much land would be needed to do such an event?

2) What would be the funding source for these events?

3) Why are some groups included and excluded?

4) Is this group an extension of the past "Reenactor's Liasion Committee" (I think that was the name of it).

5) I know you and Dave are working on this, but who else?

Thanks

[BrandonEnglish]

Um, hate to play devil's advocate in this matter, but if you don't want to go to an event no matter where the location you have the option of, well not going. Pretty simple really.

I applaud the efforts of Mr. Anders and those not yet named. I can't wait.

[PogueMahone]

Pat,

What is the difference between following a leader and being told what to do?

My questions are to help me determine how this meeting impacts me. Is this primarily a mainstream effort or more progressive? Are people I respect and enjoy working with involved or not?

The hobby is no longer regional. Participants travel from all parts of the nation and overseas to attend good events. Events planned by this group of unknowns will impact everyone. I'd like to know how.

[LibertyHallVols]

Leaders will make things happen. The others will ... simply desire to become a thorn in the side of those who spent the time and energy to produce something they feel is for the good of the hobby.


Well put, Pat.

Mod hat on:
To those in the latter group, please refrain from posting on this thread. Mods are ready to edit, prune, delete, and lock.

[Mcouioui]

Pat,

What is the difference between following a leader and being told what to do?

My questions are to help me determine how this meeting impacts me. Is this primarily a mainstream effort or more progressive? Are people I respect and enjoy working with involved or not?

The hobby is no longer regional. Participants travel from all parts of the nation and overseas to attend good events. Events planned by this group of unknowns will impact everyone. I'd like to know how.



There I am going to answer, I feel concerned...
The events mainstream, it is good, one to us, Gettysburg, set apart (question of symbol) no one will make me cross the Atlantic Ocean.
The progressive events, we also have, but what we lack it is the number, for example our event progressive are going to group together 50 persons maximum instead of 300 or 400 of the BGR or IPW and without horses, wagons, beefs, the USA, etc.
We are 300 or 400 persons in Europe, but in a mainstream event, you understand our misfortune?! :)
I chose, that to go forward and farther, but it is my choice, I him see fit, but without imposing it to the others.
We have a proverb here " it is better the quality, that the quantity " ;)

[jake.koch]

Someone correct me if I am wrong, but this was a preliminary meeting. All that these people were doing is getting together in order to discuss what will perhaps be the biggest anniversaries in this hobby in our lifetimes.

Everything has to start somewhere. I think that these people are making a start. It sounded to me from reading the first post that nothing was set in stone.

There are many groups that plan events. This is just one set. I as well am hopeful that they pay some attention to the theater in which the war was actually won:tounge_sm! However I am glad that people are getting together to plan a string of events for the 150th.

I have absolutely no experience in planning something of the scale of what they seem to be talking about, but if it bothers people that one region is seemingly left out. Why does someone not propose a "meeting of the minds" of those that like to plan events for a near future date in order to plan for the 150th?

I would have no problem, and would be excited for the chance to go east for some authentic events and go west as well. The beauty of this hobby is that it gives us a chance to do diverse impressions and have equally diverse experiences. This four and a half year period should not be a reson for us to argue over, it should be like a huge nicotine hit or caffeine rush for people in this hobbyand one of the biggest chances for growth of this community in a long time.

I don't know how one launches such a thing, I don't know if my opinion would matter, but I would love to see the authentic community come together and map out corresponding events with different impressions for the 150. Like an earlier post said, the time to begin planning was yesterday.

Why doesn't somebody pick a location and simply say that members of the authentic community should meet here on this date to discuss plans for the 150. Mr. Anders could show what he is planning, and others could show what they are planning, and together everyone could work out a schedule of events. The results of the meeting could then be shown for everyone to see on this forum or a special website dedicated to the 150th with updates to the events.

If we don't celebrate the 150 in a big way, or let this anniversary somehow pass us bye, it may be the biggest mistake that anyone involved with this hobby has ever let happen. I am personally really looking forward to this anniversary and all that it has to offer for the hobby, and Civil War History in this country in general.

I did not mean to cause offense to anybody, I think I understand everyone's earlier comments. I would just like to see us all come together for this golden oppurtunity.

[Mcouioui]

I totally agree, be around a table to discuss and plan good events for us all, we shall answer the call, even of the other part of Atlantic.
We live effectively historic time, the authentic movements get closer in Europe and one already proved that they were there to share with you, we shall never be 200, but we shall be there...

[North_State_Rambler]

Mod hat on:
To those in the latter group, please refrain from posting on this thread. Mods are ready to edit, prune, delete, and lock.

By which you mean you are ready to squash any free expression of thought that doesn't match your own opinions?

No - It means we are ready to squash anyone with no higher goal than to be the turd in someone else's punchbowl. If you have a question for a moderator, next time I highly recommend you take it up off-line from the open boards.
John Wickett - Moderator.

[Moose]

All,
I feel some people are asking questions about said meeting because they are confused (myself included) as to why there was a post made about the happenings at the meeting?

We all know that there are different sides to this hobby, and for that reason, people are asking at which level of our hobby was this meeting aimed at? My hat is off to anyone who is planning something for the 150ths, no argument there, and I am sure there are other groups out there trying to plan events too, but why the need to be so secretive? The meeting makes things sound like some secret club meeting of reenactor organizers who will put out events for you to attend. I am not saying that the persons at the meeting want their detailed plans out there, understood its 2009, but why divulage any information at all then? If the meetings were not open to all, which they shouldn't be, too many cooks spoil the soup, then I ask again, why divulage any information?

The hostility is comming from the fact that some people are asking simple questions, like, what organizations attended the meeting, and they are not being answered. I feel the reason for no answer is the politcs in our hobby. Fine, politics aside, if your event is good, and offers somthing to people, they will come. On another forum someone asked the question of how to get an invite to said meeting, and received no reply. So my guess was that it was a closed meeting for brian-storming purposes among a group of people who had previously worked with each other. Which, once agian is fine. But the fact still remains, that meeting was secretive, yet it was annouced. Plain and simple, just asking for trouble.

Cheers,

[PogueMahone]

Caridi's comments are spot on.

Inquiring minds want to know ... more. Is there an objection to that?

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

Moderator hat on...

"By which you mean you are ready to squash any free expression of thought that doesn't match your own opinions?"

By which I mean to discharge the duties and expectations placed upon moderators by the site owner and the site administrators, until told otherwise or relieved of those duties I agreed to perform.

This is not a public board, but rather a private one where membership and posting privileges are extended by the site owner, and where the expectation is held that members follow the rules, guidelines, and culture of the AC Forum.

Curt

[pvt_jb]

I’m going to throw this in here for event planners to see.

I would love to see a series of events during the 150th that would follow a regiment through the war. So for one event for each of the five years we would have the same impression.
For example:
16th Michigan
1861 – Muster in
1862 - Antietam
1863 - Gettysburg
1864 - Spotsylvania
1865 – Five Forks

I think this would be the ultimate research and first person experience over a five year span.

[Auld Pelty]

My votes are events for the anniverseries of:

1) Sabine Pass

2) Fredricksburg

3) Fort Pillow April 12, 1864

4) Mansfield, LA

5) Second Battle of Ft. Wagner

6) Chickamauga

These battles span all the theatres of the war, except the Atlantic Ocean.

[Spinster]

A whole lot of folks know that I will travel a long way for a history heavy, high standards event.

And I'll go a pretty good distance for fresh funnel cake and an anvil shoot, if the event fits my schedule, and it looks like fun. :tounge_sm

Based on personal observation, Mr. Anders did a decent job of land and logistics last June in Gettysburg given the limitations of the site chosen.

But I do hope in all this fine five year planning, that the civilian side of the planning will not be as dismal as that At High Tide. Had I made a special trip that far, I would have been pretty mad.

[Hardtack Herring]

I would like to see a quality 150th event on the Virginia Peninsula.

[tmdreb]

Tom,

Perhaps if you had any experience with planning events, your opinion would have been considered. Oh wait.....

[Charles Heath]

Posting the minutes would end a whole bunch of BS.


Notes from 150TH CYCLE MEETING
21 March ’09, Winchester, VA


PRESENT:
Michael Schaffner, USV
Doug Dobbs
Victoria Kent, civilian coordinator
Laurel Scott, civilian 7th MD/Eastern Charity Society
Dave Pridgeon, Shenandoah Legion
Bill Russell, 47th VA Co. I/Longstreet Corps
Kevin Myers, PSL
Matthew McLaughlin, CVG (Adjutant)
Chris Anders, CVG (C.O.)
Bob Minton, Army of the Ohio
Curtis Utz, CMF
Jeff Stepp, Carolina Legion
Mike Wenger, Carolina Legion
Todd Harrington, civilian/wet-plate photographer
Greg Churchill, CMF (Adjutant)
Mike Lavis, Army of Ohio
Robin Keller, civilian III PVI

OTHER GROUPS INTERESTED (PER ANDERS):
New England Brigade
Mifflin Guard
3rd USV
1st Pa Arty
Western Brigade
Federal campaigner splinter group from FVB
1st Maine Cavalry
Valley Light Horse


1. Brief Analysis of Spotsylvania Event Breakdown

Pridgeon: Broke cardinal rule: If you commit to an event, don’t cancel it — revamp it

Anders: New organizer, lack of good advice/guidance, lack of sweat equity/support

Need to encourage new event organizers to “step up” — goes back to the reenactors
taking ownership of the hobby, re: everything from sweat equity to giving advice

Suggestion: can we reach out/connect with this organizer — who apparently has initiative, energy and a lead on prime ground — and help him or get him involved?

Need to think of these events as opportunity vs. “pulling away” from them

Anders: Perhaps we can share an event “resume” — sample schedule, etc. — to help keep events like this from going under? Greatest opportunity is w/events like this that have new organizers

Kent: Reminder that we need to build bridges without taking on everything

2. Common Ground/Defining & Providing Ideal Civil War Experience

Why We’re Here/Philosophy Behind Events

Pridgeon: Re 150th — need to develop circuit on our own. Doesn’t want to be limited to what’s currently out there. “We’ve got to provide ‘magic moments’ for our guys, and we can’t count on someone else to do it — we have a lot of talent between our organizations.”

“Authenticity without attitude.” Living up to our reputation – cutting commercial element out sets us apart. “Once it’s about profit, it’s not about reeanctors.”

Anders: It’s about the Civil War and providing the experience that soldiers actually had — “and you’re not going to get that standing in line at a funnel cake stand.” Also: “You can’t make everybody have a good time, but you can set the stage for everybody to excel.”

Need to focus on reenactors and their investment — thus, the latter must take ownership and get involved/sweat equity in order to reap maximum benefits

Number/Type/Size and Timing of Events

Lavis: Need 1-2 good battle reenactments avoiding twin extremes of hobby (funnel cake events/extreme H.C. attitude). Reiterated need to deliver at least one big event a year to his troops.


Anders: Would like to see:
- a good battle each year with decent numbers
- annual fun tactical

Chris added that a minimum of 5-600 people are needed for a good battle scenario; can control up to about 2,000 on field as proven through prior events and with an expanded team can work towards higher levels.

IDEAS:

1. Offer “buffet” of events of varying sizes with specific goals (living history, tacticals, battles) such as offered in 125th cycle (before events became increasingly about making money/lost focus on history). Perhaps the goal for each year should be one big “fusion” event (like September Storm) and one smaller “campaign” event — maybe another Recon, too. 1865 could be “bonus” year (since anniversary reenactments would end in April, the rest of the year is available for anything).

2. No more head-to-head conflicts with mainstream mega-events. Focus instead on “complementary” events that cover engagements before or after the majors (e.g., South Mountain, Falling Waters or Mine Run). Ball’s Bluff also mentioned as a possibility (exception: Antietam – Anders)

3. Need to consider where we want to go with numbers without compromising standards. Idea of “controlled growth” vs. idea that the 150th events are likely to be big, and we shouldn’t scale back if we want to grow the hobby. Plus, as Anders pointed out, none of the “big” 150th events have been claimed yet — perhaps we shouldn’t be afraid of claiming them first?

4. If boosted attendance is anticipated, Pridgeon suggested the idea of “core battalions” to provide event support and logistics: in lieu of leaving event organization to one individual, having entire units sign onto the cycle and agree to take responsibility for one of big events (including site selection, website, workdays, and registration, with more distant folks contributing in other ways).

5. Consistent IDs for at least some of the units throughout the weekend, so they can enjoy/wallow in first person. Also use opportunities to develop training ground for guys in field — line functions — break down blue/gray wall, build teamwork/make both sides equally proficient

6. Think about a four or five-day event, with primary action on weekend but with secondary activities that start on Thursday and end on Monday

7. Exploit the ground for movement — i.e., camp a different place on Saturday than on Friday (not for everyone, offer camp of convenience for those that require such at larger events)

8. Retain current fee structure, with donations to preservation


Ground
Anders: Issues/problems:
- liability
- development (“the final crop”)
- events coinciding w/growing season on cropland
- beef cattle & reenactors not a good mix (fences)

PA property for Return to Manassas ideal because it’s charity-owned, can do anything to it

Need to start making list of possibilities and find contacts for good ground!

Possibilities mentioned/places that have worked before:
- Hope’s Campaign property
- farm on which Gods & Generals was filmed
- wildlife management areas
- DC area properties
- South Mountain battlefield
- Port Republic/Cross Keys
- McDowell
- Fisher’s Hill
- Third Winchester
- Camp Allegheny
- New Bern
- Military bases that have hosted WWII reenactors — Ft. Belvoir, Quantico, Ft. A.P. Hill?
- James River property (for Peninsula Campaign)

Pridgeon: Noted how Shenandoah Legion has worked to build rapport with community to secure sites like those for McDowell, Port Republic and Kernstown. Building long-term relationships (going beyond single event) is important

Possibility of more distant events should not be discounted, but teamwork on site needed, as discussed before, re: “core battalions”


Civilian Component

Kent: Important to consider civilians more as counterparts than accessories/afterthought — particularly when selecting ground for camps, etc.

Need justification/reason for civilians to be there in events larger than 500 people and suggested that military reenactors start educating themselves about the “other side” so they can educate their wives/S.O.s

Period towns like those at Perryville were cited as ideal, allowing for laundry, mending, stable/harness repairs, etc. (authentic civilian scenarios) as well as the possibility of “meaningful interaction” with the soldiers. It was noted that in at least one case, the town was constructed for that purpose by civilian groups. Canvas augmenting existing structures also proposed as an alternative.

Less structured “refugee” scenarios also drew support.

Need for military reenactors to point their civilian counterparts to good sources for researching authentic impressions:
- Atlantic Guard Soldiers’ Aid Society
- The Sewing Academy (online forum)
- Juanita Leisch’s book Who Wore What: Women's Wear 1861-1865

Need to get civilians to “talk to each other” in absence of centralized civilian organization.

Since civilian standards (re: ballgowns in the field, etc.) are hard to enforce, perhaps a “threshold activity” is necessary to weed out the less dedicated civilians?
Anders & Kent: This idea less feasible for larger events, OK for smaller ones

Kent: Inappropriately dressed civilian women harder to deal with than male counterparts, as there is no “loaner” clothing for them. Also potential repercussions in ranks when they are kicked out/sent home

Anders: A fine line, re: enforcing civilian standards — reputation as double-edged sword: Don’t want group to be viewed as snobs, but not as pushovers, either — “draw line in sand, but not in negative manner”

2. What’s Worked and What Hasn’t in Past Events

Burkittsville: civilian aspect worked well because town in place

McDowell: Anders: Good example of EBRFR with good civilian component on original ground
Pridgeon: Developed concept of leadership that is totally separate from military leadership — “event czar” for weekend. This person is responsible for and empowered to make the hard decisions, like canceling a battle if the weather gets dangerous. Highly recommended.

Also championed individual registration over unit registration — goes to accountability, re: rules, etc.

Pioneered ration issue and all that involves

Proved “linear” events can be done if organized

To the Gates of Washington — good when “dead stayed dead” (survivors rifled through ammo, etc.)

September Storm: Scripted scenarios were the best at this event; also good scale and best flow

At High Tide: Anders: Confederate reenactors outnumbered, requiring considerable recycling. “Tough” — concerned about their health in heat — but it worked; “made huge impression.” Speaks “volumes” about need for soldiers to prepare physically for events

Ground not scaled ideally for numbers of soldiers, w/exception of Wheat Field. Biggest disappointment: cancellation of night fight due to storm

Ambulance corps deemed a “great addition”

Online registration setup worked well; sent registrants to rules & regs page/must click “agree” to proceed to form. Then rules & regs appear again at sign-in table – reinforcing “individual accountability”

Ambulance on site worked well — working with volunteer ambulance groups best way to go — find out how much to donate in future


Misc./Infrastructure Notes:

General battalion concerns:
Location
Size
Scale (ratio of people to available land)

Keep scripts simple, short and clear

Best people to advertise event are men in the ranks, so keep men in battalions informed about standards, goals, etc.

The sponsor battalion leadership must focus on the men to make sure they are having a good time and that the event is worth their participation

Water logistics important – also making sure there’s a water buffalo on each side wherever there’s a stopping/staging point

Joint walk-throughs on scenarios are KEY; make blue and gray a “team in the service of history.” Remember that introducing participants on individual level can help facilitate unusual actions such as hand-to-hand combat and flag captures without fear of casualties

Communications: Essential that both commanders maintain direct radio contact during battle; little radios work best. Period techniques can be used, but should be secondary.

Ration issues work and can save money, but must be decided 8 months out

Need to plan Sunday battles early in day so we have full strength going into battle (vs. soldiers heading home). Money lost, re: spectators will not be an issue if our funding is based on reenactor registration fees and sweat equity/personal ownership

Re: Food — Anders would like to see church, civic or preservation groups make the $ here

MEDICAL:

First aid/CPR certification — Kent recommended getting event staff and/or one person in each company certified through the American Red Cross and renewing certification annually. Helps when working with trained EMTs; also enables those in ranks to spot potential problems (i.e., heatstroke) before they occur. Red Cross certification reportedly provides Good Samaritan Law protection for graduates operating across state lines.
Anders: Job for 2nd or 3rd Sergeant? Offer to slash registration fee for registrants with proof of certification?

ALSO: Encourage soldiers to put medical data cards on specific color cards in tool pouches or cartridge boxes (also in consistent place, so can be found easily). Remember to include food allergies. Perhaps make this a part of event rules and have sergeants who inspect cartridge boxes check for cards at same time

Summary of Needs/Wants Identified to Date (per Anders):

-Good scripted fights (keep people from getting injured)
-Registration/personal accountability
-Areas where improvement needed:
 Civilian aspects
 Ways to integrate first-time units, re: standards, rules
 Idea of “reenactors in charge” (i.e., 125th Cycle)
 Commander control/more accountability/authority in command structure, remembering to “bitch up the chain, but not down” and hold sergeants and officers’ meetings to that effect before each event.

Reminder from Pridgeon: rather than complain about state of hobby, they “built their own sandbox” to better their experiences. Anders: Key is to invite others to “play in the sandbox” if they agree to abide by our rules — do best you can for the majority. “Honey vs. vinegar” approach works best; glean something from every experience
3. For the Future
Anders: Overall goal is to form group that can not only put on events, but attend other events as a group and present a united front as educated, discerning consumers (which could have the effect of improving other events, too).

Next meeting set for August 22, 2009 in Winchester. Goal: to update the Common Sense Resolution and start firming up events.

FINAL IDEAS, RE: POSSIBLE TIMELINE, ETC.:

1) Kick off the 150th cycle with an 1861 “militia muster” featuring substantial civilian participation, perhaps at Harper’s Ferry or Appomattox — smaller trial run?

2) Participate as a united group in the inevitable mega-First Bull Run

3) Start the battle cycle with Balls Bluff/Big Bethel/Dranesville

4) Pridgeon offered to take the lead on 2012 scenarios for the 1862 Valley Campaign in McDowell, and in 2014 for Third Winchester in Kernstown (where some 600 acres are being preserved). He further noted that Virginia has appropriated $5 million for sesquicentennial celebrations. Need to go to each county’s committee and work w/ them — receive state funding. Anders is putting on a Maryland Campaign in 2012 and possibly a Monocacy in 2014.

5) Maybe offer a discount for “season ticket” buyers who register for both or all three sponsored events in a year

6) Include in the Common Sense Resolution a standard of minimum numbers needed to support a company or battalion and the various ranks (probably event-specific)

7) Other options discussed: Chancellorsville, New Bern, Wilderness, a return to Saylor’s Creek in 2015, NPS Gettysburg ’63, participation at Perryville, and trying to get at least one major tactical in every other year (less burnout)

8) Pull civilians together — girlfriends/tag-alongs, etc. — TEAM WORK


The meeting ended with pledges to spread the word and reconvene in August.

[Spinster]

Thank you Chawls--I had no clue as to whether the copy I had was considered 'available for public viewing'.

So now I can say what I thought: Too bad there aren't current AGSAS officers listed on that meeting list.

[dusty27]

Thanks very much.

That's all I wanted.

[Stonewall_Greyfox]

THANKS!!


PRESENT:
Michael Schaffner, USV
Doug Dobbs
Victoria Kent, civilian coordinator
Laurel Scott, civilian 7th MD/Eastern Charity Society
Dave Pridgeon, Shenandoah Legion
Bill Russell, 47th VA Co. I/Longstreet Corps
Kevin Myers, PSL
Matthew McLaughlin, CVG (Adjutant)
Chris Anders, CVG (C.O.)
Bob Minton, Army of the Ohio
Curtis Utz, CMF
Jeff Stepp, Carolina Legion
Mike Wenger, Carolina Legion
Todd Harrington, civilian/wet-plate photographer
Greg Churchill, CMF (Adjutant)
Mike Lavis, Army of Ohio
Robin Keller, civilian III PVI

OTHER GROUPS INTERESTED (PER ANDERS):
New England Brigade
Mifflin Guard
3rd USV
1st Pa Arty
Western Brigade
Federal campaigner splinter group from FVB
1st Maine Cavalry
Valley Light Horse


The above list shows the reality, which was previously addressed on the forum...where is the representation from this FORUM? If we don't have the membership on this forum come together to consolidate some representation...then we'll have no dog in this fight...we'll be left to pick from a list of larger events in which we have no hand...this list has no representation from the Brothers/Sisters in the Deep South/West...and suprisingly, no representation from the SWB, units of the former IVR...etc.

Rally for Representation??

Paul B.

[jake.koch]

I am just asking, and not in anyway trying to stir trouble, but is there any similiar type of planning tht anyone is aware of for the Western Theater, or even the Trans-Mississippi?

I doubt that I am the first to have this idea but is there perhaps away for people from the East, the West, and the Far West to get together somewhere and correspond schedules in order to avoid conflicts between possible authentic events. Otherwise times such as May of 2014 are going to compete between the push into North Georgia and the Overland Campaign in Virginia. There are certainly many other instances, as we all know.

It sounds like the East is being taken care of but what about events in the Western Theater. If there are corresponding events in each theater competing for numbers it probably won't bode well. Once again, like I said in an earlier post, I am just really looking forward to the susquicentennial, and would like to see our side of the hobby grow.

[KathyBradford]

Charles,

Thank you for posting straight, factual information. As always, it's the most efficient way to answer questions.

[Rob Murray]

Mr. Boulden,

I'm not sure what you are talking about. I see names of AC members on that list. How deep is the Deep South? Seems like there are 2 gents from South Carolina on it. I was talking to a friend in Alabama this morning and they were aware of the meeting. I don't think this meeting was held in secret. Heck, I live in Minnesota and I knew about it. I couldn't make it because I was at an event that weekend.

I'm you want to get involved, contact Chris Anders. I'm sure he'd like more help.

[Spinster]

I am just asking, and not in anyway trying to stir trouble, but is there any similiar type of planning tht anyone is aware of for the Western Theater, or even the Trans-Mississippi?




Jake, that sort of thing would have been done heretofore under the auspices of the North-South Alliance--at least for that area west of the Appalachians and east of the Big River, with forays across the Big River at least once every five years.

Over the years, poor leadership and sheer bullheadedness in some arms of that organization caused greater and greater rifts until the whole thing fell apart last year in a testosterone storm of amazing magnitude. I spent a heck of a lot of time on the phone and computer trying to exercise 'womanly influence';) to get some parties talking again, or to get some experienced younger men to pick up the phone, talk to each other and grab this thing and run with it. Unless some common sense has surfaced in recent months, that's not happening.

The NSA had the ability to put on a 'high end mainstream' event, with good effort made to attract and accomodate the 'history heavy' crowd. And, many of its movers and shakers were the 'history heavy' crowd.

From where I sit now, I can't see anybody with a proven track record of putting on a large scale event of the quality needed for the 150ths, located in the physical area once covered by the NSA. Size yes, quality no.

Some young men will have to step up to the plate quickly, and get on the learning curve for this to happen.

And folks need to realize how many of the men At High Tide, did not come from the eastern seaboard states. The road always seems to run east........and the trip west is impossible to many minds.

[Clsinclair]

Mr. Boulden,

I'm not sure what you are talking about. I see names of AC members on that list. How deep is the Deep South? Seems like there are 2 gents from South Carolina on it. I was talking to a friend in Alabama this morning and they were aware of the meeting. I don't think this meeting was held in secret. Heck, I live in Minnesota and I knew about it. I couldn't make it because I was at an event that weekend.

I'm you want to get involved, contact Chris Anders. I'm sure he'd like more help.

No gents from SC on the list but that is my fault. I was invited but had other obligations. The Carolina Legion is from NC and is a fine organization.

[Rob Murray]

I stand corrected. Heck, Iowa is the deep south for me.

[John of Spotsyltucky]

With no desire to cause argument, but simply to put the record straight, Chris Anders characterized myself, and the Spotsylvania 145th I was attempting to hold, as a "New organizer, lack of good advice/guidance, lack of sweat equity/support" within the first lines of the 150th Cycle Meeting minutes.
To correct the record let it be known that this would have been my fourth event as an organizer. My previous events were: 130th North Anna- 1994, 140th Spotsylvania- 2004 and the 145th Chancellorsville- 2008.
I will assure all readers that there was plenty of "sweat equity" working on this event.
This is simply a statement of the facts. I would appreciate the moderators permitting my posting of this information.

Thank you for reading this.

John Cummings

[Charles Heath]

http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17086&page=4

Reviewing a previous 150th CW Anniversary event discussion may prove useful for some.

[jake.koch]

Charles,

Thanks for posting that link, that thread was from when all my end of the semester Grad Papers and grading were due last year. Needless to say I missed the discussion. I feel alot better now. Thanks again.

[Charles Heath]

http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22128&page=3

A more recent thread also worth reading, especially in light of the excellent 2011-2013 events already on the books that may be over run, so to speak.

[Pvt Schnapps]

For the last year and a half I’ve refrained from posting on this Forum. But now that planning for the 150th cycle has begun, I would like to join in the discussion. In part this stems from the fact that my name has already come up. But I also want to answer some of the questions that have arisen.

Who went to the meeting? Thanks to Charles we all have a list. Charles may also have a list of those invited as well as other background information that he would like to share. I won’t share it because I feel the decision belongs to the organizer or the individuals concerned. A number of those folks would probably rather plan and work on events than take part in Internet-based meta-campaigning, and who really can blame them?

Probably around fifty people got invited, so it didn’t seem much like a secret. They appeared to include everyone who’s worked with Chris for the last decade. They represented progressive units and the progressive wings of several eastern mainstream units. They, and Chris, have a track record of putting on well-scripted battle reenactments of 300 to 1,000 soldiers on a side, with camping designed to accommodate both campaign and garrison styles.

Chris originally scheduled the meeting in February, but weather and individual commitments caused him to reschedule. Attendance still lagged, but I think everyone invited who couldn’t show had someone there to speak for them and report back. I wrote up my own AAR for a few other players who couldn’t make it.

People who know Chris know that he will put on a respectable series of events for this cycle or literally die in the effort. Part of the interest of some of us in participating lies in ensuring that we achieve the former without the latter.

What events will this group produce? Some ideas got tossed around, as you can tell from the minutes; the list will get firmed up some in August. At that time the groups involved should also have a final version of the “Common Sense” resolution to approve (note to Eric: imitation really is the sincerest form of flattery). In any case, you don’t have to worry about not hearing from Chris.

I don’t find anything suspicious in the fact that Chris first contacted those folks who worked with him before. I don’t think he intended any slight by not reaching out farther west – the west seems to have its own well-established circuit of events and organizers. I also don’t find it unnatural that he did not reach out to folks who primarily focus on smaller living histories geared toward their own high standards of authenticity – not a different hobby, but a different and more specialized facet.

On the whole, I find it even less surprising that Chris did not include on the invitation list many whose principal contributions to the hobby occur in online forums.

Ms. Lawson, you raised an excellent question about civilians. The challenges involved in raising the level of civilian authenticity in these upcoming events dwarf those on the military side to such an extent that one hardly knows where to begin. We discussed this at length – probably greater length than the official minutes convey.

An excerpt from my notes may illustrate what I mean: “Someone raised the issue of mentoring; AGSAS (Atlantic Guard Soldiers Aid Society) was mentioned and several participants wrote down the name as a source for information. The idea of inviting AGSAS to help was raised, but at least one person suggested that a meeting of AGSAS and 300 ladies in ball gowns was apt to result in terror on both sides, if not a chemical chain reaction that would threaten the planet.”

I confess that the “one person” was me; I assure you I meant no disrespect to AGSAS.

Like previous events put on by Chris and Kevin Air and the folks who work with them, the big events in the upcoming cycle will be “fusion events” -- “progressive” but with significant numbers of soldiers from primarily mainstream units. Staging these will present a series of intricate problems whose solution will require an awkward set of balancing and compromise. That’s the only way that we will get battle reenactments of a reasonable size without the laughable level of inauthenticity at so-called “mega” events. If, knowing that, you still want to get involved, I would wager that you can.

A question came up in this thread about finances. The organizers plan for most of the money to come from the registration fees of participating re-enactors and for any profits to go to preservation. Re-enactors will plan and organize the events for the benefit of other re-enactors, and history. This may not meet everyone’s interpretation of “EBUFU” but it would appear to meet a literal definition. Doing this allows re-enactors to stage the events accurately without having to compromise for the viewing angles of spectators. It also allows for participant-only dusk scenarios and for departures before noon on Sunday.

Overall, I think this will produce a series of eastern events offering a little something to everyone on this forum. And, in my opinion, that’s a good thing.

See you all in the field.

[Spinster]

Mr. Schaffner,

Its good to know that *someone* is thinking on the issue of civilians.

To allow and encourage the "ballgowns at 10:00 am" crowd at events which will be billed as the best we, as a hobby, can offer on a large scale is to fully and completely disrespect the lives and sacrifies of those women, children, and yes, men who lived and died as civilians during the period.

What is missing is attempts to educate and inform or attempts to offer scenarios that would be in keeping with the period. I was mightily surprised to not see Dutch farmers or wives selling milk at a dollar a ladle At High Tide. You know they were there THEN--why in the world were they not with us last summer?

When there is leadership in an organization that worries about "girlfriends and tagalongs" , or that expects 'soldiers' to educate their companions, that tells me that they have not encountered serious civilian participants in the hobby--or have bought into the myth that excellent people are somehow scary. To my knowledge, no one at AGSAS has bitten anyone. :rolleyes:

The civilians coordinator for AT HIGH TIDE literally had her hands tied. She was not provided with significant designated funds to plan and provide activity for civilians who paid just as much as the soldiers to attend.

Well back in the winter, members of the Winston Free-State offered her a long list of available talks that we had done for various groups. Others did the same. Not only was she not authorized to waive registration fees for speakers, she did not have fiscal authorization or any type of event support for even a large fly to gather under. If y'all are serious about civilian participation and education at a large scale event, then provide your civilian coordinator with adequate resources to do her job. Y'all had some of the best civilian speakers in the hobby on site, especially in the vendor row, and no mechanism for them to communicate effectively with folks that needed to hear them.

I note that the minutes mention Perryville as a good example. Mrs. Simpson is a strong contributing member of that site. She is also given access to funding from the event, and men willing to work--a little bit can go a long way.

Y'all might also want to take a clue from another large scale organization that worked well for many years. For a number of years, my pattern was to roll into NSA events around midnight on Wednesday, kick the seat back, and sleep in the vehicle. Invaribly, I would wake up on Thursday morning to a world with camps fully laid out down to the company level, clear signage, amenities in place, and vendor tents rising in the distance. In one case, we actually had to dump wagons and gear a full week before the event so as not to haul them from Alabama to Kentucky two weeks in a row--and when we came in wondering where to put them--lo and behold, all the camp signs were already out.

And finally, lets stab at another myth--that you can't solve an improperly dressed civilain on the spot. Now, I must admit I cannot solve a red acetate ballgown at 10:00 am with anything other than a match and a credit card. But on numerous occassions, we have solved the problem of the ubiquitious camp dress skirt and blouse combo with a good sewing kit, a willing participant, a tin of hair balm, and an hour of time on Saturday morning. A loaner slat bonnet, shawl, apron covers a lot of sin. Its not perfect, but it is an improvement.

[Pvt Schnapps]

I didn't get to "At High Tide" but we heard loud and clear from the coordinator in Winchester.

And most folks seemed to take it to heart. There seemed a widespread recognition that the civilian impression isn't just a way to entertain modern camp-followers, but a key to establishing the context in which the military operations occur.

In Winchester, one way of recognizing this was the idea of kicking off the cycle with a "militia muster" where even the "military" participants in fact start as civilians and the townspeople are a major part of the event. Having civilians play a key role at the start should go a long way toward proper recognition throughout the cycle.

As you know, I've enjoyed and greatly benefited from the civilian presence at a number of events, not least a year ago in Newfane. So I mean it when I say I hope your concerns get addressed early on in the upcoming cycle.

And I also hope that getting things started now will help avoid some of the glitches that occurred at past events.

But more than hoping, I plan to help, to the extent that I can.

[Stonewall_Greyfox]

[FONT="Book Antiqua"]
Probably around fifty people got invited, so it didn’t seem much like a secret. They appeared to include everyone who’s worked with Chris for the last decade. They represented progressive units and the progressive wings of several eastern mainstream units. They, and Chris, have a track record of putting on well-scripted battle reenactments of 300 to 1,000 soldiers on a side, with camping designed to accommodate both campaign and garrison styles...
I don’t find anything suspicious in the fact that Chris first contacted those folks who worked with him before. I don’t think he intended any slight by not reaching out farther west – the west seems to have its own well-established circuit of events and organizers. I also don’t find it unnatural that he did not reach out to folks who primarily focus on smaller living histories geared toward their own high standards of authenticity – not a different hobby, but a different and more specialized facet.

To clarify, the posts I've made were NOT mean as an attack at Chris or his staff.

I totally understand why the planning would begin with those who have PROVEN their commitment in the past to help put on events over the last decade...the intention of the posts I've made are more of a rally-point...as Chris's events have consistantly been debated on these forums, until the AHT event last summer (which overall, recieved very positive reactions from the members of this forum who attended).

Why is it important for us to rally? Well lets look at the two G-burg events last summer...based on the scuttlebutt on this forum...and Szabo's forum...as Mainstreamers, Progressives, and Campaigners...we seemed split (probably 60/40) on which event we attended, with a large portion of this forum choosing to attend the GAC event over Andersburg...can we afford to run parallel events?

Representation: I don't know much about the Blue...but speaking from the Southern Campaigner perspective (at least in the East), we no longer have any Larger Umbrella like affiliations (other than the PSL, and CMF). While it appeared both those organizations had at least one representative invited/present for the latest Winchester planning meeting...what about the other "independant" Confederate Companies here in the East? While a mere 15-20 soldiers at a time may seem like some menial amount of soldiers, when that's multiplied out 10 times...now the numbers start to come together (thinking of the CS Companies who are typically in attendance at Eastern "EBUFU" events like Rich Mtn., Payne's Farm, GMH '08: SWB, NSR, 23rd VA...etc.). Not to mention the Brothers/Sisters over them big scary mountains...

Since we are so fragmented, if we don't come together to form some sort of representation, and assist in the planning/execution of these larger anniversary events...then we have to realize that we'll be left to act as fill companies for the other consolidated organizations in attendance...

So again...the aim of my posts was not to throw stones...but to inform...THE BURDEN IS ON US, to solidify some representation, TO RALLY...and be apart of the planning process...or it's all table scraps from there.

Paul B.

[PogueMahone]

...(thinking of the CS Companies who are typically in attendance at Eastern "EBUFU" events like Rich Mtn...)



Not to mention the Brothers/Sisters over them big scary mountains...

This is an interesting commentary. Paul is telling us that the Rich Mountain event was an "Eastern EBUFU". And then he suggests the folks "over the mountains" might even boost such event numbers. Paul, I'm smiling now because my CS company was commanded by a guy from SC, the 1st Sgt (me) was from Tenn, and the ranks were filled from about 7 different states on both sides of the mountains and maybe one from across the river. Paul, Rich Mountain was not an "Eastern EBUFU", it was promoted as a national event and organized by folks from the Midwest.

Earlier in this thread, I stated that this hobby is no longer regional. Rich Mountain is a great example of that. The list of events in the last 5 years that had participants from each major region/theater is going to be longer than the list that didn't. For all the talk of getting a plan together for the 150th series of events, why are we looking to each region to organize events within that region? Why not a national plan? If you'd told me that Chris Anders, Eric Tipton and Tom Yearby had gotten together to try and scratch out a plan for national events, I think my ears would perk up to hear what was said.

But, now that I see what this mystery meeting was about (Thanks, Charles, for lifting the "Cone of Silence"), I'm satisfied, not curious and see no real impact on my plans for the next few years. "Same regiment, new clothes".

[Stonewall_Greyfox]

This is an interesting commentary. Paul is telling us that the Rich Mountain event was an "Eastern EBUFU". And then he suggests the folks "over the mountains" might even boost such event numbers. Paul, I'm smiling now because my CS company was commanded by a guy from SC, the 1st Sgt (me) was from Tenn, and the ranks were filled from about 7 different states on both sides of the mountains and maybe one from across the river. Paul, Rich Mountain was not an "Eastern EBUFU", it was promoted as a national event and organized by folks from the Midwest.

Earlier in this thread, I stated that this hobby is no longer regional. Rich Mountain is a great example of that. The list of events in the last 5 years that had participants from each major region/theater is going to be longer than the list that didn't. For all the talk of getting a plan together for the 150th series of events, why are we looking to each region to organize events within that region? Why not a national plan? If you'd told me that Chris Anders, Eric Tipton and Tom Yearby had gotten together to try and scratch out a plan for national events, I think my ears would perk up to hear what was said.

But, now that I see what this mystery meeting was about (Thanks, Charles, for lifting the "Cone of Silence"), I'm satisfied, not curious and see no real impact on my plans for the next few years. "Same regiment, new clothes".

Maybe my commentary wasn't clear...so please permit me to clarify, before my comments are skewed out of proportion.

I did not intend to for the credit for the Rich Mtn. event to be mis-matched from it's organizers...as pointed out...this event was largely organized/attended by folks West of the Mtns....but the fact is that this event occured in the "Eastern Region"...regardless of who planned it.

Nowhere did I mention anything about "Regions planning events" (but hell, that's a damn good idea)...having a "local" spearhead the effort to organize an event, has potential to alleviate some of the logistical considerations of events.

Did I say, "folks over the mountains, would "boosts" event numbers"? I don't believe I made that comment either, while it's nice to see guys flock to a particular impression in effort to boost numbers (grey-blue, blue-grey, east-west, west-east), outside of the "normal/comforting" base-impression...the truth is...it sure would be nice to provide oppurtunities for people to portray their base impressions...seeing a Western Contingent here in the East portray a Regiment/Battalion/Companies from somewhere outside of the ANV (thinking the Western Contingent at Andersburg)...and of course vice-versa (thinking of the ANV Contingent at a GA Living History a few years ago).

So we're agreed that event theatres cannot operate in black boxes mutually exclusive from one another...they must be mutually inclusive, but that requires putting past grievances aside, and working together (yah, a miracle).

[Wild Rover]

Ok,

Let me address some thoughts listed and also put out an invitation (which was in the original press release) to those who wish to attend and participate in the next meeting.

First of all, I did not release the notes publically as I was getting all input from attendees first, I had issued them by email to folks who attended or who were on the email list. Was waitingon feedback from them prior to a large public airing of the notes, but hey, nothing ever goes according to plan....anyone who has ever done anything appreciates that one.

But, yes, there needs to be more folks involved, more folks who see a common goal, and work towards a larger common goal, while still keeping thier vision.

The hobby is a huge bell curve, and most folks fit somewhere in the middle, with extremes on both sides.

This meeting was not to embrace the whole middle, but for a lack of better terms, the upward middle and stopping short of the far upper extreme, as we all know that if you put 200 reenactors together, someone's cap pouch will be wrong, so there has to be an attainable standard/goal that will enable the growth that the 150ths will definately bring.

Folks are invited to attend the next meeting, and Laurel has agreed to be the contact person for such (thank you!)

We constantly discussed a "buffet" of events, and hopefully folks who will be new to the meeting will be able to help provide more "fixins" to choose from.

Now to address Dusty and his questions-

With an event of "several thousand with spectators", I have some questions for you. I'm not trying to be pissy, just want to know your thought process.

1) How much land would be needed to do such an event? Normally 350 acres is the starting point, but that has a lot to do with usable % of property and the terrain itself- example, the Boonsboro site had only slightly over 200 acres, but the terrain made it work. The AHT event site had 500, but really needed to be bigger in some aspects and smaller in others. Really depends on the ground layout.

2) What would be the funding source for these events? Reenactors- counting on the public money instantly changes the the focus of the event, thus 3pm Sunday fights and so forth. Reenactors IMO come first.

3) Why are some groups included and excluded? See Mike's post above.... it was folks whom I had worked with over the past decade who were team players. The next meeting appears to be getting bigger :)

4) Is this group an extension of the past "Reenactor's Liasion Committee" (I think that was the name of it). Nope- that had no reason to exist, as it really did, well nothing, as it chose to. Many of us played that game in the RLC, and it turned out to be a total waste of time.

5) I know you and Dave are working on this, but who else? Already listed above, and more folks signing on each day. Wanna help?

Pards,

[Old Reb]

Me, I believe in free market reenacting. Committees, grand head gatherings to discuss things, and direction from the top down is for the government, not for reenactors who vote by their choice of which events they attend or don’t attend. Individuals, or small groups of individuals come up with an idea for an event. Then they implement that plan. People decide whether that event is the kind they want to attend. Competition between events is good. Dropping two events that are aimed at the same audience close to the same date isn’t. I do believe that folks have figured that one out without having grand think tanks to work it out for them. Simply put, if you have only a limited number of people that might attend the event you are planning then it makes little sense to compete for that limited number of people by having the events scheduled for approximately the same date. Mainstream events don’t count in this equation for they are a different breed and if there is a small over-lap of attendees that might select either a more authentically oriented campaign event over a farb shoot ‘em up, then it makes little difference to the side of the hobby that is striving for event of more quality. The hybrid events that promise a little shoot ‘em up and a little campaign contingent fit in the same category as the total mainstream event. They might attract folks from the fringes of the more authentic side of the hobby, but not to the point that those people would select a hybrid over a quality event. Basically, it is the consumer that make the choice regarding what event they attend and which they don’t and no amount of committees, think tanks, gatherings of planners will change that clear fact. Good events, where ever they are held, and by whom ever puts them on, will be attended. Free market reenacting is best.

[PogueMahone]

Nowhere did I mention anything about "Regions planning events" (but hell, that's a damn good idea)...having a "local" spearhead the effort to organize an event, has potential to alleviate some of the logistical considerations of events.

The first paragraph was about what you said, not directed at you. The rest of the post referenced back an idea I had put forth earlier. No stones were tossed at you directly.



Did I say, "folks over the mountains, would "boosts" event numbers"? I don't believe I made that comment either ...


What you said, sans the parenthetical reference to specific events, was:


While a mere 15-20 soldiers at a time may seem like some menial amount of soldiers, when that's multiplied out 10 times...now the numbers start to come together ... Not to mention the Brothers/Sisters over them big scary mountains...


Mathematically that reads (15 x 10) + AoT = X.

But this I find a bit discomforting:


... while it's nice to see guys flock to a particular impression in effort to boost numbers (grey-blue, blue-grey, east-west, west-east), outside of the "normal/comforting" base-impression...the truth is...it sure would be nice to provide oppurtunities for people to portray their base impressions...seeing a Western Contingent here in the East portray a Regiment/Battalion/Companies from somewhere outside of the ANV (thinking the Western Contingent at Andersburg)...and of course vice-versa (thinking of the ANV Contingent at a GA Living History a few years ago).

Documented unit specific event portrayals are fine, but a generalization of "base-impression" westerners at an eastern event sounds like mainstream thinking to me.

[Marylander in Grey]

All,
IMHO
Could we all just step back alittle and look at what we can do togeather. I feel planning now as stated by many others is positive for several reasons:
1. We as Historians will be in control of the events on a larger scale then "which one chooses to attend". No more events for personal profit. Proceeds to go to preservation.
2. Time to assist those who may want to improve thier impression with being outcast from the start. We accomplish this by guidelines posted sooner than later.
3. Provide a list of events early on to ensure maximum participation without doubling up on weekends. Which will allow regional coordinators to work out schedules for maximum coverage without event overload. Land preperation,travel arrangements, work commitments ect....
4. Will allow Commanders to research specifics of the Battles, as well as rolls of civilians for proper interaction, ect...
5. Will ensure that the coordinators have sufficient time for pre- event logistics ie: EMS, Police, Insurance issue, local laws on firearms, ect...
6. Will help with recruiting.
My point is Volunteer to help. I am.
Just my 2 cents.

[Clsinclair]

This is an interesting commentary. Paul is telling us that the Rich Mountain event was an "Eastern EBUFU". And then he suggests the folks "over the mountains" might even boost such event numbers. Paul, I'm smiling now because my CS company was commanded by a guy from SC, the 1st Sgt (me) was from Tenn, and the ranks were filled from about 7 different states on both sides of the mountains and maybe one from across the river. Paul, Rich Mountain was not an "Eastern EBUFU", it was promoted as a national event and organized by folks from the Midwest.

Earlier in this thread, I stated that this hobby is no longer regional. Rich Mountain is a great example of that. The list of events in the last 5 years that had participants from each major region/theater is going to be longer than the list that didn't. For all the talk of getting a plan together for the 150th series of events, why are we looking to each region to organize events within that region? Why not a national plan? If you'd told me that Chris Anders, Eric Tipton and Tom Yearby had gotten together to try and scratch out a plan for national events, I think my ears would perk up to hear what was said.

But, now that I see what this mystery meeting was about (Thanks, Charles, for lifting the "Cone of Silence"), I'm satisfied, not curious and see no real impact on my plans for the next few years. "Same regiment, new clothes".

Hi Joe,

I was in that Company and I am from the Palmetto State of South Carolina.

[Wild Rover]

John,

I just noticed your post and to be honest felt that it needs answered.

First off all, none of the folks at the meeting had ever worked with or for you before, and while it was sorta "rumored" you have worked on events before, it was and is the opinion that this was your first event as lead organizer. If I/ we are wrong, my apologies.

Next- we were not faulting you personally, but rather, to be straight honest, the lack of support you recieved from those who were to lead the troops on the field.

No one, or very few had heard anything from the respective force commanders, to whip folks into registering, to promote the event, contribute to the website, detail much of anything other than- We are in charge, we ahve big numbers it will be fun, show up.

Sorry, but folks need to take more ownership than that. Worked in 1995, when they actually had big numbers, when money and time was plenty, but the cheese has moved, and the folks who think they can still run an event in such a way will do nothing but fail. It is not what organization they "command" that matters. It is past performance and ability to rally others and follow a darn script, enforce regulations and LEAD.

If you notice, the conversation then turned to how to help folks who are putting on events, rather than criticize. To be honest, many were sad that the event did not occur, and want folks to know that we are looking to help others with events, rather than being happy sitting back and watching them fail, so we can snipe on the forums about such.

We have troops we wish to lead to event. We cannot put them all on, no matter how big or diverse the group is. We need events to succeed, heck the whole hobby does.

But to win in today's hobby, you have to change the game. Operating a business like it is 1995 today would bankrupt you, and the same for an event. It is truly a business, and must act and make decisions like one.

Sorry for the rant, but wanted you to know there was no personal attacks on you, but rather a criticism of folks who OWED you more support than what they delivered.

Sweat equity and ownership on the part of the reenactors involved, not just you.

Hope this makes sense, and I hope that you will get back into the saddle, and ride the horse again, and do drop me a line anytime.

Pards,

[Pvt Schnapps]

John, I'd like to add my apologies for not seeing your earlier e-mail; I'd also like to reinforce a few points.

The minutes were distributed to attendees on March 26 and posted here on the 28th. There simply wasn't time for Chris to get comments back and make corrections before the minutes were forwarded to the world from someone who did not participate. That's a risk you run when you get a lot of people involved, I guess.

The statement you corrected resulted, I believe, from the note-taker's attempt to capture the comments of several people. It was incorrect to ascribe everything in that first section to just Dave and Chris. In my own notes I didn't have anything like that -- I just noted that folks spent the first five or ten minutes chatting about Spottsylvania. Unfortunately, the timing of the cancellation made it a natural opening topic for people meeting shortly after to discuss events.

I was glad to see the comment captured about wanting to work with you in future.

[col90]

[FONT="Book Antiqua"]

Ms. Lawson, you raised an excellent question about civilians. The challenges involved in raising the level of civilian authenticity in these upcoming events dwarf those on the military side to such an extent that one hardly knows where to begin. We discussed this at length – probably greater length than the official minutes convey.

An excerpt from my notes may illustrate what I mean: “Someone raised the issue of mentoring; AGSAS (Atlantic Guard Soldiers Aid Society) was mentioned and several participants wrote down the name as a source for information. The idea of inviting AGSAS to help was raised, but at least one person suggested that a meeting of AGSAS and 300 ladies in ball gowns was apt to result in terror on both sides, if not a chemical chain reaction that would threaten the planet.”

I confess that the “one person” was me; I assure you I meant no disrespect to AGSAS.



None taken..but since our name has come up, let me just give a brief response.

One of our members drew my attention to this thread...I had not been on this forum for a little while. The reason there were no AGSAS board members there is that we didn't know about the meeting. I'd also say we are always interested in considering new events and advancing the cause of the civilians in the hobby, but we do need to be made aware of things in order to consider them.

And Mrs. Lawson, biting is on our list of "no-nos"! ;)

Colleen Formby
President, AGSAS

[Annette Bethke]

Some of us civilians in Texas have already started thinking about this and are planning home front living histories in Texas for each year. We are still in the discussion stage. Because so few engagements occurred here, we thought the home front was truly what should be represented here. Keep in mind that just because it is home front does not exclude military involvement. The basic structure will be the effect of the different major events on the citizens of Texas. We also hope to show the progression of the effects of the blockade, the severe drought in the area, the lack of man power to harvest, etc.

[Wild Rover]

Annette and all,

Truly trying to make a meaningful experience for large numbers of civilians can prove to be an overwhelming task at larger "miltary focussed" events.

Having put together Burkittsville 2001 (over 80 civs), War on the James, (20 couple) and October 62 I really think that having good period interaction with civilians adds tremendously to all involved.

However when you find yourself dealing with a couple hundred civilians, on a piece of land perfect for military manuvers but not civilians, what is the answer?

If you tell the civilians to stay home, many events will never reach 1,000 participants. Now folks can argue whether having 1,000 plus participants events are their cup of tea, but the fact remains- want 2,000 troops, you end up with 150 or so civilians.

Perryville 2006 did an excellent job with the living history village, and the civilians really stepped up and ran with that program.

Perhaps that is an example of what could be done.... but it will take a united front from the civilians to make it occur. A central group with a visions and the means and willingness to create the stage on which to perform.

There needs to be more communication between all civilians in such a situation, solutions created and then just let theorganizer know what you require to implement them.

Being "military" I hate to even dabble in civilian matters, except for the fact I enjoy good interaction and feel they add so much to the overall experience.

Always open to suggestions,

[PogueMahone]

Well, Chris, since you are open to suggestions ...

Perhaps the thing to do is to put as much planning AND execution into your civilian roles and activities as you do the military, create guidelines for civilians that are every bit as stringent as the military and enforced and you probably won't end up with 200 civilians, tent sitters or dressed-up spouses.

What piece of land is perfect for military manuevers and not civilians? If you can manuever a battalion across it, I guarantee you can move civilians across it. If the big open field is perfect for dress parade, it can be plowed.

Your comments: ... "miltary focussed" events ... I hate to even dabble in civilian matters ... land perfect for military manuvers but not civilians ... just makes it sound like civilians are not desired at your events.

[Wild Rover]

Joe,

If you read my post you realize that I do want to have good civilians and thus good interaction at events.

The problem arises when it come to a setting.

In a town, it is easy, on a large open piece of ground, not as much. Excepting of course "mobile" civilians. And the numebr of mobile civilians in the scope of the hobby, even the progressive side, tends to be in the minority.

So then to have good civilians in numbers, one has to have a logical placement and a reason for them to be there, and reasonable activities to do while there.

Those are the suggestions I am looking for, as well as folks whom are willing to put inthe sweat equity to make it happen. Being only one person, I dare not try to do it all. Especially when it comes to things I am not that good at, or have no perspective on.

Hope that helps to clear things up.

[nrandolph]

Chris,

I can't remember whether you were there or not, but War On The James had a very good civilian component to it. I believe that most all civilians there tended to portray war refugees. The Union forces kept having to deal with them the whole weekend, as they went back and forth through our lines. I distinctly remember my friend and I escorted one man back out of our lines with the admonition from our officer not to come back or be shot!

Maybe one of the civilians present could give some of their perspective to help in future events.

Neil Randolph
1st WV

[Wild Rover]

I think I was there, come to think about it, I think I was the organizer...:wink_smil

[Annette Bethke]

Joe,

The problem arises when it come to a setting.

In a town, it is easy, on a large open piece of ground, not as much.

So then to have good civilians in numbers, one has to have a logical placement and a reason for them to be there, and reasonable activities to do while there.

Those are the suggestions I am looking for, as well as folks whom are willing to put inthe sweat equity to make it happen.

I applaud your desire to include civilians. However, I accept the fact that some events are just not acceptable for large or in some cases any civilian impressions. I don't think that has to be considered a bad thing. Some times civilians need to plan their own event. I don't see why the 150th cannot be operated in that way. If there is an event such as a Vicksburg scenario that would allow for civilian participation, great, plan the event with both impressions meeting together; if the Wilderness is planned then those wanting to participate in civilian impressions need to plan their own event outside the military-centric one. I don't see why this cannot be done through the meeting structure you have set up.

I would indeed like to help out on the civilian side; unfortunately, Texas is a long haul to where the majority of the events will take place. However, as I said, there is some planning happening with civilian-centric events in Texas for the 150th. If an event east is not conducive to civilian impressions, I invite y'all down here :).

[Campjacksonboy]

I was just a little plesantly surprised to see this thread. Even St. Louis is getting ready for the 150th cycle. Evidently the local historcial society, Missouri Department of Natural Resources (The people who brought you Athens), The National Park Service, and others have come together and have are preparing for the 150th Anniversary Cycle. They had a meeting last month but I was not there. This however did not stop them from putting me in charge of the 1861 committee.

I do not know what direction this is going to take or if my efforts will be worthy of a listing on the AC. Just a hint, look at my screen name and ponder. In the mean time I'll try and keep the powers here posted.

Our first meeting is in May. Just an FYI and heads up.

I'd bet the 2011-15 will be jammed glad to see this thread popped up.

Frank Aufmuth
Missourians Unite!

[nrandolph]

I think I was there, come to think about it, I think I was the organizer...:wink_smil

Chris,

...so I guess you do remember the civilians.Well that was early in my campaign life, ha,ha! That, and you were probably so far up the Big Bug ladder I never saw you since we were always out on the frontline (just kidding!)

Neil Randolph
1st WV

[Hank Trent]

I can't remember whether you were there or not, but War On The James had a very good civilian component to it. I believe that most all civilians there tended to portray war refugees. The Union forces kept having to deal with them the whole weekend, as they went back and forth through our lines. I distinctly remember my friend and I escorted one man back out of our lines with the admonition from our officer not to come back or be shot!

Maybe one of the civilians present could give some of their perspective to help in future events.

I was one of the civilians at War on the James, and also attended Chris's October 1862 event a couple years ago as a civilian, and I think it points up one problem with civilian participation at the 150th events. It all comes down to: what experience do civilians want?

I believe that most civilian reenactors do not want, and will not do, what we did at those events. No buildings were provided for us, simply because they weren't available, and the roles were created so that we were as mobile and functional as the military, and in danger of being caught, detained, searched, arrested, marched off, punished, or even killed as I was at War on the James--one of the few events I left early after my "body" was taken away for burial. :D

I expect that the number of civilians who attended, probably about a dozen or so at War on the James and half a dozen at October 1862, are close to the maximum numbers of civilians that one could get for those activities. I'm not seeing significantly more in similar recent civilian roles at events like Marmaduke's Raid, Into the Piney Woods, etc.

While those numbers of house-less civilians would balance nicely with several thousand soldiers and could be integrated into almost any terrain or site, it wouldn't allow for the participation of civilians who expect to camp in tents or other structures, bring lots of stuff, stay put, have a predictable weekend and some time to shop at sutlers and socialize, etc.--and those make up the vast majority of civilian reenactors, including some of the civilian groups that have been mentioned in this thread.

So while I would love to see lots more events with civilian roles like War on the James or October 1862, in addition to larger events in civilian towns with houses, I think they're not what the majority of civilian reenactors are looking for, and therefore those events are useless as a model to attract the kind of broad, dare I say mainstream, participation among civilian reenactors that the big 150ths would be aiming for.

So I dunno. What kind of experience do the civilians who would attend the 150ths want? I know it's probably not what I'd want, but then there are already smaller events that offer what I like.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[Pvt Schnapps]

It's an interesting problem, Hank, and I think you've defined some of the challenges. It will be easier to combine all the military in scripted battle scenarios that it will to combine all the civilians in a single coherent role.

The answer might lie in having several ways for civilians to participate: e.g., for the more mobile, a "campaign" scenario involving refugees or innocent bystanders caught up in the action; for the less so, the residents of the nearest town, whose demonstrations of life in the 19th century would play out in appropriate activities before and after the battle scenarios.

I won't say it was easier, but it seemed less challenging to work with a small number of civilians with well-researched individual impressions than to coordinate something involving scores of less fully developed personas. But that's what we may have to do.

We may be edging closer to the concept of "scripting" larger-scale civilian participation in these events. I don't know -- have people done this? Are they willing to work on it? (And are those the questions you just asked? :) )

[dusty27]

While I understand what Chris is trying to do, a lot of the strides his events may have made in the recent past, would be, in my opinion, erased if future events that want to attract large numbers of MILITARY cater to the tag along family type "civilians".

There are flat out VERY few legitimate opportunities for a large contingent of civilians to reenact civilian roles while in a military setting, which most of these large events are planned to be.

Don't we have enough "single" soldiers to have numbers at an event without "civilians"?

[LibertyHallVols]

I agree with Dusty here. There are numerous LH museums all across the country that can be and are used for good civilian LH events. Conner Prairie, Old Bedford Village, Boonefield Village, to name a few, plus settings like various shaker villages. These are great locations that provide a meaningful context for a civilian presence (towns, farms, etc. with buildings).

"Must" there be a civilian contingent at every event? I don't think so. Just as every 1860's living history event need not have "soldiers".

Sometimes civilians add a lot to an otherwise military reenactment. However, to paraphrase "U2", sometimes a reenactment needs civilians like a fish needs a bicycle.

[Wild Rover]

John and Dusty,

Good civilian interaction adds a ton to any event, whether there are 20 participants or 2,000.

I hate to say this, but perhaps the reason the majority, and I said majority, or civilians are not progressing, is due to a lack of a central organized group.

Most Military Reenactors belong to a company, and then, to a slightly lesser degree, to a battalion, and sometimes to umbrella groups. Things to to be more organized due to such, and information flow and control works far better.

Instead of organizing 300 people, you only have to deal with 2-3 in such cases.

Then larger tasks, such as the Perryville LH Village can be accomplished.

Dunno, but makes sense to me,

[Annette Bethke]

I hate to say this, but perhaps the reason the majority, and I said majority, or civilians are not progressing, is due to a lack of a central organized group.


Precisely!! You hit the nail on the head. Civilians, generally, belong to a military unit or an auxiliary of that unit. The few independants must, usually, rely on military companies for events, which will have a military focus.

For the 150th, I think it would be a wonderful contribution to have events that show the civilian homefront. However, this may require to draw on those men who also do military impressions and therefore a strong civilian representation should be had at any meeting to plan events so that the military and civilian events do not take away from the other.

[Hank Trent]

I hate to say this, but perhaps the reason the majority, and I said majority, or civilians are not progressing, is due to a lack of a central organized group.

In my experience, organized groups encourage progression up to whatever level they're at. Beyond that, they discourage progression, because it interferes with the cohesion of the group, makes the leaders look less accurate by comparison, is seen as questioning their authority, splinters attendance as some members do or don't want to attend particular kinds of events, and so forth. It's no different from military organizations that split and split again as some members want to move up the f/m/a/c/p/h spectrum and others don't.

So if most civilians are below the level of the group that's formed, a central group will encourage progression. Beyond that level, progression will be stifled. In this case, I'm defining progression as increased overall historical accuracy during events.

So I think the result will just depend on what the central organized group is like, compared to the level of most of the civilians that it attracts. If most civilians are below the level of the group, it will certainly tend to increase the accuracy of the members, overall. That's just my opinion of course; others will surely disagree.

What I'm curious about, though, is what level of accuracy do the civilians who will attend big 150th events want, really? I'm seeing events like September Storm and At High Tide as following the classic military mainstream format: armies in static camps regardless of the historic scenario, the usual "sutler row" nearby for both to access, scheduled battles with everything resetting in between, and minimal army discipline (no pickets overnight, no passes required, etc.). In tandem with that is the typical mainstream civilian model: people camped in wall tents with centralized activities featuring lectures, dances, "sutler row" shopping, modern socializing interspersed with short historic scenarios, and minimal period interaction with period military activities. I realize of course that various groups did carpe eventums and adjuncts, but I'm speaking about what the event as a whole offered.

The civilians at September Storm seemed happier with their event than the civilians at At High Tide. Is that true? I attended both as military, so didn't really get a good feel for the civilian reaction.

If it's true, is the September Storm model the level of success that we're looking for? Because it seemed to me designed to include civilians who like attending events with their military groups or military husband/boyfriend and who are comfortable with the mainstream model. If that's part of the purpose of having civilians connected with 150th military events, I'm not sure how much one can progress in accuracy without alienating them. For that matter, how far can one progress with the military, without alienating them? I'm not really picturing any large event (1000+ soldiers) leaving the mainstream model far behind, with hobby numbers as they currently are.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[Pvt Schnapps]

I find myself in the weird position of agreeing with the last several posters, even when they appear to disagree with each other.

The challenges presented by civilians parallel those presented by the military. The problem gets to the issue of balance and threshholds.

In my experience of events, you can obtain a high level of individual material culture, a modicum of first person, and a minimum of headaches with standards, when you deal with people you know in smaller scenarios -- e.g., the picket post, the two- or three-company battalion, the foraging party and local citizens.

But if you're shooting for a battle reenactment, with several credible manuever units on a side and combined arms, you start balancing your goals with the resources available. At the Winchester meeting, someone mentioned a threshhold of about 500 -- below that, you have very few problems getting people to work and play well according to reasonable standards. You also don't have too many civilians.

Above that, the challenges multiply, but it's worth trying if one has a reasonable chance of getting a good battle experience, growing the hobby, and achieving whatever other goals you set for the event.

At September Storm (I don't know about "At High Tide" -- I was kinda busy that weekend -- but I think it was basically the same), we benefited some from the fact that the potentially more problematical military units attending knew they were going to a different kind of event and had largely prepared themselves. But we still had a lot of civilians who could have been better served -- and could have better served the event -- if we'd done more work on an appropriate scenario. And I'd like to think we can try that in the upcoming cycle.

The cycle -- so far -- envisions one "fusion" and one "campaign" event a year as a rough goal. The latter shouldn't be an issue -- the requirement for movement will in itself eliminate the least convincing military and civilian impressions. The former will probably only present challenges for the bigger 150s.

How can such events handle civilians? I'm not sure -- I hope I'm not the one who has to figure it out. But I wouldn't mind working with others on the problem. I also know that the citizens of Sharpsburg and Gettysburg did not automatically dematerialize on the approach of the hostile armies, so I think history may give us something to work with.

Hank, I'm not sure if groups necessarily impose their own level. I think I've seen a few, military and civilian, that collectively move forward. They move more slowly than the most authentic members in the hobby, but I truly believe that there are many many more candidates for progression than whoever makes this year's "us" list. That said, I fully acknowledge that your own personal standards will present, for most of us, ideals rather than goals we can quickly or easily achieve.

Sorry to go on... :)