4th NY picture question

[Matt Caldwell]

From the LOC, I have a few questions about this image. I dont have the background on NY units, so thoes of you who know, please help me out. The question is in regard to the cartridge box(s). As it appears, nearly all of the soldiers in this image have 2 boxes attached to their belts. Now, I looked at the rifles and they all appear to be '42's. Does anyone know the sreasoning for this?

Also, I have attached a picture of a young fellow who is either wearing his cap backwards or the brim has come un attached. The reason I wonder the latter is that there appears to be brass attached to the frontward (facing) side.

Also, I have attached an image of another fellow who appears to be wearing a rain cover on his cap. he appears to be the only one. I just thought that was neat.

Docc.

[Manassas, Va. Men of Co. C, 41st New York Infantry].

O'Sullivan, Timothy H., 1840-1882, photographer.


CREATED/PUBLISHED
1862 July.

SUMMARY
Photograph from the main eastern theater of the war, Bull Run, 2nd Battle of, Va., 1862, July-August 1862.

NOTES
Reference: Civil War photographs, 1861-1865 / compiled by Hirst D. Milhollen and Donald H. Mugridge, Washington, D.C. : Library of Congress, 1977. No. 0102

Title from Milhollen and Mugridge.

[RyanBWeddle]

http://www.dmna.state.ny.us/historic/reghist/civil/infantry/41stInf/41stInfMain.htm

Here is some unit info on the 41st NY aka The Dekalb Reg't., majority of the Regiment made up from German imigrants here in New York City...

Those double cartridge boxes are perplexing... They are smaller than regulation size and are affixed to the belt fronts...The majority also has a large rectangular shaped belt buckle...

The only educated guess is that they are surplus boxes left over from their initial issuance upon mustering in. This Regiment was supplied by the Union Defence Committee of New York (a committee of influential Manhattan businessmen whom equiped volunteer units in early-mid 1861, alleviating the burden of war costs, until the State and Federal governments could take over that responsibility) and would have been supplied by a contractor in 1861. These variant boxes sure do not jive with our notions of accoutrements for M1842 muskets... More likely than not they are a derivation of a European accoutrements sets, which makes sense with their 'German' unit affiliation....

All that I can guess is that they are remnants of this earlier issuance, possibly from an earlier issue of muskets/rifles...

If anyone cares to learn, I am sure that this article will answer all the questions:

Field, Ron, and Roger Sturcke.
"41st New York Volunteer Infantry Regiment (DeKalb Regiment, or 2nd Yaeger Regiment) 1861-1865."
Military Collector and Historian, 39 (Summer 1987), p. 77.
[Military Uniforms in America Plate 606]

I've given a satisfactory, educated answer w/documentation, sooooo - let the conjecture begin!

[hireddutchcutthroat]

I does look to me like that fatigue cap is missing its peak. And both the first Sgt and the other fellow both appear to be wearing rain covers. A couple of nice pipes are in evidence as well.

Thanks for posting that great pict!

[NY Pvt]

I think that this picture may have fallen pray to the mislabeling that took place at the LOC. Look to the right of the picture there is a guy a ways back that is blurry. However, you can tell he is wearing a great coat with the top buttons buttoned. Now why would anyone in Virginia in July or August 1862 when the picture was suppose to be taken be wearing a greatcoat? Maybe it was taken a few months earlier before Pope’s campaign. Does this make sense? What do you all think?

[paulcalloway]

Matt - I'd guess that might be a Militia style or National Guard issue - 20 in each box perhaps? Anyone have Paul Johnson's book handy?

[GBaylor]

Is it possible that the boxes in question are really fuse pouches for a Heavy Artillery Unit? After all, they are in a fixed position.

John Sweeney

[ThehosGendar]

I think that this picture may have fallen pray to the mislabeling that took place at the LOC.

It's not any fault or lack of research on the LOC's part for why an image may be mislabeled. They're using the original captions and titles.

If something is grossly mislabeled, there is an online form that you can fill out to let them know: http://lcweb.loc.gov/rr/print/civilwarform.php

However, it is interesting to see that soldier in the greatcoat, as well as a few men wearing scarves.

http://www.3nj.org/scarf.jpg

The few trees in the background are too far and out of focus to determined whether or not they've got leaves on them, so there's nothing else in the image to make a conclusive determination as to the time of year that the image was taken which would contradict that in the original title.

[Robert Braun]

This is a company of the 41st New York.

Supposedly, the cartridge boxes were European imports. I THINK I have more info on these... which I will need to dig out.

Regards, Bob.

[Tom Craig]

Another interesting detail is the amount of men visable wearing boots as opposed to shoes. The hat minus the brim is very interesting to me. It would make sense if these guys were European as a brimless hat seems to be more common "over the pond".

Great images, and great blowups with really cool detail!

Take care,
Tom Craig

[hireddutchcutthroat]

This is a company of the 41st New York.

Supposedly, the cartridge boxes were European imports. I THINK I have more info on these... which I will need to dig out.

Regards, Bob.


Bob

Im thinking a German state (Prussia) or maybe France (?). Those countries as well as Belgium and Sweden used a similar style in the post war years. Im stummped! :baring_te

[justthemiller]

Hello All,

I always thought that the fellows in the picture were wearing some sort of cavalry carbine boxes in leiu of the one cartridge box. But anyway, the Prussian army of the period had earlier rid themselves of the larger "Patronentasche" in favor of two smaller ones carried on the belt. And of course most of the smaller German states followed the example as set by the Prussians. As the 41st had significant number of Germans in the ranks (with many of them having previously served in one of the German state armies of the period) it is not surprising that they would use the same arrangement of carrying rounds as they did back in the heimatland. Also, it is also not surprising to see many of them wearing "stiefel" or boots as that is what they wore when serving in whatever German state army they were in back in the day.

[Vuhginyuh]

Is it component(s) of some of that weird/experimental ca 1855 Rifleman's gear. The same stuff that had the ornate sabertache for the officer's(and others) and the integral knapsacks, haversacks etc?

[Jarnagin]

Could this be one of the French light infantry cartridge box? There are several styles of these boxes, and none of the originals I have seen were anywhere close to the same. The way the ear is shaped makes me think it could be this type of box.

David Jarnagin

[tmattimore]

The Union Defence Committie as one of its first acts sent an agent to europe with $250,000 to buy stuff. In 61 to 62 They issued Hall rifles, Enfeilds , Musketoons and Sharps to various units. I have Volume one of the report but volume two details actual purchases and recipts. They also outfitted privateers including the Quaker City, purchased some six batteries of artillery, including early bronze rifle converted 6 lbs.(James?) and made a nusiance of them selves to Scott and Cameron. They also supplied arms to some Kentucky units and valuable inttelegence to the navy, Helped sieze goods being manufactured in New York for the south.

[RyanBWeddle]

In Troiani's Regiments and Uniforms, he devotes two plates to the two different styles of uniforms that 41st NY wore in 1861.

The majority of the regiment wore a green uniform coat w/red facings, etc.
and at least one company wore a zouave style uniform.

Michael McAfee who wrote the text for the plates quotes from period Manhattan newspapers that the regiment had it's knapsacks and equipments patterned after Prussian style, etc., etc.

So if we work in the comments from James Miller on period German states, universal conscription, etc. and the likelihood that these are either imported boxes from a german state OR (more likely) boxes made in New York by a contractor for the regiment via the Union Defence Committee.

And, that this photo is most likely their 2nd or 3rd issuance of clothing/equipage (i.e. summer 1862) as evidenced by their New York jackets, dark blue trowsers, etc. etc. Evident that they had been recently issued from NY state and they are holding remanants of their 1861 equipage as well (boxes)...

The un-visored cap is just an oddity in my book; could be a forage cap without it's bill for some reason, or it could be something else... no one can say at this point . . .

[John of the Skulkers Mess]

The un-visored cap is just an oddity in my book; could be a forage cap without it's bill for some reason, or it could be something else... no one can say at this point . . .


- - - - -


Maybe its on backward.


john pillers
TSM

[TJ Markert]

While doing some cartridge box research at the NJ National Guard Museum, I recall seeing many cartridge boxes similar to those pictured.They were post Civil War issue and used with the trapdoor conversion rifles. I have other pictures of the local malitia marching off to the Spanish American War in uniforms and equipment that closely resembles CW era equipment such as uniforms, kepis and backpacks. Could the year of the photo be misrepresented? If someone could zero in on and identify the rifles that are stacked, it could help answer the question.

TJ Markert

[hireddutchcutthroat]

While doing some cartridge box research at the NJ National Guard Museum, I recall seeing many cartridge boxes similar to those pictured.They were post Civil War issue and used with the trapdoor conversion rifles. I have other pictures of the local malitia marching off to the Spanish American War in uniforms and equipment that closely resembles CW era equipment such as uniforms, kepis and backpacks. Could the year of the photo be misrepresented? If someone could zero in on and identify the rifles that are stacked, it could help answer the question.

TJ Markert

I think you are talking about McKeever boxes. No this is without a doubt a Civil War image.

[pipthelimey]

Matt - I'd guess that might be a Militia style or National Guard issue - 20 in each box perhaps? Anyone have Paul Johnson's book handy?

Wasn't the 1855 Rifleman's Belt part of a load-bearing system? I seem to remember that it balanced the gear better. Perhaps the system had two smaller cartridge boxes and these men were issued surplus leather goods. I know that the "chest straps" on Federal double bags were originally designed to go with the the 1855 rifleman's belt. That's why there are two of the dang things.

Andrew Jerram

[markj]

Greetings,

Here's an idle thought: Maybe the pipe-smoker with two pouches was using one of them to store something else; perhaps, say, tobacco for his chin-dangler?

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[RyanBWeddle]

In Troiani's Regiments and Uniforms, he devotes two plates to the two different styles of uniforms that 41st NY wore in 1861.

The majority of the regiment wore a green uniform coat w/red facings, etc.
and at least one company wore a zouave style uniform.

Michael McAfee who wrote the text for the plates quotes from period Manhattan newspapers that the regiment had it's knapsacks and equipments patterned after Prussian style, etc., etc.

So if we work in the comments from James Miller on period German states, universal conscription, etc. and the likelihood that these are either imported boxes from a german state OR (more likely) boxes made in New York by a contractor for the regiment via the Union Defence Committee.

And, that this photo is most likely their 2nd or 3rd issuance of clothing/equipage (i.e. summer 1862) as evidenced by their New York jackets, dark blue trowsers, etc. etc. Evident that they had been recently issued from NY state and they are holding remanants of their 1861 equipage as well (boxes)...

The un-visored cap is just an oddity in my book; could be a forage cap without it's bill for some reason, or it could be something else... no one can say at this point . . .


Recently while doing some research at the NYHS I came across some requisition forms for this regiment which pertain to the original discussion. The regiment contracted with George Schmolze (a merchant) for their uniforms and equipage. I have transcribed the original requisitions forms here:

George Schmolze
bill dated June 18, 1861

Ordance
furnished [to the] DeKalb Regiment, Col. L. von Gilsa

now 41st Regiment New York Vols.

1861 1046 Body belts & clasps @ 0.45 $470.70
June 18 1046 catridge boxes} @ 2.25 $2353.50
1046 cap puches
$2824.20



__________________________


George Schmolze
bill dated June 18, 1861

Outfits & Equipments
furnished [to the] DeKalb Regiment, Col. L. von Gilsa

now 41st Regiment New York Vols.

1861 1046 Uniforms (coat & pants) @ 9.70 $10146.20
June 18 1046 Overcoats @ 6.80 7112.80
1046 caps @ 0.65 679.90
1046 Letters for do. @ 0.12ct 130.75
2092 Flannel undershirts @ 0.80 1673.60
2092 pair woolen half hose @0.13 271.96
1046 knapsacks @2.50 2615.00
1046 canteens, cloth covered w/ straps @.45 470.70
1046 tin kettles and tin cups @0.25 261.50
1046 Haversacks @0.50 523.00
$23885.41

[GreencoatCross]

I can't add to the equipment discussion, but here is an image that was found in a USSS photo album last year. The particular album, the property of Warren Fletcher, a NH Sharpshooter in the 2nd Regiment, was bought on eBay and the modern owner subsequently broke up the full album and sold each CDV to whomever had the cash.

One of the photos was of Richard Fletcher, Warren's brother and a member of the 5th N.H. Vols. His cap has no visor! If you look close you'll see that the cap has a chinstrap as well as company letter and corps badge. The cap does appear to be intact all around except for the visor. I cannot say for certain what is happening with his cap but it's got to be issued that way or else he removed the visor himself. Some caps were made this way: don't forget about the "Butterflies," that gaudy NJ regiment of cavalry. Aside from orange-lined talmas and braided Hussar jackets they wore visorless forage caps.

Brian White
Randolph Mess, USSS
Slackerz Saloon Mess, GHTI

[JustRob]

What I like most of all in this photo are the NY State Coats. I've never seen that many of them together in one picture before. They do look great.

[RyanBWeddle]

http://www.dmna.state.ny.us/historic/reghist/civil/infantry/41stInf/41stInfHistSketch.htm

http://www.dmna.state.ny.us/historic/reghist/civil/infantry/41stInf/41stInfMain.htm#photos

http://www.dmna.state.ny.us/historic/btlflags/infantry/41stInfMarker.htm

Here are three links full of great info on the background and history of this Reg't. for those who care to peruse.